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I recently acquired a 338-06 and started working on running some Nosler 30-06 brass through my Lee 338-06 sizing die. I adjusted the die down until it made contact with the shell holder and ran a piece of brass through. Loaded the empty brass into the chamber, and the bolt had to be forced closed. Hmm, need more shoulder setback. I ended up adjusting the die down until it cammed over pretty hard. Sized the same piece of brass and tried chambering again. Better, but I can still feel a bit of resistance when I close the bolt. Tried switching from my RCBS shell holder to the Lee. Same thing. Is there any reason not to shoot as it is? I am sure it won't stick in the chamber so hard I can't open the bolt, nowhere near that tight.

Will I run into pressure quicker if I shoot as sized now? Or would you just shoot it as is? I wonder if the chamber was cut on the tight side, and if so, makes me curious to whether it was on purpose. It is a BRNO Mauser with an aftermarket barrel, my gunsmith said if he had to guess he would guess a Douglas barrel.

My understanding is I could solve the problem by getting a machinist to grind .008-.010 off the surface of my shell holder, and I am not opposed to going that route. There is a good machinist just down the road from my place, I am sure he would do it for me.

Last edited by Jevyod; 02/23/23.

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What does the neck O.D. measure with a bullet seated? If you're sure the tightness isn't from inadequate neck clearance, you could fire a couple.

If you haven't necked the brass to .338, the tightness could also be from the .30 cal neck being forced into the .338 rifling.

That fired brass could then be used to properly set your die up.

Good shooting.' -Al


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I will need to measure the O.D. once I get home this evening. The brass was already necked up to 338


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I had the same issue once with one of my 7mags.I was using RCBS dies.I bought another set of RCBS dies,set them up the same and the brass chambered without any problems.Now as for the Nosler brass,I bought some 30-06 brass once.I could not chamber the brass in my 30-06 without resizing it first.Once I ran it through my dies,it was fine.I use Lee dies for my 338-06 too.When I make my brass for my 338-06,I use once-fired 30-06 brass,usually Winchester brass.I've never had an issue with my brass.You might be getting some spring back on your Nosler brass.If you can get some once-fired 30-06 brass of a different brand,try making some 338-06 brass and see if your still having the same issue.


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Originally Posted by baldhunter
I had the same issue once with one of my 7mags.I was using RCBS dies.I bought another set of RCBS dies,set them up the same and the brass chambered without any problems.Now as for the Nosler brass,I bought some 30-06 brass once.I could not chamber the brass in my 30-06 without resizing it first.Once I ran it through my dies,it was fine.I use Lee dies for my 338-06 too.When I make my brass for my 338-06,I use once-fired 30-06 brass,usually Winchester brass.I've never had an issue with my brass.You might be getting some spring back on your Nosler brass.If you can get some once-fired 30-06 brass of a different brand,try making some 338-06 brass and see if your still having the same issue.

I have some Hornady and Rem brass as well, I will try them to see if there is a difference.


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Originally Posted by Jevyod
I will need to measure the O.D. once I get home this evening. The brass was already necked up to 338

Also, make sure the case neck isn't bottoming out at the end of the chamber neck.

Just a few things to check before firing a few on an unknown chamber..... -Al


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Originally Posted by Al_Nyhus
Originally Posted by Jevyod
I will need to measure the O.D. once I get home this evening. The brass was already necked up to 338

Also, make sure the case neck isn't bottoming out at the end of the chamber neck.

Just a few things to check before firing a few on an unknown chamber..... -Al

Not sure I understand how to check this? I do know after necking up my brass the length was shorter than the "trim to" length in the manuals.


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Also, the fact that the fit was "less tight" as I screwed the sizing die in farther...does that not mean it is a tight headspace issue?


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You might want to start using virgin brass, I had the same thing happen with new barrel from McGowan, it would not chamber pre fired brass from another rifle had to start using virgin brass.

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Originally Posted by duke61
You might want to start using virgin brass, I had the same thing happen with new barrel from McGowan, it would not chamber pre fired brass from another rifle had to start using virgin brass.
This happens with my custom 8" twist 270 WSM. The smith used a really "minimum" reamer for it and though headspace is fine, my RCBS dies don't size the base of cases I fired in the original factory (win M70) 270 WSM barrel quite enough for resistance-free cambering. Said brass also gives a false "stiff bolt lift", which would feel like an overpressure load if you hadn't felt it on closing.
I use virgin Hornady brass and it works great for LOTS of reloadings. Very impressed with that brass. Wish I could find another couple boxes of them. On the wait list at a bunch of vendors.

Good luck with your 338-06. Great chambering.
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Does the Nosler '06 brass (you don't mention whether it's new or 1x) chamber before you mangle it in the Lee die?

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No it does not


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And it is fired brass


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Originally Posted by Jevyod
And it is fired brass


Try some new brass.


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Dies just like chambers have a spec. You have a min spec chamber and a max spec die. Had the same problem. Try different set of die’s. Hasbeen


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I've used the Redding Competition Shellholder Set #1 (308 Winchester, 30-06 Springfield, 45 ACP) when I want to control sized case headspace to solve an issue the OP is having.

This is after I've confirmed that the case neck mouth is not impinging on the chamber case neck shoulder.

For what it's worth I bump shoulder to allow 0.002" headspace.


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Do you have a 45ACP sizing die? If you do try running your rifle cases through it after taking the decapping pin out etc. The head/web expansion of the case may be the problem.

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Originally Posted by Jevyod
Originally Posted by Al_Nyhus
Originally Posted by Jevyod
I will need to measure the O.D. once I get home this evening. The brass was already necked up to 338

Also, make sure the case neck isn't bottoming out at the end of the chamber neck.

Just a few things to check before firing a few on an unknown chamber..... -Al

Not sure I understand how to check this? I do know after necking up my brass the length was shorter than the "trim to" length in the manuals.


Brownell’s chamber length gauges


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Originally Posted by super T
Do you have a 45ACP sizing die? If you do try running your rifle cases through it after taking the decapping pin out etc. The head/web expansion of the case may be the problem.


Some 45acp dies aren't deep enough to allow 30-06 family cases all the way in. I have a 45acp die I had the top bored through and works great for squeezing case bases.


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From .17 to .338, I use 'em all the time....there's a lathe made .375 in there, too. There's also additional ones for tight neck chambers. -Al

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Originally Posted by Jevyod
Also, the fact that the fit was "less tight" as I screwed the sizing die in farther...does that not mean it is a tight headspace issue?

That was my thoughts exactly! Personally I would set my shell holder on a piece of flat sand paper and hone 2 thou off the face of it being careful to measure with a set of calipers as I go to ensure squareness. I've done it before, its pretty easy. If the brass has been fired more than 3 times you could also anneal your brass and likely solve the problem since the shoulder would not spring back so much


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How are you measuring what's actually happening as you're screwing the die down, shortening shell holder, etc, etc?


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I am not, that is why I am asking. I don't have tools to measure actual headspace. I am going off of several things here, first, like I mentioned before I am assuming that since the bolt closes easier as I screw the die in further, something is moving the right direction. Also I took a sized case back to my gunsmith ( along with the gun) and he pulled the firing pin and chambered the round. He said the headspace was slightly tight, but in his opinion it was actually about perfect. He didn't use any case gauges etc to check. I also has him run his 30-06 go no go gauges in the chamber, and the 1 barely made contact. All that to say, I probably know just enough about headspace to be dangerous.

I want to be sensible Handloader, but not sure where else to go. I don't know anyone locally that could help me figure it out, else I would get some help.


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First off...good for you for having it checked. smile

At this point, I'd suggest firing a couple rounds and then using those fired cases to properly set up your dies for the amount of shoulder push back.

If you have a good dial caliper, I'd be happy to provide you with a little gauge I make to check the amount of shoulder 'bump'.

Good shootin'. -Al


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For [bleep], measure the diameter of the case body just behind the shoulder. I had a rifle a couple years ago that was not headspacing on the shoulder, it was headspacing on the body taper because the chamber body diameter was too small. By the time the case body was squeezed down enough to chamber with a reasonable amount of force (more than I liked but not enough to pry the handle off the bolt), the distance from bolt face to shoulder was wildly excessive. It may not be relevant .. but it might be.


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Have wrestled with this problem many times over the years--and not just with handloads.

Once owned a Remington 700 .300 Winchester Magnum that wouldn't chamber even factory ammo easily--and some rounds not at all, including Remington. Eventually ended up lapping the locking lugs enough to solve the problem.

Somebody mentioned this earlier, but "painting" a case with a Magic Marker and then chambering (or attempting to chamber) the round will often reveal the problem area.

Have also more than occasionally encountered FL loading dies that did NOT match up well with the rifle's chamber....


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Piling on - great earlier suggestion about using a 45 ACP die to reduce the diameter of the cases base enough to determine if that's the problem, but keep in mind that, just like squeezing a tube of toothpaste, narrowing the base of the case that little bit is going to push the shoulder forward. You might need to run the case back into a FL die to fix the shoulder after you use a 45 ACP die to fix the base. Yeah...it shouldn't be that hard.
So...

And the answer to the question - "how does new virgin brass chamber" would be really good to know at this point. No need to hunt up 338-06, just a factory 30-06 round or new empty case would do. If it chambers fine, then neck up that new case in your 338-06 die and see if it still does.

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Originally Posted by Jevyod
I recently acquired a 338-06 and started working on running some Nosler 30-06 brass through my Lee 338-06 sizing die. I adjusted the die down until it made contact with the shell holder and ran a piece of brass through. Loaded the empty brass into the chamber, and the bolt had to be forced closed. Hmm, need more shoulder setback. I ended up adjusting the die down until it cammed over pretty hard. Sized the same piece of brass and tried chambering again. Better, but I can still feel a bit of resistance when I close the bolt. Tried switching from my RCBS shell holder to the Lee. Same thing. Is there any reason not to shoot as it is? I am sure it won't stick in the chamber so hard I can't open the bolt, nowhere near that tight.

Will I run into pressure quicker if I shoot as sized now? Or would you just shoot it as is? I wonder if the chamber was cut on the tight side, and if so, makes me curious to whether it was on purpose. It is a BRNO Mauser with an aftermarket barrel, my gunsmith said if he had to guess he would guess a Douglas barrel.

My understanding is I could solve the problem by getting a machinist to grind .008-.010 off the surface of my shell holder, and I am not opposed to going that route. There is a good machinist just down the road from my place, I am sure he would do it for me.
What kind of rifle is it? I had a problem with a hard bolt closure on a Remington XP-100 R only to find out that the extractor was causing all of my problems.

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It is a BRNO Mauser with an aftermarket barrel. Really wish I knew who did the work!


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Sounds like a go / no go gauge set might be in order.


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Originally Posted by T_O_M
Sounds like a go / no go gauge set might be in order.
My gunsmith checked it out with his, and he said it looks fine


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So I went more in depth here. I tried some once fire RP brass. Before sizing, it chambered fine, I couldn't feel resistance. After sizing, the bolt definitely closed with more pressure. Not that bad, but definitely there. I colored that same case with a marker, and it is hard to see but there appears to be a ring right at the neck/shoulder junction. I measured the rest of the case, right below the shoulder/body junction, midway down the case, and at the bottom. All those measurements were within .001 of an unsized case. So what can I learn based off of these further developments? Need some wiser heads helping me out here. Thanks!


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Expander ball pulling shoulder when ball retracted from case? Are you lubing inside case neck?


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I am trying to angle Hornady one shot inside the mouths, but apparently not enough! So what about the 95 pcs Nosler brass I sized already? They will prob have way to much headspace?!


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Originally Posted by Jevyod
I am trying to angle Hornady one shot inside the mouths, but apparently not enough! So what about the 95 pcs Nosler brass I sized already? They will prob have way to much headspace?!


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For FL sizing dies that have an expander ball I lube inside necks. I use an appropriate size bore mop with lube applied to mop. Since I'm an old fud I still use RCBS lube. You could apply your One Shot to bore mop.

When inserting mop into case neck I try to ensure I get a good dose of lube at inside shoulder/case neck junction. This is where expander ball engages neck first, so most important imo.

Some brass will develop a doughnut for lack of a better description at the shoulder/neck junction due to brass flowing here during the case firing. This brass flow is why cases need to be trimmed as needed due to aol increases.

Your cases may not have this doughnut. Probably not, dunno. However, doughnuts do add additional resistance when retracting, pulling expander ball out of case potentially moving shoulder/neck junction to where case seems to have headspace changed. Result might be the shiny ring displayed as on case in your photo.

If you have a fired case that bolt closes ok on, remove the expander ball from your FL die and size case. Then see if sized case <that expander ball has not been pulled through neck> chambers and bolt closes ok.

Please post results if you do this.


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It appears to also have a contact line about 2/3rds the way down the shoulder? Tough to tell from the pic but there may be some taper above the neck/shoulder contact point. Could be a bit of upper shoulder, could be a thickened lower case neck (since the lower is what was once shoulder prior to being necked up)...hard to say. It might just need she shoulder pushed back a couple thou., too. At this point, it's hard to phone in the answer.

Remove the primer and with a caliper and and a cartridge gauge, measure it. Then tweak the die adjustment a small bit and remeasure. It might get longer before the case shoulder firmly contacts the shoulder area of the die and gets shorter. Go slow, and measure each you adjust the die.

