Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Getting started reloading

To some of the veterans of reloading rifles. Could anyone give some affordable starter advice and equipment to use...May do a cpl hundred a year so nothing fancy or expensive but good durable and accurate equipment for myself and my sons to get started.
Thanks

BYW, I didn't see a general reloading forum for this so please let me know if I need to delete or have moved. Thank you.

If you want to keep costs down you might start with a kit. Several manufacturers including RCBS and Lee sell kits that include a single stage press and a number of basic accessories. You'll still need to buy dies for the specific cartridges you want to reload plus a few other things, but this can be a more economical way to get into reloading. And of course you will need brass, primers, powder and bullets for the cartridges you're loading.

If you want to keep costs to a minimum Lee reloading products are very economical.

Brownells has a pretty deal on the RCBS Rockchucker kit right now. I think all in its around $250. Good place to start.

Well, you'll need a press to get started. boatboy has/had an RCBS Rockchucker for sale at $150 in the classifieds here. Can't go wrong with a Rockchucker or any single stage press from RCBS, Hornady, Redding, Lyman, or Forster. I'm not a huge Lee press fan, but the Classic Cast is a good unit.

You'll need dies for whatever cartridge you're loading. RCBS, Redding, Hornady, Forster are all good dies. I have a preference for Redding and Forster, but RCBS has never done me wrong. Hornady has done me wrong on dies before, but I'm sure it's a very rare occurrence.

Powder measure - this is technically optional, but I can't imagine loading without one. There are lots of good measures out there. The latest tech combines the powder dispenser with a digital scale, but the price isn't justified for what you're describing. I'd recommend a Lyman #55, RCBS Uniflow, or Redding. Avoid the Lee "Perfect" Measure unless you like getting frustrated. I've got an RCBS Uniflow in good working condition that I'd send you for a reasonable price.

Scale - definitely need a scale. Primarily for weighing powder. There are lots of digital scale options and I don't trust electronics, so I only use an electronic scale to weight sort projectiles that I've cast. I like a good dampened beam scale. RCBS/Ohaus 505 or 1010 are great scales. I've got a Lyman dampened beam scale on the bench that I would be willing to part with to get you and your son started. I've checked it against my Ohaus 1010 and it's rock solid for consistency

RELOADING MANUAL! You need a good printed reloading manual. Good ones, such as Lyman, Hornady, Nosler, Speer, Sierra will have the entire front half of the book devoted to step by step loading procedures and trouble shooting and what to watch for with brass and setting up dies. They are invaluable. Don't just try to glean information from the internet. Go with published resources until you know exactly what you're doing.

Those are the basics for equipment. You can get into lots more stuff - case trimmers, concentricity gauges, and all sort of gadgets and doo dads. But a press, dies, scale, powder measure, and manual will get you rolling for "permanent" items in your kit.

Other stuff you will need:
Case lube for resizing cases (unless you're strictly loading straightwall pistol cases with carbide dies). My first and last recommendation is Imperial Sizing Die wax, now sold by Redding if I'm not mistaken.

Brass - not all brass is created equal. I detest Winchester brass personally. You can't go wrong with Petersen, Lapua, Norma, Hornady, Nosler, or Starline. But you'll pay for it. Starline is the most affordable of the bunch. Remington and Federal aren't too bad in the brass department in my experience. But they're a tier below the first ones I listed in terms of quality and consistency. And they're less expensive.

Primers - this will be the tougher/more expensive thing to find at the moment. Good luck
Powder - After you have a manual and know what you intend to reload you can go by powder. Stick to the recipes in the loading manual. Don't try to substitute powder in the recipes. Things can get hairy really fast and you're setting off an explosion next to your face. Plan accordingly.
Bullets - Lots of bullet options out there, currently limited supply on most of them. Contrary to popular internet belief, you don't need super ultra premium bullets that cost $1.20 each to kill deer or varmints. Put the bullet in the right spot and stuff dies, even with the common cup and core jacketed bullets.

What cartridge(s) do you intend to load and for what purpose?

Here is boatboy's Rockchucker. Can't go wrong and boatboy is a well-known member of the forum, he's not going to screw you. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...89174/wts-rcbs-rock-chucker#Post18089174

The other things you'll need is some way of priming your cases. Many presses have an onboard priming attachment that is usually pretty slow, but works well. I use an older Lee Autoprime personally for most of my priming.

