Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Copper bullets.

With RPM based upon twist I suppose that when accuracy is lost on either side of the twist spectrum performance would be compromised. So there must be a range of acceptable twists for any given bullet length & caliber. Velocity would play out in terms of how fast one could spin a bullet based upon its design. Each bullet design having its optimal twist maximizing blender effect & velocity based on individual bullets.

So new bullet boxes might read:

Minimal velocity for expansion: 1600fps
Explodes in twists over 1:3” at velocity over 2750fps
Optimal blender: 1:6
Loses stability: 1:10

*Optimal impact of 2200fps in a 1:6 twist results in perfect performance.

John, if you ingested lead today it would be out of your blood in 6 months or typically much less. It would be in your bones for decades. As such what does a blood test tell you other than you were recently exposed? You might read this.
https://labs.icahn.mssm.edu/toddlab/bone-lead-test/
FWIW they can also use a new type of Xray to analyze bone lead levels now where previously a bone biopsy was required.
Regardless I don't want to feed myself or my family any lead, period.

You don't seem to grasp the problem with ingesting lead. It's not acute lead toxicity. It's chronic issues such as cognitive decline. And ingesting lead particles does result in lead entering your blood stream. That's not even debatable.

CRS;
Good evening to you sir, I hope the weekend and the weather in the Black Hills behaved for you.

As a bit of a further back story, when we first started playing with that Swede carbine, I'd built it as a hunting rifle with fairly low recoil for my father who'd just had a pace maker installed. This was about '85 and I didn't have a chronograph then, so found out about some of the speeds later on when my good wife bought me one of the first red Shooting Chrony chronographs to hit the shelves in a store up in Kelowna.

Without looking into the notes and going off of memory, we managed to blow up 120gr Nosler Solid Base and Sierra Game Kings on local bucks. The Sierra didn't make it to the second lung on a broadside shot, just came completely unglued in the first 4".

We finally found that 140gr Partitions and Hornady Spires worked not too bad in it. I recall being surprised at the damage of one spike mulie Dad got with it and in my hunting diary noted "tissue damage similar to '06 180gr Hornady SP load".

All that to say that my strong hunch is there is a point where rpm will have a bullet not work.

Oh, should mention too that in a conversation with greydog on here who is a respected gunsmith, he mentioned that the Swede barrels had deep grooves and that seemed to tear apart cup and core bullets as well, but they typically did well with monometal bullets.

My original coyote bomber was a 26" .22-250AI with a 1:14" twist because that's what we did back then. I'd love to hear what you see with the 1:8" twist version if you're so inclined.

To your question if there'd be a noticeable difference, I think that there likely would, but it wouldn't be a huge one is my hunch.

Again I'd be interested to hear if the faster twist has you starting to find bullets and what you see in terms of tissue damage.

Lastly sir, I respect and very much echo your last sentence, "I do not know for certain"..

Me too sir, me too.

Best to you.

Dwayne

Hah! That's quite a gas station when you can pickup bullets!

I have used solid copper bullets. In rifles that have a high MV, they can work great, if your rifle likes them. There are lots of reasons not to use them, however. The most important reason is personal choice. If I don't want to use them, for any reason under the sun, that's good enough.

As for other states following the lead of liberal states that have outlawed lead, not likely in most states. The entire concept is nothing but an anti gun ploy to reduce the availability of affordable ammunition. Raptors are dying by the truckload in wind farms and the hippies are still ignoring that and crying about lead ammo.

It might not be up to states if it's done federally.

2 things. Your first sentence = nail, head. If you've followed MD for long he has covered how many bullets have changed over time ( most usefully I might add!)

The second thing is, where do I sign up to be on the "hunting non-stop" test board?!

I'd be all in on that for sure!

In thinking about the rpm theories…..I think that there may be great merit to this. I’ll go a bit farther and suggest that many people go to light, IMO too light, bullets when going to monos. The light bullets, once expanded will lose their rotation much faster than a heavier bullet…..thereby lessening/reducing the internal damage to the animal!

That’s my story….and I’m stick’n to it! memtb

BC30cal,

I will certainly report back. Do not know if the extensive opportunities to test the 1:8 are as readily available.

Here is some background.

Twenty years ago or so when we started using the 22-250, deer populations were extremely high and antlerless tags were abundant along with youth tags. The 22 cal mono certainly did the job without excessive meat damage. There were quite a few years where double digit deer numbers were taken. The tag situation has changed with deer numbers down and my boys all grown up.

