Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors My new 1899

Been asked to post some back history on the 1899A i acquired. So here goes
I came across this rifle on accident almost 3 years ago. I was purchasing another engraved 99 from this gentlemen (99 DE in 243) and he said he had a couple others at his home. He said he would go get one i would like and showed me this!! Wow!!
He let me take a few pictures of it but i never thought in a million years i would be able to pry it from his hands. Fast forward a year and i stopped in to ask him again if he was willing to part with it. HE SAID YES!! I almost passed out and asked him a price but he said he will let me know soon, soooo i started selling and flipping some things because i am not a rich man by any means and had to start saving.
A few months went by and i was working down the road from his store and figured i would stop in and see what else he had on the racks. I wasnt going to ask him again about it but he just happened to be there so i figured now is my time to let him know where im at and see where he is at. He said he loved my passion for his old rifle and knows it will be well taken care of and gave me a price that is no where near what this gun is worth. I never hesitated and shook his hand!
The rifle is a special order 1899A take down that letters from the Cody museum as so. The letter states it was sent back to Savage for a work order in 1936 but doesnt say for what. When i picked the rifle up i spoke with the owner for a while about its history and without me saying anything he mentioned the previous owners name and said it was sent back to Savage to have the barrel shortened because it was too heavy to hunt with. It now has a 22” barrel instead of a 26”.
I am still in awe that this rifle is now in my collection.
Joe Bonifant is going to post some pics in the comments for me because my pics wont do the rifle justice. Have a good weekend everyone. 🍻

I wish, I wish, I wish it were mine.

Thank You Joe!!

You could have charged me for the honor and I would have paid up!

Good lord, what a rifle!

OMG!

You can be proud of that one!

Sweet rifle, Joe. I am tremendously happy for you.

Congratulations. A work of art in wood and steel.

Damn, that’s beautiful

Do you consider that a hunter or display rifle?
Hah!
Very nice.

Congrats! About as good as it gets.

Hunting i doubt it but it will get shot. They all do! 😁

Very nice!

So, now you have four things to add to your bucket list - use that rifle to shoot: a buffalo, a tiger, a moose, and an elk.

Wow Joe, just Wow, Congrads

Outstanding Joe, good for you. Guns like that are good for one’s soul.
An awful lot of good stuff going on with that gun. Love the whole thing, but the high condition, carved stocks, stippling, vignettes and fleurs on the bolt are all very special. Definitely one of the nicest Special Order 1899’s extant.

Joe, you might as well quit now. It doesn't get better than that. Wow wow wow. Very very happy you for you Joe!

Oh my word...

Congrats Joe! That is a beauty. Glad it will be shot-they're supposed to be.

LHS

WOW, what a magnificent rifle, congratulations on the acquisition.
Sent back to the factory in 36, what is the original manufacture date?

Eric

Now i know why you werent at the Harrisburg show yesterday!! Gorgeous!

Im truely speechless !!!!! one of a kind rifle there !

That's a beauty. I wish you had gotten it sooner, I could have included it in the engraving book.
I think Spittler did all of the engraving. It's really good but the engraving doesn't look like Tue's work.

In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost Joe, that thing is amazing!

What a gorgeous and unique 99, with high condition to boot!

I think the hunt to find, patience in pursuit, length of time anticipating, and the potential ups and downs of a negotiation (especially when it ends up working out for you) all add in to make a gun like this that much more appealing… not to say if you found it on a gun store rack and just paid the price - it wouldn’t be just as remarkable to possess!

Congratulations, that is a rifle most would/should consider the paramount of a collection. Savage AND otherwise!

Sahweeeeet!

WOW!

Not sure on that David. Im thinking it is done by Tue.

Simply amazing! You may all screetch but I would hunt with that rifle.

Gratification and endorsements don't come much better than that!!

Congratulations Joe! You just upped the ante for coming to Noxen!

Hard to find words. A work of art.

I would shoot it but not hunt it.

Congrats.

Beautiful

Wow!!!! That is the find of a lifetime and a good lesson in perseverance! What a beauty!!! Breathtaking!!!!!

T.S.

The curlie-cues are different than Tues'. The animals look somewhat different, the moose is a lot different than the one on the bottom of Dave Trauth's D engraved. There is sort of a heart shaped thing on the right side of the receiver between the lion and the forearm. There are several places where there is a flattened triangle, two of them are on the metal at the rear of the TD forearm. The engraving on the receiver ring is different than anything Tue has done that I know of.

