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I would like to figure out a cast bullet load for squirrel hunting. I have 222, 223, and 222mag rifles to choose from. Want to load cast and lower velocity and will keep distance to 150yd or less.

Anyone have any recommendations on bullet molds and loads for this situation? I'm thinking I want to stay below 2500fps. I'm not against building a new rifle for this as well. Would like to keep it in a small case with low powder consumption. I keep looking at the 22TCM cartridge but I have never heard anything good on accuracy.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank You

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I have a friend I shoot ground squirrels with, although he is using a custom Martini single shot in .219 Zipper (32 gr h2o capacity cases) it should be pretty close to your .222. He uses an Accurate Molds LLC, spec'd for his throat, .002" over groove dia, true bore riding nose section, small flatnose, plain square base, 60 ish gr wheelweight at around 1450 I think. That combo is benchrest accurate. I would think that would work well in your .222.
Maybe Gnoahhh will contribute here.


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That sounds like exactly the bullet I would recommend. I would take it a step further and have a multiple cavity mold cut, with identical cavities but one of which being gas check capable. Higher velocity than 1400fps might be desirable to stretch things out past 100 yards and the GC may prove desirable. Also twist rate of the rifle(s) needs to be considered - make sure it'll stabilize a relatively long bullet, especially if relatively low velocities are adhered to. I would think 1-14" would be minimal, with 1-12" more optimal.

If I didn't plan to use it beyond "normal" .22RF ranges I would lean toward a lighter bullet, say 45-50-ish grains fitted as per flintlocke's advice. It's the 150 yard capability that drives my thoughts toward the 60 (or heavier) bullet.

Lots of powders should satisfy your needs. I would start with the good old standards like Unique and 2400, and go from there.

The very first thing I would do is conduct a chamber casting to determine exactly what chamber neck, throat, leade, etc. I'm dealing with and use that info in making an intelligent choice in mold design, factoring in also what Tom at Accurate will ask you regarding your chosen alloy (so think about that too). Having a custom mold cut by Accurate (and others) isn't that much more expensive than buying a mold off the shelf from the Big Boys that may or may not fit your gun, and it gives you a waaay better chance of success right out of the gate.


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I’ve had good results using the Lyman 225415 and Lee C225-55-RF molds. I found the 22 Hornet and 222 Remington to be a great cast bullet calibers, the 223 a little less so.

The other molds I have tried with limited success are Lyman 224450 and Lyman 225438. I’m sure with more load development work I could get these to shoot better.

You should be able to locate a Lyman 225415 mold without too much difficulty.

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Thank you all for contributing.
I'm thinking wheel weight lead, its what we use already and have a bunch of it. I want to stay in the 50-60gr weight range so I can stretch out to that 150yd distance and stay in squirrel head accuracy.
I have had multiple Martini's, Stevens Favorites and 44 1/2's etc. They wouldn't be a bad option, especially a Martini..
I could also go with a Hornet or something like that as suggested to save work and stay with a small case.
I would rather figure out what works best then build the rifle but my 222's are both 1/14" twist I believe. 788 and 722.
I'm wondering about a hollow point in the 50 gr range to allow for a longer bullet?

Is there a system to the Lyman mold model numbers?

Thanks again

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Was on the Accurate molds site and looks like he doesn't do anything under .28"

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I wonder how this one would work in 222? I also can powder coat. See if they can do hollow point or drill them out for hollow point. Maybe that would cut it back to 55-58gr.

http://arsenalmolds.com/bullet-molds?product_id=109&limit=99999999999

Anybody use them before? seems like reviews are good.

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Originally Posted by GRG
Was on the Accurate molds site and looks like he doesn't do anything under .28"
Oops, my screwup, I called my friend, he had his mold cut by LBT Molds (Veral Smith) but it looks like the Arsenal PC bullet mold is half the price, if you don't mind powder coating. PCing has the reputation of covering a lot of sins of omission in dimensions, but I have no firsthand knowledge of that process.


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Originally Posted by GRG
Was on the Accurate molds site and looks like he doesn't do anything under .28"

Ratz, you're right. I forgot about that. My apologies.


