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I've been wanting to cast some softnoses for forever and never taken the time to do it. I'm likely upgrading casting pots after Christmas (to an RCBS) and thought I could run my WW alloy in it, and some lead sheet (possibly adding 1% tin) in my old Lee. In lighter caliber and loads, the bases would be the WW alloy, heat treated for the heavier stuff for the sake of accuracy and penetration.

I've re-read Ross Seyfreid's articles on the subject, and plan on using the 2-pot, 2-dipper method.

Planning on trying it in my .45-70, muzzleloader, .45 Colt, .38 Special, and even my .45 1911's and Sig P365 (if the soft noses will survive the trip up the feed ramp).

My question is; what velocity will the soft alloy expand down to (on hide and flesh)? I can run 350's in the .45-70 way faster than I can stand to shoot them, so I'm not worried there. My 270SAA mold has optional hollow point pins, so no expansion issues there. But, say, a .38 Special with a Lee 158 RF at 850fps, will I see any expansion at 25-50 yards? 230's out of a .45ACP at 900fps?

I suppose I'm asking (and I get that there are many variables), what is the optimum velocity to run cast soft noses (with no hollow point) out of a pistol before you are better off with straight WW or heat treated WW alloy?

Thanks!!!

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Going no hollow point with frontal area, the smaller the frontal area, the faster it will need driven to expand.

If not hollow pointed, I do not expect any expansion out of 45ACP and definitely not from a RN 38. Hollow pointed they work much better.
Remember, swaged bullets exist for these rounds even in flat nose shapes and they do not expand at all unless contacting really hard material, something flesh really is not.

For non hollow pointed flat nose 45s, 1100 fps impact speed is where they start to mash; perfect for the big 45/70 and muzzleloader and hot 45s.

Having used the 45/70 with a 340 lbt softnosed from a 1895 Marlin and a 300 LBT wfn 44 Mag softnosed in a Marlin 1894 on 4 deer, they expand, knock em flat with lengthwise exiting on two of them. The others easily exited with broadside shots.
Generally the nose will blow off somewhere on a lengthwise shot, just like a Partition.

Its interesting you asked about this. A friend wanted to try some of my 250 softnosed 35 Whelen loads. They shot better than his 225 XLCs he used last year. He shot a deer Saturday with it with a front quartering shot tha exited the left rear him.

Granted those clock 2,500 and the impact speed is up there, but boy they sure work! Its hanging in the meat shed as we type.

Once we start cutting, maybe I can post up some post mortems.

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I considered the dual-cast idea a long time before I came to the conclusion that it's just moot for me. The plan wasn't to create expanding handgun bullets, though, but to create expanding rifle bullets. Then, after much testing and several animals killed, I realized that my preferred alloys pushed at the proper speed already act like jacketed bullets, with the front fragmenting on impact and the rear riveting and driving on. The couple I recovered demonstrated this perfectly.

It's more about picking an alloy that is accurate at the speed where it will deform as desired at a given range.

In my opinion, if I want expansion at pedestrian handgun speeds, I should be loading hollow points with a pretty soft alloy.


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I cast all my pistol and rifle bullets either 20:1 or 30:1 alloy, no antimony nor any linotype. I don't mess with soft nosing because I powdercoat them all. Nary an issue with leading or accuracy. Harder alloys aren't causing nor preventing any problems. I have a box of linotype that has not lost a single piece from it and I bought it in 2014, when I started to PC my bullets.

I also agree with the information the other two above me posted.


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Thanks for the replies gentlemen!

I’ll likely run a 350 Ranch Dog in the .45-70. No issues there.

My MP 270-SAA has hollow point pins (Ruger Bisley, Henry Lever, & muzzleloader).

I actually forgot I do have a MP 230CM with pins that I never messed with much, but is a very viable option for a .45 ACP.

Now, for a new .38 mold…….

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The concept behind the heat treated base, softnosed bullet is to extend the range of expansion down and increase the velocity potential.
It also allows for a more classic mushroom, something antimonial alloys only exhibit with lower impact speeds with minimal antimony present. They generally powder down and shear as impact speed exceed its ability to hold shape.

Straight wheelweights do very well if not pushed beyond 2200 in most calibers. At handgun impacts its generally too hard.

If fitted correctly, I've used the softnoses at 2,900 fps. muzzle velocity, something difficult to do with straight wheelweight metal. Adding tin for the nose helps when impact speeds are this high.

The H&G 51 is a good 38/357 bullet that fits all guns so chambered.

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Lyman used to make a two-part bullet mold for this. I've got one. It is actually two separate molds. One is for the tip and the other is for the base. Mine is for a .32 caliber rifle. I've never messed with it.

