Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Copper bullets.

Is there any reason not to use copper bullets for hunting?

yes and no ,i do like Hammer bullets made of copper and do use some , but i have 1,000`s of lead bullets and lead bullets do work well too.

Provided that you keep the impact velocities above that of reliable expansion……nope! memtb

A couple years ago I got a 308 Win, which was a caliber I never owned. Got the reloading components and began playing with loads. Quit playing when I tried the 130 Gr Barnes TTSX over Varget powder:


Loaded up a bunch of ammo and have been hunting with that load for the last 2 seasons. All the game below fell to that load and all were one shot kills.







I see NO reason to use any other bullet. If your rifle shoots all copper bullets well, and mine does, then use them with confidence.

On the opposite side here. After almost 60 years, I have used conventional bullets, except for a few partitions SPS had on sale for $13 a box. I see no extraordinary use for them except to make my wallet lighter. I found that if one uses conventional bullets within the design parameters of what velocity they were made for, they work quite well with just as good accuracy,if not better. I'd rather spend my money else where. I'd bet more animals have been taken with plain Jane CorLoks than all the copper bullets put together.That tells you some thing right there.

Two things made them popular. People who had magnumitus, as I call it, found conventional bullets do not work at higher velocities and they came to believe the magnums could do more.

The other is is the marketing hype of lead core bullets posing significant health concerns which had been debunked many times with blood test comparing hunters vs non hunters. I believe our local scribe Muledeer posted such findings.

I could post as many photos, if not more, of animals taken with conventional cored bullets that were just as dead. The anti's like them because it throws more road blocks in your way. Funny, many bitch about the government telling us what firearms we may own, but not when they tell us what we have to us in them.

The question I pose is why did you start using them? Laws said you had to? You were looking at lead cor bullets coming apart because you pushed them at 3500 fps?

In “standard” velocity cartridges I don’t think they’re as effective as softer lead cored bullets if you stay off the shoulders. Plus I can see no benefit to them on deer sized game from cartridges producing less than 2800fps.

High velocity magnums they’re easier on meat to some extent. Large game like elk, moose, or something along those lines they often give deeper penetration through heavier bones than a lead cored bullet might.

This is true. I loaded some 168 TTSXs for a friend's .308, they were in the 2,500-ish fps range. He shot a nice bull through the heart at about 60 yards and recovered the bullet.

Aside from the plastic tip being gone, it looked almost like I could have re-loaded it an shot it again. I've seen other similar photos, I think Brad has some.

I live in CA, so I’m forced to use CU bullets for hunting. They work ok except for the 22 lr bullets, but are more expensive.

Unfortunately, other states will probably also require all hunting bullets to be CU too.

They are great, but expensive. They are not necessary, unless your state demands it. I have used them with good results, but the critters I shoot have never known when they were shot with a cheaper bullet.

I load lots of TTSX bullets, no complaints

Are they necessarily better than cup and core bullets? No. Is there any reason not to use them? Sure if your rifle doesn't group them or you don't want to pay for them, don't use them. Is there any reason to use them? Sure if they group well and you want to buy them. Am I trying to convince you to use them? Nope, do whatever you want. I'm just answering the question the OP put forth.

I used conventional copper/lead core bullets for over 45 years. In the late '70s when I rechambered my .30-06 to .30 Gibbs I started shooting Nosler Partitions in it because they stood up better with the higher velocity in larger critters like elk and moose, but I kept using and still use conventional cup/core bullets for my other hunting.

Then, in 2004, I booked an African Cape Buffalo hunt, and I bought a .375 RUM for that hunt. From what I read, the traditional thinking for Cape Buffalo was to use a solid for the first shot followed with soft point bullets. I then read an article or maybe a Barnes ad that said with the TSX bullets you don't need to mix a solid and soft points as the TSX would do it all. So I drank the kool aid and worked up a load with 300 grain TSX bullets. They worked great on everything that I shot on that trip from my Chobe Bushbuck to my Buffalo.

In subsequent hunts with that rifle I switched to 270 grain TSX bullets because they shot a little flatter and Buffalo weren't on my menu.

Then a couple of years ago I booked an Alaskan Brown Bear hunt and wanted to use my .375 RUM, but couldn't find any 270 or 300 grain TSX bullets, but was able to buy a couple of boxes of 281 grain Hammer bullets, and worked up a load with them for that trip.

Ever since the late '60s when I started big game hunting, I've admired and wanted a .300 Weatherby rifle. In 2009 I finally fulfilled that dream and bought a Vanguard chambered in .300 Wby. So 'new rifle, new bullets' and because I had had good results with TSX bullets in my .375 RUM, I decided to load them in my .300 Wby.

I started with 165 gr TSX bullets and used them on a few hunts, then tried 165 gr TTSX bullets and found them to be slightly more accurate in my rifle, so I used them on some more hunts.

