24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,027
C
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
C
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,027
Not too long ago, saw a post by a member who says he significantly improved the accuracy of his 22lr rifle by using CCI SV that had been sorted by weight - the implication being that variations in individual bullet weight affect group size when using this ammo, and that occasional /lighter heavier than spec bullets can produce the odd flier in the group that seems to be common using CCI SV.

Has anyone done this? When weighing each round, what variations in weight have you found to be acceptable?


All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing -- Edmund Burke
BP-B2

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,675
G
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,675
A waste of time, I can shoot 50 shots into one ragged hole @ 50 yards. But if weighing ammo floats your boat, carry on !

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,966
L
Campfire Regular
Online Content
Campfire Regular
L
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,966
Some years ago, I bought a Neil Jones gauge - it measures base thickness. Sorting the very cheap, junk bulk ammo showed a slight accuracy improvement over unsorted ammo, but it was still very tedious work and not worth the effort. Buy better ammo to begin with. CCI SV is pretty good ammo for the price. I'd really doubt any benefit to weighing ammo. You'd have to weigh a lot of it and fire many groups with an incredibly accurate rifle to come up with a credible conclusion. Any accuracy advanatge would probably be insignificant.

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,894
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,894
I had a rifle go to hell a few years ago and started shooting like a shotgun.

I had just bought 2 boxes of Remington golden ammo in the 500 +- .

They were so bad when i got home i checked the rifle/scope and they were fine.

Didn't have much going that day so i brought my scales to the house and sorted them.

I had 3 weights light,normal and heavy.

The next day i shot them sorted into weights and the rifle and ammo went back to shooting tight groups like before.

Don't know what their problem was at that plant but they were screwed up.

I have not done it since but it was eye opening for sure.

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 406
7
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
7
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 406
Is it the bullet or the casing that's giving you the variance in weight? This needs to be taken into account when weighing.

IC B2

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,529
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,529
Everyone is entitled to their notions. Mine is that you might benefit more from learning to read and compensate for wind than trying to squeeze a little more accuracy out of bargain ammo, at least when it comes to hitting what you shoot at. That knowledge would be of benefit with whatever you shoot. For my part, I’m currently trying to become a better shot. As long as my ammunition is accurate enough to hit what I want to hit, it’s good enough, and spares me all the anguish over uncalled flyers that comes with endless bench work. If I miss, I just assume it was me and have at it again.

About 25 years ago I helped my son with a science project in which we sorted the late, great Winchester silver-box PPs by weight, then fired groups with the sorted ammo through his 77/22 Varmint model. No benefit was demonstrated.


What fresh Hell is this?
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,727
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,727
Originally Posted by plainsman456
I had a rifle go to hell a few years ago and started shooting like a shotgun.

I had just bought 2 boxes of Remington golden ammo in the 500 +- .

They were so bad when i got home i checked the rifle/scope and they were fine.

Didn't have much going that day so i brought my scales to the house and sorted them.

I had 3 weights light,normal and heavy.

The next day i shot them sorted into weights and the rifle and ammo went back to shooting tight groups like before.

Don't know what their problem was at that plant but they were screwed up.

I have not done it since but it was eye opening for sure.

That is remington ammo and it is garbage. Most guys know, or should know that. The op was asking about CCI SV, I believe. The effort of sorting that ammo is wasted, as it's generally pretty good for standard/non match grade ammo. Now, if shooting competitions, some guys will sort by rim thickness, but that is because that affects headspace. Nothing more, nothing less. Buy decent ammo and shoot it through a good rifle and you shouldn't need to weight sort your ammo. We've all seen crap ammo that isn't good for much except for plinking at cans, but CCI SV is a little better than that. Picking/sorting the good from the bad may be a crap shoot at best.


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,935
D
djb Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
D
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,935
There is no way to even tell what the deviation you are weighing. Erratic velocity is going to cause the biggest issue in group size, but the is no way to know if you are sorting by powder charges, priming compound, bullet weight, or a thick case. Basically buy better ammo if better consistency is needed.


The truth angers those whom it does not convince
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,675
G
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,675
Anther idea that is primarily between the shooters ears rather than in the ammo's characteristics whether it be weight or rim thickness. In an out of the box rifle the difference seen for the effort expended will be insignificant.

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,557
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,557
Originally Posted by djb
There is no way to even tell what the deviation you are weighing. Erratic velocity is going to cause the biggest issue in group size, but the is no way to know if you are sorting by powder charges, priming compound, bullet weight, or a thick case. Basically buy better ammo if better consistency is needed.

This. This is Science 101. When conducting a simple experiment, you test only one variable at a time, while holding all others constant. Can't do this with an intact cartridge. As a proportion of the overall weight, the bullet is the heaviest component. A certain variation in the bullet weight will have less effect than the same variation in the powder. This can't be determined by weighing an entire cartridge. OTOH, weighing and comparing batches of cartridges could determine which has the least variation which might affect relative accuracy.

