A friend gave me around 60 new, unfired RP 257 Roberts cases. They are probably at least 25 years old. Since +P 257 Rob cases are kind of expensive these days, I was planning on using these standard velocity cases in my Kimber Montana. Are the standard cases made from thinner brass, so I should I work up standard velocity loads for them? Or... is it just that the head stamp is different to prevent someone from inadvertently shooting +P loads in a vintage rifle?
A friend gave me around 60 new, unfired RP 257 Roberts cases. They are probably at least 25 years old. Since +P 257 Rob cases are kind of expensive these days, I was planning on using these standard velocity cases in my Kimber Montana. Are the standard cases made from thinner brass, so I should I work up standard velocity loads for them? Or... is it just that the head stamp is different to prevent someone from inadvertently shooting +P loads in a vintage rifle?
The .257 Roberts was never factory loaded to pressures as high as, say, the .270 Winchester--which has a standard SAAMI Average Pressure (MAP ) of 65,000 PSI--as high as SAAMI allows for any cartridge. Even the +P ammo is only loaded to a 58,000 PSI MAP--which is less than the .30-06's 60,000, and the .30-06 had been chambered in at least as many actions (and old rifles) unsuitable for higher pressures as the .257.
In other words, it's always been something of a mystery why the .257 was "underloaded," and still is. I don't know of any "vintage" .257 rifle that wouldn't easily withstand higher than +P pressures.
While some +P .257 has been thicker than standard .257 brass, this also has no practical bearing on how much pressure the brass can stand. Your Kimber Montana can safely use handloads developing 65,000 PSI, just like any modern .270, with either kind of brass.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
The OP can also look to 6mm Remington data for guidance. With like bullet weights and styles, like propellants and barrel lengths, the 257 is capable of more velocity at the same pressure.
For example, Hodgdon shows the 6mm producing over 3100 fps with 100 grain Speer boat tails and both IMR and H 4350. The listed 257 Roberts data (same style bullet, barrel length and powders) can then be used as a starting point in conjunction with a chronograph and the heat can be turned up.
I appreciate this thread. My previous 257’s have been on Mauser 98 actions. I now have a 700 Classic 257 that looks like and may be new condition. I’m thinking that Mathman’s answer is the guide I’ll likely use. I was also wondering about brass thickness, thanks MD. In a perfect world, some one would have tested 65,000 PSI loads in multiple cartridges. If for nothing more than seeing what the top was. I don’t NEED to go that high in a 257, having 25-06’s on hand. But it would be nice to know. I have a new to me, a very nice Mauser 98 8x57 sporter. I’m not too interested in 30-40 level loads. I think that it might be possible to approach 30-06 velocities in same weight bullets???
Last edited by Bugger; 04/11/23.
I prefer classic. Semper Fi I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
A friend gave me around 60 new, unfired RP 257 Roberts cases. They are probably at least 25 years old. Since +P 257 Rob cases are kind of expensive these days, I was planning on using these standard velocity cases in my Kimber Montana. Are the standard cases made from thinner brass, so I should I work up standard velocity loads for them? Or... is it just that the head stamp is different to prevent someone from inadvertently shooting +P loads in a vintage rifle?
The .257 Roberts was never factory loaded to pressures as high as, say, the .270 Winchester--which has a standard SAAMI Average Pressure (MAP ) of 65,000 PSI--as high as SAAMI allows for any cartridge. Even the +P ammo is only loaded to a 58,000 PSI MAP--which is less than the .30-06's 60,000, and the .30-06 had been chambered in at least as many actions (and old rifles) unsuitable for higher pressures as the .257.
In other words, it's always been something of a mystery why the .257 was "underloaded," and still is. I don't know of any "vintage" .257 rifle that wouldn't easily withstand higher than +P pressures.
While some +P .257 has been thicker than standard .257 brass, this also has no practical bearing on how much pressure the brass can stand. Your Kimber Montana can safely use handloads developing 65,000 PSI, just like any modern .270, with either kind of brass.
