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Campfire Tracker
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Longer hunting bullets often do but sleek match bullets often need less throat simply because there is less full diameter bullet shank in front of the case mouth yet the sleek steeply tapered front of the bullet is long and takes up magazine space. I had these bullets out as samples when I was revising several dimensions for a new reamer a couple days ago. They are lined up where the boat tailed section becomes the full diameter shank section. A black marker indicates where the forward section of the full diameter shank starts it's transition to the ogive. The exact full diameter shank length is noted below...the boat tail length is not included, obviously. Top: Nosler 70 gr. BTip (.330 shank length) Ctr: Sierra 90 gr. Game Changer (.400 shank length) Btm: BIB 104 gr. (.450 shank length) Clearly, the throat lengths are going be much different (longer) for the longer bullets.
Forbidden Zoner
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Clearly, the throat lengths are going be much different (longer) for the longer bullets. If the magazine is the limiting factor then those bullet tips will be lining up and the black lines will be in different positions. It's a multivariable problem.
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Campfire Tracker
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[quote]If the magazine is the limiting factor then those bullet tips will be lining up and the black lines will be in different positions. It's a multivariable problem. Respectfully, mag length restrictions aren't what was questioned....it's throat length. From my post on 3-4: "If, on the other hand, mag. length is the dimension around which everything else has to work , then you make other compromises. Work the problem backward from that. Or do what it takes to correct the mag. length issue so you don't have to compromise on the throat." Good shootin' -Al
Forbidden Zoner
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Campfire Ranger
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I had a 7 twist AR-15 that did "overstabilize" at least one shorter 50gr bullet.
Could have been a flaw in the bore but I did not see any. And I guess that lot of bullets could have been messed up somehow.
But I did experience the bullets rapidly disassembling themselves and spraying shrapnel on my targets.
With 12 and 9 twists, never had issues.
I would prefer the fastest twist I can get that is still practical for whatever I am doing, of course. I have two 9 twist 223s now and no complaints. For a while the 9 twist seemed to dominate over the 12 twist. Now it's the 8 twist that seems to be dominating. I like the 8 twist myself but I have no heart burn with the 9. If it's a gun with a magazine like an AR, I could see where the 9 twist would shine with 62 grain bullets, maybe even some 69 grain bullets. The magazine limiting the length of the bullet and all. If I were the king and I could make everything to fit in my world I would eliminate the 12 twist and the slowest twist would be a 10. I'm not the king and that's probably a good thing. For those guys shooting the light weight go fasters, the 12 and 14 is right up their alley. Who am I to judge ?? It's a good thing there are plenty of choices. kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I'll throw this into the fray. I cannot vouch for its validity, just something I found and saved from the 'net
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Campfire Outfitter
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Top: Nosler 70 gr. BTip (.330 shank length) Ctr: Sierra 90 gr. Game Changer (.400 shank length) Btm: BIB 104 gr. (.450 shank length) Clearly, the throat lengths are going be much different (longer) for the longer bullets. Thanks for the visual, Al. As mathman mentioned, it’s a multivariable problem. What really matters is bullet body length, as you’ve described here, but bullet body length is a function not only of bullet weight and overall length, but also bullet shape. Some heavy VLD designs with long boat-tails and long ogives have very short body length, and consequently require short throats if the bottom of the bullet body is seated to the case neck/shoulder junction, assuming magazine length is not a constraint. My illustration above shows how some lighter, shorter bullets may require a longer throat than heavier, longer ones, but I think that’s really only the case with bullet weights that are somewhat similar. As both our images show, very light bullets generally have a shorter body length than much heavier ones, even with very different bullet designs. Bullet weight seems to be the dominant variable, and only if weight is similar do length and shape typically play a significant role in determining bullet body length.