Good shootin' -Al


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Originally Posted by Mr_TooDogs
For FL sizing dies that have an expander ball I lube inside necks. I use an appropriate size bore mop with lube applied to mop. Since I'm an old fud I still use RCBS lube. You could apply your One Shot to bore mop.

When inserting mop into case neck I try to ensure I get a good dose of lube at inside shoulder/case neck junction. This is where expander ball engages neck first, so most important imo.

Some brass will develop a doughnut for lack of a better description at the shoulder/neck junction due to brass flowing here during the case firing. This brass flow is why cases need to be trimmed as needed due to aol increases.

Your cases may not have this doughnut. Probably not, dunno. However, doughnuts do add additional resistance when retracting, pulling expander ball out of case potentially moving shoulder/neck junction to where case seems to have headspace changed. Result might be the shiny ring displayed as on case in your photo.

If you have a fired case that bolt closes ok on, remove the expander ball from your FL die and size case. Then see if sized case <that expander ball has not been pulled through neck> chambers and bolt closes ok.

Please post results if you do this.

Did it this morning. Took an unsized RP piece of brass, it chambered fine. Ran it through the sizing die ( with the shell holder adjusted to just cam over a tiny bit) and chambered again. Again it chambered with no resistance.


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Originally Posted by Al_Nyhus
It appears to also have a contact line about 2/3rds the way down the shoulder? Tough to tell from the pic but there may be some taper above the neck/shoulder contact point. Could be a bit of upper shoulder, could be a thickened lower case neck (since the lower is what was once shoulder prior to being necked up)...hard to say. It might just need she shoulder pushed back a couple thou., too. At this point, it's hard to phone in the answer.

Remove the primer and with a caliper and and a head space gauge, measure it. Then tweak the die adjustment a small bit and remeasure. It might get longer before the case shoulder firmly contacts the shoulder area of the die and gets shorter. Go slow, and measure each you adjust the die.

Good shootin' -Al

I looked at that brass again this morning, and could not see the line with the naked eye. Doesn't mean it isn't there, I do know the bright flash can really make things look worse than they are. If I remember right when I was coloring with the sharpie, some of the shoulder I colored horizontal instead of vertical like the rest. Maybe just how I colored it?


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I also took a case that was fired in my 30-06, and tried to chamber it. It didn't chamber at all. Ran it through the die with the expander ball removed and chambered again. Again it chambered with zero resistance. So it seems like at this point we can firmly rule out a headspace problem? I will try lubing the inside case neck with some rcbs lube I still have left, and see what happens when I neck it up again.


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Eureka! Plenty of lube inside the case neck did it! I noticed immediately how much easier it sized. Never did the necking up thing, I guess I didn't know what normal pressure was to neck it up. That was a bit of a duh thing for me, should have known better. Thanks for your help folks! I am glad I asked on here. Honestly I was still a bit nervous just calling it a tight chamber and firing it as is. Had I done that, I figure somewhere along the line I would have had case head separation. I guess I will chuck the Nosler brass and chalk it up to a good learning experience!


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Originally Posted by Jevyod
I also took a case that was fired in my 30-06, and tried to chamber it. It didn't chamber at all. Ran it through the die with the expander ball removed and chambered again. Again it chambered with zero resistance. So it seems like at this point we can firmly rule out a headspace problem? I will try lubing the inside case neck with some rcbs lube I still have left, and see what happens when I neck it up again.
Now might be the time to measure your expander ball and see if it's a bit over size. You have looked at about everything else. Great thread. It looks like you have it figured out.

kwg

Last edited by kwg020; 02/25/23.

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This was a great thread full of good information. Thanks guys.

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Jevyod, so far so good. Your testing where expander is removed from die would suggest that you do not have a headspace issue. The FL die as installed in press where shell holder bumps die base, camming over a bit, sets back the case shoulder and sizes the case body taper to where case will chamber ok.

I assume you don't have tooling to measure the shoulder setback after FL sizing so an assumption is that the die is manufactured to give an acceptable shoulder setback where you are not excessively shortening the case.

I use bore mops to clean inside case neck, both before sizing and after sizing. No brushes here as I do not want to rough up the surface of the case neck. My preferred solvent is PVC pipe cleaner. Kinda nasty stuff but does remove loose powder fouling, case lube, and evaps proper. I suppose Isoalcohol or other solvents are good to. Pardon my rambling here.

I suggest you examine expander for any roughness. Polish expander might be a good option too.


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[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
This is what the Lee expanding rod looks like. Almost like they expect people to neck up brass! But again, thanks for all the good suggestions and the help!
Now I will run the brass through the tumbler to clean off all the RCBS lube!