Then in 2017 I booked a hunt for Dagestan Tur in Azurbaijan and I wanted to use my .300 Wby. I also upgraded my scope on that rifle to a Leupold VX 3i 4.5-14x 40 with their CDS turret system that allowed me to send Leupold the ballistic data for the bullet that I would be using and they would send me a turret specifically for that load. Since I built that .300 Weatherby primarily for elk hunting, and for many years my favorite elk bullet weighed 180 grains, and that Roy Weatherby made the .300 Wby to primarily shoot 180 grain bullets, I decided to work up a load with 180 gr TTSX bullets.

On the next to the last evening of my Tur hunt, 2 rams/billies fed out into the basin that we were in. I ranged them at 327 yards, set my turret to that distance, fired, and when he quit tumbling at the bottom of that valley, the bullet entrance hole was as close to my aim point as if I had set the bullet there.

I continue to shoot cup and core bullets in my other hunting rifles, but I only hunt with mono copper bullets in my .375 RUM and .300 Weatherby rifles.

While we’re sharing experiences……. here’s ours. My wife and I have limited experience with monos, using them exclusively since the early ‘90’s 😉 …..with zero failures. We have both taken game from inside of 30 yards to excess of 400 yards…..that’s pretty good performance!

I have had numerous failures with cup and core bullets on smallish big game animals at far less than 3000 fps. Yes they killed the animals, well all but one…..but the bullets failed to exit (these were medium bore, heavy for caliber bullets) that completely disintegrated inside the animal. Another gave the old textbook “classic” mushroom, recovered under the hide on the offside of a small elk, giving a nice wide frontal area retaining only 60% of it’s original weight. The elk was shot broadside behind the shoulder, hitting only a rib. Yes, the bullet killed…..but time, the bullet was a standard weight bullet fired from a medium bore rifle.

Perhaps I expect more from my bullets than many people. But, if my bullet from a medium bore rifle completely disintegrate or expand yet fail to exit from small to normal sized big game, with broadside hits…..I consider these “FAILED” bullets! memtb

Whitetail deer are only 12” wide through the brisket and the 140 grain TSX from my 7mm-08 made for a tidy carcass with less blood shot than I was seeing with the c&c Core-Lokt or Interlock bullets. A quarter size hole through both lungs instead of the normal lung mush should have warned me that those TSX’s were not expanding well enough and it cost me a lost buck the next season. The tipped TTSX may have solved that problem, but Ballistic Tips have opened faster and resulted in faster humane kills for me.

I use both and prefer conventional even though I killed game with both, in my experience convention cup and core and especially Partitions kill quicker.

I've been impressed so far with the performance of copper bullets on deer. I found some petals from Hammer Hunters, and blue plastic tips from Barnes ttsx or LRX. Never found a core, shank or mushroom from any copper bullet. All the deer had exist wounds and some through both shoulders. So far I never could come up with a reason not to use copper bullets.

You never will find a core because they don't have a core.

It all boils down to what one wants.

I have no experience with the monos, I don't want experience with em either.

Cup n core lead kills very fast for me, I see a lot written on how a mono bullet tends to not put game down as quickly, especially in smaller bores.

No thanks, I want an animal down fast, preferably instant but a 25 yard run is acceptable. When death runs get longer than that I didn't do my part with shot placement.

I don't need to shoot a railroad spike tough bullet on a 250# animal.

Perhaps they don’t work well with “immature” 😁 calibers…..the smallest cartridge we use (wife) is a .338 WM. The .338 has been very effective for her!

Having taken everything from Fox/coyote to moose with my rifle/cartridge, with very (very) few follow-up shots……I’m pretty pleased with the monos performance! memtb

this was my first year shooting animals with copper bullets and i used a 25 caliber bullet at 3680 fps 103 gr. Hammer bullets this bullet worked well and was very accurate . i got a bang flops so far , on purpose at this large whitetail buck at 125 yards right on the shoulder he was standing there i had the rifle on a rest was a bang flop too ,i was unable to find bullet weather condition was a snow blizzard 15 minutes after buck went down ,we got 14 inches of snow that day below zero weather. we plan on using Hammer bullets next year too . but to be honest 100 gr. Nosler Partitions or Swift A-Frames have work as well in the past 20 some years too. i just like loading other types and brand bullets for fun that`s what a Loony does .

I'd like to see a picture of that bullet. Its supposed to be one of the versions that require less velocity to expand. Was considering using the 168ttsx as a do-it-all in .308 and .30-06.

Not really.

Nobody is a bigger fan of Partitions than me. Having said that….

Copper bullets have come a long ways and are about as reliable as other premium hunting bullets. This seems to be especially true of the plastic tipped variety.

Secondly, here in the west it is quite likely a matter of time before lead core bullets will be prohibited. Although that may not be much of a factor for you in Georgia.