Wow. Tha ks for the info.
Was looking at brownells kits. Looks like some good discounts going on.
The above rockchucker has sold. When included in a kit they r reasonable. Looking at classifieds for dies etc...

Calibers right now:
243
3006
7mm08
300winmag.
Purchased quite a bit of the norma whitetail to reuse the brass as I've read it's pretty good stuff. Very good prices on it right now imo.
Thanks again.

Great post Selmer. I'd add a case trimmer to the "permanent" list you provided. Not to step on toes, but I'd keep everything RCBS and keep that schidt simple. No need to go full on retard with neck sizing dies and bushings and other unnecessary schidt like that. I'd also invest in a good concentricity gauge, as that will tell you if you are loading straight ammo. Or if you run into issues regarding accuracy, you can diagnose and rule out an ammo issue, in regards to how straight it is. Reloading ammo is a subject that needs to be taken seriously. If I were only going to load 200 rounds per year, I would not load ammo, but buy it at the store. The OP may want to really think this through. Also, does he have the patience to do everything right every time? No cutting corners, keeping everything consistent as it needs to be and properly working up loads. You don't just throw something together and call it done. That is where some guys really screw the pooch in their way of thinking. You'll need to take that ammo out and test it at the range. There is a lot to properly handloading ammo and it generally takes a person willing to commit to it. Also, doing a "cpl hundred per year", as the OP states, would never pay for the equipment. Nor be a feasible reason to start reloading your own.

Thanks for the info bsa1917. I won't half ass anything you can be sure...
If and when another ammo shortage comes I want to have my ducks in a row. I did entertain the thought of having someone load for me also but not much different then going to the ammo store in my mind.

This isn't about "paying" for the equipment but merely wanting to get best performance and not reliant on factory ammo and learning something new, process oreinted.

Hard parts are a cpl tanks of diesel in the pickup.

My thoughts on rcbs are in line with yours. KISS applies

This is also about spending time with my boys and learning and teaching them about how to be self reliant and sufficient...not just going to the store everytime they need something. A sense of pride knowing that the game is taken with ammo you created etc.
there is more to life than overbearing schools and time consuming sports and smart phones...if u need something buy it instead of create it is not the way I was raised nor how I am raising my 3 sons.
We are applying for elk tags Hopefully the draw is good to us.

Appreciate your time and concerns plus your insight.

Before the great scandemic you could pick rcbs rc presses used for $40 bucks, rcbs scales $35-40. If I was wanting to get into reloading pre 2020 was the time to do it. But enough of that as others said buy all one brand RCBS easiest way to go. Every gunshop I been in has a wall of used dies. You be surprised all the new rcbs dies you find at used prices. Last set of new dies I bought was 4-5 yrs ago.

Thanks for the info 79s. Reloading equipment looks to be trending downwards at the moment prise wise. But so is factory ammo...

I agree with everyone else...it's an interesting thing to learn but you'll definitely pay for it in time and in cash.

As BSA said I'd pick up the gauges early on: concentricity gauge and LNL OAL gauge or something like it. You don't "need" either one but it'll save time and money in the long run. You'll have a decent sense of how much you're jumping the bullet and if your practices are resulting in straight ammo (they usually won't at first). Also pick a way to measure shoulder setback, whether it's with empty pistol cases or a gauge set.

Ok. Thank you for the info. I know it will be a expense and time invested but believe we will have fun with it and learn and better ourselves...hopefully.lol
If not I've wasted money on other things not so fun before... thanks again

You are getting good advice here and are on the right track. You don't necessarily get into reloading to save money but to shoot more. Start slow, be careful and have fun.

Investigate the Forster/Bonanza Co-ax press (maybe a used one?)... Pricey, But IMO it's easier to make quality ammo with it's self centering floating universal shell holder design... Also one of those Electronic Powder measure/Dispensers would make a tedious job easier...