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Campfire Member
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Back to the OP question- I have been shooting the same load of a 53gr HP Sierra flat base, same COAL, in various 223s with twist of 7,8,9, and 12" at 100yd only . Five shot groups. Overall, I'd say this particular load shoots about the same in all these barrels. I'm not seeing much difference even between the 7 and 12" barrels. The 9" twist barrel is a DPMS, and they (Luth) state this is the best all around if you are shooting the 55FMJ AND the 62gr 855/SS109 Greentip bullets. I think the 77gr Sierra is about the longest bullet that will still fit an AR magazine? But the 77gr requires the 8" twist?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I had a 7 twist AR-15 that did "overstabilize" at least one shorter 50gr bullet.
Could have been a flaw in the bore but I did not see any. And I guess that lot of bullets could have been messed up somehow.
But I did experience the bullets rapidly disassembling themselves and spraying shrapnel on my targets.
With 12 and 9 twists, never had issues.
I would prefer the fastest twist I can get that is still practical for whatever I am doing, of course. I have two 9 twist 223s now and no complaints. For a while the 9 twist seemed to dominate over the 12 twist. Now it's the 8 twist that seems to be dominating. I like the 8 twist myself but I have no heart burn with the 9. If it's a gun with a magazine like an AR, I could see where the 9 twist would shine with 62 grain bullets, maybe even some 69 grain bullets. The magazine limiting the length of the bullet and all. If I were the king and I could make everything to fit in my world I would eliminate the 12 twist and the slowest twist would be a 10. I'm not the king and that's probably a good thing. For those guys shooting the light weight go fasters, the 12 and 14 is right up their alley. Who am I to judge ?? It's a good thing there are plenty of choices. kwg Good post. I'd vote for you to be king.. ha ha.. I have 1 in 7", 1 in 8", and 1 in 9" twist barrels on my 223's and they all work very well. Nothing at all wrong with being able to run heavier bullets in the .223 remington. It just extends your optimal range over a slow twist and lighter bullet. Why guys don't see that or realize it and don't want to let go of old notions is beyond me. Here's one with a 1 in 9" barrel I got from one of my buddies: Here's the first 10 shot group I fired with it, to check to make sure it was going to shoot the 69's: Then the next 3 shots to check it at 400 yards: If you guys don't think that can kill a ground squirrel at 600 yards, you may just have some screws loose. And no, you don't need a special chamber for that bullet or load. It is loaded to fit in an AR15 magazine. That load also works great in the bolt actions I've tried it in.. Does it shoot like that all the time? No, not hardly, but most times it will keep them under 2" at 400..: I've also shot 50 and 53gr Vmax bullets out of it and it shoots sub moa. Not quite as well at 400 yards as the 69 smk, so the faster twist is what I prefer because it shoots the bullets I want to sling way out there much better than a slow twist barrel. The same can be said for my 1 in 8" twist 22-250. There is a reason most manufactures went to the faster twist barrels and some of these old guys need to just face up to the facts and quit trying to make excuses.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire Regular
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Have mentioned this before here and there, but Ruger made a run 1-8 twist .223 Americans some years ago. Around that time a guy (whose name I can't remember) made a mold that formed a plastic magazine extension for the standard RAR .223 magazine. Eventually Darrik Caraway, of Whittaker Guns in Kentucky, bought the mold, and sent me two of the extensions. It was pretty easy to fit one to the factory magazine, and rounds up to 2.5 inches long feed perfectly--which adds about 1/4" to the standard SAAMI OAL. I wasn't looking for more powder room (which wouldn't make a significant difference in velocity anyway) as much as more flexibility in seating longer bullets for finer accuracy. It works very well, and of course RARs are known for fine accuracy--though not good looks. Unfortunately, not long afterward the mold locked up, and as far as I know Darrik has never gotten it "unlocked." But I do have another of these extensions, just in case.... John; Good afternoon, I hope you and Eileen are well and you're getting a bit of a break in the cold as we are today - after the fresh snow this morning of course. Thanks for the photo of that Ruger American, it looks like it might be the same vintage as the one I picked up back when? I'd have to look to see when I got mine, but it was one of the first ones with the l:8 twist that came up here. It had a black stock when I got it and the fore end was the old style floopy type that needs to be really and truly hogged out - with a rasp as you wrote if I'm remembering correctly. I was able to connect with Darrik and obtain two of the magazine extensions as well, though mine aren't that color - they're a dark grey - but as you noted they do give options for sure. The chap who invented that extension is "cotis" here on the 'Fire who has a background in making fairly complex machinery if I'm not mistaken. Thanks again and all the best to you both. Dwayne Wow, old memories. Yep, that was me who made that machine. Darrik was so busy running the gun shop he never had time for me to train him on the tips and tricks I figured out on the machine and mold. That was 10 years ago I believe. With the vast improvements in 3D printing machines I would definitely go that route nowadays. When I calculated material cost of the $240k 3DSystems printer we had back then it came out to $33 a part just in material before labor to clean it up! It has come WAY down since then. We have a new 3D Systems printer just put in this year, what a PITA it has been. $300k machine, broken more than running. Seems like the tech is out every 2 or 3 weeks. Its only benefit is running large parts, things like 18” or longer. We have 3 different FormLabs tabletop 3D printers ($8 to $10k) along a wall at work, they run circles around that massive 3D Systems machine. Does Ruger even make those style magazines for the RAR anymore? Ones I have seen in photos show AR or AICS type mags hanging out the bottom now.