My motivation back then was much different, that was a time when everyone "KNEW" that 22 caliber rifles were too small for deer. I was out to prove a point so to speak.

Through all my years of hunting, I will always prefer a tougher bullet. Would choose over penetration, over bullet blow up every time. I like mono's, as can be seen by my extensive use of them.

I have only had one hunting experience with mono's that made me pause. It was with the original Barnes X in the 90's, 140gr in my 270. Horrible to find a suitable load. Took it elk hunting in Colorado and shot an elk running through the timber. Only saw a flinch at the shot, followed the tracks through the snow. Was starting to wonder if. No blood until after I saw her piled up. Felt like she went an awful long ways, but do not recall. Did it pencil through or not? Do not remember thinking it penciled, but was not impressed with animal reaction at the shot. But hindsight has me wondering. I was still pretty green as a hunter, my first mountain hunt, first elk hunt, etc.


I later tried the XLC bullets with bad results on paper. Had given up on monos until I ran into the guy from Superior Ammo at the local range. They had just started loading the TSX's and was duly impressed with them. He said I should give them one more try. I did, have not looked back.

I had a Tikka 1-8 22-250 for a few years. From 40 grain Ballistic Tips to 75 AMax and ELDs and 77 TMKs shot excellent with almost no real issue getting accurate ammo.

The 77 TMK and 62 grain TTSX were rippers and kinda what I defaulted to. The 62 could probably punch elk legs. That bullet was like a drill bit and always showed good expansion on everything from woodchucks to deer.

I would not hesitate to use the 53gr TSX at 3800 fps on elk.

Would prefer a 338-06 though.

Just checked the mail. Badlands Bullet package showed up.
224 62gr Bulldozer and 277 150gr Super Bulldozer.

Pics in a bit.

Here you go

Those look quite slick.

I didn't read every post but have come around to the copper bullet. Like Brad I had a few 'less than desirable' experiences with 25 call, 100 gr TSX and 7mm/140. I still maintain the 25/100 did not open at all in 2 cases. The 7mm/140 prob expanded but the internal damage was very unimpressive although I did recover the deer.

As a result I swore them off - till the last few years. Once it seemed that plastic tips were added and it seemed they became more uniform in their expansion characteristics, I stuck my toe back in the copper bullet water.

I've now shot several deer and an elk with monos. I'm cautiously optimistic but have developed loads for all.my rifles with monos. The 308/150 etip is a definite winner. Driven to 2900, it shoot flat and retains enough velocity to be effective to 400 yards if the need arises.

One thing I think monos have done is make cartridges more effective. My 308 load for example. I have zero qualms using it for any bid game. I'd not purposely take it Arctos Horribilis hunting but if one showed up intent on being a jackass, I'd feel like I had a fair chance of changing his attitude without getting chewed on.

Same with the 338 fed/185 TTSX. I've not shot anything with it yet but at 2700 ft/sec it shoots flat enough to ~ 350 to be effective. In fact, I built the 338 fed in lieu of a 338-06. With all bullets except the 185 driven by the 338-06, the 338 fed/185 shoots flatter. Load the 338-06 with the 185 and it obviously starts faster and will shoot a bit flatter - but at a significant jump in recoil.

I'm about finished load development with my latest Kimber MT 270 win. A 130 LRX at 3100 shoots very flat out to reasonable ranges. I don't see the need for a 6.5 PRC given the velocity and accuracy that my 270 is capable of. And I can buy shells in walmarks if needed.

All told, I think the newer, and/or improved versions of existing, monos have changed the game. In my mind similar to 1948 with the advent of the greatest hunting bullet - Nosler Partition.

Can't say as I'm keen on mandating their use but the science is compelling. Now if Barnes would release their 30 cal/150 TTSX used in their 308 ammo as a reloading component........

Bill, have you done any work with the 168ttsx in the .308? Since it's supposed to open at a lower velocity, I thought it may be better than the 150's. ???

I have not. The best I can get from a 165 C&C in a 308 is 2700, they start to drop off pretty good at 300. I'd guess a copper mono might not make 2700 in a 22" 308, but I'm guessing......

I wouldn't be affeared with a 150 TTSX or etip.

With a 308 and 150g TTSX, I’ve killed one elk at 120yds broadside, another at 50yds quartering away, and a pronghorn at 300yds.

In all three cases the bullet left a good exit hole and none of the critters traveled more than 30 yds.

But what if you have many hundred 168's and zero 150's?

Nope. Hammers is my preference. LRX or TTSX is next.