Thank you 7mmloco and blacktailer

One thing I didn't see mentioned that you need is a set of calipers. You'll need to measure to the .001 for things like seating and trimming. I started years ago with making a list of things I needed/wanted and put it in a spreadsheet with prices/part numbers. I also bought a load manual first and read it cover to cover (Lyman I believe). It gave me a good idea of what I was getting into. To break it down, here is what you need as a bare bones minimum:

- Press (and shell holders for the calibers you're loading)
- Dies
- Lube
- Neck brush cleaning set
- Scale (can be digital or electronic)
- Calipers (can be digital or electronic)
- Chamfer / Debur tool
- Powder Scoops -OR- powder thrower
- Case Trimmer (can be manual or powered)
- Powder Funnel
- Powder / Brass / Primers / Bullets
- Safety Glasses

Optional Items:
- Tumber (to clean brass)
- Enhanced measuring tools (to measure such things as concentricity, ogive, etc.)
- Primer pocket cleaning tool



Lastly, don't think that you'll ONLY load 200 rounds a year. I've never met a handloader that sticks with what he thinks he wants to do start out. Handloading doesn't save money, it allows enables you to shoot more. It's as much a hobby as shooting and hunting. The kits are a good way to go but make sure they have everything above.

I have a Rockchucker, sent a PM

If you're new, I'd recommend going to Youtube and watching Gunblue490's reloading videos. He does a series, is a great teacher and stresses economics.

Thanks everyone

Excellent advice offered here.

My thoughts:

Starting with a kit works well.... it did for me 33 years ago.

Other things which make reloading an enjoyable hobby:

-- reloading blocks..... to hold your cases as you go. buy some; make some

-- Notebooks..... keep records of ALL reloading. label your cartridge groups

--Cartridge boxes..... i use the green plastic type

--Work space.... Have a secure place for your equipment. specially with kids around.

i have 3 reloading manuals. 2 of em I bought at garage sales.

reloading is a fine hobby.

Reloading is my favorite thing. I got started as a young lad with my dad in the mid 80s and I latched on right away. One thing I know helped me was to get reloading manuals and read them for more than just the load data. About half of each manual has a lot of direction and illustrations that are a big help and really should be required reading. One cool thing my mom would do is for Christmas, is get us a reloading manual. She wasn’t into hand loading, so we helped her pick the book, and she would write something nice to us boys on the blank page. Kind of cool to see the history over time. Another thing is to not ignore used items. I have plenty of used items I purchased or was given over the years that include presses, dies, scales etc. Even plastic ammo cases help. I end up with two or more items that do the same thing, but it helps to have a few extra trimmers so that one can be made into a dedicated trimmer for your 30-06 and it’s always ready and never has to be adjusted. Just set it and leave it. Extra dies could provide you the piece of mind of having one ready in case you get one stuck in the sizing die. Extra calipers, powder measures, brass cleaners, shell holders, chamfer/de-burr tools and whatever else you can think of will keep you reloading if anything gets lost or broken because otherwise you have to stop and either order or hit the road and buy a new one and everyone knows how expensive and unavailable things are now.

Highly addictive hobby beware

I have looked at the different reloading manuals but have not purchased...which one should a guy get first or which is better for the "old school" calibers I have?
Thanks for all the info!

Painted desert. That is a wonderful memory. Reminds me of my childhood...mom and dad didn't have much to give but mom always made it special.

All the bullet makers have very good loading manuals but after many years of reloading, I would say Lyman's manual is a must.

Check your local library to see which ones are available. In OH, we can do a statewide search, & have stuff delivered to our local place in a week or less.

I was able to bring in all of the major reloading manuals (if not the most recent editions), & got a lot of good info out of all of 'em. I then decided which one I liked best, & bought my own copies.

FC

Probably the Lyman manual first (best basic info for a beginner IMO)... But the Nosler manual is my favorite for the way they lay out the load data on the page... For advanced handloading tech info for beginners, The Western Powders Handloading Guide is my favorite, Hands Down... I think? it's out of print, But "Mule Deer" aka John Barsness may? have some available on his website... For true "old school" cartridges and old school powders only, i'd pick up an old Lyman or Speer manual from the 70's or 80's... I started with an old Lyman #45 manual... The max loads in these old manuals are usually much hotter (higher velocity & pressure) than current data and i learned to read pressure signs and that i had to be careful when approaching max loads... The downside is these old manuals don't include modern powders... So their usefulness is limited...

Lyman. It's also a good idea to have a couple to cross-reference. Be careful of blindly accepting what people post online for their own loads.

If you need load data, you can also gather authoritative information online:

Hodgdon: https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/
Nosler: https://www.nosler.com/load-data/caliber-and-cartridge-data.html
Alliant: https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx?page=/reloaders/index.aspx&
Speer: https://www.speer.com/reloading/

Definitely get a few to cross reference like was mentioned before me. Sometimes you find that only one has the info you need. I like to get the Hodgdons manual that comes out every year. It’s great for data, but other than that, it’s like a magazine more than a book and not much there for training or learning like the manuals have. I’m slowly getting electronic about it now. There’s apps, downloads, and websites that are full of data. Hornady, Nosler, and Hodgdons have those things. When I’m gathering data for a load, I look through a few books, then I go to the electric sources. You will find different max loads in a few of them, so it forces you to use caution.

