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In my opinion and experience the +P 124 grains Bonded Golden Sabre is the best 9mm JHP on the market.

In 29% Ballistic gel the Golden Sabre Bonded penetrated 141/2" which will be about 24.216" in 10
% ballistic gel. Also expanded and penetrated better than this XPB +P 185 grain Barnes.

The Barnes penetrated 3/4" less and expanded less


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I used to carry them in .45/185 (Glock 21).

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Golden Sabre's are good; Fed HST's & Gold Dots are too...............not a lot of real difference.

I've carried HST's since they replaced the schitty Fed HydraShok's.

Same/same in 45 as well.

MM

Bullet Testing

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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Golden Sabre's are good; Fed HST's & Gold Dots are too...............not a lot of real difference.

I've carried HST's since they replaced the schitty Fed HydraShok's.

Same/same in 45 as well.

MM

Bullet Testing

I can tell you for a fact that the Golden Sabre penetrates much deeper than the Gold Dot


Haven't tested the others that you mentioned



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Been carrying them for a while in a few different calibers now. I got a really good buy on a case of them in 38sp “new old stock” Shop was remodeling and found that there was a void between the cabinets and the wall where stuff could fall and they couldn’t see. Lucky for me I was there with cash and got them for the at least 5 years old price he had stickered to the box.
Has anyone else handled recovered gold sabers from ballistic gel and noticed the mushroomed petals of the brass jacket have sharper edges than copper jacketed hollow points? I might be overthinking it, but I think that they would slice soft tissue better rather than pushing it aside as they penetrated causing more bleeding.

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Shot several whitetails with my 1911 45 ACP. Very very good results. I never saw the need to shop around for ACP ammo after I saw what it did.

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I tote the sig vcrown 124 and ft.scott tui's Golden Sabres are almost unfindable around here.


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I know a guy that was shot with a 40 cal Golden Sabre, it bounced around in his upper body but he survived. I was told the sheriff wouldn't let his deputies carry them after seeing the damage and the recovered bullet. You just never know but I quit carrying them.

I carry the HST's and Gold Dots now.
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Both of these were recovered in the third water jug, not ballistic gel but they work.

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Originally Posted by TWR
I know a guy that was shot with a 40 cal Golden Sabre, it bounced around in his upper body but he survived. I was told the sheriff wouldn't let his deputies carry them after seeing the damage and the recovered bullet. You just never know but I quit carrying them.

I carry the HST's and Gold Dots now.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Both of these were recovered in the third water jug, not ballistic gel but they work.


Bullets do not "bounce around inside"

Bullets do not always act the same in different calibers. Case in point. In 2008 I tested the 230 Gold Dot in 45 ACP +P shooting through 4 layers of denim and into wet pack. The bullet expanded to .870" diameter

I next shot a 158 grain Gold Dot 357 mag at a chronographed 1399 FPS and the bullet exited the media and 3" into the ground. The recovered bullet did nor expand at all. Infact the only way to tell it had been fired was from the rifling marks

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They all work, I don't sweat such details anymore. Back in the day when I did test each load, Golden Sabre's were very good performers, but so were several others. Coincidentally, my home defense handgun is currently loaded with Golden Sabre.

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Originally Posted by jwp475
In my opinion and experience the +P 124 grains Bonded Golden Sabre is the best 9mm JHP on the market.

In 29% Ballistic gel the Golden Sabre Bonded penetrated 141/2" which will be about 24.216" in 10
% ballistic gel. Also expanded and penetrated better than this XPB +P 185 grain Barnes.

The Barnes penetrated 3/4" less and expanded less


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I’ve shot deer with xtp, gold dot, and HST in 124 9mm not a golden saber.

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Bullets do not "bounce around inside"

This instance, this bullet did. I saw the scars and got the details firsthand.

I believe it was Clint Smith that said “if there was a magical bullet that performed perfectly in every situation, everyone would be using it.”

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Originally Posted by TWR
Bullets do not "bounce around inside"

This instance, this bullet did. I saw the scars and got the details firsthand.