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Originally Posted by GRG
Thank you all for contributing.
I'm thinking wheel weight lead, its what we use already and have a bunch of it. I want to stay in the 50-60gr weight range so I can stretch out to that 150yd distance and stay in squirrel head accuracy.
I have had multiple Martini's, Stevens Favorites and 44 1/2's etc. They wouldn't be a bad option, especially a Martini..
I could also go with a Hornet or something like that as suggested to save work and stay with a small case.
I would rather figure out what works best then build the rifle but my 222's are both 1/14" twist I believe. 788 and 722.
I'm wondering about a hollow point in the 50 gr range to allow for a longer bullet?

Is there a system to the Lyman mold model numbers?

Thanks again

If you figure out Lyman's numbering system, you let me know!

You'll do what's best for yourself, I'm sure. I think you're on the right track too. I don't see any major issues with any of the ideas you and the rest of us jaybirds have put forth.

There's a kind of odd little bullet that's one of my favorite .22's. It's made (or was made, not sure if it still is) by Lee, and is called the Bator. It's the only Lee mold I have and I love it. Mine drops a 53 grain bullet (of WW+tin alloy) and with GC installed tips the scale at 54+ grains. It's a very stubby RN bullet with a length about equal to the Lyman 225438 45 grain, and performs very nicely in everything I've tried it in - but sensationally in a couple .22 Hornets - M54 Winchester, Stevens 44 .22WCF (shot as-cast) and a German kiplauf 5.6x35R (also shot as-cast) from barely sonic to the 2000fps neighborhood. The molds used to be sold as a Mid South Special, don't know if it still exists, but if not it's well worth searching for on the used market.

If you plan on head shooting squirrels at 150 yards with slow-ish .22 cast bullets I would invest as much time in memorizing scope elevation changes and wind doping as well as load development! If such a shot were presented to me I would probably be happy to slop one into his chest cavity rather than the brain pan! A long heavy bullet will definitely help, but is certainly not a panacea.

Starting from scratch for a dedicated .22 cast bullet shooter I would think hard about a Hornet built on a Martini Cadet action. That's a marriage made in heaven, IMO. My current project took a different direction though: I'm building a .22 Hornet on a very late 1903 Springfield action, match grade barrel countered to NRA Sporter dimensions, repro M1903 NRA Sporter stock, Fecker scope - all done up to mimic the "econo sporter" service that Griffin&Howe offered to owners of NRA Sporters during the Depression. Yeah, I'm a Hornet slut. I can't think of a time during the last 45 years when I didn't have a Hornet of some sort kicking around.


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gnoahhh,

I will definitely look at the mold you talked about as that sounds like it would work. I definitely don't have anything against Lyman or Lee dies as I haven't cast much beside 45 and 9mm and those are all out of Lyman dies I believe.

I may have to look for a small frame Martini to do this on. Hornet would definitely work, I believe I have a bunch of K Hornet brass and dies.

Your project sounds fun, would love to see it. I just finished helping my uncle finish a 15 yr old project he had. An early Springfield 03 on a military stock with a barrel in 22-250. I head spaced it, finished the exterior and rust blued it for him. He built a barrel band etc to match his Springfield 22 trainers. I will look for a picture and throw on here.

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Gentlemen,

Also being in the market for a cast bullet for my Hornet and my .223's, I just looked up the "Bator" mold from Lee. Apparently it is still popular because Midsouth Shooters Supply still carries both the two cavity and six cavity molds made by Lee for them, and they show to be in stock at this time.

Here's the link to the six cavity mold - LINK

Ed


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thanks for the heads up. I just dropped that mold in my cart.
I think to start with will come up with a load for my 722. My 788 is crazy accurate and I wont shoot lead in it. 722 isnt far behind but I will give it a run until I build something different.

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If you get the Bator mold, and you cast some bullets in the 10-12bhn range and size them to fit your throat, load 6 grains 2400 under them in the Hornet. Guaranteed to put a smile on your face. 1600fps, give or take depending on your barrel. A little more snot to it than a .22WMR, but not a lot. It's my go-to cast load for hunting with the Hornet, put many a squirrel in the pot with it - but frankly never exercised it on edibles past 75 yards or maybe a bit more. For 150 yard work you're on your own! 6 grains Li'l Gun will give you close to the same results, but in my guns the 2400 load shoots a skinch better. (Funny, because with full throttle jacketed loads L'il Gun beats 2400 on all counts, in my guns.)

Yeah, I'd like to see pics of y'all's Springfield .22-250. I'm a Springfield slut too. Hell, I'm a gun slut period!


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Let me clarify on the 150 yd squirrel head accuracy point. I want a cast bullet gun that can shoot that and on the bench I can do it as well. In the field I wouldn't hesitate to take a body shot as I'm not as steady as I use to be. Complete confidence in the rifle is the goal. I'm sure I will be pushing the speed up to 2000 and maybe a tad faster.

I looked for picks of the 03 22-250 but couldn't find any. I had my son redo my computer and now I struggle with being able to access my pictures on it. Computer works great but its configured different and that's a problem for me. Lol

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Confidence is as important as anything else!

Yeah, I re-set my laptop recently and the bugger snuck in a bunch of changes/upgrades that frustrated me too. Sometimes I wonder if technology is a blessing or a curse.


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Went to a gun show tonight and one of the reloading guys had a new Lee Mold with handles for $27. Its the mold discussed here in a double cavity block. Sure looks small in the shiny new block. HAHA. Will see if I can cast some tomorrow.

Thanks for the help, I will let you know how they work. Got a guy giving me some gas checks tomorrow also.

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GRG, why won't you shoot cast, especially powder coated cast in your 788? They are all very accurate guns & will give great accuracy with cast with very little experimenting. I bought my first one in the late 60's when they first came out for $63 & the second one for $67, both in Sherman, Texas at a store I was working in at the time. Both would out shoot my HB 700 in 22-250!
You will be very happy with the results if you try cast in the 222, trust me! Shooting cast, that gun will outlast your grandkids.

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Dick,

My 788 shoots outstanding with the loads I run through it and really don't feel the need to run cast through it. Once I work up a PC load maybe I will see how it shoots them. My 722 shoots very good but I am more willing to use it as a platform to work up the cast loads. I also have a 722 in 222mag, another gun that I have that shoots incredible groups for a hunting rifle and I feel no need to play with any other loads.

I'm really starting to doubt whether I will be able to reach my goal of accuracy with the reduced load cast bullet. I don't seem to here many people say that cast shoots great, just good. I have rimfires that shoot great, 17hm2 also great out to 100+. 150yds is the magic number here, If it cant realize 1 1/2" maybe a little more off the bench then I wont see much of a need for the loading.

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Look at the match results posted by competitors in the Cast Bullet Association before condemning cast bullet accuracy. But, as with most such things in life, there's a caveat: good usable field accuracy is attainable with just a passing nod to the protocols involved, but if you want stunningly great accuracy you better pay strict attention to the protocols. It's a thinking man's game if you want to take it to the next level and beyond. (And therein lies the attraction for many people.)

Don't be afraid. Accept it as a challenge, and give it a whirl.


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I'll tell you something funny. I've been trying to think of who I know personally to pick their brain on this topic and when I looked at the Cast Bullet Ass. website right away I saw the pictures of the guys at Wind Hill, Dan and Bill are my Uncles very good friends. I see Dan quite often as my uncle sees him all the time and they go to Tulsa together and have for many years.

Dont get me wrong, I will spend plenty of time working on this. Just need the weather to warm up. I do appreciate your help.

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Talked with Dan Hudson today for about an hour and he assured my it shouldn't be a problem getting the bench accuracy I want to achieve. He said John is really having good luck with the 224 cast bullets so when my registration gets approved at Cast Bullet Assoc I will try to get ahold of him.

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I've ran the .225 LBT FN GC 48 grainer spec'd with wheelweight metal for close to 20 years; 22 Hornets, K Hornets, its my primary 22 Jet revolver bullet and 222's at or around 2,900 fps with heat treated metal. The bullet basically resembles the Bator bullet above, except it is full diameter to the ogive and not bore riding on the nose. My experience with bore riding is that it is finicky from gun to gun or if imbalanced in the mold, won't shoot worth a hoot if pressed with speed, twist or pressure. I don't like long "hanging" noses as they lack support and add another variable to keeping balance in multiple arms.

I can honestly say I've never had 5 shot groups go over an inch, if even close. I primarily use it in a .223 groove, 1-16 22 Hornet with 12.5grs. Lil'Gun where it runs 7/8th inch for five shot groups. Its best was 3 touching and 2 out a smidge, with the 48 LBT. I do have a bore ride 63grainer I've ran to 2,900 with one 222 Mag that shot awesome.
I've ran Lino in the little LBT too for inside 100 yd. explosive effect; not as small of groups, but not above an inch and the small flat makes it fragment in large chunks. All of my cast loads "kiss" lands and if a little throat contact is made, the better.

The most important advice that so far has been omitted is nose first sizing, lube and check installation. Any decent bullet can be turned into garbage when sizing, lubing or installing a gas check, despite the utmost care or what one thinks is super hard alloy.

Always size nose first for rifle accuracy, any accuracy, especially if a gas check is used. Base first, gas check first is a good way to turn a great bullet into an unbalanced hunk of metal. The check should be the last piece going into any sizing die. If using an in and out sizer/lubricator, lube with an oversized die (I use a .227 in in and out sizers for 22's). This may leave the check loose but the sizing or potential to mis-align is limited and can be corrected in a .225 die during the nose first final sizing.
If you have access to a Star sizer or other nose first sizer, this isn't as much an issue and eliminates the two step process.

Not all lubes work well the length or a rifle barrel and fewer work well at high ambient temps, barrel temps and high pressure.
I use LBT Blue and it will flat not lead at these speeds/pressures. My homemade stuff made of beeswax with enough Lucas synthetic stabilizer to soften works as well too. I'm sure there are others, but keep the lube in mind if you get frosty lead near the muzzle.

A cupped punch that goes around the edge of a check as its swaged on during the nose first sizing process will eliminate uneven seating of the check and make a uniform, accurate finished bullet. Star can furnish you with one or an in and out sizer can use a steel spitzer style punch. Flat punches can index off of a raised sprue, causing the check to mis align. Yes, the base matters and if it doesn't align from tail to nose its the primary reason people don't have success with home brewed cast bullets. The beauty of it is that its self inflicted and hence can be self corrected if understood.

I generally try to make the bullets run at or near jacketed speeds and powder charges; if you are successful in doing so anything less serious or lighter is already done and the variable of the bullet is generally a formality.

From what I have read in the Fouling Shot, Dan will be a tremendous help and probably will have more to add with possibly a shortcut or two.

All of this may sound complicated, but once you find your setup, rinse and repeat and it can be easy.

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Hawk I,

Thank you for all the info but some of it is over my head right now. I have never used gas checks so Im having a hard time figuring out how you size nose first and crimp your GC on. I do have a Star sizer of my uncles Im using but I dont see on the Magma website that sells and supports them where additional sizers are available. looking for the proper sizer to use.

I will have to read through this a couple times and talk with Dan some more maybe.

Thanks again.

Glenn

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Glenn,

The Magma site is extensive; I would toggle each header because stuff is located everywhere.
Star Sizer

They are old school in that they will require you to call them and you get to talk to an actual well spoken young lady to place orders or inquiries. I would have Dan help you on the throat diameter and get what size he recommends with your chosen bullet mold and alloy and a cupped punch for gas checks.

She will know what you are asking for when you say "I need a .22X Star sizer die and a cupped .22 gas check punch for it". Their turnaround right now or at least this fall was about a week and the dies are 70 bucks, the punches I think are 25.
Check out the site for how to video instructions, which I'm sure you have.

The easy button for a production mold and production guns is .225 diameter and linotype or heat treated metal. IIRC, Dan is a lino/hardball alloy guy. Lino casts larger and might fit the throat better and with your mold might allow a larger size die, but its expensive and getting harder to find.


The instructions for the punch and die settings are here for lube hole spacing:
Punch and Die Settings

She will ask for that too.

The Star sizer operates by having the bullet fed nose first. The gas check is applied to the base and the punch pushes the bullet through the die and the gas check is swaged through the die last, being indexed off of the bullet, rather than the opposite in an in and out sizer. The lube is pressurized with a handle and lubes the bullet when the punch is fully lowered (look at the hole spacing diagram). Another checked bullet is fed and as it is fed the finished bullet ejects from the bottom.

Nate

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