Blood testing is about worthless for determining your bodies lead load. Lead leaves the blood stream relatively quickly. It hides out in the bones, brain and other tissues for decades.
Mono metal bullets do not work as well as lead and copper bullets as it pertains to killing quickly, but I use them and have been for a long team because I would rather not ingest lead. YMMV.
And FWIW modern lead and copper bullets have worked well in magnums for the 35 years I've been hunting and probably worked well for before that.

I've tried them. My results at the range show them to be adequate, but I get better accuracy with other bullets. Perhaps I just need to tweak my loads a little. The way I see it they are a good choice if using a cartridge that is borderline too small for the game hunted. But for now, I just like other bullets better and price has nothing to do with it.

The money saved buying 200 conventional cup and core bullets vs most premium bullets won't buy me a tank of gas for my truck. I wouldn't buy premium bullets for range plinking. But for load development, getting zeroed, some pre-season practice and hunting, 200 bullets will last me several years. A tank of gas, about 600 miles.

Paying for a premium bullet may not be necessary, but the added costs are negligible in relation to everything else. And who knows, that expensive MIGHT make the difference.

I hate it when a TTSX doesn't hit any major bones and just pencils through, resulting in long runs...

So…..how far did he run after being hit? memtb

A few yards. Less than 10.

Expense.
A big supply of other bullets.
Already have loads using those bullets in my guns.

They offer nothing extra. For the expense and bother.

Somewhere here are 1 box each 22 and 6mm Triple Shocks.
Never bothered to use them.

I use whatever I feel like mostly cause I want to try something out. I kinda think I’ve seen enough now that lead/copper softer bullets kill quicker but all copper will pretty much always leave a blood trail.

If it comes to having to use an all copper bullet I believe I still won’t starve.

👍 memtb

I have killed more game with Barnes copper bullets than others. I’ve seen them used or used them myself to kill Coyotes,Antelope, Whitetails, Mule Deer, and Elk. Cartridges ranged from .223, .243, 7mm Rem Mag, .30-06, and .300 Win Mag.

I started using them in a .30-06 in 1994 when Dad wanted a reduced load for it so I could start Deer hunting. We used the 125 Barnes X. I kept using the ‘06 and it worked so well that when my brother started out with his .243 we loaded Barnes for him. I’ve always been able to get them to shoot in every rifle I have loaded them in.

I like them and they haven’t failed me yet although they aren’t needed for Deer and Antelope, I prefer them because of how well they penetrate. All the loads I’ve done are over 3,000 fps and going well above the minimum impact velocity at impact. I’ve used conventional bullets to kill game smaller than Elk. Obviously they work and will work on larger game as well. I just prefer the Barnes. They are more expensive and the BCs aren’t the best. I prefer the tipped version for easier expansion myself.

Long way of saying, no, there is no reason not to use them.

I run the ttsx exclusively for all my elk rifles. That include 6.5, 270 and 06. Accurate and deadly.
In off season I run cup and core as they are expensive to fling down range.
Found the 140 sst shoot almost identical as the 130 ttsx in my 270.

Only because we live in a state that rolled over in to blue. I doubt MT and WY is close. With so few Republicans in the legislature now and Polis up for another term, what firearms we may own is may soon overshadow what we can shoot in them.

In the early 90's I shot 2 deer with 165 Barnes X bullets and saw little if any expansion, and I butcher my own deer so I know what a bullet that expands does to tissue. So I swore off copper bullets for a while. Fast forward to 2010 and I shot an elk with the original 165 Winchester Supreme loads in a 300 WSM. That bullet was a copper front with some kind of lead encased in the rear section, but the front was a solid copper. Again not much expansion. In all 3 cases a follow up shot was required.

Now I have not tried the Barnes TSX or TTSX, but after 3 animals shot with copper bullets and less than satisfactory expansion, I am not in a hurry to try any more, especially when conventional bullets which include the Nosler Partion have served me very well. Maybe if I was trying to drive lighter bullets at magnum speeds I would give them a whirl.

Everyone has different experiences and many here and on other forums really like the all copper, great for them, I am not a fan.

You killed those animals with the copper bullets yet you believe that you got no expansion, yet straight line penetration. BS pointed bullets that don't expand are notorious for going off line and tumbling.
Instead of estimating expansion by size of exit in the hide, simply pay attention to the damage done to the internal organs

I can not really think of any, unless expense is a big factor.

Have used a bunch of them on game animals.
53gr TSX out of 22-250
55gr GMX out of a 222 Remington
85gr TSX, 270 Win
110gr TSX, 270 Win
130gr T/TSX, 270 Win
130gr GMX, 270 Win
140gr X, 270 Win
180gr TTSX out of 300 H&H. Shot a little better than the 180gr GMX.
210gr T/TSX out of 338-06
300gr TSX out of 375 H&H
400gr TSX 404 Jeffery

Blackbuck to Cape Buffalo, only a rough guess on number of animals. Conservatively 75, probably a lot more counting in witnessed animals from people I have been with.

