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Shaman...
Here is a picture of Francis Sell’s .358 Winchester Husquvarna after Herter’s restocked it. This little article is titles: Summer Work for Winter Guns. Guns Magazine August 1961.
Francis Sell was not a man to be limited to one gun.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Seems like a silly question. Close in almost anything will do as long it's not long as a pool cue.

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There are some who will argue a Model 94 Rifle of 26" with full length magazine can be very quick for offhand shooting.


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Originally Posted by Blackheart
At 7 yards with 6x you're badly out of focus and your field of view is about 14 inches. Smaller than the rib cage of a middlin sized deer. At 1x you are well in focus and your field of view is about 6 feet. Big enough to encompass the full body length of a big deer and then some. It's easy to find yourself within 7 yards of deer in heavy cover. I've killed several at that and closer over the years. In fact, I've been that close and still not able to shoot because all I could see was feet/lower legs under the young spruce. My hunting partner had that same situation just last season. Within feet for several minutes and never saw anything but feet. Tempted to guess the location of chest and send one through the branches but did not and the deer eventually blew out straight away without offering a shot. Something to keep in mind when selecting a scope for close cover hunting.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, once killed a running wild boar at about 10 yards with a variable set on 6x. That's obviously not 7 yards--but yes, the focus was fuzzy. But the field was big enough that I could see where the should was--and the reticle was in focus. Plus, the pig was so close I could easily point the rifle at the "correct" end of the animal. At the shot the pig immediately dropped, its snout catching the ground, resulting in the pig lying dead facing the opposite direction from when it was running. The bullet had broken both shoulders and the spine.

Now, would I have chosen 6x for making the shot? No, but there were extenuating circumstances--and it worked. Which you apparently will never be able to comprehend how--or even try to.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by Blackheart
At 7 yards with 6x you're badly out of focus and your field of view is about 14 inches. Smaller than the rib cage of a middlin sized deer. At 1x you are well in focus and your field of view is about 6 feet. Big enough to encompass the full body length of a big deer and then some. It's easy to find yourself within 7 yards of deer in heavy cover. I've killed several at that and closer over the years. In fact, I've been that close and still not able to shoot because all I could see was feet/lower legs under the young spruce. My hunting partner had that same situation just last season. Within feet for several minutes and never saw anything but feet. Tempted to guess the location of chest and send one through the branches but did not and the deer eventually blew out straight away without offering a shot. Something to keep in mind when selecting a scope for close cover hunting.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, once killed a running wild boar at about 10 yards with a variable set on 6x. That's obviously not 7 yards--but yes, the focus was fuzzy. But the field was big enough that I could see where the should was--and the reticle was in focus. Plus, the pig was so close I could easily point the rifle at the "correct" end of the animal. At the shot the pig immediately dropped, its snout catching the ground, resulting in the pig lying dead facing the opposite direction from when it was running. The bullet had broken both shoulders and the spine.

Now, would I have chosen 6x for making the shot? No, but there were extenuating circumstances--and it worked. Which you apparently will never be able to comprehend how--or even try to.
I know it can be done. I'm sure most folks who've done much hunting have killed game at close range that was out of focus in their scope, including me. I've had fixed 6x scopes on several rifles over the years starting back in the 80's. I've used them for deer hunting and found them to be less than ideal for use in heavy cover. I would not recommend to anyone to put on a still hunting/tracking rifle today. A 6x scope is simply not a top choice or even a good one for such use. Neither would I recommend a variable with more than 3x on the bottom end for such hunting in mixed heavy cover and open terrain. You might have found it a bit more challenging picking out and hitting the shoulder of an out of focus 10 yard pig with a maze of out of focus conifer boughs between you and it. I know from experience anybody would be better off with fewer X's in that scenario. That's simply a fact and whether you or anyone else could make 6x work doesn't change it.

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The best carrying rifle I've ever owned was a Rossi 92 in .44 Magnum. Nothing handier on this earth, I think. Even handier and lighter than a M94, even. It even holds more ammo than the 94, and at "woods ranges", a .44 Magnum is plenty effective on whitetails. Check one out, if you can find one close, and see what you think.

Handy, light, effective, and fun to pack around.


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Originally Posted by william_iorg
Shaman...
Here is a picture of Francis Sell’s .358 Winchester Husquvarna after Herter’s restocked it. This little article is titles: Summer Work for Winter Guns. Guns Magazine August 1961.
Francis Sell was not a man to be limited to one gun.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

This Sell character is talking my language now: buying his stock with a high comb so he can whittle it down himself until it puts his eye right behind that peep. The peep sighted close range gun with a stock fit like this is really something. However, I've never then removed the rear sight and shot groups to check the fit! That's next level loonyism right there. Of course, I'll have to try it this summer - with the new square bead I'll be fabricating - after I find that old junk piano... You guys are making a hobby out of finding me projects!


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I took my first deer, an eight point buck, at 20 yards with a Ruger .44 semi-auto scoped with a 1 3/4x Redfield. 240 gr JHP IIRC. The buck was standing facing me and the between the eyes shot flipped him over backwards and he landed facing away.

That was a very handy rig but it was at best a 4 MOA rifle at 100 yards. It was succeeded by a Ruger 77/44 with a 1x4x Leupold that held smaller 100 yd groups. A 120 yard lung shot with 240 gr JHP did not leave an exit hole and the buck ran about 80 yards before dropping. Current close range rig is an Encore .260 S&W Magnum with a ?20" Katahdin barrel and 1x4 scope. A bit more accurate, more hp than the .44, and shorter than a reciprocating bolt gun with a comparable barrel. The challenge is finding monolithic or magnum rated JHP bullets for hand loading.

