Home Forums Reloading Handgun Reloading 3 Problems Loading .38 Special for the first time

I'm an experienced rifle cartridge reloader but haven't bothered with handgun cartridges in a long time. However, I decided to get into .38 Special loading just for fun. I bought a 4 die set from Lee. Here's the 3 problems:

1) My loads often wouldn't fit into some of my revolver chambers. I think this is because I can't hold the bullets straight up, and they are going in slightly sideway and in effect creating a "bent" round. When I'm better about getting one in straight, it will load. I don't crimp with my seater die, only the Lee "FCD" die. Supposedly, any cartridge run through there will fit any chamber, but it hasn't proved true for me.

2) The main problem, because it is dangerous, is squib loads. I have been able to detect these, so far, because of the different sound. For safety, I've been shooting at 10 feet so I can be sure if the bullet is exiting the barrel. I'm loading 158 gr. Hornady XTP hollow points. I do not think I am forgetting to load a round with powder because I check each round with a flashlight before beginning the bullet seating. My load is 3.7 grs. of HP-38. I'm using the Lee Powder measure which provides a very smooth throw but I'm not weighing every charge. I check the first 3 or 4 and then trust the measure to do its job.

3) Twice I have had a squib load with only the jacket left in the barrel. Somehow the jacket is getting stripped off. For all I know, this could be happening on the non-squib loads and the next round is blowing the jacket out of the barrel. I'm going to have to start checking the barrel after every shot.

I was looking at Hodgdon load data it shows:

Hornady 158 XTP

Min 3.8 Max 4.3

Any help or comments with any or all of these issues would be appreciated.

I would guess you aren’t putting a sufficient bell on the case mouth before trying to seat a bullet. You need a visible bell on the case mouth, doesn’t need to be huge but bullets should start easily. If you do this the seating die should align and seat the bullet straight.

Up your powder charge. You’re under the minimum and powders need a certain amount of pressure to burn like they’re supposed to. This may be causing erratic pressures and your squibs.

If you’re just making plinking loads id suggest you invest in some lead bullets, they’re cheaper and you don’t have to worry about sticking a jacket. They also require less pressure to send down the barrel.

what TheKid said....enough bell that the bullet easily sits on the bell w/o tipping over

But not too much you have to force into seater die

Or.........Lyman 'M' series expander die

Use the M die in all my handgun loading

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011246697?pid=368112

You are using the #4 FCD (factory crimp die) in the set die set right ?


Woops..I see you are.........

Those things are golden especially in autos

Thanks,

I am flaring the mouths enough to where I can actually get the bullet to stand up in the case on its own. However, before I started doing this I was getting a much higher percentage of crooked bullets. I actually run the cylindrical part of the expander all the way to where the bullet ends.

I will increase the powder to, I guess, 4.0 grains.

Do cast lead bullets take the same powder charge as jacketed?

I watched a video on the Lyman M die and the Lee Universal Expanding die and the insert looks pretty much like what comes with the Lee expander die. Unless I can order a larger diameter one from Lyman or Lee I don't see that this would do anything differently, or am I wrong?

It expands in 2 stages.......

Again I use 'em in all my straight wall pistol cases

Your mileage may vary

Keep using the #4 Lee FCD !

Have any other bullets ??

The XTP isn't cheap just to mess around with......

Look here......test some of these.....cast too

https://www.evergladesammo.com/bullets/handgun-bullets.html?caliber=73

Well, I've already got 500 Missouri bullets, Brinell hardness 12, on the way. At least with them I won't have to worry about jackets being left in the barrel.

It looks like the Lyman M die is what I need, but Midway is out and Lyman doesn't even list them on their website.

Jacketed bullets encounter greater friction in the bore. Non jacketed lead, cast or swaged are less likely to stick at low pressure. Also lighter bullets that have jackets can be pushed faster with less pressure.

Might not hurt to remove and inspect the seater plug for dirt or defect.

Sometimes pistol powders will have 'bridging' in the powder thrower, and not let all the powder fall through.

Try giving the measure a tap on the side each throw, and visually inspect powder levels for uniformity.

4.0 HP-38 is what I would consider the absolute minimum for cast bullets, let alone jacketed slugs. Unless you're loading for an alloy-framed J frame revolver, I'd suggest upping the charge substantially. HP-38 and 231 are the same powder, I started out using 4.0 gr. 231 with a Speer 158 swaged lead bullet, it was a nice modest load that shot well in my M28-2 and my buddy's M36, too. You'd get the same results with 5.0 in a .357 case, pretty much.

