Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles ATF pistol brace rule update

As any freedom loving American would guess, ANY AR with a wrist brace will be considered a SBR requiring owner registration.

https://www.ammoland.com/2023/01/atf-unveils-pistol-brace-rule-everything-is-an-sbr/#axzz7qN9XhmY1

the ATF can't wave a tax but they can make law ...... 🧐🧐🧐

As before blame Chevron decision and SCOTUS


Chevron U.S.A., Inc. v. Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc., 467 U.S. 837, was a landmark case in which the United States Supreme Court established a legal test to determine whether to defer to a government agency’s interpretation of a law created by Congress in which the agency “fills in the blanks” (administers) without limitations.

From the linked article, ATF can't waive it, isn't collecting it, but it's still owed. Enter 87,000 IRS agents and ready-made list of who didn't pay it. Hmmmm....

IF we assume, and that’s one big honkin’ IF, that there’s any logical reason to restrict pistols with shoulder stocks or SBRs in the first place, then the position the ATF is taking on them makes sense in that context. The claims by users and the industry that the braces exist to enable the disabled, and my particular favorite, disabled veterans, to shoot handguns, is silly on its face, as anyone who’s spent any time on YouTube can attest. I’ve watched dozens, maybe hundreds of videos where people are shooting pistols with braces, and I’ve yet to see anyone that looks disabled in any of them, and few if any where they shoot them any way except from the shoulder. Same goes for what I’ve seen at the range. In “common use”, they’re SBRs (with short stocks), despite the claims to the contrary.

Equally silly however, is that we’re still saddled with a nearly 90 year-old law written during the gangland era to address stuff being used by criminals like Clyde Barrow (chopped BAR), and guns that are long out of production and now almost priceless relics like Lugers and Broomhandle Mausers, plus sawed-off shotguns. That law deprives us of the use of some very utilitarian firearms, while as usual not affecting criminals one whit. Somehow too, we’re now permitted what looks suspiciously like sawed-off shotguns, as long as we call them “pistols”, kinda-sorta. Wonder how long before they take a swing at those.

The real problem is that the Congress has abandoned its responsibility to write clear, sensible legislation and also to defend its proper position as a co-equal branch of the government. I have a sneaking suspicion that the ATF may win this round unless the courts find that they allowed the braces to come into “common use” with their earlier back-door lawmaking. That would cause some heads to explode in D.C.

ATF makes the gun laws.

False: Congress makes federal gun laws; ATF enforces them.

The most important thing you said is "in common use". In Caetano, SCOTUS ruled the 200,000 stun guns in circulation constituted "common use". Estimates range between 10 and 40 million braces in use, that's "common use". Additionally, the ATF is now equating braced pistols with SBR's, which is a tacit admission SBR's are "in common use". Per Bruin, once something's "in common use" it can't be "dangerous AND unusual". That which is in common use can't at the same time be "unusual". Therefore SBR's are protected arms and it now becomes the burden of the state to prove there were equivalent laws in 1791 that would justify the regulation of SBR's.

Spoiler alert: 1934 is not 1791.

I think the AFT may have stepped in it Bigly. I suspect there are judges in the Northern district of Texas and the 5th Circuit that would agree with me.

Tell that to the ATF.

yes following tax law , but breaking law by making laws .

Regrettably, when someone in the Executive Branch steps in it, bigly or just a little bit, there’s generally no consequence to speak of, by design. They just nod their pointy heads and start working on the next overreach.

You can say one thing for them; they ain’t quitters!🐀🐀🐀🐀🐀🐀🐀🐀🐀🐀🐀

I'm torn on what I want to do. I'm in the middle of building a AR pistol. Have both the brace and standard spring tube. If I'm gonna go sbr, then it's getting a standard stock. Otherside of me says the govt doesn't need to know what I have and to keep it a pistol.

They must have tough stomachs eh.

Lawsuits will start flying this week. I'd be patent, see how things shake out.