Velocity range at the muzzle has been 1850 to 3800 fps.

Have a load worked up for my 416 Remington with 350gr TSX, the TTSX's did not shoot as good.
Going to work up a load with 129gr LRX's this year for one of my 270's.

I have not had any non-expansion issues like some here.

I like them because they are easy to load, destroy less meat, and do not leave lead smears/fragments in the remaining meat. We process all of own animals, so I have seen that first hand.

Are lead fragments in the meat really a big deal? I do not know as I have not read any well designed, conclusive studies on the subject.

With all the being said, I have a pile of lead bullets on the shelf also.

Guess you have a reading comprehension issue. I stated VERY little expansion. I also stated that I butcher my own deer so I sure as he!! Know what wounds look like when a bullet expands or tumbles or NOT.

You like them fine, but don't try and tell me what my experiences are when you absolutely were not there to witness the results.

Well I see small exits with Cooper bullets and massive internal damage and use them all the time
Seems you think you know more than you do about analyzing would channels

Plus how much more wounding do you need after DEAD

What is the difference of "absolutely not there" and plain ol' not there?

Your lack of comprehension is still showing itself. I doubt one more time will make any difference with you but I will give it the old college try.

I process my own game. I always do an assessment of the bullet path. There was LITTLE internal damage done along the wound channel and LITTLE bruised bloodshot meat. The internal organs were NOT turned to soup but had a small wound channel through them. Every animal required another shot. None fell at the shot.

Again you love copper bullets, I get it. My experience and those of numerous other member here and some other forums that I visit shows that not everyone has positive experiences with copper. Get over it.

Comprehension has nothing to do with my post. Simply put you are full of BS.

I prosecess mine and I kill them with COPPER bullets and your claims do not meet the smell tests.


We have a 6 deer 🦌 limit here and I seldom use Amy bullets that isn't copper

Now I hope your Comprehension can comprehend

TheKid;
Morning sir or at least it's still a foggy morning here in southern BC, regardless I trust you and your fine family are well.

With the understanding that all my comments on monometal bullets are based on results on local whitetail and mulie bucks only, I'd offer some of our observations.

In about 2008 when the girls had just started hunting I'd been experimenting with monometal bullets enough that we switched to them exclusively. We've used Barnes TSX, TTSX and Hornady GMX in a few different rifles. Also as other respondents have stated, we process all our own game so that helps form opinions on what the bullet did inside the animal.

As well as velocity, I believe that the bullet RPM affects how well monometal bullets do or do not open up. We've seen this in a Swede carbine which only pushes a 130gr TSX to 2650fps but we've not had a single buck stop one. A couple were what we'd consider fairly far away, but since we weren't using a range finder all ranges are estimates only.

Apologies for those who've seen this photo before, here are 3 of the 4 monometal bullets we've found. Left to right they are a .257" 80gr TTSX from a .250AI, .277" 130gr GMX from a .270 and a .308" 168gr TSX from a .308 Norma. The 168gr TSX traveled the furthest through the animal.



Somehow I lost a photo of a .277" 130gr TTSX out of the same .270 and it's interesting to note that we found two bullets out of it and that it had a slower than usual twist barrel as well as being a somewhat "slow" barrel so they were maybe 2850fps and slow RPM from it's 11.75" twist barrel.

On perfect broadside shots if one avoids the shoulders, I'd say that a cup and core will kill a buck quicker than a monometal.

If somehow one botches up the first shot and the only shot one has on the wounded animal is either rear facing or quartering away where we'll need to plow through the grass bag first is where the monometal bullets shine.

There's a whole bunch of reasons here where we'll want to stop the animal where its standing, mostly because we're in the cliffs - we're always hunting mountains here but some places obviously are big swamps or valleys. The plus for us is it's all public land so there's typically nothing other than time and the mountain in the way of us tracking down something we hit.

I will admit that sometimes that has been enough that we have not found what has been hit, but where it was hit is impossible to know for sure.

Lastly as you said, they're "easier on meat to some extent" in that there aren't as many secondary wounds that we'll see when lead goes into different places.

I'd say as a broad statement that the wound channel is longer with a monometal but usually smaller in diameter.

Anyways sir, that's been our experience with them thus far - again on whitetail and mulie bucks only.

All the best to you all.

Dwayne

On average a cup and core probably has a slight advantage on straight rib cage shot. But i shot a deer this year with a 180 TTSX straight rib cage and the deer went half a body length. That's rather good in my opinion

Very well written 👍 ! Thanks! memtb

BC30cal is an excellent writer and has accurate info

Dwayne,

In a world that has become increasingly uncivil, especially in regard to differing opinions, I always enjoy reading your posts. They're always based in real world experience and are presented without the intent to provoke offense. You're also not unduly offended when someone disagrees with you.