All of that said, the greatest variation is going to be the shooter and the wind. What to do? Study and improve your technique. Buy the best ammo you can afford and learn to read the wind, preferably with good wind flags. Keep good notes.

Have fun.

Added: As a RSO, I can't begin to relate how often I have watched shooters "testing" high end equipment: rifles, scopes, ammo while employing poor technique or shooting from a less than stable rest and/or shaky bench.


Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
IC B3

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,540
E
EdM Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
E
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,540
Ditto on choosing better ammo. All just 5 shot groups with SK here and none shot bad at 50 yards from my 10-22.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Conduct is the best proof of character.
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,954
B
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
B
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,954
I agree with buying better ammo to get better groups from a .22 rimfire. CCI SV is pretty decent mid priced ammo. Moving up to something like SK Standard Plus might improve your groups without a huge price increase, but of course each rifle is somewhat unique so you have to try different types of quality .22 ammo to find out what shoots the best.

BTW, EdM must have a really nice 10/22, probably with an aftermarket barrel. The groups with SK Rifle Match and Biathalon Sport are very good!

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,027
C
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
C
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,027
The recommendation to "buy better ammo" is well understood. I actually have Lapua Center-X, SK standard and Norma Tac-22 on hand, in addition to more common, (and cheaper) types of Aguila, CCI, Federal Automatch and "trash" Remington Thunderbolt.

What interested me was that CCI SV has a pretty good reputation as the best of the "cheap" ammo available - except for, in my internet searching, occasional fliers that are probably a consequence of less quality control that is an inevitable companion to lower price.

But put that together with reading a Campfire member's experience with higher accuracy by matching weights, and I just thought it would be an interesting experiment to grab a brick of CCI, spend an hour or two one afternoon watching "Mitty" on DVD while doing some weighing and matching, then run them through my CZ 457 and see how it all comes out.

Last edited by czech1022; 04/02/23.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing -- Edmund Burke
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
You might be able to eliminate flyers by shooting the lightest 20% together as one batch and the heaviest 20% together as another batch. In theory, the ones at the lightest end could have more than one component that was lighter than typical, and similar for the heaviest at the other end. As others have mentioned, with multiple components, one component could be lighter and another heavier for a given cartridge, and you can't distinguish between those in a completed cartridge.

If you decide to do your experiment with a brick, I would split them into 5% groups by weight (25 cartridges in each group) for the lightest and heaviest 20% of the brick (lightest 5% in one group, next lightest 5% in another group, etc), and shoot 5 groups of 5 OR split them into groups of 10 if you want to shoot 10-shot groups. You probably need to shoot on a calm morning or indoors to be able to distinguish legitimate differences. I wouldn't be surprised if the groups for the extreme ends of cartridge weights were at least a little better than the average groups for that brick.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Online Content
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
I have run a bunch of experiments with various methods of "measuring" and sorting .22 Long Rifle ammo over the years, including weighing, measuring the rim thickness, etc.

The only thing that's made a consistent difference was setting up wind flags and paying attention to them, even on "calm" days.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,529
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,529
Probably not much point in buying better ammo if you don’t address the wind.


What fresh Hell is this?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Online Content
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Yep!

Or learn how to adjust/compensate for parallax in a scope at 50 yards....


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,990
G
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,990
Wind, mirage, coffee shakes, and muscle aches: factors on the practical shooting side of the equation that separate the men from the boys. I think what a lot of guys who addressed this thread were doing was thinking in purely theoretical terms. We humans at our shooting benches are hard pressed to emulate a machine rest in a test chamber 50-100 yards long, wherein lies the only plausible way to settle the arguments surrounding weight and rim thickness sorting. I feel these activities have merit, but can't prove or disprove that feeling since I have no access to laboratory test facilities.

Speaking to the practical applications of sorting, I doubt there's any except for a top notch competitor who's looking to shave a couple thousandth's off of group size to claim 1st place instead of 2nd or 3rd - and he's got you and me beat right out of the gate anyway because he's a past master of wind reading.

Sort of in the same vein: how many take the trouble to do chamber casts of their .22 rimfires, to determine throat diameter/length, leade angles, etc. which to a large extent are what makes a rifle "like" certain brands/lots of ammo. We assign a lot of mystery to the "liking thing", when in truth there's a lot of measurable features that determine it.


"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,894
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,894
It was what was in hand at the time.

It worked.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Online Content
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
There's also a difference between the .22 Long Rifle "sporting" and "match" chambers.

The match chamber throats are considerably shorter, essentially designed so the "full diameter" portion of the bullet engraves itself into the throat, where there can be a little "freebore" in the sporting chamber with typical.22 LR ammunition.

Somewhere around here I have a gauge that measures this difference, and over the years found that many (ir not most) very accurate "sporting" .22 rifles have shorter throats....


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
730 members (12344mag, 10Glocks, 10gaugemag, 16penny, 007FJ, 1234, 66 invisible), 2,960 guests, and 1,230 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,763
Posts18,401,397
Members73,822
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.104s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.9006 MB (Peak: 1.0563 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-29 14:51:33 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS