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So, let's take this to the next step for those that think wind flags are something only high end target rifles need. Or that the only thing I work with is BR rifles...which couldn't be further from the truth. The majority of what I work with is warmed over factory stuff with possibly a good aftermarket barrel and well.done bedding and scope mounting.

This is my Interarms Mini Mark X in 223. The chamber is huge, the throat so long that the bullet doesn't get a sniff of the rifling and the inside of the barrel looks like 5 miles of bad railroad track. But after a lot of work, it will shoot solid 5 shot 1/2" groups with 748 and a Nosler 40 gr. BTip in any sort of reasonable conditions:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

This 3 shot target was shot at 100 yds. with that gun and load. Again, the flags angle for each shot was the same but the wind speed was purposely ignored. Winds were somewhat sporty on the bottom end and fairly nautical on the high side. Clearly, the load is solid as there's almost no vertical. The amount of deflection is what any good ballistics program will tell you it should be with the muzzle velocity and the B.C. of the bullet. Clearly, the wind is moving the bullet exactly how much it should:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next, let's look at something in between a well tuned BR rig that can shoot big .0's and little .1's and a light barrelled .5" gun.

This is my 22BR built on a Kelbly Atlas 700 foot print action. Chamber is a no neck turn, barrel is a Remington Sendero contour Kreiger. In short, it's an extremely accurate 'dog gun...which is what it was built for. It's a reliable .2" gun for 5 shot groups in any sort of decent conditions.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Both of these were shot on the same day with the same exact load. Again, windflag position was the same for both groups and the speed was purposely ignored for the group testing the L-R 'push'. I gave the scope some vertical clicks to better quarter the black border of the target for the 'push test'. And once again...not surprisingly wink...the bullet deflection is exactly what the math says it should be.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Good shootin' smile -Al


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Al,

Excellent illustration of the effect of wind on bullets!

One thing I have noticed for many years is that many--if not most--rifles shooters apparently believe that heavier bullets are deflected less in wind than lighter bullets, regardless of other factors. I mentioned this in an article on .17-caliber rifle cartridges I recently submitted to the Gun Digest annual: Back when the .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire was first introduced, many local varmint-shooter "theorists" proclaimed that its little bullets would drift "too much" in the wind--certainly more than a .22 Rimfire Magnum's. Which was not true, because the .17's bullets not only started out faster but had higher ballistic coefficients--the two factors that affect wind-drift--than any .22 Magnum ammo.

Was also on a deer/pig hunt in Texas a few years ago with a bunch of other writers. The main purpose was to test a new bolt-action hunting rifle, and the firearms company had brought around a dozen, half chambered in .243 Winchester and the other half in .308 Winchester. We sighted 'em all in on a 100-yard range, which of course didn't have any wind-flags-- and also of course some bullets drifted a little in the mild but gusty breeze. One of us commented on this, and the head guide for the ranch (who was overseeing the sight-in) firmly proclaimed that while .243 bullets drifted in the wind, .308 bullets did not.

The factory loads used in the rifles were from the same manufacturer, the .243s with 100-grain spitzers and the .308s with 150-grain spitzers. The ballistic coefficients AND muzzle velocities were both very close, so drift would be almost identical. But this guy was absolutely certain the 150 .30s wouldn't drift at all, and the 100-grain .243s would....


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AL -

Who makes decent 30 cal. Bullets for BR ?

I’ve been using TommE’s for my Creed & soon to be Dasher, but given lead times I need to order some 30’s and he doesn’t make them.

My Bat action is running late…. ARGH… or I’d be building my Dasher already.. all the parts are sitting there - it’s killing me every time I walk by them.

Mike

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Al, Excellent illustration of the effect of wind on bullets!

One thing I have noticed for many years is that many--if not most--rifles shooters apparently believe that heavier bullets are deflected less in wind than lighter bullets, regardless of other factors. I mentioned this in an article on .17-caliber rifle cartridges I recently submitted to the Gun Digest annual: Back when the .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire was first introduced, many local varmint-shooter "theorists" proclaimed that its little bullets would drift "too much" in the wind--certainly more than a .22 Rimfire Magnum's. Which was not true, because the .17's bullets not only started out faster but had higher ballistic coefficients--the two factors that affect wind-drift--than any .22 Magnum ammo.