If some of the +P brass is thicker/heavier than standard brass, wouldn't it be prudent not to use the same combination of primer, powder, and bullet in a mix +P and standard brass?
Yes, but it's prudent to not mix cases of any cartridge without weighing them first--even if they're the same brand and supposed type.
The only +P .257 brass that I ever came across that was significantly heavier than standard .257 of the same brand was some early Winchester cases, which of course did require dropping powder charges somewhat from those worked up with standard brass. But that was in the 1980s--and I've never encountered any .257 brass that was nearly as heavy since then.
Have some +P .257 Hornady brass from some factory +P ammo purchased maybe three years ago for an article in Rifle on a first-year production pre'64 Winchester Model 70. The Hornady brass was right in the "normal" range for .257 Roberts cases.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Great information, Thanks! Mathman, I will reference 6mm Remington data as you suggest. If I can get a 101 gr Barnes bullet to 3100 fps or close out of a 22” barrel, I’ll be very happy. Next I’ll be bugging you guys about the 250 Savage.
Great information, Thanks! Mathman, I will reference 6mm Remington data as you suggest. If I can get a 101 gr Barnes bullet to 3100 fps or close out of a 22” barrel, I’ll be very happy. Next I’ll be bugging you guys about the 250 Savage.
You can beat that speed with H-100V. This is out of a 24" Brux on a LA 700, thus the longer COAL. I've posted this one before.
No signs of pressure, cases extract freely. The 100 TTSX at that speed is a deer and hog killer. Gunner calls it a "little buzz saw" and he ain't wrong.
Now, if you want to get real fancy, try the 90 gr Absolute Hammer at 3,450 fps. Google Absolute Hammer load data. That bullet is designed with very low friction and is in an altogether different league. Terminal performance is really great; those bullets are mono's but more expansive than Barnes. I've not killed anything with a 257R Hammer bullet, just started loading it. I can tell you about the 178 Shock Hammer out of my Pre-64 FWT .358 Win. That one messed up a WT chest pretty bad.
Yes, H100V gets about as much velocity as possible with 100-grain bullets in the .257 Roberts.
BUT I have also tested H100V extensively (along with other powders) at different temperatures in the .257--and it's particularly sensitive to temperature changes. This may or may not matter in your hunting, depending on both temperature and range, but have seen many loads that vary widely change point-of-impact at 100 yards up to 3"--which means 6" at 200--at temperatures from near zero to "normal."
In general I use less temp-sensitive powders, partly because I live in Montana--where recorded temperatures vary wider than any other state. But have also found that another 50-100 fps in muzzle velocity (or even far more) makes no difference in "killing power" when you hit deer in the right place with a decent bullet. Which is why I tend to use more temp-resistant powders in the .257, whether shooting 100-grain bullets at 3100+ fps or 115-120s at 2900 or so.
If you want more detailed information, there's plenty on the .257 in my books, available from www.riflesandrecipes.com. I would especially recommend The Big Book of Gun Gack II, which has an entire chapter on temperature's effects on handloads, including range-tests for a bunch cartridges from the .17 Hornady Hornet to .375 H&H--including the .257 Roberts.
Among other things, I have found that heating or cooling only the ammo does not consistently reflect what might happen in the field, when the rifle's temperature also affects results. Which is why I tend to use temp-resistant powders like H4350 in the .257, which can easily get 3100+ fps with 100-grain bullets in typical 22-24 inch barrels, and 2900+ with 115-120s.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
The cartridges/rifles I reload for all seem to do very well with H4350 or H4895, but it seems everybody else in my area likes them too because they’re almost always unavailable. During deer season temperatures here range from around 60f to maybe 15 or 20, but I do most of my load testing on the warm end, so I’ve tried to use the one of the Extremes whenever I can, even though I’m not sure that this is enough of a temperature swing to really matter.
MD, I've been meaning to get your books. I only recently discovered Rifles and Recipes and Rifle Loony News. Your work for Rifle Mag really elevated that publication, IMO.
