Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters A Close-in Deer Rifle

Well hell, Mule Deer, "Irons are faster" has been one of the foundational postulates of my personal Loonyism for so long I'd call you out as a heretic if I hadn't recently read a pile of your books. You are vastly more experienced than me and your writing and opinions have all the hallmarks of truth and sincerity and are based on systematic analysis of actual experience. But, that means those couple of missed opportunities in my youth that I blamed on scope magnification biased my opinion and tainted my orthodoxy for all these years! And, worse - might have (can't quite admit this yet) caused some painfully recent missed opportunities. Well, I'm in the middle of acquiring my first new big game rifle in 20 years and I'm actually considering a 3 - 9 variable for it which, if you knew me, would give you an appreciation for your influence on my ideas! (One thing that comes out in your books and RLN that I didn't get when I only read your magazine pieces is that you can be very funny and the other is that you really enjoy being a heretic.)

I've killed dozens of running deer with both iron sights and scopes and a scope is definitely faster. Hunted many years with a large group doing deer drives. I once killed three deer running full out with 3 shots, boom, boom, boom, just that fast with a Remington 760 .30-06 wearing a Weaver K-1.5 scope with post and crosshair reticle. They were only about 25 yards away and crossing at 90 degrees to my position. At close range in the woods, a low power scope is best. You can get away with more magnification in the open when there's nothing between you and your game and/or on going away shots but for crossing shots with trees/obstacles at various distances between you and the game, less magnification is better. To this day my dedicated close cover rifles wear 1-4X or 2-7X scopes and I sure wouldn't want more than 3x on the low end.

1eyedmule,

Well, thanks, I guess!

One thing I "discovered" when first starting to write for gun magazines a few decades ago was that there was some money to be made by actually testing some long-time "accepted" stuff--which had been accepted because so many previous gun writers had repeated it over and over.

One was how slow scopes were compared to iron sights. This was pretty much true with early scopes, because they usually had very narrow fields of view, due to their small-diameter rear (ocular) lenses--which are essentially the "viewing screen." Of course, this was also because so many early scopes had 3/4" or 7/8" tubes. This is why early 6x and even 4x scopes were considered too much for close-range shooting--especially quick shooting on running animals.

But that changed as scopes grew larger. The field-of-view in 4x and 6x scopes increased to about the same as older 2-3x scopes. Which is one reason I eventually started using 6x fixed scopes. (The other reason was they often held up better than "affordable" variables of the same era--and didn't change POI when changing magnification, like many of those variables.)

But one early experience was enough to help me along in my "research." I killed my first deer at 13, with my father's .30-30--a Marlin 336 carbine that was then also marketed by Montgomery Ward (anybody remember them?) under their their Western Field label. My dad had pretty bad eyesight, partly due to being type-1 diabetic since age 11--and his .30-30 also had a 4x "Western Field" scope, made in Japan, probably by Light Optical Works.

Anyway, during the last week of the firearms season I ended up still-hunting (or "stalking," depending on the part of the country you're from) through the thick ponderosa pines and Rocky Mountain junipers on a low ridge. A big doe mule deer doe stood up from her bed at close range, when I raised the .30-30 the scope's field of view was enough to tell the rifle was aimed at the neck/shoulder area. When I pulled the trigger the deer dropped right there--at about 40 feet, not yards.

The first deer for me was running by full speed from other hunters. I shot it with a scoped Deerfield carbine. The old tube fed ones scoped up nicely. Obviously big magnification wasn't an issue for that rifle. I could see the deer clearly in the scope. I was inexperienced, but possessed the reflexes and luck of youth.

The whole time I hunted elk with a center-fire. My variable was carried on 3X.. I never increased it for a shot, but all my shots were less than 75 yards.

My Dad got a big cow one year so close. He said he poked the barrel through some branches and shot looking over the barrel of his scoped rifle. Got her in the neck. Not sure if irons would have helped there.

When I was first stationed in Northern Va, I quickly got into a club that hunted deer with hounds. Shotgun only. Well, since I came from a northern state that used to have to use slug guns I happened to have a 11-87 with a slug barrel and a 1.5x5 Leupold on it. The hunt master was an old Marine as well and said give it a try but when you start missing deer you’ll need to start using buckshot like the rest. For 3 years I hit everything put past me, some was probably [bleep] as luck but some were solid shots I knew I was going to score with. After those 3 years he said “Scotty, would you mind using buckshot anyhow since the other members think you have an advantage with that scoped gun”.. I obliged cause by that time I had the money to get another gun but it wasn’t cause that old slug gun wasn’t effective. I spent a lot of time on the range during those years of work with carbines and handguns so shooting wasn’t a huge hurdle back then. It was a pile of fun though. Never thought I’d enjoy the dog driven deer hunts as much as I did and they have a cool history themselves as houndsman.

The "heretic" comment was a compliment - It is a service to those of us who don't have your experience that you are honest about what you have found.

Being over here on the wrong side of the Mississippi, you were "still-hunting." That's a great pic and great story to go with it. Maybe if I had been able to find those deer in my Bushnell Scope Chief turned up to 4.5x I'd have given scopes more of a chance for close hunting. The first deer I shot after reading Larry Benoit's book and buying a peep sighted 7600 carbine was the buck I'm most proud of. I shot him at a bit under 10 yards when both of us were on the ground and moving after tracking him up a mountain. I used to flatter myself that not many dudes could have pulled that off. But, I'm old enough to know that conditions were perfect and a good deal of luck was on my side. This experience was life changing (sounds over-the-top but it was) and after that the peep sighted 06 was the best deer rifle man ever devised and I would not hear anything different.

Well done! And that's a great buck.

I am also not so inflexible that I don't hunt with iron sights. Have used them plenty, both in North America and Africa, and they're very effective--especially in better light.