I hope you have an excellent day and that you and your family are well. I'll look forward to your next post.

Frank

Darn big cat. Congratulations.

Stop it SS.
Although I’m probably more unhappy than you about Colorado being invaded by lifestyle immigrants and their politics, the science behind lead toxicity, the levels of lead toxicity in raptors, and the effect of lead toxicity on raptors, is sound.
No different than the lead shot debate 35+ years ago. Deja Vu all over again…..

Yea your the man........NOT.

Reasons to:
Health concerns
Your gun shoots them well
Your shots stay mostly under 500 ish yards give or take

Reasons not to:
Your rifle lacks the speed needed to make them expand
Lousy BC’s
You shoot/hunt long range
You like lead in your pencil

Maybe raptors and water fowl, but not humans. As far as I know birds grind their food in he gizzards. Not so with humans. Lead dust in your lungs will kill you. Not so much, lead particles ingested and passed thru the intestines. I have stacked tons of lead shot and bricks for radiation shielding and have eaten lead killed rabbits, squirrels, elk deer, antelope, drank water from lead pipes when young. Many cities still deliver water in lead pipes, (Colorado Springs being one of them), many homes still have soldered copper pipe in them. Asbestos is killing me, but not lead. Only have to do a simple search of hunters
using lead bullets to see there is no viable proof. Here is one such article. https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/f...ldlife-separating-science-from-advocacy. Another farce brought on by the anti's, about like gas stoves being dangerous now.

Dwayne,
I too always appreciate your posts!

I have a couple friends who I call “copper loonys” and they have been using copper bullets almost exclusively for more than a decade. Mostly out of SA chamberings. Whenever they can draw a tag they often hunt two or more states each fall.

They have come to like the E Tips for performance on game, although they think the ETips can be a bit more picky when developing loads.

Thanks. 46 inches from nose to the tip of the tail. Biggest bobcat I have ever seen.

For all those saying that copper bullets do not expand I'd like you to look at this photo. That is the exit wound on a pronghorn buck shot with a 130 gr Barnes TTSX loaded with Varget Powder for a velocity of 2896 fps (per the Barnes data) and it cut an exit hole bigger than a 50 cent piece. Bullet hit the lower lungs and the top of the heart. Both lungs were shredded and the heart was completely detached from the arteries and veins at the top. What more can you ask for?

Lol……!

My only reason for not shooting copper full time is the amount & comfort I have for c&c or partitions. If I were starting over I’d go copper 100%

LMAO 😆 , you are the only one claiming that they don't open and don't inflict major damage

As Smokepole referenced, I've had at least three mono failures (by "failure" I mean non-expansion), and combining friends experiences that number goes into the dozens. Mono's do "fail" more consistently than standard bullets. However, as I've gotten older, and hopefully a bit more thoughtful, I've come around to the thinking expressed by Ben and Casey above. The science is "in" and is essentially irrefutable. If you like staring at silica below ground level, go for it - I'll take the science.

Having said all that, all things being equal, I am fairly certain lead/copper bullets kill more quickly and consistently than mono bullets. OTOH, dead is dead even if a dozen yards further. If I were younger and starting out I'd run mono's in everything. Since I have thousand's of lead/copper bullets on hand and am over 60 years old, I doubt I'll change what I do.

Mono's are the future and rightfully so.

Oh really, why don't you PM a member here named Brad, for starters.

I don't need to PM Brad I kill more deer per year, since we a 6 deer limit. I posted that already

How much is needed? Below is a LRX I dug out of the ground after a hundred yard rib shot on a deer. MV was a sedate 2675 fps. Exit wound indicated it expanded before hitting terra firma.

Those expand in elk flesh too.

Brad,
I’ve had, and witnessed, the original X Bullets fail to expand (or at least appear to) but plastic tipped copper bullets have all appeared to open up, penetrate, and track as reliably as Partitions.

Is that what you are referring to or did you have a different kind of failure?

I have witnessed and experienced failures to penetrate and/or breakup with c&c bullets, included bonded bullets, that are favorites here on the ‘fire.

The thing with monos is that they seem not to fragment to the level that traditional c&c or partition type bullets do thereby limiting their killing power to the intact portion of bullet itself. That can become a variable in and of itself should the actual bullet expand less or more depending on resistance provided by the target. Traditional bullets can’t help but lose weight & enhance killing power by creating many micro-wound channels & almost creating the ability to be more predictable given a certain shot placement in expectation of this occurrence.

Penetration is another conversation and this is what we are all currently told matters most…until it’s doesn’t. How much penetration, given each game animal, do we actually need? For example: 20”+ penetration on a whitetail seems unnecessary.

