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Originally Posted by Starbuck
Originally Posted by Spotshooter
I don’t care about winning an argument… I only shared an observation that I validated and tried to explain why the best I could. I did semi-pro photography, and I’m got a half decent eye so I can tell you that at least with a couple scope makers at a 1k yard bench rest matches where I compared the FFP & SFP scopes of like types last year … I could see more crisply with the SFP.

Sorry if that sounds cold but I could give a hoot if you don’t believe me… Go check for yourself. Of course I’m talking about scopes that are WELL over a grand… so for cheaper models I really have no Idea. Not everyone rocks a scope that costs a couple grand, not to mention multiple ones…
You darn near have to quit hunting to afford stepping into serious LR shooting.

Smartest thing a man can do in life is walk away from guys that “like to argue”.., who are all about “winning.”
I’d remarry a boss chic if I liked that kind of BS. … NAH

Cheers ! (Yes that was Sarcasm for those on their first cup of coffee)

SS:

Your initial post in this thread definitively stated that the phenomenon you're describing obscures targets at the yardages specified by the OP to the extent that it should be the overriding factor in reticle plane decisions. I don't think Jordan and others, including me, who haven't noticed obfuscating aberrations inherent to FFP reticles to the extent that you described are "arguing for the sake of arguing" by trying to gather more information.

Yup. I have no desire to argue for argument’s sake, but my training and experience is as a quantum physicist and optical engineer (I was sandbagging a bit before, but the part I said about not working for a scope manufacturer is true), and I can see no reason for universal optical superiority to the SFP design. That doesn’t mean that a reason does not exist, but I am simply trying to sort fact from anecdote.


Originally Posted by drop_point
All the NXS (except the 3.5-15x50 F1 model) are SFP and so is the competition. They have different grade glass and magnification. Apples and oranges.
And yup.

When you dig a little deeper, it is plain to see that any perceived differences could be due to a number of variables that are not controlled if comparing scopes of completely different model lines.

I have owned and spent a lot of time looking through both SFP and FFP scopes, and plenty of each, that cost over - some well over - $1000, at LR, and have not noticed any general trend in image quality that can be attributed to SFP versus FFP design. I’m not claiming that there is no difference, just that I can’t see a reason for one to exist, nor have I observed one in competitive, recreational, and hunting contexts.

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Originally Posted by Spotshooter
I was comparing nightforce competitions to NXS …. Are high magnification in hard conditions multiple times.

Like I said… a lot is in the maker’s build

I could resolves things much better in the competition…. But maybe one shouldn’t bring a tactical FFP scope to a Benchrest match…

Just saying ..


- for your point Starbuck
GLASS and COATINGS ARE EVERYTHING.. when it comes to clarity… … So what you guys are really discussing is does putting the cross hairs up front or in the back of a moving tube make building a optical system harder or easier (all relative terms).

I said harder because it puts more critical components into a smaller moving space so it tightens the requirements for the build.

BUT - engineering (I am one) is what it is… some groups are run by Engineers some are run by accountants…. And if you actually have experience in the corporate world you know the Marketing groups run both of you ….

So results will vary.. Go sit behind the scopes in real world conditions and all the BS goes away…


MY POINT - Even if it’s more challenging to build a FFP clarity wise - that doesn’t mean people don’t or won’t…

Go test what’s on the market with your own eyes … Experience is king.. Engineering - Seriously I am one and the right thing doesn’t always happen.

I have been critically testing and sitting behind optics with my own eyes for my own uses in real world conditions for 20+ years. I've owned a lot of scopes from throughout the cost and reticle spectrum, and I've looked through many more. I have yet to look through a FFP scope from any price range and found image or reticle aberration so significant that it would've impacted the ultimate utility of the scope. Likewise, I have yet to notice a correlation between reticle position and optical quality in general.