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There was a time when I lusted after one of those two piece Lyman molds, but never made good on it. I'll bet an unused one would command a premium these days, but as a novelty only because time has proven the fallacy of the idea.


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Straight wheelweights do very well if not pushed beyond 2200 in most calibers. At handgun impacts its generally too hard.

I would add, there is very little left to gain over 2200 with Cast in a Rifle for hunting. In a handgun, a FN wheel weight bullet of the old wheel weight variety, is a perfect killer at normal speeds even though it rarely expands as noted above. If you want expansion, then go softer and focus on Fit.
Lastly; I have seen far more problems with too hard than too soft when it comes hunting cast bullets considering both accuracy and terminal effects.
Fit is King and enough Lube is Queen. Powder Coat has put the Queen's realm within the reach of everyone. If your fit is right, Powder coat solves all the rest of the trip down the barrel problems.

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It didn't take me long to lose interest in casting softnoses. After a long difficult learning process I ended with a darn good looking gas checked 311299 with a softnose. But driving it hard, 2,300 in a '95 Winchester lever .30 Army...it all went south on target. I think the Bhn 8 nose was slumping off. Going back to a Bhn 15 for the whole bullet...bingo, great accuracy. I just gave up then, went to a wide meplat 200 gr at 2100 and it thumped deer about the same as jacketed without expansion.


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Originally Posted by flintlocke
It didn't take me long to lose interest in casting softnoses. After a long difficult learning process I ended with a darn good looking gas checked 311299 with a softnose. But driving it hard, 2,300 in a '95 Winchester lever .30 Army...it all went south on target. I think the Bhn 8 nose was slumping off. Going back to a Bhn 15 for the whole bullet...bingo, great accuracy. I just gave up then, went to a wide meplat 200 gr at 2100 and it thumped deer about the same as jacketed without expansion.
It was earlier in my casting journey that I wanted to try casting softnoses, using the Lee version of the 311299. I tried shooting them soft, around 10 Bn, and accuracy was so-so at velocities I wanted to shoot, which were 1500-1600 fps. Good enough for hunting, but I wasn't happy. Badgered out the mold to increase the diameter of the bore-rider portion, tried different alloys and powders, considered the two-pot solution with one hard and one soft.

After increasing the nose diameter a bit, and running quenched ww, the nose was .301", and they became accurate with every powder charge. I settled on 30gr IMR 4198, because it produced just over 2k fps, and because my groups were literally a ragged hole at 100 yards. It was an eye-opener for me, because that rifle had never shot anywhere near that well before. Then I did some medium testing to 150 yards, and found the bullet performed admirably, in both soft and hard stuff. Lost a portion of the nose, riveted, and penetrated straight. No more desire for softnoses.


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Originally Posted by Fury01
Straight wheelweights do very well if not pushed beyond 2200 in most calibers. At handgun impacts its generally too hard.

I would add, there is very little left to gain over 2200 with Cast in a Rifle for hunting. In a handgun, a FN wheel weight bullet of the old wheel weight variety, is a perfect killer at normal speeds even though it rarely expands as noted above. If you want expansion, then go softer and focus on Fit.
Lastly; I have seen far more problems with too hard than too soft when it comes hunting cast bullets considering both accuracy and terminal effects.
Fit is King and enough Lube is Queen. Powder Coat has put the Queen's realm within the reach of everyone. If your fit is right, Powder coat solves all the rest of the trip down the barrel problems.

Bingo! Truer words were never spoken.


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Just curious; how many have shot sub 1 inch groups AND game animals with cast softnoses north of 2,500?

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Nope, I haven't. Never even tried. Am interested to hear the answers to that question too!


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Pistols, a .45 Colt Levergun, saboted bullets in a muzzleloader, and a .45-70 are where I’ll start.

I do have a Lee 200 RN for my old Krag (rough bore, but does decent w/jacketed). Might have to play with that…..

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Originally Posted by Potsy
I do have a Lee 200 RN for my old Krag (rough bore, but does decent w/jacketed). Might have to play with that…..

I long ago gave up predicting if a rough bore will handle cast bullets or not. Some really crappy bores turned out counter-intuitively to be decent shooters.


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The highest velocity I have achieved with usable hunting accuracy is 2,200 fps in a Steyr 1904 8x57 J, 190gr gas check. But then, I have never fooled with any alloys harder than Bhn 15.


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Thanks for the replies and sorry for the thread hijack; hopefully some experiences like posted above helps the OP.