And they do have advantages: Did a totally iron-sight safari in Botswana 20 years ago, taking five animals out to 220 yards--and one of the great things was I didn't have to worry if the scope was "off" due to bouncing around in a Toyota Land Cruiser, and hence not having to "check-shoot" the rifles every couple days.

Also continue to hunt with iron sights at least some every year, whether for small game, varmints or big game--these days thanks in part to the miracle of cataract surgery!

Thanks!

Have you ever played with the square beads referenced on this thread? These guys have me very curious and I'll be trying to make one up pretty soon to try out. What kind of front sight(s) did you use on the safari?

I try to get my rigs scoped with quick release rings.

Low power illumination scopes 4 me please.

Heavy snow can slow a low power scope….especially straight tube….they fill right up.

Iron sights……

I like a heavy post in front or white bead…..

Rear sight I like a white diamond…..

Peep it if u can…

Some times it’s easy…..especially 99s…

Been thinking hard about adding a red dot that mounts on the front base where the scope would.

Carbine….

I think 4 me bolt actions get snagged up in my Fanny pack, spare clothes tied around my waist.
Etc. I am right handed but shoulder carbine on left side.

Working up a 308 mx this year Marlin 336 SC with safety of course.

I like marlins because they are easy to get glove loops made 4 them.

Love the thread and the pics. Great deer guns. Another good read is Larry Koller "shots at whitetails" (1948). Great reading and thoughts on rifles from the old days. Neal

Have played with square beads, round beads, totally square posts of different colors, including fiber-optic, etc.

The big thing I've found is you need to be able to see the damn bead--and it needs to provide a consistent aiming point. A typical "gold" or "silver" round bead tends to result in a pinpoint of light off-center of the bead, due to light reflection. So I use a small, fine file to flatten the face of the bead at about a 45-degree angle away from my eye. This not only eliminates the pinpoint of light, but results in a soft, consistent "glow" which allows finer aiming. A flat-topped sight also provides the same sort of aiming point--the reason most are also slanted away from the shooter.

Fiber-optic beads provide a very definite aiming point, but have also found they can be more fragile than metal beads.

But will also note that among the longest shots I've made with irons were a red lechwe in Botswana, shot at over 200 yards with a Ruger No. 1 .375 H&H with an NECG rear aperture, and a bull caribou at 350 yards with a pre-'64 Model 70 .270 and a Lyman 48 rear. The front sights on both were the factory "gold" bead, filed as described.

Might also note that there's an entire chapter on all this, "Iron Sights in the 21st Century," with far more detail, in Obsessions of a Rifle Loony--which some people think is my most entertaining and basically informative of all my books.

Ever notice how the aperture sight fan club is mostly old guys? I can sure relate to that, having hit 73 last month. Had my Lee-Enfield #4 Mk 1 in the deer rifle rotation last fall. Nice rear aperture with a flat top front sight. Woods I hunt won't even give you a glimpse of a deer past 100 yds. Had it out a couple times but no shots were offered. Front sights on M-1's and M-1A's used to get some of that "sight black" when I shot NRA High Power back in the 1990's early 2000's. The rear apertures on them are great, IMHO. Haven't seen sight black in years, it was wonderful for that reflection and glare stuff.

Yep, it's often us "old guys"!

The issue rear and fronts sights on the 1903-A3 ain't bad either....

Good info. I've got to do some thinking. Enjoying this thread. All you guys sharing your experience with front sights - many thanks! My next box from Riflesandrecipes.com will include Obsessions of a Rifle Loony.

My main rifle for hunting since Gretdog built it in 2010 is a single Shot, falling block Ruger of which I have complete faith in when it comes to shots at less than 15 yards .
I have QD mounts on the low powered variable Leupold , and have express sights as well, but the Leuplod has accounted for several fast , close shots in the last few years.
Cat

There's no better quick handling stalking type gun than a lever gun with a low power scope, holo sight or iron sight.

All this talk about iron sights takes me back a long time to my first buck at age 13. I had a borrowed m64 Winchester .30 WCF (.30-30) with the standard buck horn rear and what ever blade was out front. A VERY accommodating fork horn buck fed his way broadside out about 75 yards. Our deer camp guys back in those days would have hung me by the thumbs if I had shot a doe. Knowing that I strained to see antlers above those ears and in the cold weather, my eyes watered, so I couldn’t even see those sights let alone antlers. Minutes passed, I took off my hat and gloves and steadied that 64 over a branch. I’m pretty sure that I saw antlers, yep, those must be antlers, not that I’d seen that many at that age. Relief when he tipped over like a rabbit at the shot and yes, antlers!!! Scopes and magnification have worked better ever since.

And some antler restrictions can be pretty detailed. Sometimes sex and species ID can be too important to chance.

50 yards:

It is interesting to read the etiquette of different areas.
Here we are overrun with does and spikes. Everyone is encouraged to take one of each. The six point is unusual as it seems the youth hunts keep the numbers down.

It was pointed out that “Old Men” were advocating iron sight. May be true on this thread but there are a lot of young people shooting iron sights. For quite a few years hunters out here have been chasing Allyn Tedman’s “Small Deer” (Jackrabbits) with iron sight lever action rifles. The .357 Magnum is arguably the most popular cartridge, but the discussions get warm over cartridge, make and model of rifle and sights.
With iron sights, not every shot is a hit.
I remember Dave Scovill writing of hunting called coyotes with his .25-35 short rifle. The action was close, fast, and fun.

Have anyone noticed you can aim at a close-in deer with an iron sight rifle and it is not alarmed. Raise a scope sight rifle to your shoulder and the Big Eye seems to get their attention. Just something, I have noticed in the yard.
Here is another picture from the ’61 Gun Digest.