As a competitor in 100-300 sanctioned tournaments (NBRSA and IBS), I can tell you that the main thing a competitor looks for in a die is one that works with his chamber and brass at the pressure ranges he loads to. You need to be aggressive enough with the sizing so you can effortlessly open the bolt after firing a 70,000+ psi load without disturbing the gun in the bags. We beat the dog snot out of cases so F.L. sizing and bumping the shoulders is what you need to do. When the clock is running, the wind flags are dancing around and there's guns going off on both sides of you...no Interweb nonsense or ridiculous Urban Legends surrounding accuracy is going to save you.
So there's more to the equation that non-competitors think there is.
The most commonly used full length bushing die is the Harrell's. They offer a range of die sizes that size in .0005 increments that will accomodate almost any scenario. I have them for my 30BR in #2, #2.5, #3 and #3.5. I also have and use the Redding Type S F.L. Bushing die (which sizes like the Harrels #2 or 2.5). A few others here have been converted from Redding Body Dies into bushing style dies. The stainless Wilson F.L. bushing dies are excellent, too....couple of those here.
Other dies I've seen on the Win-Place-Show are Redding Competition Series sliding chamber dies, Forsters (with tweaks and work) and the mentioned Wilson F.L. bushing dies. There are quite a few using Bullet Central dies and a fair number that use custom dies done with a sizing reamer that works with the chambering reamer.
At this level of competition, you don't see any Lee Collet dies or Lee dies of any sort. I've never seen anyone sizing necks against a fixed dimension mandrel inside the case neck either. The use of a bushing to adjust neck tension is critical to tuning these guns, especially at the chamber pressures we run them at.
The bottom line is: in real Benchrest competition (where people see the results and your name and score/placing is posted) you use a dies that works for your program to combine accuracy, ease of extraction, repeatability and acceptable case life. What one guy does may not be the other guys approach. But both can win and shoot well when their approach is part of the entire combination.
Good shootin' -Al
Good info, and I appreciate your skills, but I'd much rather be whacking hogs, deer, aoudad, axis, etc than wasting time at any sort of shooting competition.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
Since BR shooting was referenced, I posted facts to clear up obvious misconceptions.
No more, no less. And certainly no recommendations for those techniques to be used in hunting rifles.
I sure don't in mine. -Al
I prep brass the same way for most of my hunting rifles as my match rifles. But then I like to ring out the best accuracy possible. I use Redding Type S Bushing dies with Competition Seaters.
They seem to whack animals and steel well. 😁
Originally Posted by Bristoe
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
I think what we really need to understand is how neck sizing is going to cause you to blow up a rifle. I think Ol Pete's probably the only one who understands it but he's not sharing. LOL.
A good definition of what Cortina is referring to as "neck sizing" would be nice. I think it's subtly revealed in the full context of his presentation, key word "subtle." I take it to mean "no body sizing whatsoever at any time."
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
The most important thing to understand is that most of us are hunters not 1000 benchrest shooters trying to win the world championship. Neck sizing in a rifle with a good barrel will shoot 2" ish groups at 500 yards. If that's not good enouph for hunting distances than you probably better PFLS everytime. Both of the processes work depending on what your doing. If your benchrest shooting PFLS everytime. If your a hunter who is planning a hunt and your going to shoot your critter at 300 yards or less your doing a hell of a lot of extra work if you PFLS everytime to net absolutely NOTHING
Trystan
Last edited by Trystan; 12/05/22.
Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
I'd be surprised if you really knew a damned thing about it. I've read your posts.
Shew me thy ways, O LORD: teach me thy paths. "there are few better cartridges on Earth than the 7 x 57mm Mauser" "the .30 Springfield is light, accurate, penetrating, and has surprising stopping power"
How did this thread turn into a discussion of what benchresters do? A lot of guys shooting benchrest with 30-06? In a sporter-weight rifle? Using Federal Brass?
Weird sort of pissing match going on here.
Well then maybe you can answer these questions. Why would anyone neck size their brass only? What would be their purpose in doing this?
A good definition of what Cortina is referring to as "neck sizing" would be nice. I think it's subtly revealed in the full context of his presentation, key word "subtle." I take it to mean "no body sizing whatsoever at any time."
That is sure what it seems like in those videos of his. What he seems to be calling FL sizing sounds a lot like bumping the shoulder a few thousandths and resizing the neck. What a lot of people would call partial full length sizing.