When your Missouri bullets come in, by all means use something like the 4.0 or bump it a bit to 4.5gr. I know lots of folks who'd use a lot more than that, but that's just a good start to learn the revolver and it's characteristics. I'd never use the 158 jacketed hollow points with such a mild load. They probably won't expand, anyway, so don't waste them with mouse loads. Keep your loads around 850-900 fps, and shoot the heck out of it.

Cast or swaged lead bullets will work fine at those speeds. Jacketed, not so much.

I found myself in a similar situation. Some times it seems I belled the cases too much and others not enough and the bullet was slightly crooked. I bought a .357 trim die. I dial it down as low as it will go toward the ram. I run the loaded case into the trim die just enough to know that the case mouth is straight and any bulges are flattened. Since the trim die is maximum case dimensions it doesn't appear I am squeezing the case into the bullet and changing bullet dimensions. I'm just eliminating any bulges.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012624638?pid=561313

kwg

Amazon.......Bezos may have em

Or Midway the 10th

Amazon didn't have it.

I found a company, NOE Bullet Molds, that sells the Lee Universal Expander Die, and a .358" expander which may help.

Do you have the correct shell holder in the press? No chance you actually have the die screwed down far enough that it’s crimping and buckling the case? Have you taken the seating stem out of the die and checked to make sure it isn’t a flat seater for wadcutters, this might cause a bullet not started straight to tip.

I’m just trying to picture what could be going on here and I can’t figure it out. If case mouths have sufficient bell on them I don’t think I have a single due set that doesn’t center the bullet up on its own. I think I’d have to TRY to get one to seat crooked or bend and I’m not sure I could do it.

I would at least check every ten rounds of you powder throw. With only 3.7 grains, the least deviation of your method to throw powder can cause variations. Before throwing each load, strike the handle one or twice, being very careful to strike it the same every time. Do not raise the handle enough to let it drop powder. Then drop the powder.This insures you will get an even packing of the powder.

At 3.7gr, you are down at the very lowest limit amount for the Lee measure. I suspect your squib loads are from a variation of your powder throws. My RCBS measure has a drum for large rifle loads and one for handgun loads.

I load 38 sp, loads in a .357 case and my load is 4.5 gr of W231 or Universal behind 158 gr cast or jacketed bullets. Your loading manual should have data for cast bullets and jacketed bullets separately.

I would also look at the seating stem of your 38 dies to see if it is the correct contour to match the bullet, although even a flat seater should work. You could also try a slightly bigger shell holder if you have them, or take the spring out of the ram to let the shell holder float a bit. I had the same problem with 9mm and that fixed it, but the 9mm semi is a little less forgiving than a revolver. I have loaded over 20,000 .357 's and 38 sp and never had this problem.

You do not need the Lee FCD. The roll crimp in the seater die should be enough for the heaviest crimp. One problem I have had with Lee dies is the expander plug not being long enough to expand the case to the full length of the bullet. You set the bullet and it starts straight,but when it gets to the end of the expanded portion it wants to drift due to the extra force needed to seat it deeper. I have had to make some myself. You might check that.

Also might check the diameter of the expander plug. I make mine .002 smaller than the bullet. Even .001 is ok

According to Hodgon’s data 3.7g of HP-38 is 0.1 grain below the starting load with a jacketed bullet. I use 3.7 grains of 231 (same as HP-38) behind a 158 grain cast swc and have shot thousands of those in competition without incident - the starting load is 3.1 grains (with 158 grain lead). Just my experience - yours may vary.

PennDog

Okay, I think we have the jacket shedding and squib load issue (probably) addressed. I'll up the charge to 4.0 grs. and for a while at least I'm going to weigh every charge until I find out how accurate the measure is. If necessary, I'll start setting the measure to throw light and then use a powder trickler to bring the charge up to exact weight.

As for the crooked seating of bullets, I suppose, after I get the Missouri bullets in I'll see if I still have the problem.

I'm just surprised that everyone who uses the Lee dies doesn't have this same problem. At the very least, they should be getting some very ugly loads with the front ends bulged out larger than the portion behind.

