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Same carry ammo I use in all my 9's and 45's.........they just work!


Frog---OUT!

You have shot any game animals with any handgun.

There is no real proof that the so called "Strasbourg test" ever happened

https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-75373.html

Well, there are always exceptions to every rule & every circumstance is not always the same.

But..................the gelation tests provide a "comparative" evaluation of various bullets in a consistent medium & absent anything better, is the most reliable info available.

It's all about consistency................if a bullet performs erratically in gelation, chances are high that it will behave erratically in real life situations as well..........across a broad range of circumstances.

Look at Federal Hydra-Shoks for example in either 9mm or 45...............not consistent at all compared to HST's or Golden Saber's.

If the performance is erratic in a consistent medium, do you think it's not going to be erratic in other conditions too?

And +/- an inch or so on penetration is not significant..............as long as it's enough & is consistent.

JMHO, YMMV

MM

Agree 💯 %

Precisely, and I'm not surprised that you're surprised.

Sweating every little detail in your load is a waste of time. Make a reasonable choice in your load, I like JHP's made by well established suppliers, and that's about all the thought I put into it anymore. If it feeds in my pistol, and it hits to point of aim, it will work if you do your part. If it doesn't work, it is so incredibly rare that its the fault of the bullet, its because you either didn't shoot enough, or you shot the wrong places. If all I have is ball ammo, I don't lose a minute of sleep.

Friend shot a deer with those bullets from a 38 Super. Hit hit it through the front lung and the second high through the rear lung. Both bullets exited.

I was surprised at how far it ran, 3-400 yards at least.

The bullets opened up, but that little doe didn't seem to care.

Sounds about right for a lung shot with a marginal cartridge.

Same with a rifle sometimes. No two are the same. I once saw a Blackbuck travel about 200 yards after being shot through both lungs with a 300 Ultra mag.
Easy animal to track because all you had to do was follow the lung chunks on the ground.

I'll never know how that animal was able to travel that distance with both lungs totally destroyed

Used to work in a big inner city trauma center...all I really learned was pistol bullets don't do much to highly motivated people. Dudes would come in shot several times in the torso and be just fine.

I mostly use Gold Dots and HSTs because I can get them in bulk for cheap, but use the Golden Sabers as well. As long as it feeds and POA=POI, I'm good with it.

That just demonstrates the value of anecdotal evidence. But yeah, I've see much the same thing in the field. How fast an animal drop is not a measure. Inspecting a wound channel, that's helpful. Which is why ballistics gel works so well as as test medium. Not perfect, but not much better out there as a soft tissue analogue. Water is actually not too far off, so while less of a test, its not an irrelevant test, just more "ideal world" than the real world.

Blaming a bullet won't help you after the fact. If the bullet fails, try another...or many more. I too am rather unimpressed with handguns against human targets. Of all the shooting calls I have run, it was a VERY small percentage who were shot with a handgun and actually incapacitated on scene. Most are wounded, some even critically or mortally; yet they all still have a good deal of fight in them.

I often shoot recently dead big game animals with various guns to test bullet performance. I used Golden Sabre and Cor-Bon solid copper hollow points from a Ruger LCP 380 on a doe antelope that had died just moments before. I lined the shots up from the furthest rear rib and angled them to encounter the off shoulder. Fired 2 of each. This is the closest to real world I know. One of each exited off shoulder and one of each stopped in the shoulder. Both recovered bullets expanded perfectly. However, and I don't know how I did it, I missed bones with every shot.

I used a golden saber in a 357 to take a small doe a couple years back. Bullet was a pass through and left nice 50 cent sized exit. Shot was 50 yards or so

There is no secret technology to make golden Sabre’s penetrate further and expand more given the same impact velocity.

Given the same velocity and approx weight retention and expansion - a 147 hst will penetrate 14.5-15.5” in gel.
If something penetrates more, it usually expands less and vice versa.
The challenge is reliable expansion especially through clothing and still keeping adequate penetration. Golden sabres aren’t any better than HST’s or gold dots. If they penetrate greater, it’s because they expand less, given the same impact velocity.

HST’s are what I used after my own testing and watching 347 YouTube bullet testing videos and reading a on pistol forum who is a trauma surgeon and has done studies for the LE.

It’s not the HST’s are better than golden sabres but they have a proven track record on the street like gold dots.
Shot placement with any of these is obviously key.

Where are all the Lehigh defense Xtreme defender fans?

90 grain mono with a screwdriver tip launched out of 9mm at 1450fps. Those penetrate too but I don’t think they are worth their crazy high cost. They are intriguing but I guess you could just use semi-wad cutters at a lower price.

jwp, I’ve been reading, and learning from, your posts here for long time and have come to understand your thinking that jacketed bullets don’t tend to impact with enough velocity to ensure reliable expansion. At least as applied to big bore handguns for big game.

Where I live self-defense usually means protection against grizzlies as I’m in their country pretty much any time I go into the woods. I always carry heavy hard cast bullets in my .44s and .45s.

In the rare cases I go into places where I’m more worried about people I carry a snub-nosed .357 mag with 140 grn XTP bullets. But I’ve been thinking about replacing them with 158 grn cast bullets. What are your thoughts (and everyone elses) on the use of cast bullets for self defense?

A hardcast flat point with a 75 to 78% meplat and proper nose shape will out penetrate any JHP and usually JFP bullets and leave a wound channel that looks like a JHP that expanded made

Do some wet pack penetration tests with 4 layers of denim over the front. It will be eye opening

You will get nice deep penetration that if pushed with a proper load will consistently reach vitals (provided you put it in the right place). You don't have to rely on expansion to do the work. It is one of the reasons why so many handgun hunters have used properly designed hard cast bullets for so long. They simply work.

Yep

That is why even in 9mm, I carry (my own loads) a 148 grain +P hard cast flat point. Deep penetration and does good when it hits intermediate objects.