Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Combination Guns and Drillings O/U combo gun, Johann Kalezky 16ga over 8x57JR

Worked with many different guns over the years, but never a drilling or combination gun. Found a great deal on a very nice O/U combination gun, 16 gauge over 8x57JR. I'm guessing the odd rifle chambering discouraged buyers.

Talking with knowledgeable folks, and looking at Ken Howell's book, the 8x57JR is the same case as the 8x57JRS, so I've ordered a good stock of Norma brass, and have found some .318 bullets & dies. I will have a local smith cast the chambers and slug the bore, to confirm the exact sizes.

From a loading standpoint, I see data for the 8x57 and Varget, and assume that I'll want to be very conservative for an old combo gun like this. If anyone can point me toward suitable load data, I'd appreciate it!

Don't know [bleep].
Some 8x57 loads and data aren't much better than 35 Remington.
Just looked at Nosler, they has 2400fps 180gr starting loads for Varget.

Look into some H4895 data. If you don't like the starting leads they can be reduced.

How low you need?
No idea.
Maybe look into JRS factory loads for a velocity window?

The first thing you need to do is put a small dab of white grease on the hinge pin.

You can use regular "S" bore data and dial back about 7-10%. Depending on when the gun was made and the maker you might have a .320-.321 bore. Most drillings made between the wars had generous bores, since the Germans had limited correct ammunition and used a lot of surplus 8X57S ammo in their combo guns, although the vast majority of combo guns were J bore chambered. That's right, the rimless .323 ammo. A 2-4 section cleaning rod would be carried to knock fired brass out, or in some instances a small coil spring loaded plunger would be milled into the extractor for extracting rimless ammo. It's also common on 7X57R drillings.

If the bore slugs to .320 or .321 32Spl 170gr bullets can be used and are often more accurate than .318 bullets. If accuracy is a bit edgy try the 32's. For years they were all we had for loading for the "J" bore. Buffalo Bullets and Hawk made good .318s in 196-200grains. I like the Hawks.

My go-to powder for the JR is R15 using starting load 8X57 S data. Don't push the gun. Being a JR it's no doubt older and a pre WWII gun.

We need pictures!

Cool! Thanks!

I have found S&B specs for their 196gr factory loads, indicating 710 m/s (2329 ft/sec) so I think 175 & 180's should be able to run 2400-2500 fps. Hodgdon shows some Varget loads in this range, as does Nosler. As far as pics, see the attachment

You might want to slow down the lighter bullets a bit to get them to regulate. If fast they might print too low.

Maybe a PM to Mule Deer as I am pretty sure he shoots a similar gun so chambered.

John shoots an 8X57JRS in a drilling that's pretty accurate. He could give some good 1st hand loading advice, since the rounds are so similar.

After looking at the photo I think you have a very sweet gun there. It's older and not as stout as the post war guns, so stick to the conservative JR loads.

It looks like you don't have it scoped, so slow the lighter 175-180gr bullets down; not as fast as the 196gr factory fodder. If you run them out as fast or faster you will most likely shoot way low to the iron sights. Try a couple of the 175s at 2,275 fps, and see where they print. Shoot two, then cool the gun down a lot, then shoot two more. If they shoot low slow them more or go to the 96-200gr bullets. They'll climb as the rifle barrel warms up, so shoot a cold gun to sight in and work up loads. Break the gun down to hasten cooling. It's also good to shoot the gun 3-4-5 or more times in fast succession and record where each prints as the gun warms.

Combo guns take getting used to and patience. IMO you have a good one.

Great info, thanks!

Down the road it would be interesting to scope it, if the mounts could be sourced..

Lee can get it scoped. It isn't cheap to scope these.

http://learmsllc.com/showroom/

I was at Lee's shop today. He's going through a circa 1962 Kreighoff Trumpf Primus 16/16/7X57R drilling I got from a good friend recently. We were discussing scope options, and Lee was cleaning the internal action and fixing the rear sight actuator. He needs to call Kreighoff and get some small parts for the sight. Lee does work for Kreighoff, mostly scope and mount related.

There are no Harbor Freight tools on this workbench.

Good, I knew they are people who specialize in these old European QD mounts, appreciate the reference.

That’s funny, right of his coffee cup is a light that was a free gift from Harbor Freight with any purchase 😂🤣

Here's the barrel markings

I gave him four of those. He likes them, and so do I.

The rifle chamber is a now obsolete round, the 8X57 R-360. It's a smaller case and pretty tame, based off a shortened 9,3X72R case and is similar ballistically to a 38-55.

Don't let the odd chambering deter you, with the right dies you can make anything.

6.5x58R Sauer(center) from 9.3x72R(right) C&H had the die I needed

Trust me, I've made lots of weird stuff over the years...

CH4D does list dies for this, and I'm sure I can get cases from RCC.

The 360 is a mild round and a real pleasure to shoot, and it will kill deer within 100 yards. It might be a lot of fun to do what erich suggests and craft some ammo. IMO it will enhance pride of ownership...a certain satisfaction.

CH4D may list it, but you would be lucky to get it by 2025.

Erich, I have never seen that center round before, pretty cool. Call it the original 6.5 manbun, 100+ years old!