Mirrors my experience also. Since jacketed bullets in a .38 are foreign to me I followed Hodgdon's recipe for lead 158 SWC's and started with 3.1 grains HP-38. Works fine. Groups tightly in my Colt Officer's Model and K-38, and rings steel and dances empty soda cans at the plinking range - so what if it's a super light load, I'm not shooting desperados or stopping bear charges here. Actually, the only reason I messed with HP-38 is because a can of it showed up from I-don't-know-where and figured I'd give it a whirl. A moot point as I'm sitting on a really swell amount of Bullseye, Red Dot, and Clays.

OP, try starting the bulleted case into your die ever so slightly, like, the bullet just barely starting into the case, then back up and spin the cartridge 180 degrees and then go back in to completely seat it. If the one-sided bulge goes away then, that'll tell you that you have concentricity issues somewhere in your setup. To sit here and diagnose your problem without seeing it is the height of folly.

You don’t need the M die…
Ive never had good luck with lee dies
Get a set of Redding or rcbs carbide
I think you’ll have better luck!

DO NOT USE THE LEE FCD IF YOU ARE LOADING LEAD BULLETS. Yes I am screaming, who the hell cares if i hurt your feelings. But, the fcd will swage the bullet too small and you will end up leading your barrel. The fcd is made for jacketed bullets only. The M-die is also a waste of money and is not needed. Get your expansion die set right and you will not have a problem. If you send your seater plug into LEE with a few of the bullets you plan to use they will make a seater plug to the bullet you are using. Or you can do it yourself with epoxy.

I see people are still answering so I thought I'd give a status update:

1) Squibs and jackets left in the barrel
I decided to go with 4.2 grains in case my Lee Perfect Powder Measure threw light sometimes. I found that the measure is accurate to about .2 grains, but the "off" charges were always high, so my charges are 4.2 - 4.4 grains. HOWEVER, after throwing 20 charges my hopper cut off and I threw an empty charge. What happened is that I must have accidentally bumped the feed on/off slide. This is, of course, extremely dangerous so I taped the slide in place. Also keeping my eye on the tape.

2) Cocked bullets. Yeah, I do the 180 swivel to get the bullets as close to straight up as possible, but I'm still having problems. The bullet seating stem looks like it fits these bullets. Anyway, I'm giving up on the XTPs and will wait for the Missouri bullets. I'm having to start over, pulling all bullets, dumping all loads, and resizing. I found a Lyman M Die at Natchez and ordered it and will see if it helps. If it works, then I'm done, if it doesn't then I'll send some of both type bullets off to Lee to get custom seating stems made.

That Lyman M-die will fix most of your problems. If you are still having problems with bullets seating crooked then there is something wrong with your seating die setup. If you really want to eliminate the runout invest in a Redding Competition seating die. They are probably worth every dime they cost. But thankfully they are often on sale either at Midway or Amazon. Once I got one , I had to have one for every handgun caliber I own that they make one for. Come to think of it I did the same with M-dies. Both really make it much easier to make excellent arrow straight handloads.

yep

money well spent

I bought a Lyman M die. To me it looks exactly like my gray box RCBS die.
Case expanding becomes more critical using lead bullets. If you don’t bell enough you will be shaving lead off the bullets.
Powder measures are great but every now and then they will throw a lite charge.
This works for me and is a lot faster than you might think. Hasbeen

well I never use a Lee factory crimp die on revolver ammo , but I have used it on thousands up on thousands of rounds of a 45 ACP & 9mm with lead bullets I've never had an issue. but then again one has to have enough gray matter in the brain to read the instructions and learn not to set it up to squeeze the bullet..

I run cast bullets from Rim Rock in my 9's.....10's and 45 autos

Use the FCD every load w/o any issues

I load my .38s with a Lee 4 die set. I am very surprised to hear of your issues, especially #1 and #3.

#2 I highly suspect your powder thrower. You get what you pay for here, and without absolute quality you need to measure every charge. I ditched a Hornady Load and Load charge dispenser as I was getting inconsistent results too many times. Purchased a RCBS Matchmaster and have had excellent results for both pistol and rifle loads.
You have to push XTPs faster than what you are doing definitely. I looked at Lee 2nd edition book, it shows same data as you do - 3.8 min, 4.3 max for HP-38. That is mouse fart speed for an XTP in a regular .38 special. No sense using that bullet going that slow, it will never expand.