Welcome to TN - patron state of shootin’ stuff
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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cotis,
Thanks for the update!
I don't know if Ruger still makes that style of magazine, as I haven't gotten a new American since 2017--but am going to check out their website. (Edited to add I just did check their website, and Ruger does still make the American rotary-style magazine.)
Am down to two Americans, the 1-8 twist .223 where I installed your magazine extension, and a special-run 1-8 .22-250 from Whittaker, from 2017.
I never had as much trouble with the "rotary" magazines as some people had, and in fact the .223's magazine feeds perfectly. What I have noticed is tapered cartridges can sometimes cause trouble--which has happened with the .22-250.
John
Last edited by Mule Deer; 03/17/23.
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Got the itch for a .223. Things have changed since I last owned one ~15 years ago. There is a multitude of twists now available to stabilize heavier bullets. I am curious about stabilizing 50-55gr bullets in a 1:8 twist. Is 1:8 too much? Do fragile bullets come apart? or is all good and it opens up some options for heavier 60+gr bullets to shoot longer range? Or, just stick with the old 1:12 and forget the heavier bullets. FWIW: Long shots will be 5-600 yards, typical distances ~300. There might be a few very light, extremely fragile designs that will come apart in a 1:8 barrel, but most will be fine. And, the 1:8 gives you the ability to stabilize the higher BC bullets, should you want to maximize the .223’s long range capabilities. I would never buy a slow twist barrel in any cartridge capable of long range nowadays. Faster twist just gives you many more options. John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Campfire Ranger
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If, on the other hand, mag. length is the dimension around which everything else has to work, then you make other compromises. Work the problem backward from that. Or do what it takes to correct the mag. length issue so you don't have to compromise on the throat.
I've already gone further on this than I should have. Or will going forward. A smart guy once told me that after about 5 replies to any question here, things start circling the drain.....a pretty accurate observation.
-Al Great post, particularly about the need for compromise.............& the bigger the range of bullets to be used in a specifc scenario, the more the need for some level of compromise. Just as a general rule, in many rifles, not 224 caliber, I've often gotten best accuracy with a given bullet with twist that just consistently stabilizes a given bullet.. As for the 223 Rem , 1-8 works fine across the range of bullets that I use at the COAL's I need, well enough, but I don't shoot bullets <52 gr in those guns either. But if dedicating a rifle to bullets of 55gr & less, a 1-12" is a better choice. Everything is some level of compromise unless you are dedicating a given gun to a fairly narrow range of tasks. I think the 223 Rem is maybe a round that requires a little more compromise than some other to cover a really wide range of bullets, especially given the wide range of COAL needed by various guns. As for the OP's question about shooting 300 yds+, why bother with LW bullets (unless you have a gazillion) when the heavier bullets (60-77 gr) all do far, far better in the wind & kill little stuff just as well? If you have a gazillion LW bullets, then barrel a rifle dedicated to, & optimized, for them. JMHO. MM
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