It doesn't hurt to have many paper manuals on hand, I do like the website Databases though. Having paper manuals over time gives you an archive to go back in history.

I found Hornady data to be so bad that I thew away all the books... and constantly recommend same.

Old Lee books are not to be ignored IMHO.

Lots of books on EBay

I've been on this web site since 2004. You've got some good info, from guys I have a lot of respect for, that have chimed in on this thread.

I'm pretty much self taught at the reload bench... I learned every way one can think of, on HOW NOT to do it... but then my granddad use to tell us boys when we were kids, that there is no greater teacher than pain... Some of the things I do have a reputation of being off the beaten path , so I'll let some of the guys on this thread, guide you on paying attention to some of the things I do, and loads I develop. I've learned to do a lot toward economy, that you may not find in some load manual, but it will stretch out your resources. As I have said on here often, one does not need a 500 yd load capable of killing an elk, to take down some blacktail or whitetail at 100 yds... That is considering that anywhere on the planet, 90% of all game is taken at under a 100 yds., and 99% is taken under 200 yds...

My background is learning to economize, just in case times like these roll around... which they do when we get a democRat in the White House..
I've also been a shooting instructor for Boy Scouts. And developed loads for the gun that grandpa gives his 12 yr old grandson, that beats the crap out of the poor kid, and gets dad all mad his son "isn't a real man!" because he cries after shooting grandpa's 30/06 or 300 Win Mag...

I've learned ways to get 50 to 100 plus reloads out of a piece of brass, if I have to... was a highly trained Military Medic, and can take care of all sorts of wounds... so its easy to reverse engineer that, by knowing what you need to make a load, that can be real effective on taking down game... an example being say using a 223, I can load a full power military equivalent load, with a 55 gr bullet having a muzzle velocity of 3150 fps. shoot it at a steel plate at 100 yds, and have it bounce off of it.... yet come up with a load for the same bullet, giving an MV of only 2500 fps, that will penetrate the same steel plate at 100 yds... every time. I think out of the box...

If you want reload manuals and don't want to be in a rush, peruse used book stores, here and there... over the years I've found all sorts of stuff.. a used manual for $3.00 that a gun store would sell new for $20 or more.. or used for $15 or more... I prefer manuals that are older.. before they got overly " lawyer approved".... I prefer powders that have been around forever, and still sell because they are proven... yet don't bother with the latest greatest on the shelf at your powder dealers, because over a few years, some of them just bite the dust, for being finicky....things like powders to fill your case cartridge up with... so you burn more powder, and get a lot less out of a pound of it...

and reload manuals or direction.. the internet is full of it... and stuff you don't have to pay or subscribe to.. yet their are plenty that try to con you into taking an annual subscription for $50 a year....

Here are two I refer to often, that don't cost me a penny, and they use data from a bunch of powder manufacturer or bullet manufacturers reload data... combining a lot of sources into one... both are compiled from data from ALL manufacturers into one source. It would cost someone $100s of dollars, to compile and organize, like these two sites give you for free...

https://shootersreference.com/reloadingdata/


https://stevespages.com/page8a.htm

Reloading dies? cheapest thing on your reload bench....a pound of powder these days can run $50 to $65 easily... a good set of reloading dies can run you the same price....one is quickly gone if you shoot much... the other ( the reload dies), you can pass those down to your grandchildren...

Brands? I have multiple sets of dies, for the same caliber... RCBS for example, has a lifetime warranty... you break something, they replace it... I'm due to receive some replacement parts this week, on a couple of sets of dies that I've own 20 to 30 years now...didn't even cost me postage...

Lee Dies, I think they are the best value, even they may charge you a little bit ( like postage) to replace a part... cheap investment as they are the same cost or less of a pound of powder or a box of store ammo off the shelf...

Hope some of this may give you some ideas on how to get started...and put some thought possibilities in you head...

Last couple of months, I've been over at our local range and shooting steel plates at 300 and 400 yds...Using lowly bolt action rifles in 223...
Keep you hand to eye coordination in practice... I've been using 50, 52, 53 and 55 grain bullets, I've picked up in bulk on the internet dealers.