Thank you, John....appreciate it. smile

The big case .17's I was using for pelt hunting fox in the early '90's are the very cartridges that caused me to question and dig into the truth of things. What I was seeing on target and in the field just didn't jive with the commonly circulated 'truths' that had just been regurgitated over the years.

Once I figured out that exterior ballistics is really simple (B.C. and velocity), everything got a lot easier. wink It's unfortunate than many of the 'regurg'd' stuff hasn't had the proverbial stake driven through the heart.

I'm still waiting for those modern bullets (whatever those are) that come with a little slip of paper in the box saying 'Notice: These bullets are exempt from the laws of Quantum Physics'. crazy That the thing that should be the first to consider is the last thing to accept is a peek into the strange world of the human psyche. crazy


Good shootin' -Al


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Originally Posted by Spotshooter
AL -

Who makes decent 30 cal. Bullets for BR ?

I’ve been using TommE’s for my Creed & soon to be Dasher, but given lead times I need to order some 30’s and he doesn’t make them.

My Bat action is running late…. ARGH… or I’d be building my Dasher already.. all the parts are sitting there - it’s killing me every time I walk by them.

Mike


https://bibullets.com/products/



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I kind of figured he was using Robinett’s.

But wanted to check

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Originally Posted by Spotshooter
I kind of figured he was using Robinett’s.

But wanted to check

No....I make my own .30s on the 1.00 and .925 J4 jackets. Thats what 'Nyhus 117' means on the targets. Randy is the guy that taught me to make bullets. His bullets remain the Gold Standard. As well, his turning advice is invaluable for those willing to learn. -Al


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Hmm….

I saw Nyhus 117 up there on your targets… and should have connected the dots.

So far I haven’t gone the bullet making path, but …

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Originally Posted by Spotshooter
I kind of figured he was using Robinett’s.

But wanted to check

Didn’t say Al, you asked who made a decent 30 cal. Well Randy makes a really decent bullet.



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Originally Posted by Spotshooter
Hmm….

I saw Nyhus 117 up there on your targets… and should have connected the dots.

So far I haven’t gone the bullet making path, but …

Randy and I are best friends.. if you're doing a 30BR, you should click on this link. There might be a couple familiar names there, too. smile -Al

https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/30br/


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Originally Posted by Swifty52
Didn’t say Al, you asked who made a decent 30 cal. Well Randy makes a really decent bullet.

Plus, Randy's are for sale. wink


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Last edited by 5sdad; 01/25/23. Reason: Somehow got into the wrong thread.

Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.

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Originally Posted by Al_Nyhus
Randy and I are best friends.. if you're doing a 30BR, you should click on this link. There might be a couple familiar names there, too. smile

I had the pleasure of talking to Randy a few years ago about some 30BR questions I had. Let me put it this way, I learned more in an hour talking to him than a year of research on the internet laugh. An unbelievable wealth of knowledge!

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Originally Posted by MKR100
Im working up loads and found a load that measures .89. The problem is all three holes are just touching or very close in a lateral or flat line. Whats the best way to tune this group? If I could just move either outsiide bullets inside my group would be very respectable.

Did you arrive at your group with powder charge only? I don't care for flat lines with powder charge. A flat line is an indicator of a load that is too hot! It might shoot tight sometimes but will be temperamental. Back it down just a touch until you see a triangle group and than seat the bullet deeper in 3 thou increments until it tightens up to all the bullets touching!

I'm assuming you've repeated the group a number of times?

Trystan


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LOL.. that thread is part of the reason I went with a 332 neck vs. 331.. (the shoulder / groove issue)

That and Randy’s thread about how he was modifying and what he recommended on accurate about the 30BR reamers..
That makes the 6th time I’ve read it…. And yeah some names there sound familiar !!

As a side note I had talked to Clay about learning how he made his bullets but life got in the way so I had to put that on the back burner.


BTW - I was also looking into making a more up to date bullet tester like Vern Juenke had made decades ago…
I’m an electrical engineer and have designed such stuff for control system design for assembly lines….
I had gotten as far as working with NDT (non-destructive-testing) sensor makers to see what would be best for the application, but again… life got in the way.