I believe it was Clint Smith that said “if there was a magical bullet that performed perfectly in every situation, everyone would be using it.”

If Clint did say that, he would be wrong. Reading posts and personal accounts, just on this forum, significantly prove otherwise...


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Can a bullet bounce...yes. Is it likely, no...especially something like a 9mm. But anything is possible.

I have actually treated a patient who was shot at contact range in the head with a .32 ACP, and the bullet went in and out the the same hole; that's a bounce. Bullets can clearly be deflected by a bone. As for "bounce", well I'd have to see what someone is calling a "bounce". I think its likely what Clint meant was deflect, and “bounce” is just a poor choice of words. Something you’d say in a very non-technical, anecdotal conversation while holding a beer.

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Bounce was the word I used when deflected would've been the proper term I guess but every bone it hit, it changed direction and made the rounds around his chest and stomach.

Point is, your favorite bullet sucks, don't get too hung up on water jugs or ballistic gel testing. Hit em where they need hit as many times as you can and hope they don't deflect, bounce, ricochet or whatever you want to call it.

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Years ago when one shot stop percentages were still being used, 45ACP hydra shok 230gr was running 96%. Golden saber matched its street results. Likely a big reason for its success was the FBI HRT adopting the golden saber load. I never see it on dealer shelves, gold dot and hydra shok are usually what I find and carry.

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Originally Posted by TWR
Point is, your favorite bullet sucks, don't get too hung up on water jugs or ballistic gel testing. Hit em where they need hit as many times as you can and hope they don't deflect, bounce, ricochet or whatever you want to call it.
I disagree...

The bullet doesn't suck that's for sure. It has always been a very solid performer in scientific tests. I'll take ballistic gel tests over someone's anecdotal story every day of the week; I don't care who's telling the story. Anecdotal data is worthless.

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Originally Posted by Firecontrolman
Years ago when one shot stop percentages were still being used, 45ACP hydra shok 230gr was running 96%. Golden saber matched its street results. Likely a big reason for its success was the FBI HRT adopting the golden saber load. I never see it on dealer shelves, gold dot and hydra shok are usually what I find and carry.
That "one shot stop" stuff was a complete fantasy using a VERY flawed criteria...there's a reason it went away and the FBI's testing protocol remained.

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Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by TWR
Point is, your favorite bullet sucks, don't get too hung up on water jugs or ballistic gel testing. Hit em where they need hit as many times as you can and hope they don't deflect, bounce, ricochet or whatever you want to call it.
I disagree...

The bullet doesn't suck that's for sure. It has always been a very solid performer in scientific tests. I'll take ballistic gel tests over someone's anecdotal story every day of the week; I don't care who's telling the story. Anecdotal data is worthless.
So you put more faith in gel tests than someone that was actually shot by one. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

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Strasberg goats tests? Probably why they use gel these days.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Golden Sabre's are good; Fed HST's & Gold Dots are too...............not a lot of real difference.

I've carried HST's since they replaced the schitty Fed HydraShok's.

Same/same in 45 as well.

MM

Bullet Testing


Same carry ammo I use in all my 9's and 45's.........they just work!


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Originally Posted by TWR
Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by TWR
Point is, your favorite bullet sucks, don't get too hung up on water jugs or ballistic gel testing. Hit em where they need hit as many times as you can and hope they don't deflect, bounce, ricochet or whatever you want to call it.
I disagree...

The bullet doesn't suck that's for sure. It has always been a very solid performer in scientific tests. I'll take ballistic gel tests over someone's anecdotal story every day of the week; I don't care who's telling the story. Anecdotal data is worthless.
So you put more faith in gel tests than someone that was actually shot by one. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.


You have shot any game animals with any handgun.

There is no real proof that the so called "Strasbourg test" ever happened



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Originally Posted by TWR
Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by TWR
Point is, your favorite bullet sucks, don't get too hung up on water jugs or ballistic gel testing. Hit em where they need hit as many times as you can and hope they don't deflect, bounce, ricochet or whatever you want to call it.
I disagree...