Burning up powder? Not really... these are loads for economic times like we get from DemocRATS in the White House.... I'm using shotgun and pistol powder in a 223 case, with either small rifle or small pistol primers ( either works just fine in these loads)... using 8.5 to 9.5 grains of powder... divide that into 7000 grains of powder in a pound...that is getting 750 + rounds out of a pound of powder... added benefit, it teaches a shooter to use the features on their scope...only a reloader can give him that sort of economical training... I'll go over to the range, in between bad weather days, and shoot 20 to 30 rounds... getting 750 reloads plus out of a pound of powder.. you can see that is a lot of practice, for the cheap...

added benefit? its not a lot of wear and tear on the barrel or the rifle... plus you never lose sight picture thru your scope, because its not that much what you'd call recoil...

Learn from other people's experiences.. it will cut your learning curve down quite a bit...

Good luck out there....

I didn't know Stevespages was still up and running. I loved it when Steve would chime in on a subject. People like him made things interesting.

I listed the data pages (and how to hack) in the link below. Others should add other pages to help out the next fella,

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/17653935

I found the data to be 100% trustworthy on the loads I developed.

It seems like a disorganized mess, but when you chase it some... it kinda becomes like a database of every load ever developed by everyone.

Been using it for years Mick....it was down a short while and one of his younger relatives took it over... I think it was only down like 90 days or so..
Think I sent him a $25 money order and have not had any problems at all...

I have a book mark for it on my task bar... I consult it regularly, if nothing else, to just double check what's in my head...
ya start to hit my age.. suddenly the mind doesn't hold onto things as much as it use to...

Thabk you to everyone for all the info. I have picked up some dies and bullets off the classifieds...still perusing presses.
I like the forster for easy die change merely bc of loading different cartridge sizes with smaller sample size for the boys and my rifles. Seems like would be a significant time reducer...

One thing I just remembered is to be very careful with the scale. By that I mean once it’s zeroed, you can’t move or bump it, in case you didn’t know. I was reloading with one of my friends and he didn’t understand this and was kind of rough with the scale when checking charges and not using soft hands and would move it a few inches away without re zeroing it. Those need to be babied or respected like you would calipers or other nice instruments. I always have two, sometimes three scales on hand when loading. I still like the RCBS 1010 scale and use the scale in the auto charger and sometimes a electronic scale. I routinely check my loads at random between the scales when loading to make sure nothing went haywire.

You'll never regret that Forster press... Buy once, Cry once... Nowhere to go from there but down IMO... The snap in/snap out die changes are a real time saver, But buy the Forster lock rings as most off brand die lock rings are thinner and don't fit in the presses die slot properly... Due to it's self aligning floating plate shell holder design, That press makes straight and accurate ammo right off the bat without a lot of futzing around like some other presses require... The built in primer installer also works well and gives proper & consistent crush in my experience... And if you decide reloading isn't for you, You'll have no trouble recouping most if not all of your $$$... I started reloading for 357 mag on my older brothers Bonanza co-ax (same as Forster) when i was a teenager in the 70's... When he lost interest in reloading, I inherited the press on the agreement i reload his ammo for life, lol... Still use it regularly and no regrets...

What Selmer posted near the beginning of this thread should become a sticky and the first response to any thread regarding getting started reloading.

Hello Bode, the forster co-ax is an awesome press. If you get one I would highly recommend ordering the kit from midway that converts it to regular shell holders instead of the universal set up that it comes with. Two problems you can encounter with the universal shell holder system is if you ever get a stuck case in a die it won't pull it out and the regular shell holder set up will! The other problem is there universal set up will not allow you to bump the shoulder enouph with some diea that are not forster dies.

I know you will do your research however to save you some time I'd like to point out what I comsider to be two of the most important aspects to safely loading ammo. First is to only bump the shoulder just enouph to make it fit your chamber and no more. If you bump the shoulder way back you can introduce excess headspace and cause what is called case head separation and that's dangerous. If you research "Partial Full Length Sizing" it will explain it.

Case neck trimming is also important. Every firing the case neck gravitated forward in the throat of the chamber. If you allow it to gravitate it can eventually hit the end of the throat and this will clamp the brass tightly against the bullet not allowing it to release the bullet. When an explosion happens and the bullet doesn't release guess what happens?

