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Originally Posted by Jcubed
We all have examples...

In your life, do you have agency?

Do you consider Obedience to an outside authority
as free will?


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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Jcubed
We all have examples...

In your life, do you have agency?

Do you consider Obedience to an authority
as free will?


No.

Eta...not the way you are putting it.

Last edited by Jcubed; 02/07/23.
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Originally Posted by Jcubed
Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Jcubed
We all have examples...

In your life, do you have agency?

Do you consider Obedience to an authority
as free will?


No.

Eta...not the way you are putting it.


Do you have agency?

PS remember the last thread

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Originally Posted by Jcubed
Originally Posted by Starman
Do you consider Obedience to an authority
as free will?


No


Well then, both Pharaoh and Jesus were denied free will.


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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Jcubed
Originally Posted by Starman
Do you consider Obedience to an authority
as free will?


No


Will then both Pharaoh and Jesus were denied free will.


I dint see where this is going.

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Originally Posted by Jcubed
I dint see where this is going.

Take your blinkers off.


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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Jcubed
I would say scripture affirms free will...

The examples I cited don't support that.
"Go and sin no more" can only make sense in the context of free will.

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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Jcubed
I dint see where this is going.

Take your blinkers off.


I'm reading...

Explain.

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Free will is often used as an excuse, an ideological dodge.

We think and make decisions based on a number of factors and reasons.

How we think and why we think as we do is the point.

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Originally Posted by DBT
Free will is often used as an excuse, an ideological dodge.

We think and make decisions based on a number of factors and reasons.

How we think and why we think as we do is the point.


That's called free will...

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
"Go and sin no more" can only make sense in the context of free will.

Scriptural examples I cited are contra
to the free will claim..perhaps you can
address those.


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The End Times Picayune?


I am MAGA.
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Originally Posted by Jcubed
Originally Posted by DBT
Free will is often used as an excuse, an ideological dodge.

We think and make decisions based on a number of factors and reasons.

How we think and why we think as we do is the point.


That's called free will...

It is....the trouble is that free will has nothing to do with the process of decision making. Which is why the free will debate, like theism, has spanned centuries.

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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Jcubed
Originally Posted by DBT
Free will is often used as an excuse, an ideological dodge.

We think and make decisions based on a number of factors and reasons.

How we think and why we think as we do is the point.


That's called free will...

It is....the trouble is that free will has nothing to do with the process of decision making. Which is why the free will debate, like theism, has spanned centuries.


No.

Agency is debated amongst atheists all the time...

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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
"Go and sin no more" can only make sense in the context of free will.

Scriptural examples I cited are contra
to the free will claim..perhaps you can
address those.
What? This?

"Scripture shows absence of free will.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart against Moses
and Jesus followed his father's will, not his own."

God hardening Pharaoh's heart doesn't provide a proof against the general freedom of human will. Pharaoh first chose to operate against God, and only after this did God choose to harden his heart.

Jesus followed his father's will because it is his nature to do so, but he isn't an example of an ordinary man. He's a man, but also divine, and his human will is in perfect alignment with his divine will.

Jesus was never internally tempted to sin, since the devil's temptations had no effect on him, as they may have had on an ordinary man.


Even in the Garden of Gethsemane, where it appeared that there was a division between his will and that of the Father, he (even in his human nature) ultimately chose God's will as his own.

"Not my will, but thine be done."

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Lol.

Jesus wasn't tempted?

Go on...

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Originally Posted by Jcubed
Lol.

Jesus wasn't tempted?

Go on...
He was tempted, in that the devil tempted him. He was not tempted in that he was ever at risk of throwing in with the devil.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Jcubed
Lol.

Jesus wasn't tempted?

Go on...
He was tempted, in that the devil tempted him. He was not tempted in that he was ever at risk of falling in with the devil.


Why not?

Was he not man?

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Originally Posted by Jcubed
Why not?

Was he not man?
Both man and God, but the two natures were joined as one. So, while being tempted by the Devil, he experienced what being tempted felt like. Internally, however, he was not actually tempted to do evil in place of God's will.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Pharaoh first chose to operate against God,
and only after this did God choose to harden his heart.
.

So pharaohs heart was hardened through divine intervention...free will you say?

Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Jesus followed his father's will because it is his nature to do so,
but he isn't an example of an ordinary man.
.

Actually Jesus sounds very ordinary , his personal expressed desire
was to avoid crucifixion like most rational mere mortals would.

Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Even in the Garden of Gethsemane, where it appeared that there was a division between his will and that of the Father, he (even in his human nature) ultimate chose God's will as his own.

"Not my will, but thine be done."

Jesus became subordinate to the will of the Father.
If he really had free will, Big Daddy would have cut
him loose from crucifixion when Jesus asked that
cup be passed on from him.


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