The bullet doesn't suck that's for sure. It has always been a very solid performer in scientific tests. I'll take ballistic gel tests over someone's anecdotal story every day of the week; I don't care who's telling the story. Anecdotal data is worthless.
So you put more faith in gel tests than someone that was actually shot by one. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.


https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-75373.html



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Well, there are always exceptions to every rule & every circumstance is not always the same.

But..................the gelation tests provide a "comparative" evaluation of various bullets in a consistent medium & absent anything better, is the most reliable info available.

It's all about consistency................if a bullet performs erratically in gelation, chances are high that it will behave erratically in real life situations as well..........across a broad range of circumstances.

Look at Federal Hydra-Shoks for example in either 9mm or 45...............not consistent at all compared to HST's or Golden Saber's.

If the performance is erratic in a consistent medium, do you think it's not going to be erratic in other conditions too?

And +/- an inch or so on penetration is not significant..............as long as it's enough & is consistent.

JMHO, YMMV

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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Well, there are always exceptions to every rule & every circumstance is not always the same.

But..................the gelation tests provide a "comparative" evaluation of various bullets in a consistent medium & absent anything better, is the most reliable info available.

It's all about consistency................if a bullet performs erratically in gelation, chances are high that it will behave erratically in real life situations as well..........across a broad range of circumstances.

Look at Federal Hydra-Shoks for example in either 9mm or 45...............not consistent at all compared to HST's or Golden Saber's.

If the performance is erratic in a consistent medium, do you think it's not going to be erratic in other conditions too?

And +/- an inch or so on penetration is not significant..............as long as it's enough & is consistent.

JMHO, YMMV

MM


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Originally Posted by TWR
Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by TWR
Point is, your favorite bullet sucks, don't get too hung up on water jugs or ballistic gel testing. Hit em where they need hit as many times as you can and hope they don't deflect, bounce, ricochet or whatever you want to call it.
I disagree...

The bullet doesn't suck that's for sure. It has always been a very solid performer in scientific tests. I'll take ballistic gel tests over someone's anecdotal story every day of the week; I don't care who's telling the story. Anecdotal data is worthless.
So you put more faith in gel tests than someone that was actually shot by one. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
Precisely, and I'm not surprised that you're surprised.

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Sweating every little detail in your load is a waste of time. Make a reasonable choice in your load, I like JHP's made by well established suppliers, and that's about all the thought I put into it anymore. If it feeds in my pistol, and it hits to point of aim, it will work if you do your part. If it doesn't work, it is so incredibly rare that its the fault of the bullet, its because you either didn't shoot enough, or you shot the wrong places. If all I have is ball ammo, I don't lose a minute of sleep.

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Friend shot a deer with those bullets from a 38 Super. Hit hit it through the front lung and the second high through the rear lung. Both bullets exited.

I was surprised at how far it ran, 3-400 yards at least.

The bullets opened up, but that little doe didn't seem to care.

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Originally Posted by HawkI
Friend shot a deer with those bullets from a 38 Super. Hit hit it through the front lung and the second high through the rear lung. Both bullets exited.

I was surprised at how far it ran, 3-400 yards at least.

The bullets opened up, but that little doe didn't seem to care.
Sounds about right for a lung shot with a marginal cartridge.

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Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by HawkI
Friend shot a deer with those bullets from a 38 Super. Hit hit it through the front lung and the second high through the rear lung. Both bullets exited.

I was surprised at how far it ran, 3-400 yards at least.

The bullets opened up, but that little doe didn't seem to care.
Sounds about right for a lung shot with a marginal cartridge.

Same with a rifle sometimes. No two are the same. I once saw a Blackbuck travel about 200 yards after being shot through both lungs with a 300 Ultra mag.
Easy animal to track because all you had to do was follow the lung chunks on the ground.

I'll never know how that animal was able to travel that distance with both lungs totally destroyed



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Used to work in a big inner city trauma center...all I really learned was pistol bullets don't do much to highly motivated people. Dudes would come in shot several times in the torso and be just fine.

I mostly use Gold Dots and HSTs because I can get them in bulk for cheap, but use the Golden Sabers as well. As long as it feeds and POA=POI, I'm good with it.