Currently, I only have 1 set of scopes of the same model wherein 1 is SFP and the other is FFP. They are SWFA 3-15's. I just had them out, and to my eyes, the optical quality of the FFP is better at all X and across all portions of the image. The FFP is newer by 5 years or more. Recently I was comparing a set of NX8's - one was SFP, the other was FFP. I didn't notice any optical difference between the two, but I wasn't looking specifically for it, either. I'll add that I don't really look at many SFP scopes these days as I prefer FFP for most uses, and I already own enough SFP scopes to cover my uses.

As stated by Jordan, that's not to say that what you're describing doesn't exist to some extent, just that in substantive context, I haven't noticed it. By extension, I am skeptical that it commonly exists to the extent that reticle position selection should be summarily based upon it; there's many other factors to consider.

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Originally Posted by Spotshooter
Here is why -

When the cross hair is in the back the light path is directly centered of the lens where the cross hairs are and the least amount of lens distortion is…

With FFP you are moving the cross hair through the path of the light to bend it…. Rut-Roo..
So the path correction is using not exactly center portion of the lense to bend it back to focus the light back to the center or the second rear plane.

Just like any other lens if it’s NOT passing directly through the center you get some aberrations

I had a national BR champ tell me that, and looked for it glass in my FFP PRS BR rig vs. a SFP model of the same type..
…. and dang it .. he was right.

It’s a TINY difference - but under pressure at 1k yards with mirage or clouds and low light - every little bit comes in to play

I don't want to be nasty, but this "explanation" was nothing but a word salad. It's complete nonsense.

'Nuff said, as the saying goes.

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Quote
I don't want to be nasty, but this "explanation" was nothing but a word salad. It's complete nonsense.

'Nuff said, as the saying goes.
Considering an ffp Scope has fewer lenses, it’s only obvious that the reverse of his statement would be true. Some guys will argue that water is dry though.

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Originally Posted by qwk
Quote
I don't want to be nasty, but this "explanation" was nothing but a word salad. It's complete nonsense.

'Nuff said, as the saying goes.
Considering an ffp Scope has fewer lenses, it’s only obvious that the reverse of his statement would be true. Some guys will argue that water is dry though.
Where did you get the idea that an FFP has fewer lenses than the equivalent SFP?

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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
I have no desire to argue for argument’s sake

WOW.....I thought that is exactly what you do confused ?????

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Originally Posted by FTR_Shooter
Where did you get the idea that an FFP has fewer lenses than the equivalent SFP?
It’s not some huge secret. For claiming to shoot FTR, you don’t really know much. BTW any reputable scope company will let you take a tour, if you want to see for yourself.

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Originally Posted by boatanchor
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
I have no desire to argue for argument’s sake

WOW.....I thought that is exactly what you do confused ?????
Nope. I'm not a lawyer. grin It just so happens that I like facts and the pursuit of truth, and sometimes that leads to discussion and debate.

Ironically, your comment serves no purpose, except to argue.

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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by boatanchor
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
I have no desire to argue for argument’s sake

WOW.....I thought that is exactly what you do confused ?????
Nope. I'm not a lawyer. grin It just so happens that I like facts and the pursuit of truth, and sometimes that leads to discussion and debate.

Ironically, your comment serves no purpose, except to argue.

Well, technically and grammatically, you are describing hypocrisy which many mistakenly call irony.

Another Kanuck made a whole song about it and while a catchy tune it confused many of the Gen Xrs.

Isn't that ironic, don't ya think? laugh

All that I much prefer hunting scopes be 2ndFP.


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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
The upside to a well-designed FFP reticle is that there is no downside. smile


Specific examples please

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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by boatanchor
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
I have no desire to argue for argument’s sake

WOW.....I thought that is exactly what you do confused ?????
Nope. I'm not a lawyer. grin It just so happens that I like facts and the pursuit of truth, and sometimes that leads to discussion and debate.

Ironically, your comment serves no purpose, except to argue.

Well, technically and grammatically, you are describing hypocrisy which many mistakenly call irony.