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Sound like the smith short chambered the barrel to help with case life. I would think you could buy a shell holder set of various thickness.

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So going forward, what's you plan to know how far you're pushing the shoulder back during resizing?

You're almost there, by the way. wink

Good shootin' -Al


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Originally Posted by Al_Nyhus
So going forward, what's you plan to know how far you're pushing the shoulder back during resizing?

You're almost there, by the way. wink

Good shootin' -Al

Well Al, he can use either a 40 S&W or 45 ACP case if I remember correctly or the Hornady case gauge.



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That's a good trick Swifty, pistol case that is.

I invested a good amount of time spinning my own gages on lathe.


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A pistol case, the Hornady checker or this brass gizmo I make will all work.

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Originally Posted by Al_Nyhus
So going forward, what's you plan to know how far you're pushing the shoulder back during resizing?

You're almost there, by the way. wink

Good shootin' -Al

I was thinking I should get on of Hornady's headspace gauge kit, but was not finding 338-06?


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Either way Al, you threw out a bone with no meat. I just added some cheap meat. I would use the pistol case for now and who knows he may not see the need to spend 50 bucks on the Hornady.



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Wait, the 30-06 will work because it headspaces the same?!


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Yep.
👍



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Sorry I just saw the 45 acp method. That is cheap and easy, as I have 45 acp brass at home. But yes, I was planning on checking the headspace for real this next go around!


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Felt pen or smoke the case and find where its tight


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Originally Posted by Jevyod
Originally Posted by Al_Nyhus
So going forward, what's you plan to know how far you're pushing the shoulder back during resizing?

You're almost there, by the way. wink

Good shootin' -Al

I was thinking I should get on of Hornady's headspace gauge kit, but was not finding 338-06?

In my post of 2-23 (#18169949), I offered to send to you one that I make. No need to buy anything. wink

Good shootin' -Al


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That's very good of you Al! Hope Jevyod takes you up on that offer.


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Originally Posted by Al_Nyhus
Originally Posted by Jevyod
Originally Posted by Al_Nyhus
So going forward, what's you plan to know how far you're pushing the shoulder back during resizing?

You're almost there, by the way. wink

Good shootin' -Al

I was thinking I should get on of Hornady's headspace gauge kit, but was not finding 338-06?

In my post of 2-23 (#18169949), I offered to send to you one that I make. No need to buy anything. wink

Good shootin' -Al

Very kind of you sir! Pm sent


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Have wrestled with this problem many times over the years--and not just with handloads.

Once owned a Remington 700 .300 Winchester Magnum that wouldn't chamber even factory ammo easily--and some rounds not at all, including Remington. Eventually ended up lapping the locking lugs enough to solve the problem.

Somebody mentioned this earlier, but "painting" a case with a Magic Marker and then chambering (or attempting to chamber) the round will often reveal the problem area.

Have also more than occasionally encountered FL loading dies that did NOT match up well with the rifle's chamber....
Have a similar issue with a custom 300 Winchester mag. RCBS and Redding dies would not keep the shoulder bumped to fit the minimum chamber, but a Forster FL sizer worked.


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So an update on my journey with this gun. First off a big thank you to all who helped here. The sharpie trick made it easy to spot where the pressure was. Second, Al sent me one of his "brass gizmos" and I received it last week. I had loaded up several and fired them using Big Game powder. I then used the headspace tool Al sent me to measure how much the case stretched during firing. It looks like my cases stretched .003-.004 inches when firing, which I did not think was bad at all. But now that I have that tool, I can set the shoulder back a particular amount when I resize. I believe I will start at .002!
I think I just turned a corner in my reloading hobby. Since I started reloading 11 years ago, I never measured headspace. Just adjusted until the shell holder touched, and a bit more until it slightly "cammed over". But now I have a feeling I will be wanting to measure headspace on all the rifles I load for! Funny how some guys go all their lives and never worry about headspace. I have an older guy I am friends with who has helped me on occasion with reloading questions. I don't think he ever measures headspace, and he has been at it a lot longer than I have!


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Glad it worked out for you. smile once a person is able to measure what's happening when setting up dies, things get a lot easier and make more sense.

Good shootin' -Al


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Something I learned from JB: To prevent expander ball induced case stretching, you can neck expand in a separate step (after sizing without the expander ball stem in place) by running the case UP into the sizer die with a lowered expander ball. Lubricant inside the case neck is still needed. I suppose there's a chance of case shortening or some shoulder setback with this method. JB says the above described method keeps the neck straighter (if your sizeer die is reamed straight), too. -Mark & Belle

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