I may follow through with that if I get enough time…. The “bullet doctor” site has some of the prints for making one, but at the end of the day you either use Eddy Current testing, or you use Time Domain Reflection technology…. I was thinking about doing both in on system… The sensors placement is a really bugger depending on the flaw you are looking for - This is what I originally wanted to have a sit down with Clay Spensor on…

Best,
Mike




Originally Posted by Al_Nyhus
Originally Posted by Spotshooter
Hmm….

I saw Nyhus 117 up there on your targets… and should have connected the dots.

So far I haven’t gone the bullet making path, but …

Randy and I are best friends.. if you're doing a 30BR, you should click on this link. There might be a couple familiar names there, too. smile -Al

https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/30br/

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Here's another example of using wind flags to do load work on a light barrelled hunting gun.

The gun is what I call my 'Leftovers Project'. It's a '74 vintage 700 243W barrelled action that had taken up residence in the back of the gun safe for years. I came into a herky but useable LVSF stock and rehabbed it for the project.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Here's the initial load work with 760. It starts out pretty loose but as the powder charge goes up, you can see the characteristics change. If flags hadn't been used, it would have been easy to just shoot a few at the lower end and quickly come to the wrong conclusion that it didn't like 760. But by using flags, you know that the wind speed/direction component isn't what's driving the 'on target' performance. The powder charge is.

So it becomes relatively easy to just keep going up and let the gun tell you if it likes the powder or not. By 44.5, things were looking up and at 45.0 things really started to settle down. A few days later, I went back out and starting at 44.5, continued up to 46.5, where it started to get loose again. Since this gets used in temps from 20 degrees to 80+ (it was low 50's that day), I backed it down to 45.0 and reverified with four 5 shot groups that averaged .415. smile

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Something else to observe on this is one more Urban Legend that should be killed off. POI/groups do not always move up as the powder charge increases. Barrels shake around in response to the vibration signal of the powder (all are different) and the force inparted to the lands/grooves by the amount of contact surface of that particular bullet. Heavier barrels exhibit less of this due to the fact that the physical weight of the barrel (consider it a lever) is more resistant to movement by those forces.

At 44.5 and continuing on up, the groups did start to climb higher. That's because the muzzle of the barrel is in what's referred to as the 'dwell cycle' of it's eliptical motion caused by the forces we just talked about. At the top and bottom of the dwell cycle, there is a pronounced slowing of muzzle movement as it transitions to the next up or down cycle. The muzzle being in that 'dwell area' is what we're really seeing with a nice load that shoots steady over a range of powder weights. If you're not at the 'dwell', the muzzle is more rapidly moving either up or down.....loads get fussy and inconsistent.

Here's what it looks like...the 'dwell' is the 'node' area:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Wind flags are the single biggest tool for allowing us to not only see what's happening but also understand what we're seeing.

Good shootin' smile -Al


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This is an excellent wind tutorial. It also shows a flag style that would be easy for a DIY to make.

Good shootin' smile -Al



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Nice! I imagine velocity and BC help mitigate the effects that the narrator uncovered since they were using air rifles?

So does a bull barrel significantly tighten the dwell and make the node "larger"?


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I have had Smallbore shooters tell me that for every 5 clicks of windage they add or subtract a click of elevation.

While it is not as as apparent with high power bullets as the .22s in the video, you do start to see the effects at 1000 when you have several minutes of wind on the gun. By the time I'm at 7 or 8 minutes with my .308 I'm in danger of losing points out the top or bottom without a correction, of course by that point I am so pre occupied with the flags I'm not very proactive and get caught.

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Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
I imagine velocity and BC help mitigate the effects that the narrator uncovered since they were using air rifles?

'Morning. To start with, none of this was "uncovered". These effects are well known and have been observed for decades. What this did so well was to show how well the predicted result (exterior ballistics) matched up with the actual result (real shooting). And while the numbers will change based on the exterior ballistics (B.C. and velocity being the primary drivers), the pattern will always remain the same regardless of the cartridge used.

And while some of this has little to do with the shooter/hunter doing load work, it's pretty easy to see the wrong turns and dead ends shooters get sucked into taking...lacking some sort of even the most basic wind indicators.

Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
So does a bull barrel significantly tighten the dwell and make the node "larger"?

Barrel mass (weight) and stiffness shorten the amplitude (high/low peaks). This has the effect of extending the dwell time. Interestingly, barrel contour as relates to stiffness is not always what it appears to be.

Good shootin' -Al


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