Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 223 Rem, New school or old school twist rate?

Of course this is a generalization, but I will tell you from experience and 10’s of thousands of rounds through various 223 rifles I can’t agree. I have 2 fast twist firearms, a Sako 85 varmint and a Wilson Combat AR. Neither will shoot 40 or 50 grain bullets worth a darn. For some reason that all changes with a 55 grain VMax. So I can tell you there are 2 fast twist guns that won’t shoot light bullets.

I do shoot a lot of varmints and I will stick to the lighter 40 grain bullets as they produce the desired effect on gophers and prairie dogs that support the success of that combination to 300 yards with ease. A fast twist bullet won’t beat it at that range…

That’s the same darned reason I’ve gotten into them. Pretty good training for using others at an easy to shoot price. Beyond that, they’re just fun.

It's the gas port, as it relates to bullet jacket. Worst offender may be the old Remington PLHP. Have thousands, both 50gr and 55 gr. All my A1 1:12s tear them up, as do all 1:7 A2s. Doesn't matter if the barrel is new or about shot out. My Daewoo K2 does the same, as does a 1:9 Stag. Wouldn't surprise me if Blitz or SX bullets gave similar results, but don't know.

Frequency varies by barrel. Best case is an occasional flyer in an otherwise very nice group.

700 action, 222 twisted 1:12 (with appropriate throat length*), 542 yards, my first shot on this guy. In fairness, the wind picked up a bit in the afternoon so I kept it under 400 then.

If it only would have an 8 twist, it might really be something. Maybe next Christmas...if I'm really good all year????



The 'fire is always good for a chuckle to start the morning.

Good shootin' -Al

* This might be important.

Now, Al....don't go gettin' these guys all confused with facts.

Plus, everybody knows you need less freebore for the longer/heavier bullets than for the shorter/lighter ones....'cuz the heavy bullets are more pointy and high speedy/low dragy-ish, right? They're some of those "...modern bullets that aren't affected by the wind", doncha know? That's the best bit of spewage to come across here lately.

Certainly, SAMMI must have stuff all screwed up with the .045 free bore length relative to the .090 long standard for bullets like the Sierra 69's and 77's. And the .110 free bore for the Berger 80's....clearly some designers wet dream. I mean, it's not like there are some of us that actually get out there and do this stuff, right? Backing up a bit, the SAMMI .045 is shockingly close to the .040 I suggested early in in this goat roping. Weird..........

Hope all is well with you, buddy. -Al

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

😳

🤣🤣🤣🤣

👍

Al,

I’m guessing this was directed at me. In my above post, I was asking and wanting to discuss in good faith. I’ve certainly experienced what I described above (many times), so I wanted to get your take, as well.

Not at all, Jordan. More of an observation on the bigger picture of things here.



Jordan, my initial suggestions had nothing to do with magazine length limitations. If the chamber is throated correctly for bullet being used, mag. length is a distant 3rd. on the list of importance.

If, on the other hand, mag. length is the dimension around which everything else has to work, then you make other compromises. Work the problem backward from that. Or do what it takes to correct the mag. length issue so you don't have to compromise on the throat.

I've already gone further on this than I should have. Or will going forward. A smart guy once told me that after about 5 replies to any question here, things start circling the drain.....a pretty accurate observation.

Good shootin' Jordan. -Al

Here’s a screen shot from a post on another forum, it’s a decent guide.




My Tikka 1-10” shoots 50 gr bullets very well but doesn’t like the 75 grainers.

My Tikka Varmint 1-8” shoots 75 gr ELDM like a house on fire.






P

I have a .223 with a 1:9 that shoots 55's to 70 grain bullets well, but my main long range rifle is a 1: 8, and , and I plan on rebarreling another action to 1:7.5.
These are long range TR rifles though , not hunters .
Cat

I have a 1:12 twist Remington 788 223 Rem in a beautiful custom stock that's quite accurate with 62gr bullets and lighter. Just got some 55gr Gamekings that's begging for a range session. Otherwise this is a varmint/coyote gun. I'm not interested in using it on edible game such as deer or hogs. Other chamberings are better for that role. For my purposes I'm happy with 1:12 twist

My mistake, Al. Thanks for the reply.

