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With the GC positioned in such a manner it would separate from the projectile after exiting the muzzle. This is the same as a sabot, or shotgun wad. It'd be ok to try in a solid barrel with integral chamber. Due to concern for wheel gun mixup I wouldn't try this arrangement

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There is also an unintended consequence of a copper GC flying in some unintentional direction..probably not recommended

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Indoor range director might frown on the blown shooting lane lights

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Originally Posted by Gaschekt
With the GC positioned in such a manner it would separate from the projectile after exiting the muzzle. This is the same as a sabot, or shotgun wad. It'd be ok to try in a solid barrel with integral chamber. Due to concern for wheel gun mixup I wouldn't try this arrangement

I see what you're talking about. I was thinking about the internal ballistics part of the event.

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Originally Posted by Gaschekt
Indoor range director might frown on the blown shooting lane lights

I notched the edge of an Oehler 33 skyscreen.

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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by Gaschekt
Indoor range director might frown on the blown shooting lane lights

I notched the edge of an Oehler 33 skyscreen.
Ive done more than that to a perfectly good shooting chrony. It didn't work too well after the direct hit through the screen with a 280 Remington.

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I've never made a direct hit, I was thinking of the wayward gas check in my experiment long ago.

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Yes, did that with the 74 Sharps, 45-110. Worked, but didn`t see the need for the extra fooling around, as some would not seat flat on top of the powder. Try it.
Eventually had a 405grn. PP mold made, PPing solved some problems, created some others.

I think the best load I`d developed was a duplex, smokeless and Black, shooting a 405 grn PP "express" load. Safe in my rifle, and used it only for hunting.

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I tried that in a .30-30 a long time ago. It worked as far as it goes, but the real issue, for me anyway, was getting the fool thing into the case neck.

Here's another dodge to get around GC usage: paper patching. Any of you BPCR guys employ that? I never did, but I did try the old fad of wrapping a .30 bullet with teflon plumber's tape. It worked pretty good - no leading, decently good accuracy and high-ish velocity with a soft bullet, but in the end was enough of a pain in the butt that I dropped it.

Last edited by gnoahhh; 02/02/23.

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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
I tried that in a .30-30 a long time ago. It worked as far as it goes, but the real issue, for me anyway, was getting the fool thing into the case neck.

Here's another dodge to get around GC usage: paper patching. Any of you BPCR guys employ that? I never did, but I try the old fad of wrapping a .30 bullet with teflon plumber's tape. It worked pretty good - no leading, decently good accuracy and high-ish velocity with a soft bullet, but in the end was enough of a pain in the butt that I dropped it.


Uhm... YES! Except my powder was RL-7

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Last edited by Muffin; 02/02/23.

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Originally Posted by HawkI
Read again; gas isn't doing anything, its pressure and friction that causes leading.....

Simply, but absolutely, untrue.


Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.

Here be dragons ...
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So Veral Smith is wrong and cores melt in jacketed bullets from hot gasses?

Educate us.

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This is something that each individual needs to shoot and see for themselves. Everyone needs to avail themselves to the vast recorded history of those who's done this before and then proceed with caution. Everyone has a barrel that will be a law unto itself as to how well it handles cast lead bullets. They need to be. 001 to .002" over for a sure snug fit that will never allow the hot gases to sneak by. Barrels need to be completely free of any other type of fouling. Don't ever try shooting lead bullets in a barrel with copper fouling. Slightly undersized lead bullets leads to large amounts of lead fouling. We can debate the particulars on how or why this happens, but we know that it happens and how to avoid it. In my experience gas checks are often worth the time and trouble because they pay off in spades with accuracy and speed performance.

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We have good banter here on this forum; if I don't agree or have a difference I will always try to explain why. I have a great deal of respect for everyone on this quieter forum. If I'm full of horse manure I can live with being wrong.

I agree, barrels can be a law unto themselves. I shoot jacketed stuff with cast all of the time from several rifles. I don't clean them much unless its humid because they really don't foul much.

If a barrel copper fouls or in fouls certain places, its going to foul with cast in those same areas, usually worse, even when clean. Copper fouling is there because of friction, pressure and finish, but lead fouls because of gases? Copper layering produces a rougher on an already rough finish, so yes I agree, its going to mess with a cast bullet which needs to have a seal for support and needs a smoother, more even finish.This is the contact area that makes the gas check help.

A loose core or one that is distorted beyond its strength within a jacket will become molten without contact from hot gases in the same way it does in a barrel. The snug fit is for support and balance and to minimize heat from moving under stress at its weakest contact area, just like it is in a core.