As far as I can tell, the only thing you need to think about now is making sure receiver(s) is(are) in your Gun Trust, if you have one, before this publishes. Further, if you intend to use the special braced pistol to SBA Form 1, you'll want to make sure the pistol was either registered with the MSP or that you're exempt. This could be due to Opinion 7403 or otherwise.

https://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2010s/op10383.htm

There are hassles with an SBR that you avoid with a pistol. One of them, the engraving requirement, is being waived. How this makes any sense, who knows.

This.

I plan to sit back and wait.
My question is how do they know if you have one or not? The brace does not have a serial number so how do they know who has one and who does not? Granted you take it to a public range and ATF is there, they will know, or someone turns you in, but other than that....

Did you buy it in person for cash?
Not using any membership deal or other ID?
Not in conjunction with a gun or registered frame?

Yes and you are likely good.

No?
They can find you.

Where is that ATF chart at showing your options ? How do they know you did not remove the brace or put a longer barrel on it?

Here's an update on why this is a trap.

Short version is the ATF processed their own background checks. If a check stays open for 88 days it's an automatic denial, and per the ATF Deputy Director, will results in "Enforcement action" for posession of an unregistered SBR, up to 10 years in camp fed.

I'm going to wait and see as well. I have a .300 BLK pistol with a fixed position brace that takes tools to remove or adjust. I will convert to a rifle, before I SBR it. I don't want to have to ask the govt permission yearly to be able to take it to the OK deer lease.

My thoughts as well. My inclination is to stick a 16 inch barrel on mine and forget about it.

I put a 16" upper on mine, and put the little upper away.
We'll see how this turns out.
I ain't telling, or askin permission to do anything.

Would removing and “disposing” of the brace bring the pistol into compliance? Asking for a friend

Yes.

But I don’t think it will stand up in court, ATF is catching flak from congress already, they don’t like being sidestepped.

Well, I hope you're right, but I'm not so sure that congress won't accommodate them.

At any rate, given their posted deadline dates there needs to be a court case for an injunction real quick like................in the right jurisdiction for a favorable decision.

MM

Yes - they’re going after anything attached to the back end that’s more than a short buffer tube required to make the DI pistol run.

If it’s gas piston or blow back driven by other means than by a rearward buffer and spring, and there’s no need for anything past the end of the receiver - it’s got to come off.

Suits are coming. Here’s the first I’ve seen.

Here

Bump stocks were stupid but served a useful purpose, they set presedence. It’s just a matter of time.

I don’t have a brace on mine, got a smooth pistol tube with a foam cover, use a cheek weld to shoot and it works better than I first thought it would. But I only have the pistol lower so I can travel out of state and won’t be any confusion if some Barney Fife type pulls me over. I have another lower waiting on approval, it wears a real stock, braces suck. Always wanted an SBR with a can so I played by the rules, they gotta do the same.

last month thr 5th circuit court of appeals struck down the bump stock ban

Anyone see advantages to paying for the stamp instead of taking the freebie?

Hold the wasting $200 comment but I wonder if there is any category difference by paying for the stamp.

I do see a distinct advantage and getting a pin and weld suppressor to bring a barrel to length and not have to do an SBR stamp.

ldholton, “ last month thr 5th circuit court of appeals struck down the bump stock ban”

I guess I wasn’t clear, that was the presedence I was referring to.

I’m not sure if there’s a real downside to taking the free stamp. I’ve been told they are setting the free stamp applications aside for now so it doesn’t slow down the system until they see how many will actually apply and how many new reviewers they will need. You can keep the brace on as long as you can show that you have applied for amnesty but you cannot install a real stock until you are approved.

By paying for the real form 1, they are supposed to take up to 60 days to approve. Average is 30 days. Mine went submitted/in process on the 11th of January although I e-filed 12-21-22 it said submitted/pending research. Not sure when the time starts but taking in the holidays and everything that has gone on, I figure I’ve got a little more time to wait.

I bought a Colt 6933 upper and wanted to use my Colt M4 lower so I paid the money, had it engraved and will have an all Colt SBR. Not sure there’s any real benefit but it’s what I wanted.

I have three lowers that I could file for the free stamp on but right now I don’t see me needing another SBR but I’ve got a little time to decide for sure.