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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by HawkI
Friend shot a deer with those bullets from a 38 Super. Hit hit it through the front lung and the second high through the rear lung. Both bullets exited.

I was surprised at how far it ran, 3-400 yards at least.

The bullets opened up, but that little doe didn't seem to care.
Sounds about right for a lung shot with a marginal cartridge.

Same with a rifle sometimes. No two are the same. I once saw a Blackbuck travel about 200 yards after being shot through both lungs with a 300 Ultra mag.
Easy animal to track because all you had to do was follow the lung chunks on the ground.

I'll never know how that animal was able to travel that distance with both lungs totally destroyed
That just demonstrates the value of anecdotal evidence. But yeah, I've see much the same thing in the field. How fast an animal drop is not a measure. Inspecting a wound channel, that's helpful. Which is why ballistics gel works so well as as test medium. Not perfect, but not much better out there as a soft tissue analogue. Water is actually not too far off, so while less of a test, its not an irrelevant test, just more "ideal world" than the real world.

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Originally Posted by TX35W
Used to work in a big inner city trauma center...all I really learned was pistol bullets don't do much to highly motivated people. Dudes would come in shot several times in the torso and be just fine.

I mostly use Gold Dots and HSTs because I can get them in bulk for cheap, but use the Golden Sabers as well. As long as it feeds and POA=POI, I'm good with it.
Blaming a bullet won't help you after the fact. If the bullet fails, try another...or many more. I too am rather unimpressed with handguns against human targets. Of all the shooting calls I have run, it was a VERY small percentage who were shot with a handgun and actually incapacitated on scene. Most are wounded, some even critically or mortally; yet they all still have a good deal of fight in them.

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I often shoot recently dead big game animals with various guns to test bullet performance. I used Golden Sabre and Cor-Bon solid copper hollow points from a Ruger LCP 380 on a doe antelope that had died just moments before. I lined the shots up from the furthest rear rib and angled them to encounter the off shoulder. Fired 2 of each. This is the closest to real world I know. One of each exited off shoulder and one of each stopped in the shoulder. Both recovered bullets expanded perfectly. However, and I don't know how I did it, I missed bones with every shot.

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I used a golden saber in a 357 to take a small doe a couple years back. Bullet was a pass through and left nice 50 cent sized exit. Shot was 50 yards or so


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There is no secret technology to make golden Sabre’s penetrate further and expand more given the same impact velocity.

Given the same velocity and approx weight retention and expansion - a 147 hst will penetrate 14.5-15.5” in gel.
If something penetrates more, it usually expands less and vice versa.
The challenge is reliable expansion especially through clothing and still keeping adequate penetration. Golden sabres aren’t any better than HST’s or gold dots. If they penetrate greater, it’s because they expand less, given the same impact velocity.

HST’s are what I used after my own testing and watching 347 YouTube bullet testing videos and reading a on pistol forum who is a trauma surgeon and has done studies for the LE.

It’s not the HST’s are better than golden sabres but they have a proven track record on the street like gold dots.
Shot placement with any of these is obviously key.

Where are all the Lehigh defense Xtreme defender fans?

90 grain mono with a screwdriver tip launched out of 9mm at 1450fps. Those penetrate too but I don’t think they are worth their crazy high cost. They are intriguing but I guess you could just use semi-wad cutters at a lower price.

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jwp, I’ve been reading, and learning from, your posts here for long time and have come to understand your thinking that jacketed bullets don’t tend to impact with enough velocity to ensure reliable expansion. At least as applied to big bore handguns for big game.

Where I live self-defense usually means protection against grizzlies as I’m in their country pretty much any time I go into the woods. I always carry heavy hard cast bullets in my .44s and .45s.

In the rare cases I go into places where I’m more worried about people I carry a snub-nosed .357 mag with 140 grn XTP bullets. But I’ve been thinking about replacing them with 158 grn cast bullets. What are your thoughts (and everyone elses) on the use of cast bullets for self defense?

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Originally Posted by McInnis
jwp, I’ve been reading, and learning from, your posts here for long time and have come to understand your thinking that jacketed bullets don’t tend to impact with enough velocity to ensure reliable expansion. At least as applied to big bore handguns for big game.