Another example of an employee special rifle belonged to William E. King who carved Savage stocks from about 1900 to 1910. King also was an engraver. The engraving on his rifle looks somewhat different than Tues' also. This rifle is pictured on page 226 of the "engraving book".

I respect your opinion David. This is way beyond my knowledge on engravings and value everyones input. This is a once in a lifetime purchase for me and im very happy with all the comments from the great collectors we have here!

Joe

that jewel would be cradled in my arms when they shoveled dirt in my face. mainly because they couldn't pry it out of my hands!
if that gun was the only gun in my collection, i would be satisfied.
awesome!

Agreed

What kind of special order? Ledger can specify abbreviations for pistol grip, engraved, etc.
What is the serial number?
Did the rifle come with documentation?
Do you have a factory letter?

I have the serial lookup from Cody specifying the t/d, pistol grip, fancy wood, etc.

Engraved?

Doesnt mention engraved but that has been proven here already that not all ledgers state engraving or checkering.

Understood.

Wow!! Beautiful piece of art. Congrats to you Joe. Maybe it’ll make the trip to Noxen this year???🤞
Congrats once again.

Thanks. It will be there for sure!!

You may have to put a stack of bibs at your table to keep people from drooling all over it. 🤤🤤🤤
Can’t wait to see it.

Thanks, I've studied many engraved 1899's in the last few years and can see subtle things about the engraving that make me sure it's not Tue.
It's a really cool unique rifle. I've wanted a D engraved 1899 for years and have never been able to afford one when they came up for sale.

Absolutely stunning Joe - congratulations on a truly beautiful piece of Americana!! Thank you for sharing!!

PennDog

From the John Spittler thread...
Since the letter info per Joe includes "t/d, pistol grip, fancy wood", but not engraving I would tend to agree that it was engraved afterwards.
Comparing the engraving against 2 similar engraved rifles in David's book and one can see subtle differences. Particularly in the layout of the E scenes and some detail areas.
Tue was a master of duplication and stylistic differences aside, his layouts were spot on from rifle to rifle.
This rifle has a similar feel to me as does the King rifle which was recorded as shipped to W.I. King. The King rifle too causes debate as to whether or not King engraved it as his family claims or if another(s) were involved.
The moose on this rifle looks eerily similar to the King rifle was was made 2-3 years earlier.
Interesting rifle and as previously said, one of a kind.

I'm with David and Rick on this one. I think it is very interesting that it is based off of Tue's D pattern and possible engraved by a Savage employee that I hadn't heard of. Wonder if there are others out there? I would love to own it.

Tue, King, Spittler, Rentschke ...all in the Savage family. I have an 1899-C, .32-40, PG, thick SG plate, fancy walnut (very dark and heavy) that was sold to W.I.King but was never engraved or carved. I have to close my eyes and visualize what might have been.

Just gorgeous Joe, very pleased for you. One of a kind.

Thank You everyone for your input. I am content with the fact it was more than likely engraved by Spittler and think its even more intriguing being that way. This was a very special purchase for me and i think i did very well on it. This is one that will never leave my collection and who knows maybe i will find another. He does have one more 😉.
Now, who did the checkering??? 😁
Cheers fellas 🍻

Beautiful Rifle!
Thanks for Sharing.

HS 58

In a short while you have been able to gather quite a bit of relevant information about this rifle, a.k.a. provenance. Be sure to document the findings. Will it add value? Probably. Is it an interesting Savage story? Absolutely.

p.s. Probably checked by the same feller.

That is beauty. Congratulations. Maybe lightning can strike twice!

If you risk taking off the stocks and butt plate there may be info. there too. Real nice!

Quite possible, but it lettered as checkered from the factory. So if he did it, he did it at work. Probably picked out the stock, buttplate, everything himself.

How do you know that it was factory checkered? No mention of it here. ??

The letter didnt specify the checkering either Rory, Rick.

The stock is also carved

My bad, I thought it had lettered with the checkering.

One of the other interesting things about this rifle, the King rifle and any other rifle that was ordered by an employee and finished thereafter is that a finished receiver would need to be totally disassembled, finish removed and then engrave hardened steel.
If I understand the normal production process, the engraver would get unfinished receivers with "soft" steel making engraving easier than hardened steel.
Engraving of a finished rifle can all be done, but with extra effort.