Another Kanuck made a whole song about it and while a catchy tune it confused many of the Gen Xrs.

Isn't that ironic, don't ya think? laugh

All that I much prefer hunting scopes be 2ndFP.
Hypocrisy can be ironic at times. wink

There's no accounting for taste. We've been down this road before, and I am more than happy to clear the SFP lane and leave it to you if it means more FFP scopes for me. grin

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Originally Posted by MrWilson
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
The upside to a well-designed FFP reticle is that there is no downside. smile


Specific examples please
Discussing the merits of the FFP design can be made into a rather long conversation. A list of scope models is an even longer conversation. Of what specifically are you asking for examples?

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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by MrWilson
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
The upside to a well-designed FFP reticle is that there is no downside. smile


Specific examples please
Discussing the merits of the FFP design can be made into a rather long conversation. A list of scope models is an even longer conversation. Of what specifically are you asking for examples?

Possibly up close fast shooting on moving targets?

Don't try this at home with FFP.


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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
All that I much prefer hunting scopes be 2ndFP.


Why’s that?



Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Possibly up close fast shooting on moving targets?

Don't try this at home with FFP.


What’s the difference in this instance?


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I would love to see picture examples of "good" FFP reticles at the lowest power of a scope that would be useful hunting at close range in cover, without relying on illumination.

I think I could design one, but most scope makers seem incapable of doing so, that is the reason I prefer SFP for hunting.

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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by MrWilson
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
The upside to a well-designed FFP reticle is that there is no downside. smile


Specific examples please
Discussing the merits of the FFP design can be made into a rather long conversation. A list of scope models is an even longer conversation. Of what specifically are you asking for examples?

Possibly up close fast shooting on moving targets?

Don't try this at home with FFP.
Looks fun!

Possibly, although I'm pretty sure this reticle would do just fine at that game. Similar to a red-dot sight on low magnification, with angular hashmarks visible on high magnification.

https://destinationtactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/1308535.jpg

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Originally Posted by WYcoyote
I would love to see picture examples of "good" FFP reticles at the lowest power of a scope that would be useful hunting at close range in cover, without relying on illumination.

I think I could design one, but most scope makers seem incapable of doing so, that is the reason I prefer SFP for hunting.
Yes, it seems to have been a bit of a process getting the manufacturers to design FFP reticles that are useful on low magnification and also on high. When done properly, however, the benefits are many.

Edit: Forgot to include a few examples of FFP reticles that are useful in cover at close range when on low magnification:

https://www.bushnell.com/dw/image/v...Reticle.jpg?sw=800&sh=800&sm=fit

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]


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Originally Posted by rcamuglia
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
All that I much prefer hunting scopes be 2ndFP.
Why’s that?
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Possibly up close fast shooting on moving targets?

Don't try this at home with FFP.
What’s the difference in this instance?

I like the reticle to appear the same to my eye in all situations.

2ndFP reticles can be sized for optimal visual acuity in all zoom ranges. Just have to suffer the changes in subtension on the target image.

When one is using top end magnification of 15X or maybe 18X then most precision field shots will be dialed to max magnification.

If I can just dial the zoom to the max stop and shoot under hunting conditions then 2ndFP rules.

If the scope has more Xs than I can always use in in normal LR hunting shots then FirstFP is a better choice but I don't hunt with scopes over 18X.

You have done very well with more top end magnification and that is where FirstFP shines.

If any one could break flat straight aways clays with a FFP it would be you.


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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Possibly up close fast shooting on moving targets?

Don't try this at home with FFP.
Looks fun!

Possibly, although I'm pretty sure this reticle would do just fine at that game. Similar to a red-dot sight on low magnification, with angular hashmarks visible on high magnification.

https://destinationtactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/1308535.jpg

All it takes is a clay bird thrower and a video camera.

Let's see the video. wink


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Nothing to do with reticles, subtensions, or aberration, but now I'm envisioning JB loading Jagged Little Pill into his CD changer and having a nice sing along session.

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