Where I live self-defense usually means protection against grizzlies as I’m in their country pretty much any time I go into the woods. I always carry heavy hard cast bullets in my .44s and .45s.

In the rare cases I go into places where I’m more worried about people I carry a snub-nosed .357 mag with 140 grn XTP bullets. But I’ve been thinking about replacing them with 158 grn cast bullets. What are your thoughts (and everyone elses) on the use of cast bullets for self defense?

A hardcast flat point with a 75 to 78% meplat and proper nose shape will out penetrate any JHP and usually JFP bullets and leave a wound channel that looks like a JHP that expanded made

Do some wet pack penetration tests with 4 layers of denim over the front. It will be eye opening



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Originally Posted by McInnis
jwp, I’ve been reading, and learning from, your posts here for long time and have come to understand your thinking that jacketed bullets don’t tend to impact with enough velocity to ensure reliable expansion. At least as applied to big bore handguns for big game.

Where I live self-defense usually means protection against grizzlies as I’m in their country pretty much any time I go into the woods. I always carry heavy hard cast bullets in my .44s and .45s.

In the rare cases I go into places where I’m more worried about people I carry a snub-nosed .357 mag with 140 grn XTP bullets. But I’ve been thinking about replacing them with 158 grn cast bullets. What are your thoughts (and everyone elses) on the use of cast bullets for self defense?

You will get nice deep penetration that if pushed with a proper load will consistently reach vitals (provided you put it in the right place). You don't have to rely on expansion to do the work. It is one of the reasons why so many handgun hunters have used properly designed hard cast bullets for so long. They simply work.


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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by McInnis
jwp, I’ve been reading, and learning from, your posts here for long time and have come to understand your thinking that jacketed bullets don’t tend to impact with enough velocity to ensure reliable expansion. At least as applied to big bore handguns for big game.

Where I live self-defense usually means protection against grizzlies as I’m in their country pretty much any time I go into the woods. I always carry heavy hard cast bullets in my .44s and .45s.

In the rare cases I go into places where I’m more worried about people I carry a snub-nosed .357 mag with 140 grn XTP bullets. But I’ve been thinking about replacing them with 158 grn cast bullets. What are your thoughts (and everyone elses) on the use of cast bullets for self defense?

A hardcast flat point with a 75 to 78% meplat and proper nose shape will out penetrate any JHP and usually JFP bullets and leave a wound channel that looks like a JHP that ecpands made

Do some wet pack penetration tests with 4 layers of denim over the front. It will be eye opening

Yep

That is why even in 9mm, I carry (my own loads) a 148 grain +P hard cast flat point. Deep penetration and does good when it hits intermediate objects.

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I think our "problem" is we're trying to use static repeatable testing on dynamic problems. One of my mentors toted Hornady 225 grain flat points out of his 1911 because you could "flip a Charlie inside 50 yards" and yes I used the word Charlie instead of what Pete actually called them. I would really like to tote a Lcp in .380 but I KNOW I shoot a compact midsized 9mm better. I'm sure somebody will say I've been out in the sun too long.


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A hardcast flat point with a 75 to 78% meplat and proper nose shape will out penetrate any JHP and usually JFP bullets and leave a wound channel that looks like a JHP that ecpands made

Would you say you don’t see any advantage of even these Golden Saber bullets to hard casts?

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Originally Posted by McInnis
Quote
A hardcast flat point with a 75 to 78% meplat and proper nose shape will out penetrate any JHP and usually JFP bullets and leave a wound channel that looks like a JHP that ecpands made

Would you say you don’t see any advantage of even these Golden Saber bullets to hard casts?

It depends on what you need or want the bullet to do. Revolvers have the advantage over semi autos in that they don't have feeding issues and can have larger meplats.

Mackay_Sagebrush's 147 grain flat point hardcast definitely penetrates much more and leaves decent wound channels, judging by the 1 hog that I killed with them.
But there are situations that less penetration is desired. Definitely a place for both, IMHO



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