It is also always not true that they need to be .001 to .002 over or not slightly undersized to not lead or work. This is why many like softer alloys because the base can bump up and create that seal and base support. Elmer Keith touted "exact groove diameter" for sizing cast bullets, but he got around leading (we think) by using soft enough alloys and pressure within the limits of the alloy and lube. The old outside lubricated Colt rounds with straight chambers needed hollow based bullets and soft alloys or they were flat dismal, but they worked despite being undersized on purpose.

But agreed, starting off with a snug fit makes life much easier. But even when you have even an oversized bullet you will still see a recovered PB bullet with distortions at the very edge of the bullet base where stress is the greatest and on the leeward edges where rifling is engaged, despite having plugged everything up.

If lube runs out you will also see leading even with a gas checked bullet, often at a rifle muzzle, despite having sealed off all of the gases and the lube. The lube's ability to do its job doesn't expire from hot gases, its expired by friction.

Another explanation is high temp grease, wax paper fillers,dacron filler,card wads, fiber wads,plastic shot buffer filler for a bullet base.

Every one of these items will burn up on top of your lead pot way before your pot is close to being molten, yet every one generally exists when fired pretty much in the state they started in the case, despite being exposed to gases that that are hot enough to supposedly melt lead.

We use these items to move the stress area at that base edge, to cut down on the pressure and friction lead is exposed to on that base edge, just like a gas check. I still question the notion we use them to keep the base from melting due to gases.

Sorry fellas, I don't care about the SB today!

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Originally Posted by HawkI
We have good banter here on this forum; if I don't agree or have a difference I will always try to explain why. I have a great deal of respect for everyone on this quieter forum. If I'm full of horse manure I can live with being wrong.

I couldn't agree more!


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You've made me re-think a bit my feelings about gas cutting. I will agree in the main about friction etc. being the culprit, but must also think that gas cutting does have a somewhat deleterious effect on the stabilization of the bullet as it makes its way down the barrel.

At the end of the day, what all this analyzing, theorizing, and posturing points to is the base of the bullet is key to its successful flight. If the base isn't flat and square, and sufficiently large (either through bumping out or proper sizing) to seal the bore, it simply won't fly true - it is indeed the steering end of the bullet. Of course other things factor in too, but this speaks to the heart of the matter. At high(er) velocities the gas check serves in several capacities, but maintaining the integrity of the bullet's bases is chief among them.

As I mentioned before, Charlie Dell's experiments conducted by observing captured plain base bullets shows conclusively (to me anyway) that it isn't hot gases that wreck a soft PB bullet's base, rather not-yet-burned powder granules having a sandblasting effect. My own experimenting with PB soft cast bullets in my couple of .32-40 High Wall target guns (one of which is Pope #53), breech seating with over-groove diameter bullets so there's no question about starting with a perfectly sealed bore, show a marked increase in accuracy when I interpose a thick felt wad behind it (best) or a wax wad (even better). I think (but I could be wrong) that the wads simply protect the bullet bases from the sandblasting. (Bullets are lubed sufficiently as I enjoy a heavy lube star on the muzzles even without the wax wads, and the lube I use is a simple 75/25 mix of beeswax and Alox, not terribly high tech.) Besides, I need a wad in the case mouth to keep myself from spilling powder as I insert the thing into the chamber behind the pre-seated bullet!

Of course, the above is really only germane in discussing low velocity soft PB cast bullets at modest velocities. I have little personal knowledge of high velocity (over 2000fps) protocols. I have no desire for such - I simply have no need at this time although I might change my tune if my insanely big stash of jacketed bullets for .22CF's dries up - my academic cast bullet interests lie firmly in the 800-1800fps range, rifle and pistol.


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Just a dumb old guy with sixty years of casting, loading and shooting. My experiences: under 750-800 fps, good lube, sized to throat dia, plain base fine with wheel weight metal.
1000 and up, I use gas check bullets and get no leading. Again, wheel weight metal
Rifle, mainly 308/30-06. Linotype, gas check, sized to bore dia, beeswax/alox, 2000 fps, no lead.
Leading galore with "hard cast" bullets and the damn crayon lubes.
Argue, debate, fuss all you want. I know what works for me. Ain't puttin painted bullets down my lapped barrels.

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I have 2 1894 Marlins with micro groove barrels a 357 & a 44mag both like wheel wt metal and Hornady gas checks. That makes for inexpensive shooting.
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Shooting lead it fun, and educational. I’ve driven pure lead plain base to 1600 fps with MOA precision. Card wads help, so to does paper patch. Fastest I’ve shot without patch was 1400 fps, so my chronograph says. No leading. 9 BHN gas checked from a .30-30 ~2100 fps. No leading.

Bullet fit is more important than the other trivia.


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Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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