DF, I have a lot of confidence in Barnes bullets from using them successfully over the years so have hesitated to spend even more $ on Hammers, but they do look interesting. Recently I picked up the LRX series in the calibers I plan to use going forward: .257, .264 and .277. 257 is a new one for me, which is why I started this thread.
A friend gave me around 60 new, unfired RP 257 Roberts cases. They are probably at least 25 years old. Since +P 257 Rob cases are kind of expensive these days, I was planning on using these standard velocity cases in my Kimber Montana. Are the standard cases made from thinner brass, so I should I work up standard velocity loads for them? Or... is it just that the head stamp is different to prevent someone from inadvertently shooting +P loads in a vintage rifle?
Hard to beat 47.0 gr Ramshot Hunter in a Rem case with 100 gr TTSX for accuracy. I average a fuzz over 3,000 fps in a 22” Ruger M77. That’s a JB load from Gun Gack. I think other loads might push the 100 gr Barnes or BT a little faster. Mine shoots cloverleaf groups with that load. That’ll take anything that a .257 Roberts is appropriate for.
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
A friend gave me around 60 new, unfired RP 257 Roberts cases. They are probably at least 25 years old. Since +P 257 Rob cases are kind of expensive these days, I was planning on using these standard velocity cases in my Kimber Montana. Are the standard cases made from thinner brass, so I should I work up standard velocity loads for them? Or... is it just that the head stamp is different to prevent someone from inadvertently shooting +P loads in a vintage rifle?
I don't think that there were ever any weak factory built rifles chambered in 257 Roberts, vintage or otherwise.
I have a few rifles chambered in 257 Roberts and 257 AI, the weakest of which is either the rebsrreled Swedish 1896 SR military Mauser or the rechambered Savage 99 CD. FWIW, I use Winchester brass and have pretty much settled on the 75 grain VMax for shooting predators and the 110 grain AB for game over an appropriate weighed load of H4895.
The cartridges/rifles I reload for all seem to do very well with H4350 or H4895, but it seems everybody else in my area likes them too because they’re almost always unavailable. During deer season temperatures here range from around 60f to maybe 15 or 20, but I do most of my load testing on the warm end, so I’ve tried to use the one of the Extremes whenever I can, even though I’m not sure that this is enough of a temperature swing to really matter.
MD, I've been meaning to get your books. I only recently discovered Rifles and Recipes and Rifle Loony News. Your work for Rifle Mag really elevated that publication, IMO.
DF, I have a lot of confidence in Barnes bullets from using them successfully over the years so have hesitated to spend even more $ on Hammers, but they do look interesting. Recently I picked up the LRX series in the calibers I plan to use going forward: .257, .264 and .277. 257 is a new one for me, which is why I started this thread.
My experience in temperature-testing is that just about any modern rifle powder will be pretty consistent in velocity between the 20s and 80s Fahrenheit. Below 20 and above about 85 is where temp-resistant powders can make a real difference--but in hotter weather they still tend to gain some velocity (and hence pressure), though less than standard powders.
Thanks for the nice words about my Rifle articles! I suspect you will like the books, partly because some of the chapters are essentially updates and/or expansions of articles that previously appeared in Rifle and some other magazines.
Might also mention that my wife has used the .257 Roberts with 100-grain Barnes TSX's on game as large as cow elk, quite successfully. She has mostly used the load listed for Hunter powder, which is listed in the .257 chapter of Gun Gack IV, Rifle Loads That Work--which was just published last fall. From the 24" barrel of her New Ultra Light Arms rifle the load gets around 3100 fps.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Great information, Thanks! Mathman, I will reference 6mm Remington data as you suggest. If I can get a 101 gr Barnes bullet to 3100 fps or close out of a 22” barrel, I’ll be very happy. Next I’ll be bugging you guys about the 250 Savage.
You can beat that speed with H-100V. This is out of a 24" Brux on a LA 700, thus the longer COAL. I've posted this one before.
No signs of pressure, cases extract freely. The 100 TTSX at that speed is a deer and hog killer. Gunner calls it a "little buzz saw" and he ain't wrong.