In at least one of those videos of his where he is at some sort of a match and goes around asking people if they neck size, one of the participants seems confused by what he is asking and spells it out , that he bumps the shoulder and resizes the neck.
Or at least that is what I took out of his videos.
Yup. I think I heard him mention explicitly a bump of 0.002" (or maybe it was 0.003"). I think that is what he's really advocating. So, when he says "neck size" I can only take that to mean sizing the neck ONLY. I wish he'd have been a little more clear, then maybe he wouldn't have a bunch of people "pissed off at him."
Definitions matter...and we're a little short of them.
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
Yup. I think I heard him mention explicitly a bump of 0.002" (or maybe it was 0.003"). I think that is what he's really advocating. So, when he says "neck size" I can only take that to mean sizing the neck ONLY. I wish he'd have been a little more clear, then maybe he wouldn't have a bunch of people "pissed off at him."
Definitions matter...and we're a little short of them.
Bushing dies also aren't the best if there's a lot of sizing to do.
Very true. Likewise if the case necks show much wall variation.
Bushing dies are designed for use with necks that are within .001-.0015 variation. If the necks very much more than that, the bushing can induce about double the run out of the neck wall variation. By design, most generally available bushing dies don't size the entire length of the case neck...leaving the bottom 1/16" or so unsized to allow the case to better center itself in the chamber. Sometimes this helps, sometimes not.
My preference in hunting style stuff is a standard Redding full length die with a carbide expander ball fitted. At times, I've refitted them with an expander stem that puts the expander higher up so the case is better supported when the neck goes through the expander.
Addressing the expander, adding a rubber flat washer between the die lock ring and the top of the press, actually measuring how much the shoulder is being pushed back and using a quality shell holder (Redding) solves most issues. Each die set here has it's own shell holder in it and it stays with that die set.
Just got a half dozen Hornady shell holders and they are truly awful for straightness and consistent thickness.
Good shootin'. -Al
Originally Posted by Al_Nyhus
On inner case necks, they should never be squeaky clean. Certain tumbling methods and cleaners are particularly bad in that respect.
On fired cases, the powder residue left in the case neck is all they need for seating. If you feel like you have to do something, a quick pass with a nylon brush and you're done.
For lubing the inner necks for sizing when using an expander... lots of stuff works well. You want to reduce the friction as much as possible so the expander doesn't pull the neck out of alignment with case as it passes up through the neck and expands it.
With a standard F.L or N.S. die, the best approach is to not excessively reduce the neck diameter in the first place.
Good shootin' -Al
Given the first bolded sentence, are you honing the die necks to achieve the second bolded sentence, or some other means? Also, does it matter how many times a case has been fired when it comes to setting up a die for desired shoulder push back? I've always taken measurements using once fired brass. Thank you.
How did this thread turn into a discussion of what benchresters do? A lot of guys shooting benchrest with 30-06? In a sporter-weight rifle? Using Federal Brass?
Weird sort of pissing match going on here.
Well then maybe you can answer these questions. Why would anyone neck size their brass only? What would be their purpose in doing this?
I'll give you an example. I have a 30-06 I use for deer and pigs, and sometimes for plinking steel at the range. The loads I use are mild by modern standards, consider them "Garand appropriate" with 150/155 and 165/168 grain bullets. With such loads in my rifle the brass doesn't iron itself hard into the chamber. The extraction is super easy, and fired cases rechamber easily as well. For this combination I routinely use a Lee collet die to size the brass. It's quick, needs no case lube to apply and remove, and the cases assemble into straight cartridges. Accuracy is very good too.
Yup. I think I heard him mention explicitly a bump of 0.002" (or maybe it was 0.003"). I think that is what he's really advocating. So, when he says "neck size" I can only take that to mean sizing the neck ONLY. I wish he'd have been a little more clear, then maybe he wouldn't have a bunch of people "pissed off at him."
Definitions matter...and we're a little short of them.
Found this. Start watching at 22 minutes.
Excellent. That clarifies things nicely...and confirms what I was saying (or at least what I was TRYING to say ).
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
Can't believe this thread is still going on. Some great info in some of the posts.
One thing I would suggest is that if you insist on neck sizing only, be sure to keep your locking lugs well greased. And don't be too surprised if you eventually end up with clickers even after FL resizing.
-Al
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