As I mentioned above, a friend of mine used my loads from several years ago to shoot a whitetail (250 LFN, 53grs. RL15, 35 Whelen) two Saturdays ago. I had used it before on three hogs and it worked outstanding. HIS reason for using it is that it shot better than the jacketed load he had been shooting prior to the season. It clocked 2,550 out of my rifle, about as fast as a 250 from a Whelen gets in a book. The base is heat treated, the noses are pure lead for 3/4 of the nose length. That's one load made up that worked like a jacketed bullet in two rifles. We didn't scrub the copper fouling (his other bullet was a Barnes), fret over how hot the bore was, we just shot it like it was a jacketed bullet.

I've also used one to shoot a feral hog at about 100 yards with a 22 Hornet, 48gr. LBT FN sized .225 13grs of LilGun for right at 2,900 fps. The nose again 3/4 length of nose pure lead.
This load also shoots sub 1 inch, probably around 3/4 of an inch for five shot groups. The picture is long gone, but I've posted one picture here before with 3 touching and two just outside of the cluster.

I've also shot the 180 LBT SP from a 308, a 270 from a 375 HH past 2,200 fps. using basically book loads for the jacketed equivalent. I still use both because they shoot within the jacketed groups at like velocities. I also have a 62 gr. bore riding bullet load for a 222 Mag with a 1-9 twist I run to 2,900. It shoots great.

We hear of fit; this is not to say most mold designs stink, but a lot of bore riding bullets have most of the bullet weight worst case or just enough best case NOT supported by the lands AND grooves. If the nose mashes and yaws or has a yaw created by runout or built in the mold this can get worse when we want things to go fast or apply more pressure. If the nose is not concentric to the center of the bore accuracy worsens. Using and in and out sizer can also increase runout and yaw before the bullet gets stuffed into a case....and we haven't even mentioned seating! Bore riding bullets are popular because more people were enamoured with the possibility of the base exposed below the neck to "hot gasses that cause leading", when in actuality its the base obturating before it hits the case neck, without any support. Remember, lead, especially softer lead, needs support so it doesn't mash/yaw/deform, which is why lower pressure, lower velocity make them behave better.

The poster above (and most reasonable cast shooters do) make the bullet fatter for a better fit and make the hardness a bit harder. He got his gun to shoot better. Why? The bullet deforms less both fore and aft, it resists out of round sizing that much more and it deforms less when seating. Of course we are strictly speaking of modern bolt, lever, auto and pump rifles and dies for mostly jacketed bullets. Paper patches an muzzle seated arms are different mousetraps. Sure, we can treat our arms to operate that way, but they will not shoot their best or at highest velocity. They are not going to allow us to load them like jacketed bullets, which is what may or may not be the goal.

I keep hearing about hard bullets being "too hard" and all sorts of nonsense; the same chaps slap a gas check on their bullets or run jacketed stuff with nary a worry about them being "too hard", not the least of which both make them able to shoot faster with better accuracy. But softer is needed for cast bullets?
Not in my experience. If they shoot better "soft", you haven't done the fit part or you have juggled the hardness and pressure successfully. FILL the throat; as fat as will chamber when fouled. It sounds impossible, but its not. Fixed chambers like rifles and autos are so much easier than revolvers, but many shoot cast from their favorite wheelie and think their bolt action is a riddle.

You do have to know the actual dimensions of your throat, the actual sized diameter of your bullets. They don't have to be perfect, but if a throat is .3582 getting a bullet sized to .3575 is going to be better than .357. If your dies mutilate your fatter than jacketed bullets, fix them or try different ones. They mutilate less if they are hard, for starters. Fit with the throat/chamber also minimizes bullet deformation; blobs have runout. We don't want that.
Speaking of runout; try running your primo cast loads across your runout gauge. They aren't going to shoot like jacketed bullets if they aren't as low and they surely won't if they are way softer.

I generally use short nose bullets or bullets shaped like a ball seat throat most common today with the bearing length full diameter to the throat and hardness for rifles is generally 25-32 BHN. They are always lubed an checked in an oversize die and nose first sized to maintain bullet balance from the nose to the gas check, or ran through the Star if not sizing too much diameter. The front band is seated out to engrave the rifling, ensuring the bullet is centered in the bore. I don't give nary a whim if the ass end is below the neck like in the 308 load. Lead doesn't like to jump without support and being centered and straight. It doesn't like to be mashed too much other than land engagement.

The softnoses are generally made two pot style and they shoot right alongside the regular ones done this way for me.

Hopefully this helps.

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A well thought out and cogent reply. Thank you, seriously.