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I grew up hunting deer where, if you didn't get one by stand hunting within the opening morning, the rest of the season was done in drives. Shots were usually at a buck sneaking through the thickest crap up close or in an all out run past you. We also hunted black bear by driving or still hunting through the mountain laurel. Close shots at moving game were the rule. Some of our favorite rifles were Rem 600-660's. Model Sevens were nice and short, but I didn't like their butt-heavy balance. I have a definite preference for low power variables. 1.75x6, 2x7 to 2.5x8 at the most.
People on here have sung the praises of 6x scopes for years and I've set my scope on 6 many times to see how it would be for up close work. There's no way I'd pick it for this type of hunting. Can it be done? Sure, but it's going to bite you in the ass at some point.

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Spoken like a true Pa hunter. However, as Mule Deer said the reticule will still be in focus. And a Deer shoulder will still show as a shoulder and not a big spot of brown.

If in the moment, one thinks they have to see distinct hairs….they don’t, but if they do….then 6x isn’t for them. But FOV isn’t the issue.

Shooting with both eyes open, also makes it much easier.

Another issue is when the adrenaline is on the rise…. And it concentrates focus. It changes what you think you can see and do.
I’ve shot 4 close with 6x. Nothing was…. or seemed….out of focus and where the dot or x rested wasn’t a guess.

Last edited by battue; 04/01/23.

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I always shoot with both eyes open. That's nothing new. I'd guess in MD's scenario, he made shot more because he's a wing shooter and it was more instinctive pointing than it was using the scope reticle. Anyway, there's certainly more than one way to skin a cat and if it works for you, have at it. Pennsylvania hunters are looked down on pretty good on this forum, so I'm sure my opinion is worth dog schit anyway.

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I’ve never had any issue here with being a Pa hunter.


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Over the years I have killed more than a few Mule Deer and Whitetails, with many different guns, but have never used a Shotgun of any kind for deer hunting, and have never lived where a shotgun was required, interesting thread. Rio7

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Originally Posted by battue
I’ve never had any issue here with being a Pa hunter.

It's subtle, but I catch it often enough to notice.

Anyway, it doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Teeder
I always shoot with both eyes open. That's nothing new. I'd guess in MD's scenario, he made shot more because he's a wing shooter and it was more instinctive pointing than it was using the scope reticle. Anyway, there's certainly more than one way to skin a cat and if it works for you, have at it. Pennsylvania hunters are looked down on pretty good on this forum, so I'm sure my opinion is worth dog schit anyway.

I think being a wingshooter sure might have something to do with it, because I do tend to shoot with both eyes open. (I also got a LOT of practice shooting running game with a rifle when young, due to hunting jackrabbits a lot during winter.)


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Arguably the best post WWII article on Snapshooting was written by Francis Sell for a 1959 issue of Guns Magazine. The article: Snapshooting and Snapshooting Rifles defines Snapshooting well, giving sound advice.
The key descriptions are on the right side. This article must have frustrated Francis Sell as the word trigger is inadvertently used where the word hammer should have been used. I would imagine every writer has an article like this.
If MD were not such a slacker and got himself all retired that way he could have written a modern interpretation of Snapshooting and we could have chewed on it for awhile.
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I've had a lot of practice missing jack rabbits in the grasslands. Those things are fast :-)

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by Teeder
I always shoot with both eyes open. That's nothing new. I'd guess in MD's scenario, he made shot more because he's a wing shooter and it was more instinctive pointing than it was using the scope reticle. Anyway, there's certainly more than one way to skin a cat and if it works for you, have at it. Pennsylvania hunters are looked down on pretty good on this forum, so I'm sure my opinion is worth dog schit anyway.

I think being a wingshooter sure might have something to do with it, because I do tend to shoot with both eyes open. (I also got a LOT of practice shooting running game with a rifle when young, due to hunting jackrabbits a lot during winter.)

I bet that's alot of fun!

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When I was hunting in Minnesota during firearms season many years ago I had a 12 ga mossburg bolt action with a scope.

Minnesota firearms season is during the rut, so the bucks can behave rather brazen.

I was sneaking around and crept up on a beautiful small eight point or six point basket whitetail buck. We were both in thick brush. And we were both surprised , but the buck seemed curious.

It was point blank. I filled the scope with hair and shot. I am unsure what scope it was now that I think about it.

After the recoil it was still there.

I picked a slightly different spot and shot….after the recoil the deer was gone…..I saw it bouncing off.

No blood, no deer ……. It was early afternoon, so I searched for hours the neighbor and his dog even helped a little…….I must have missed?

The next day I went back and found two broken branches next to each other. These broken branches were between where I stood and the deer was when I shot. Shotgun cases are easy to spot.

I think if I would have picked identical aim points the second shot wouldn’t have been deflected.

And without a scope; perhaps I would have been able to pick a clearer aim point .

Last edited by Angus1895; 04/01/23.

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Originally Posted by william_iorg
Arguably the best post WWII article on Snapshooting was written by Francis Sell for a 1959 issue of Guns Magazine. The article: Snapshooting and Snapshooting Rifles defines Snapshooting well, giving sound advice.
The key descriptions are on the right side. This article must have frustrated Francis Sell as the word trigger is inadvertently used where the word hammer should have been used. I would imagine every writer has an article like this.
If MD were not such a slacker and got himself all retired that way he could have written a modern interpretation of Snapshooting and we could have chewed on it for awhile.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Okay, I'm gonna have to get some of this man's writings. He's carrying his rifle the same way I do much of the time and is describing what I do. This is what comes to mind for me when I hear guys talk about never using a sling on a rifle while still-hunting. The only thing missing is mention of using electrical tape on the muzzle.

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