For those that bought/built a pistol with a brace just to keep from paying the $200 to have a true SBR, this could be a positive (ignoring the whole need for a tax stamp, etc, for an SBR in the first place).

I have both, and waiting to see how this plays out for a bit before deciding which route I take (apply or rebuild). I do know a few who have already applied.

I can’t see any real advantage by going the normal route and paying for the stamp vs applying under the amnesty route.

I don't have one, so I don't have to deal with it, but the biggest issue that I see is, like any NFA article, you now own it forever or can only sell it to another NFA holder.

Unl,ss I am misunderstanding....................this schitt is getting more complicated by the day.

MM

still violates the 10 amendment! if nobody complies it will be unenforceable.

I’m certainly not an NFA expert so check out everything for yourself but, on an SBR you can remove the short barrel and ask the ATF to remove the lower from the registry and it becomes a regular AR or lower again.

But that’s why I did the Colt lower, I will never get rid of it anyway. Didn’t want to be tied to an Anderson or other generic lower.

I also have my daughter named in my will so she can file a form 5 (I think) and all my NFA stuff goes to her without having to repay the tax. This particular lower was part of the gun she killed her first few deer with, it’ll have my name on the side and hopefully it’ll mean something to her.

And worst case you strip it down to the lower and you are out ~$100 (or a bit more for a big name lower). My first SBR is on a Noveske lower, but I built my pistols on good quality, mid-tier stripped lowers that were $100-130.

That doesn't make any sense.

When you log in to Eforms, the free stamp is on a new site. They're definitely being sorted into two different boxes.

There's gotta be a reason for that. I'd suspect because they anticipate delaying one box, waiting to see how this will all shake out. If you REALLY want one, it would be worth the $200 to get in and approved before the 120 day free period is over.

To clarify, you only have to have a form submitted in the 120 days to take advantage of “amnesty”. They know they will not get everyone approved in the 120 days. The other thing is the 88 day background check, that only starts after they have started on your application. If you can’t be vetted in 88 days, you probably have bigger problems.

Again the only thing about paying is you should get cleared quicker and change out that POS brace with a real stock. Instead of waiting months or years stuck with your brace.

You have to engrave an SBR lower, don’t have to if you’re filing braced pistol free amnesty route. Unless they change that up too.

They’re just trying to get some sort of count on braces out there, and enough PII on individuals with them to enforce. It’s BS as it sits.

Entrapment anyone?

And who is going to enforce this illegal rule???? If there are any volunteers I'll send them my address ; )

They are approving the free tax stamps as “conditionally approved”, moving them along at a decent pace. Once they get approved, one can replace the brace with a real stock. However, don’t throw away your brace because if the rule gets overturned, you will have to go back to the brace and it will go back to being a pistol with all the limitations that goes with it. (No VG, magnified optics, etc.)

A paid form 1 is taking about 30-60 days to process. Once it’s done, it’s a real SBR and goes with all the SBR rules. I have a pistol lower set back with a pistol tube, (so there’s no mistaking it), for traveling out of state. But I do love my SBR, even without the can.

Everyone will just have to make their own decisions and live with them. But the clock is ticking…

[quote=antelope_sniper]Here's an update on why this is a trap.

Short version is the ATF processed their own background checks. If a check stays open for 88 days it's an automatic denial, and per the ATF Deputy Director, will results in "Enforcement action" for posession of an unregistered SBR, up to 10 years Quote


still say this is a set up

You know those 88 days don’t start till they start on your application.

The sky is falling! Please send money!!

The thought of something that was perfectly fine now being subject to NFA regulation, all because some bureaucrats waved a magic wand to appease their gun grabbing political masters, rankles the hell out of me.

I may change my mind at some point, but right now I have no intention of playing their bullshìt games. The way I feel about it at present, I'll cut the damn chamber in half with a grinder and toss the barrel in the trash before I play their tax stamp song and dance.

The whole thing is frickin ridiculous. I certainly hope the various lawsuits succeed.

+1

It's all about the agenda

I’ll pay the postage, just send me the short barrels! Only decent ones though please…