I’ve killed probably 30 bucks with a 6mm 85gr BTSP & even more with a 130gr Speer SP that never moved out of their hoof prints. I’ve probably only shot 15-20 animals with a mono but none of them responded like I described above - often running off a bit but mostly all feature an exit. Most of the time an animal running off becomes its own problem both for follow up shots and/or retrieval.

I accept & agree that monos have their place - we should each choose a bullet that gets suits the shot we expect to take at the range we expect to take the shot at to obtain the cleanest possible, most humane kill.

*Scientifically I fully understand that my experience is mathematically unimportant and the scale of my experience is painfully small - BUT - if I need a Mono I will use it. If I need a c&c I will use it. No bullet can possibly cover all variables despite marketing hype claiming otherwise.

Just my .02 & fully accept my bias.

alpinecrick;
Good afternoon to you sir, I hope you're getting weather you need on the West Slope and you're well.

Thanks very much for the kind words - and to the others who were gracious to me as well, I do appreciate it and will do my best to deserve them in future posts.

Regarding Nosler E-Tips, a friend and hunting/shooting partner uses them in a couple rifles, one a .308 in which he's running the 150gr and he's happy with them.

Honestly over the past several years up here component supply has been variable at best to the point where we'll use what we can get.

That's very much one reason we're still running TSX in a couple rifles instead of TTSX, because we found they worked and I bought what I hoped was at least a decade or two worth of them. Now to be sure we just use them for hunting and confirming zero, then fool with bullets we are able to find for other practice.

There's many roads to Mecca and all that for sure alpinecrick and this just happens to be the one we've ended up taking is all.

Thanks again for the kind words and all the best in the upcoming week.

Dwayne

So do you think maybe we blame some of the older iterations of mono’s and continue holding the grudge on todays well made bullets. I don’t have near the amount of kills as some and I do think in deer monos aren’t needed but man the ones that have been shot seemed fine. There are a few that I think way further than the should’ve gone but they’re still dead at the end of the trail.

I think arguing about what another guy chooses is akin to the my 30-06 kills better than a 270…. The sheer numbers of animals and combos to prove a darned thing would take 100 of us hunting non stop to prove anything, even if that was enough not to mention the sheer crazy amount of combinations.

Dwayne’s post about RPMs seeming to help with them is music to my ears and kinda what I’ve thought to myself for awhile.

Just my thought though.

I’m looking forward to hearing how CRS’s 1-8 twisted 270 works for him with TTSXs. I’m kinda betting it’ll be a massive blender.

#heretic

beretzs;
Good afternoon my cyber friend, I hope the day in your part of the world is treating you acceptably and you're all well.

For sure and certain I've been a proponent of projectile RPM playing a role in how the bullet opens and then the resulting tissue damage for a fairly long time now.

Here is a link to the RPM calculator that I've used to come up with some rough numbers.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/calculating-bullet-rpm-spin-rates-stability/

About 10 years back we were seeing that the tissue damage resulting from our daughter's 6.5 Swede using 130gr TSX was equal or greater than the damage from the .270 which was also shooting 130gr TTSX or GMX bullets out of, despite the fact that the .270 started them out nearly 250fps faster.

Here's a thread from that timeframe.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt.../tissue-damage-270-vs-6-5x55#Post9248055

Regarding CRS's 1:8 twist .270, I recall my late cyber friend BobinNH made a point of telling me his .270's were running 1:9 barrels and he was looking at trying faster twists in the future. If he did or not before he passed, I'm not positive.

For sure some will be frustrated by others such as myself who admittedly enjoy minutia and diving down rabbit holes. Some will say "killing a deer isn't that complicated" and that's certainly true too.

That said, folks wired in the way I appear to have been from the factory like to know the "why" when they see something, though I'm the first to admit it's not been an inexpensive way to live sometimes, nor has it always led me to firm conclusions. Often more questions usually...

All the best to you all.

Dwayne

Bob / RinB was the fellas that got me started on what 10-15 years ago was considered crazy amounts of twist.

Today it’s a bit more common.

RPMs don’t hurt bullet performance and to my eyes they make great bullets work even better.

Hope you’re having a helluva good evening.

I had the original X, Failsafe and a TTSX (yes, tipped) fail to open. Friends mostly experienced failures with the TSX. So yeah, failures with mono's 1.0 and 2.0 were understandable, but a TTSX failing to open is another thing. Still, I think despite the occasional failure of mono 3.0's to open, they're still a better choice than lead/copper bullets for all the reason's you and Ben stated.

Hahaha. Not trying to be but still might be 👍🏼😜

I have to fully admit that the health benefits sure support Monos - I just don’t personally have 100% confidence in them. I’ll
Attribute this attitude to me not having enough experience with Monos.

Long way of saying that I’m open minded

Me too!
I have a rpm theory, but not enough in field experience to ponder here yet. Lest I get crucified by those that "know".

The fast twist is going to get a 129 LRX load worked up in addition to the heavies.