Not sure about the checking. Can checking be done over a finished stock/fore? I suppose it matters whether the finish was oil or gloss finish.

OK. I HAVE to ask. With the vast knowledge base here, has anyone ever heard of this guy, Spittler?

What I understand he was a foreman of the stock shop and a master engraver himself.

Just to be clear. What I maybe should have asked was, had anyone knew of him before Joe's rifle.

Standard protocol is to checker after finishing, no matter if an oil finish or a barrier finish.

Stephen, there’s a very informative article on the Iroquois Arms Collectors website about the Newton Rifle that indicated a group of 5 or 6 Savage Arms employees travelled ‘up the Canal’ from Utica to Buffalo in 1916 to work at The Newton Rifle Co.
The article indicates that John Spittler was foreman of the stock making department and principal engraver at Newton until his return to Savage. There is a portion of this aforementioned article in the John Spittler Savage Arms thread that Joe Brady started here several days ago.
I know very little about Savage Arms history , but I came across John Spittlers name and his association with the Savage Arms Co, while looking for info on an engraved Newton Rifle 4 or 5 years ago.

From the overall photo the checkering looks like grade C. Maybe he engraved it on his own time before the rifle was blued.
But I have seen several rifles where additional factory engraving was added later and the bluing doesn't look touched up. For example my F engraved rifle. It was at the factory for 5 years before it was shipped to the owner whose name was engraved on the bottom of the receiver. I doubt if he ordered it in 1901 and it didn't get shipped until 1906. Therefore his name was probably engraved on the rifle about 1906. But then again maybe it was engraved in 1906. However, it is matching #'s with high grade wood, C checkering and pistol grip. It was probably all done at once. But then "With Savage Never Say Never".

Thanks Ted. I appreciate it.

It was probably finished say 1902 and whoever ordered it died.

That was at Newton Arms. And I'm not sure about the "master engraver".. haven't seen a source for that. Engraver, yes. Not sure what makes an engraver a "master engraver"?

I found that a John Spitler was registered as a Savage Arms toolmaker in 1918. We all know how those toolmakers are.

I'd feel a lot better with more and definitive information on both Spittler and King regarding their engraving.
Not too many generations removed from King's work, his family is adamant that King engraved what is known as the King rifle. That is believable.
Spittler is brand new to me and Joe's research indicates the rifle was shipped to him and that he had connections to Newton, Savage, stock making and engraving. That's believable too.
"The information is out there, just let it in."
The thirst for knowledge continues....

Are there enough examples out there to rule out it being done by Gough or Rentschke?

Rentzschke was ~1955-60.
Gough came to Savage from Fox ~1930. Is known to have contracted earlier. Gough was kind of high brow and generally selected the most ornate jobs that challenged him.
This rifle was born in 1909.
Dates don't seem to match.

Ok. Says it was sent back to Savage in 36 but the story i got was for a shorter barrel. Was the job recorded for that or to be engraved?? At this point im really not concerned about it. Thanks.

Well this rifle seems to certainly qualify in regards to being an ornate job. And we know the rifle went back to the factory in 36

So....

Why not?

Excellent point Randy, a shoemaker certainly didn’t carve and checker the stock and engrave Joe’s gun.
“With Savage Never Say Never”

We've seen a few other rifles that Gough seems to have engraved that were in the B, C, etc engraving styles.

Gough engraving on those rifles definitely did NOT look like Enoch Tue's versions.

This being a Gough engraved gun was one of my initial guesses, even before he got the letter saying there was a work order for the 30's.

But if Stippler engraved for Newton.. still possible it was Gough, but I'd lean towards a guess that it was his own work.

That’s why I asked if anyone had ever seen a confirmed factory engraved Newton Rifle. There is one example of a factory engraved Newton Rifle on the NRA Museum website and the engraving while nice doesn’t approach the quality of the engraving on Joe’s rifle. Just saying that if Spittler engraved the Newton Rifle in the NRA Museum he couldn’t have engraved Joe’s rifle.
Another salient point is that an awful lot of Gough’s engraving is executed over stippling.

You did mention Gough Rory before i even bought it but with the back story i just dismissed it.