So two things

Partial size to eliminate case head separation
Trim the necks so you don't create a bomb

All the other wonderful gentlemen already offered you top notch advice so I don't need to add anything else.

There are a lot of experienced reloaders here many of whom already offered advice. Good luck to you and come back and ask questions anytime when you get started into this endeavour

Trystan

I have been using a Bonanza/Forster co-ax press (as delivered with the universal shellholder) since the 70's... With mostly RCBS, Redding, and some Forster dies... I've never stuck a case, But i always lightly lube my cases, as instructed... I also usually bump my shoulders the minimum .001 to .002 as instructed for best case life... I've had no trouble achieving that, yet... I think? if you convert the Forster to use conventional shell holders you will lose the self aligning feature that helps make straight/accurate ammo... Might as well buy a cheaper press if that's the case... If after 40+ yrs, i ever stick a case in a die, I think i'l just buy a Rock Chucker press to pull it out... Just kidding lol...

It most certainly does not lose its self aligning feature. I'm not sure why you would think it would? The Banaza and Forster Co-Ax universal systems are not equals. I'm guessing the universal shell holders on the newer press are made in China


Trystan

I just looked at a new Forster press this week at Scheels ($369.99).. At a glance, It looked exactly like mine.. 100% USA made in Illinois.. Nothing on that press from China, I checked!.. Stop Guessing if you Don't Know!...

just taken from the Forster website... [Shell holder adapter plate for Co-ax press, SKU: AP 1000, $34.00... Our shell holder adapter plate allows you to use standard shell holders in place of the spring loaded, universal shell holder jaws that come with the co-ax press... Very easy to use and facilitates reloading of some non-standard cartridges... All you need to supply is your conventional style shell holder in conjunction with this adapter... Makes reloading non-standard cartridges easy... High alloy steel... NOTE: USE OF THE SHELL HOLDER ADAPTER PLATE DOES NOT ALLOW CARTRIDGES TO FLOAT AS WITH OUR "S" AND "LS" UNIVERSAL SHELL HOLDER JAWS]... At this point i don't have any confidence in what you post Mr Banaza... You obviously don't know what you're talking about... In fact, I'm Guessing you're full of Schit!....

You are 100% misunderstanding the fact of the matter! Every standard shell holder allows for "float" and in the forster set up the die floats as well! I load ammo in the 1 thou range consistently with the standard shell holder and as it states I can use it to load "all" cartridges, not just "some"

It's more than obvious at this point that you haven't tried it at all and your trying to speak from lack of experience. Your trying to quantify your ideas by something you read and that kind of BS has zero credibility on the fire. You've loaded zero ammo with the setup I've described and your the victim of marketing hype! You have zero credibility with me.

I've loaded 1 thou ammo on most presses and it doesn't matter the brand either! Most presses don't have the "marketing hyped" FLOATING SHELL HOLDER" Yet they still "float" by design! The only advantage to a forster co-ax or your BANANA HEAD press is they save time and thats it! After 40 fk'n years and you still have zero clue what marketing hype is and it's obvious you have very little real life experience. Keep reading rather than doing einstien

It "DOES" lose it's self aligning (floating) Feature... That's direct from Forster... That's why i think it would... The "Bonanza" and Forster universal systems "ARE" equals in Quality (and i think the parts interchange)... The universal Shell holders (or any part) on the newer press are "NOT" made in china, 100% USA made... Your BS statements might? give you Credibility on "The Fire", But you have Zero Credibility with me Banaza Head

Are you trying to say that in "YOUR" testing when you changed to a regular shell holder system it introduced runout?

Oh! That's right! Your talking out of your ars because YOU'VE NEVER DONE IT! How could you possibly know? You DONT!

When there saying you lose the forster designed floating system thats exactly what they mean. Every design floats to a degree dumbas. Is the forster floating system superior? No its not with the testing I've done but than I'm not a couch bound potatoe head and I actually do things

Is that why experienced handloaders often have to Fugg around with O-rings/spacers or some such on their dies to maintain concentricity with many of the other design presses... I started with a Co-ax press (never used anything else)... I've never had trouble making accurate ammo for hunting rifles... All shoot well under an inch (cept' for that damn mini-14), with some under a half inch... And no, i've never devoted much time to it, Never had too... Guess i'm spoiled by my Co-ax press...

Well, you might be a dumbas but so am I for sitting here arguing with you on a nice Sunday afternoon....

Have a good rest of your day friend