The LRX has a sleeker ogive than the TTSX and the current TSX.
The first TSX's had a similar ogive.

I want in on the blender effect!

I've taken deer 🦌 and Antelope that have a smallish exit in the hide and when I opened them up the vitals looked like a BLENDER went through them

I have a 10 twist 35 Whelen and an 8 twist 300 RUM

I'd never own a 308 with less than a 10 twist

Your results and mine differ, but I've never shot anything with a X bullet. The Barnes 168gr ttsx and 175gr lrx destroy the internal organs and don't really destroy the shoulder bones and there's very little blood shot meat. We were kind of thinking that the bullet created a vacuum or something because of the blood splatter coming out of the exit wound.

Just picked up 3 boxes of 338cal TTSX Barnes at the gas station today

BWalker,

You have stated this before in other threads, but the latest research indicates that yes, blood-testing is very helpful, despite blood leaving the blood system within 30 days after exposure.

This has been determined by the development of an effective (and quick) way to measure lead-level in bones--and this shows a strong correlation with blood levels IF they're checked reasonably frequently.

Also, the studies I've mentioned in my articles have mentioned large samples between large populations of humans, especially the European study that compared hunters versus non-hunters. Game studies have also shown interesting results, especially from animals during hunting seasons.

But my main point is that no, blood-test for lead levels are not "about worthless for determining you bodies lead load," whether in humans or other animals. Which is why so many studies, both on humans and animals, depend at least partly on them.

Additionally, my data-base of animals taken with "copper" bullets is over 200 animals, dating back to around 1990. No, they don't kill as quickly as SOME lead-cores, but the results from the past dozen years don't show nearly as much difference as earlier bullets.

Around 150 of those animals were either taken by me or Eileen. We use far more "copper" bullets these days, mostly because they kill quickly enough, without ruining as much meat, on average, as lead-cores. Over the past five years we've taken around animals up through big elk with 'em, and none has gone over 50 yards before falling.

I hear you. I don’t know that I’d ever have enough data, but I don’t really care much, but I can say with bullets that’ll hold the RPMs the insides of those animals is literally purée.

The old Bitterroot bullets just are like death on elk for me. Maybe it’s [bleep] ass luck, but if you stick to Steigers RPM guidance they are amazing.

Bob and again, Rick D seemed to believe as well.

A 175 BBC from an 8 twist over 3k is a giant killer in my book. Love the Partitions but wound channels didn’t compare.

I don’t wanna get called on the carpet as it’s less than 10 of each but that’s enough for me, I’m not a scientist and don’t care that someone doesn’t see the same. I’ll live in bliss with my 7 MASHBURN blender gun

Scotty - I need to learn more about what you are sharing. I’ll have to look into Steigers - It makes total sense about rpm. I’ll have to look back at my notes relating bullets performance & twist on the guns used.

This is a great topic to explore!

BC30cal,

I believe faster rpm increases tissue damage.

The other factor we must consider is bullet integrity. This is well proven, that faster rpm stresses a bullet more.
How this applies to lighter constructed hunting bullets and in field performance on big game is unknown to me.

The big question. At what point, if ever, will rpm's cause a hunting bullet to not perform as it should?

So using the rpm calculator you posted. A 1:8 barrel will be spinning a 3000fps 270 bullet at 270,000 rpm over the 216,000 rpm of a standard 1:10 twist.

A more drastic example would be 1:14 twist 22-250 vs a 1:8. 195,000rpm vs 342,000rpm. We have killed a bunch of deer/antelope with the 1:14. But I do not even have a load worked up with the 53gr TSX in the new 1:8 barrel.

Would there be a noticeable effect on game? Would rotational energy take away from penetration? Have never recovered a 53gr TSX out of an animal using the 1:14 twist. Would we suddenly start recovering bullets?

I do not know for certain.

With RPM based upon twist I suppose that when accuracy is lost on either side of the twist spectrum performance would be compromised. So there must be a range of acceptable twists for any given bullet length & caliber. Velocity would play out in terms of how fast one could spin a bullet based upon its design. Each bullet design having its optimal twist maximizing blender effect & velocity based on individual bullets.

So new bullet boxes might read:

Minimal velocity for expansion: 1600fps
Explodes in twists over 1:3” at velocity over 2750fps
Optimal blender: 1:6
Loses stability: 1:10

*Optimal impact of 2200fps in a 1:6 twist results in perfect performance.

John, if you ingested lead today it would be out of your blood in 6 months or typically much less. It would be in your bones for decades. As such what does a blood test tell you other than you were recently exposed? You might read this.
https://labs.icahn.mssm.edu/toddlab/bone-lead-test/
FWIW they can also use a new type of Xray to analyze bone lead levels now where previously a bone biopsy was required.
Regardless I don't want to feed myself or my family any lead, period.