Now, if you want to get real fancy, try the 90 gr Absolute Hammer at 3,450 fps. Google Absolute Hammer load data. That bullet is designed with very low friction and is in an altogether different league. Terminal performance is really great; those bullets are mono's but more expansive than Barnes. I've not killed anything with a 257R Hammer bullet, just started loading it. I can tell you about the 178 Shock Hammer out of my Pre-64 FWT .358 Win. That one messed up a WT chest pretty bad.
DF
Have you tried the 80 grain TTSX?
The work nicely in my 700 CDL-SF's 24" barrel and still feed smoothly from the short action magazine, but are kind of expensive, compared to the 110 grain ABs, just for shooting whitetails.
Some of you fellas are loonier than me, and that's a little scary!
Question: I've whacked a few critters with old school Bobby, boom flop every time. You fellas jackin' up the velocity AND pressure are delving into a world that increases barrel erosion a fair bit. I'm OK leaving well enough alone and wonder if there's a vaccination for the condition y'all suffer?
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
Some of you fellas are loonier than me, and that's a little scary!
Question: I've whacked a few critters with old school Bobby, boom flop every time. You fellas jackin' up the velocity AND pressure are delving into a world that increases barrel erosion a fair bit. I'm OK leaving well enough alone and wonder if there's a vaccination for the condition y'all suffer?
Gotta agree with you, Dan. I load a 100 grain SGK and have killed several deer with it. I’d venture to say that 2900 fps is a little too fast for that bullet. Knocks them down for sure. I could maybe see the need if I were to take the rifle after elk like Mule Deer’s wife, but for deer I don’t see the need.
Some of you fellas are loonier than me, and that's a little scary!
Question: I've whacked a few critters with old school Bobby, boom flop every time. You fellas jackin' up the velocity AND pressure are delving into a world that increases barrel erosion a fair bit. I'm OK leaving well enough alone and wonder if there's a vaccination for the condition y'all suffer?
That brought a grin from me!
It's been quite a while since Ned Roberts developed his original version of the round as a woodchuck cartridge, and quite a while since woodchucks (or "groundhogs," as they're called in other parts of their Eastern range) have been abundant and available enough to burn out many barrels. Plus, better woodchuck cartridges have been developed since then--partly due to newer bullets with higher BCs and faster twist barrels.
Right now we have two .257s, my paternal grandmother's Remington 722, which left the factory in 1953. I don't know how many rounds the barrel had through it when it got passed along to Eileen in 1984, when she first started hunting. It probably wasn't over 200, even though several members of the family had used it as well, including my father. (If I recall correctly, Eileen was the 6th.) They were all factory loads, because neither Grandma B. or the rest of 'em handloaded. But she still managed to kill game up to elk, even with the typical factory loads of the day.
We shot a lot of rockchucks with the rifle during the first few years, partly to provide Eileen more practice, and even some prairie dogs. I also used it on the one Eastern "groundhog" hunt I've done, with Melvin Forbes in West-by-God Virginia around 30 years ago. Right now 1049 rounds have gone through the barrel since 1984, some when it was pretty warm. While a little throat erosion can be seen through my Hawkeye bore-scope, it will still group three shots of its favored handloads under an inch at 100 yards, especially the 100-grain Ballistic Tip and Barnes TTSX--and I used the TTSX take its most recent animal, a pronghorn at right around 350 yards.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Well, I was just experimentin' a few years ago with my M70 SG put together in 1951 and it did this at 100 yards. It doesn't seem too concerned about run out. The bullet was a Horny 117 gr BTSP, So I tweaked the up/down/left/right knobs after #15 and.......imagine that. A barrel that's more than 70 years old......
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
I have 80 gr TTSX bullets coming in a couple of days. I mainly got them for the 250 Savage, but I’m for sure going to see how they do in the Roberts. I loaded some 101 gr bullets today, using the Barnes load data for 100 grain TTSX. From among the powders they tested I had nearly a full jug of Reloder 17, so I loaded a few different charges with that, from a grain or so under their published max to half a grain over.