I think you are on the right track.
You've got some pretty good information already.
Obviously questions remain.
If/when other information, proof, theories come available, explore them and maybe the picture will become more clear. Takes time.
If it's any consolation, I think the King rifle sold last time for ~$49k. Granted, King is known as carver for Savage and Winchester. And the King rifle is carved. But it does have debatable engraving too.

Joe, I believe that beautiful shooting iron deserved to serve its purpose and be hunted at least once. Back in 2014, I took my 1899-B (lettered Aug of 1899) and filled my tag. People at work said I was crazy to hunt a 115 year old rifle. When it fulfilled its destiny, it went back in the safe looking exactly as it looked prior to the hunt. It's a gratifying feeling to add another chapter in the story of a 115 year old fine shootin iron. Just my 2 cents.

Often times proof is elusive.
But let's go with Gough for a moment in '36.
Spittler rec'd a rifle in 1909 with pistol grip, T/D and fancy wood.
27 years later the owner decides to send it back to Savage for engraving and checking? Which goes against "the story" from the seller.
I honestly would be surprised if the E engrave pattern survived within Savage until '36. The vast majority of Tue's work was done before 1917 and that pattern would have existed then. Of course, a person could pull the pattern from an existing E engraved rifle and proceed.
A person can connect whatever dots they wish. The above scenario seems unlikely at this point.

That moose looks just like the King rifle moose to my eye. Maybe that is a clue. King a Spittler appear to have overlapped in time with Savage. King ~1900-1910. Maybe the same person engraved both of them? 1906 &1909? William Henry Tue immigrated in 1909 and worked at Savage as an engraver. Hmmmm....

Spittler wasnt the owner in 36. A Ray Harvey from Utica NY is the one who had the work done and the guy i bought it from said he bought it from the Harvey family.

Welp, if you haven’t already I’d go back and shake the Harvey tree some more and see what what falls out.

Somebody or somebodies knew the exact story of this gun but sadly the exact story is most likely gone to the grave with those people and lost to history at this point. Every time the gun changes hands over the years the trail grows colder and colder. 1909 was 114 years ago and 1936 was 87 years ago. Who engraved and did the woodwork? It would be interesting to know but at the end of the day does it really matter now?

Now it just is what it is.

Beautiful....

Sure, if you are a curious person with interest in Savage Arms history and its many tentacles. Figuring out puzzles like this is "the buzz".
Without it, West, Carr, Stern, Brower, Murray, Royal & Reynoldson Savage books would not exist. Or many of the interesting posts on this forum. This thread included.
Tedious research is not for everyone. Some do it, some read it, hopefully all enjoy it.

The scrolls don't look like any of the 99K's I've seen. I think Spittler did the engraving at the time the rifle was produced. The outer rings on some of the Spittler rifle aren't a smooth circle. They bulge a little. The engraving on the K's vary quite a bit, probably because Gough had a number of engravers working for him and the K's were done by several different people but after looking at photos of quite a few K's I don't the Spittler rifle was done by any of them.
No matter who did the engraving it's a neat rifle.

Are there any known guns with engraving that can be positively attributed to Spittler?
It’s all just speculation without a known example to compare Joe’s gun to.

not that I know of. It just doesn't look like any other Savage engraver

What do you "speculate"?
We'll add it to the pile and try to sort it out.

Did anyone take the time to look at the engraved Newton Rifle on the NRA Museum website that MIGHT (just speculating here, but please add to the pile) have been engraved by Splitter?

The Newton is mostly rounded surfaces and less engraving overall compared to a flat sided 99. It does have a moose on the trigger guard. ?? Requires more study. Thanks.

Newton engraved rifle

There are stylistic differences among others, but, that looks like the same moose pattern.
Spittler 1909 - left
King 1906 - right
Does it mean anything? Possibly...

How many King Engraved guns have been seen ???

Same moose pattern to me as well, you’re definitely on to something

Only aware of 70152 as claimed King engraved. And some believe Tue had a hand in on it.

For King carved we have these;
11536
13559
30687
31078
33302
44813
45264
46434
70152
123343
132268
133730
184078
Those below 100000 are likely King carved as he moved to Oregon ~1910.
Those above 100000 not sure.
There are likely more....

How many Savages did he own ??

King owned 70132, the 1899C/32-40 in Kansas, plus whatever you have and probably others we are unaware of.
It appears from ledgers that rifles were shipped to King an employee. He is known to have carved rifles for show for Savage & Winchester, himself and potentially others.