You don't seem to grasp the problem with ingesting lead. It's not acute lead toxicity. It's chronic issues such as cognitive decline. And ingesting lead particles does result in lead entering your blood stream. That's not even debatable.

CRS;
Good evening to you sir, I hope the weekend and the weather in the Black Hills behaved for you.

As a bit of a further back story, when we first started playing with that Swede carbine, I'd built it as a hunting rifle with fairly low recoil for my father who'd just had a pace maker installed. This was about '85 and I didn't have a chronograph then, so found out about some of the speeds later on when my good wife bought me one of the first red Shooting Chrony chronographs to hit the shelves in a store up in Kelowna.

Without looking into the notes and going off of memory, we managed to blow up 120gr Nosler Solid Base and Sierra Game Kings on local bucks. The Sierra didn't make it to the second lung on a broadside shot, just came completely unglued in the first 4".

We finally found that 140gr Partitions and Hornady Spires worked not too bad in it. I recall being surprised at the damage of one spike mulie Dad got with it and in my hunting diary noted "tissue damage similar to '06 180gr Hornady SP load".

All that to say that my strong hunch is there is a point where rpm will have a bullet not work.

Oh, should mention too that in a conversation with greydog on here who is a respected gunsmith, he mentioned that the Swede barrels had deep grooves and that seemed to tear apart cup and core bullets as well, but they typically did well with monometal bullets.

My original coyote bomber was a 26" .22-250AI with a 1:14" twist because that's what we did back then. I'd love to hear what you see with the 1:8" twist version if you're so inclined.

To your question if there'd be a noticeable difference, I think that there likely would, but it wouldn't be a huge one is my hunch.

Again I'd be interested to hear if the faster twist has you starting to find bullets and what you see in terms of tissue damage.

Lastly sir, I respect and very much echo your last sentence, "I do not know for certain"..

Me too sir, me too.

Best to you.

Dwayne

Hah! That's quite a gas station when you can pickup bullets!

I have used solid copper bullets. In rifles that have a high MV, they can work great, if your rifle likes them. There are lots of reasons not to use them, however. The most important reason is personal choice. If I don't want to use them, for any reason under the sun, that's good enough.

As for other states following the lead of liberal states that have outlawed lead, not likely in most states. The entire concept is nothing but an anti gun ploy to reduce the availability of affordable ammunition. Raptors are dying by the truckload in wind farms and the hippies are still ignoring that and crying about lead ammo.

It might not be up to states if it's done federally.

2 things. Your first sentence = nail, head. If you've followed MD for long he has covered how many bullets have changed over time ( most usefully I might add!)

The second thing is, where do I sign up to be on the "hunting non-stop" test board?!

I'd be all in on that for sure!

In thinking about the rpm theories…..I think that there may be great merit to this. I’ll go a bit farther and suggest that many people go to light, IMO too light, bullets when going to monos. The light bullets, once expanded will lose their rotation much faster than a heavier bullet…..thereby lessening/reducing the internal damage to the animal!

That’s my story….and I’m stick’n to it! memtb

BC30cal,

I will certainly report back. Do not know if the extensive opportunities to test the 1:8 are as readily available.

Here is some background.

Twenty years ago or so when we started using the 22-250, deer populations were extremely high and antlerless tags were abundant along with youth tags. The 22 cal mono certainly did the job without excessive meat damage. There were quite a few years where double digit deer numbers were taken. The tag situation has changed with deer numbers down and my boys all grown up.

My motivation back then was much different, that was a time when everyone "KNEW" that 22 caliber rifles were too small for deer. I was out to prove a point so to speak.

Through all my years of hunting, I will always prefer a tougher bullet. Would choose over penetration, over bullet blow up every time. I like mono's, as can be seen by my extensive use of them.

I have only had one hunting experience with mono's that made me pause. It was with the original Barnes X in the 90's, 140gr in my 270. Horrible to find a suitable load. Took it elk hunting in Colorado and shot an elk running through the timber. Only saw a flinch at the shot, followed the tracks through the snow. Was starting to wonder if. No blood until after I saw her piled up. Felt like she went an awful long ways, but do not recall. Did it pencil through or not? Do not remember thinking it penciled, but was not impressed with animal reaction at the shot. But hindsight has me wondering. I was still pretty green as a hunter, my first mountain hunt, first elk hunt, etc.


I later tried the XLC bullets with bad results on paper. Had given up on monos until I ran into the guy from Superior Ammo at the local range. They had just started loading the TSX's and was duly impressed with them. He said I should give them one more try. I did, have not looked back.

I had a Tikka 1-8 22-250 for a few years. From 40 grain Ballistic Tips to 75 AMax and ELDs and 77 TMKs shot excellent with almost no real issue getting accurate ammo.

The 77 TMK and 62 grain TTSX were rippers and kinda what I defaulted to. The 62 could probably punch elk legs. That bullet was like a drill bit and always showed good expansion on everything from woodchucks to deer.