They do say they are really busy on their website

An 8x57JR case will not begin to fit, so yes it is the smaller round. I'll have to see if maybe Redding or RCBS are still willing to make custom dies from a chamber cast.

And I thought the .220 Howell was esoteric!

I might have found you a set of R360 dies nearby to me. If so, pay the asking price, whatever it is. My German connection says they're unobtainable over the pond.

Source of brass to form into 8X57 R360:
https://www.buffaloarms.com/9-3x72r-norma-cases-nor9372r.html

The bore actually slugs .316 to .317"

Updates are I have a chamber cast in hand, so off to Redding it goes. Hopefully they can get me fixed up with dies, this year

I've also looked for 8x57 R/360 ammunition, and have drawn a blank, from everywhere. Apparently I'm the last person who plans to shoot it

Updates are I discussed the project with Redding, who prefers fired cases over chamber casts, to make custom dies. I am working on forming a few of the 9.3x72R Norma cases, so they can be fireformed. Without designed dies in hand, it's a matter of finding dies that can form the bigger case down in stages, and get them small enough to allow chambering, then fireform them.

I am about 90% there, using a combination of 8x57, and .303 British dies to reduce the neck and form the shoulder. I need to increase the case body taper, which I can hopefully do with a .32-40 sizer die.

Handloading 401

Almost there with 8x57 R/360 cases. I now have 5 that fit the old Johann’s rifle barrel. Need to get them trimmed & annealed, and figure out a fire forming load, then load them, checking for neck clearance, and choot ‘em.
Once successfully fire formed I can send them to Redding, for custom full length dies. I only need 3 cases to send to them, and I’ve made 5.

You can make useable cases by taking the parent 9.3x72R brass, trimming, then full length resizing in a .303 British die, then partially sizing the the cartridge body taper, with a .32-40 FL sizer. I’ll have to grind the sizer button for .318 bullets, which I can do at my shop.

LOOKS GREAT!!!

Good Job

The next question I'll ask is, what is the best RCBS shell holder, for the 9.3x72R parent cases? I'd prefer to prime them with my RCBS hand priming tool. I see one reference that suggests the #30 will work.

This weekend's discovery is that I will have to outside turn the case necks, as they are too big to fit the JK's chamber, after seating .318 bullets. So Ill have to sort that out.

...inching closer. Had to buy a couple items, shellholder & pilot for the Hornady case neck turner. They sell an 8mm pilot, but at .3205" it's too big, so I'll have to turn it down.

For the 16 ga shotgun barrel, I've found some loads that are "low brass" advertising velocity ~1165 fps. Are these going to be appropriate for the shotgun barrel?

“Low Brass” doesn’t always mean “low pressure”, but if you stick with 1 ounce, or even 7/8 ounce if you can find them, you should be OK. My data from pressure testing 16 ga shells is now a little dated, but all of the 1 ounce or less factory ammo tested was less than 10000 psi except for Remington and Rio. Remington was about 10% higher, and Rio . . . Considerably higher.

The mild 1165 FPS shells should be fine.

All of the present American 16-gauge loads have the same maximum SAAMI pressure.

One of the oldest myths about modern shotshells is that "low-brass" or lower-velocity loads result in lower pressure.

Thanks! I'm pleased that unlike the rifle barrel, you can actually buy ammo for the shotgun barrel

So to summarize this adventure so far:

1. Buy 9.3x72R brass (Norma makes, available at Buffalo Arms)
2. Buy .318 dia bullets (Hawk is arguably the best source)
3. Buy back issue of Handloader #139 for reference.
4. Have gunsmith cast chamber and I send chamber cast to to make custom dies. Maker does not like casting, wants fired cases
5. Search for loaded ammo. None exists, anywhere.
6. Buy .303 British dies.
7. Buy 8x57 dies.
8. grind .320" sizer button to .316" for .318 bullets
9. Size cases in a .303 British sizer.
10. Trim cases to 2.23" long
11. Obtain/borrow .32-40 sizer die, to increase taper of case body, to allow chambering.
12. Buy RCBS #30 shellholder, to allow primer seating. (It also works for the .41 mag case)
13. seat primer, charge with powder, seat bullet. Discover that neck is too thick to allow chambering,
14. Pull out Hornady case neck turner. Try to recall how to run the accursed thing.
15. Buy Hornady #29 shellholder for the neck turner
16. Buy Hornady 8mm neck pilot for neck turner.
17. Pilot is too big at .3205. try to turn in lathe. Too much runout to turn. Hand grind to .314" and polish.

So hopefully get it running in the next few days. Just trying to get 3-4 fireformed cases, to allow custom dies to be built.

Just in case anyone has an itch to load for the 8x57 R/360....

My very dear friend Jonny Bell when he was dying gave me a custom combo O/U Weatherby that he himself built , he removed the top 12 gauge barrel off and put a rifle barrel chambered in a 22 K-Hornet on the top barrel Jonny also made all the parts himself for K-Hornet including the scope base too.this O/U was done very professional too and this K-Hornet does shoot well too . > this Weatherby O/U is a 22 K-Hornet / 12 gauge 3inch with chokes ,should be a great turkey gun too.

The chamber is designated 70mm, so it's 2 3/4". A light load standard length shell won't pound the little gun.

If you haven't already checked out the German gun collectors association, here is a link. . .

https://www.germanguns.com/vb5/