For myself, I don't have a need or desire to shoot lead at much higher than 2000fps velocity. I have no access to longer range venues than 200 yards for my experimental work, all of the rifle competition I engage in with cast bullets is at 100 and 200 yards (traditional Schuetzen with .32 and smaller calibers), and all of the beasts I've killed in my life with cast bullets have been at 100 yards and often much less. For me that 2000fps capstone is, has been, and always will, be completely satisfactory. If I mastered the realm of 2200-3000fps with cast for some unknown reason, I would have little or no chance to put that extra velocity to good use - so I choose to conserve powder in that regard. (I ain't rich and if I can get twice as many shots per pound of powder I'm very happy.) The .30 calibers that have been the mainstay of my cast bullet hunting have been stuff like .30-30/.303 Savage (with 170-190's) and .30-40 Krag, (200-220's) both of which live happily in the barely 2000fps realm. When I hunt/hunted with cast in .30-06's they were loaded to .30-40 performance levels, and got the job done with alacrity. If I had ever had a .35 Whelen I would've probably loaded it to .35 Remington standards - I've never wanted or needed a lot of sturm und drang in my shooting life. Likewise any other large caliber.

There's been plenty of room on the sub-2000fps cast bullet playground to keep me occupied and for lying awake at night thinking about - I care not a whit about techniques/processes that'll allow me super high velocity with cast bullets, although I read about them with interest and pay attention when guys like Mr. Hawk here speak, but it's only out of academic interest. When I wish to shoot/hunt with stuff of high velocity (in my ever decreasing number of rifles capable of it) I simply use jacketed stuff. Do not get me started on .22 CF's, that's something I keep divorced entirely from my cast bullet hobby (passion?) - maybe if someone shows me how to achieve 3600fps with 3/8MOA accuracy I'll change my tune, but I'll not hold my breath! .22's with cast for me lies in making Hornets, .22WCF's, and 5.6x35R perform like a rimfire.

That said, for guys like me, there is definitely such a thing as too hard. Or, I should say, unnecessarily hard. Time and time again over lo these many decades, I have encountered better accuracy with soft alloys than with "hard" alloys in the velocity range I like to play in: 700-2000 fps (to include pistols), all else being equal, to include proper fit. And it's not just me to report this - I don't exist in a vacuum. And also note, there's no game killing requirements in what I just said. If a guy is gonna go afield in pursuit of four legged beasties and wishes to smack them with energy derived from cast bullets at high velocity my advice is to to memorize what Hawk said.

Concocting two piece bullets, selectively hardening bases, applying powder coating, etc. - all in an effort to duplicate jacketed performance is all well and good. Just not for me.

Slumping bullet noses is something one definitely has to pay attention to, and correct for, be it by mechanical fit or alloy hardness jockeying. One of my favorite .30 target bullets is a spitzer design of all things (cast spitzers aren't supposed to shoot for sh*t). It's a 170 grainer designed by an old guy named Frank Elliot and the mold produced by NOE. He told me that if I kept velocity down to 1600-1800fps, nose slump won't be a problem no matter the alloy. (He incorporated a skinch more bore riding length ahead of the top driving band than is typical on spitzer molds, and the ogive is "fuller", at first blush it looks like the old 180 Palma Match bullet.) Guess what? It shoots beautifully in several .30 rifles, most specifically '03 Springfields to include an 03A1 National Match, NRA Sporter, and a Style T match rifle - all with "standard" Ball seat throats - at guess what, 1600-1800 fps. Plenty of velocity to push the bullet through one side of the paper and out the other, and done with scrap lead alloys in the neighborhood of 10-12bhn. They shoot better than with a treasured (and dwindling) stash of FA Match ammo, a lot better. If I push that bullet any faster, even with hard as woodpecker lips alloys, accuracy diminishes and I'm sure it's because of some nose slumping/cocking - but who cares? I don't.

Sorry for the long diatribe. I had a great day wandering the countryside in my old MG, had a nice meal, and settled in with a bottle of good Irish whiskey, and am feeling quite garrulous! Peace and holiday happiness to all of you!


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Buy that guy a beer (or Jamison, Tullamore?)

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Won't be going down that path for the same reasons Gnoahhh put forth. That said, if one feels the need for making bullets with 2 different alloys, go all in. Cast the parts, drop them in a hammer swage and do it right.

I'll let you fellas figure out which one I speak of. HINT-it weighs 850 grains.
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My thanks to you gentlemen who have been doing this far longer than I have for sharing of your knowledge and experience. Merry Christmas to you!


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Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
My thanks to you gentlemen who have been doing this far longer than I have for sharing of your knowledge and experience. Merry Christmas to you!

Exactly what H&S said! I'm relatively new to casting and I most definitely appreciate it when you fellas talk shop. Many thanks for sharing and Merry Christmas.
Dan

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