I completely agree. This is not a new thing we're discussing, but it's something that many haven't thought much about. Within a given weight class, a shorter bullet typically has a shorter-radius ogive that results in a shorter bullet body base-to-ogive length. When comparing bullets in very different weight classes, however, I agree that the shorter bullet certainly requires a shorter throat. 'Stick has posted lots of good photos comparing bullet BTO, but here's a pic illustrating same. The bullets are aligned where the ogive meets the bullet body (ogive reaches 0.224" diameter).

L-to-R, all .224": 40 gr Sierra HP, 50 gr Rem PSP, 55 gr SP, 69 gr Scenar, 69 gr MK, 75 gr ELD-M



Assuming the bullet body should stay at or above the case shoulder/neck junction, when comparing against the 75 ELD, both the 69 Scenar and MK require a longer throat to just contact the lands. When going down in weight significantly, the 55 gr SP and 75 ELD require similar throat lengths, but the 40 HP and 50 SP both need a shorter throat than the 75 ELD.

Hah, wise words and very true.

That’s why fellas like me don’t find much negative to a standard chambered 223 or whatever mostly. I’ll use 40-55 NBT or VMax-ELD up to 75 ELD / 77 TMKs. The plain old 223 chamber works like a champ and a 7/8 twist doesn’t seem to care what’s scooting along it.

Have mentioned this before here and there, but Ruger made a run 1-8 twist .223 Americans some years ago. Around that time a guy (whose name I can't remember) made a mold that formed a plastic magazine extension for the standard RAR .223 magazine. Eventually Darrik Caraway, of Whittaker Guns in Kentucky, bought the mold, and sent me two of the extensions. It was pretty easy to fit one to the factory magazine, and rounds up to 2.5 inches long feed perfectly--which adds about 1/4" to the standard SAAMI OAL.

I wasn't looking for more powder room (which wouldn't make a significant difference in velocity anyway) as much as more flexibility in seating longer bullets for finer accuracy. It works very well, and of course RARs are known for fine accuracy--though not good looks.

Unfortunately, not long afterward the mold locked up, and as far as I know Darrik has never gotten it "unlocked." But I do have another of these extensions, just in case....

I have one of them Predators with the green stock. That rifle shot everything darned well too. I shot a pile of factory thru it back when I got it cause I was stationed on Lejeune and didn’t have much to do other than shoot on the weekends so I bought and tried everything I could. From the 40 grain Federal BTs to the 77 Black Hills stuff I scrounged from the teams ammo now again…. It’s was a hammer. I let my cousin borrow it 5-6 years ago and he hasn’t given it back yet! Great shooting little guns.

John;
Good afternoon, I hope you and Eileen are well and you're getting a bit of a break in the cold as we are today - after the fresh snow this morning of course.

Thanks for the photo of that Ruger American, it looks like it might be the same vintage as the one I picked up back when?

I'd have to look to see when I got mine, but it was one of the first ones with the l:8 twist that came up here.

It had a black stock when I got it and the fore end was the old style floopy type that needs to be really and truly hogged out - with a rasp as you wrote if I'm remembering correctly.



I was able to connect with Darrik and obtain two of the magazine extensions as well, though mine aren't that color - they're a dark grey - but as you noted they do give options for sure.

The chap who invented that extension is "cotis" here on the 'Fire who has a background in making fairly complex machinery if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks again and all the best to you both.

Dwayne

Hi Dwayne,

Thanks, we're doing well--and we did get a break in the supposed "cold trend" that's been predicted for several days now. When I accompanied Lena the Labrador on our daily afternoon hike it was over 40 Fahrenheit--and even better the wind wasn't blowing!

Thanks for jogging my memory about "cotis."

Nice job on the paint! I did have to rasp out the barrel channel on my 1-8 RAR--but that's more the rule than exception, or at least it was until the stocks were stiffened after a few years production. Have owned two 6.5 Creedmoor Predators that didn't need any rasping.

Good hunting,
John

That works for me. I have a Remington 700 with a 1 in 9 twist that prefers the 40 to 60 grain bullets. My 1 in 8 twist with a 223 Wylde chamber prefers the 69 to 75 grain bullets.