I load 95% of my .38s and 100% of .32 S&W long with Missouri Bullet Company Hi-Tek coated cast bullets. I use the 158 grain .38 Match-GL bullet. I believe the Hi-Tek coating makes a big difference, lowers the friction compared to an uncoated lead bullet.

#1 - I use the Lee powder dispenser die to expand the case mouth slightly. I plunk test all loaded rounds using a Lyman case gauge block and have yet to have one fail.

I use the Lee FCD die 100% of the time. I get EXACTLY what I want from the slightest kiss on .32 S&W long rounds to a solid crimp on full house 240grain .44mag hunting loads. Why someone thinks a single die performing two operations at the same time (seating and crimping) will do better makes no sense to me. Sure it is faster, but better?

I loaded some "mouse fart" loads for my friend who wants his mother to practice with a model 36 2" barrel .38 special. Load data was 3.1 to 3.7gr for 158 cast bullet, I loaded them at 3.4gr and specially labeled them for just that pistol. I wouldn't shoot that load in my 6" model 14 in the winter for example, I would be concerned with it not exiting 100% of the time. Your loads are barely above that with a XTP bullet which I wouldn't trust at all.

I use the Redding 3BR powder measure

Works well with all powders

But especially well with ball/sperical powders

Knew a guy with the Lee powder measure...just didn't look/feel quality


https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012961815?pid=246394

Probably the first time I have heard of someone worried about runout on pistol cartridges........interesting!

Everything I load for handgun is a SWC or TC profile I cast myself. When I began my journey I noticed slivers of lead at the case mouth after seating, so I paid stricter attention to how much flaring I applied. I saw improvement, but still a few tiny slivers of lead after seating so I bought extra seater dies so I could seat and then crimp in separate steps (I leave lockrings alone once a die is set up). Then I noticed unevenly bulged cases where the bullet shank is concealed in the case and at that point I modified my seating technique: I raise the ram slowly until I feel the bullet touching the seating stem and very lightly tap it a couple of times, then seat the bullet just a bit deeper in two or three steps until it's fully seated. The bulge is still there (as it SHOULD be), but now it'll be nice and even all the way around. Any crimp I apply is just enough to remove any taper for cartridges that headspace on the case mouth, and roll crimp is applied as needed for revolver cartridges. The grip that the case has on a bullet should be established by the sizing die alone.

I have two Lee die sets for 38. I keep one set adjusted for 357 Mags and the other set for 38s. I’ve loaded thousands of rounds of each with nary a problem. I wish I could see your setup because I can’t picture in my head what is going on.

Contrary to what others will tell you, I’ve always seated and crimped in one pull. You just have to adjust the seating die correctly and it works great.

Semi jacket bullets can not be "downloaded". Start at at least the " starting load". I go midway between starting and max for half or semi jacketed bullets.

The Lyman M-Die fixed the crooked rounds problem. The ID of the cases before was .349" and the M-Die enlarges it to .354" for the first 1/16" below the flare. This allows me to balance the bullets more straight up. The .349" could be due to an out-of-spec sizing die or thicker than normal case walls but the M-Die fixes that, whatever the cause. I'm still using the FCD to separate the seating from the crimping steps.

All rounds now fit in my revolver with the smallest chambers.

In hindsight, I wish I had bought Redding steel dies and the Redding competition seating die.

I'm still waiting for the Missouri bullets, so I loaded the XTP bullets behind 4.4 grains of HP-38, checking all rounds with a scale, and will test them tomorrow.

I ran into this same issue with Lee 9mm dies. I bought the Redding expander die to fix it. I keep forgetting to look for the M die which I found out about later.

I hope that (44grs) of HP 38 is a typo.

The carbide ring on the FCD is the reason you never use it on cast bullet loads. It swages the bullet smaller which leads to leading in the barrel. If it does not then you must have a tighter barrel spec than what is normal. If you follow any of the actual cast bullet forums it is not recommended by anyone. Powder coated bullets are less likely to have problems being under sized. They only need to be exactly bore and groove size. You don't need to be 0.001"-0.002" larger prevent leading.

Oops!

Okay, problems all solved. That 4.4 grs. of HP-38 shoots beautifully. When the lead bullets arrive, I'll load 4.2 grains for them.

Thanks for everyone's advice.