DD, I’m not surprised with your Model 70’s accuracy—my friend has a standard grade pre ‘64 in the Roberts that shoots amazingly well. Also, I’m not planing on going to go too hot with my loads, but in my admittedly limited experience, Barnes bullets seem to do best when pushed relatively hard. I like them because they almost always go clear through and don’t fragment if you happen to get a close shot >20’, which has happened enough times where I hunt that I have to factor it in.
Yet I read a chapter in a book which appeared almost 40 years ago, authored by a then often-published gun writer, who claimed the .257 Roberts wasn't very accurate.
Not so oddly, the guy disappeared from the gun-writing biz during the 1990s. But that's another story....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Yet I read a chapter in a book which appeared almost 40 years ago, authored by a then often-published gun writer, who claimed the .257 Roberts wasn't very accurate.
Not so oddly, the guy disappeared from the gun-writing biz during the 1990s. But that's another story....
The Hunter's Rifle or The Rifles, The Cartridges, And The Game or Popular Sporting Rifle Cartridges?
I'd bet that Rick Jamison could too, since Clay cited him repeatedly. I enjoyed the story about the rifle that Kimber loaned to him for an article that he was writing and instead of returning it to Kimber, he sold it to some guy who later called Kimber for customer service.
Here's an old Campfire thread about Clay. It's long, but worth reading, partly because it involves some people who were very involved with the early 'Fire:
Yes--but apparently it was short-lived. He published a half-dozen of "action" novels around 2000, some under his name and some under a pseudonym. According the reviews they were filled with lots of shooting of evil people, and plenty of mentions of firearms, but whether the firearm info was any more "accurate" than in his gun writing I dunno. And then all of a sudden, both Clay and his pseudonym disappeared.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Steve's tribute to his friend Allen Day in that thread is a snippet of his talent. Sure do miss the nuggets he used to bring here.
UnderMountain, I got some of those 80 gr Barnes, just because they look cool. Pretty sure the 100 gr cup and core's will work at the ol Bob Speed for our shots here in the North East. But it has always been fun to dream about taking the rifles out to where they can stretch the range a bit and see what a bullet does on paper. Enjoy your search for the perfect load.
I used to only shoot shotguns and rimfires, then I made the mistake of getting a subscription to handloader.......
I placed an order for Gun Gack II the other day. Looking forward to reading it.
Meanwhile I tried my first Roberts loads today. Kimber Montana 22" barrel. I used IMR 4350 starting at 45 grains and increasing in 1/2 gr increments up to 48 gr. 3 shot groups were around an inch until I got up to 47 gr and then they opened up considerably. 46.5 grains gave about the best accuracy/velocity at around 3030 fps, but I hope I can do better in regards to both with a different powder. Forgot to add this is with the 101 grain LRX.
I was out that way last winter for Work. Near Bulls Bridge and Roxbury. Very nice to return to the Hills near where I grew up. Saw some really good sign on the Eversource ROW's where the work took place. CT still has some good spots to use your rifle and those loads. And if you jump the border to UpState, your really in the game with a rifle. Most of my sits are over in the East with a bow now, but I still like the rifle for the nostalgia it brings from my early hunting mentors.
I used to only shoot shotguns and rimfires, then I made the mistake of getting a subscription to handloader.......
Yes--but apparently it was short-lived. He published a half-dozen of "action" novels around 2000, some under his name and some under a pseudonym. According the reviews they were filled with lots of shooting of evil people, and plenty of mentions of firearms, but whether the firearm info was any more "accurate" than in his gun writing I dunno. And then all of a sudden, both Clay and his pseudonym disappeared.
They married four years later, and when Christopher was born, Harvey chucked gun writing altogether. "I didn't have any passion for it anymore,' Harvey says. ``After a while, you've said everything there is to say."
Actually he was run out of the business, because he'd sold every gun a manufacturer sent him--without even paying the standard writers' discount for it, which is usually wholesale.
Last edited by Mule Deer; 04/13/23.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Great information, Thanks! Mathman, I will reference 6mm Remington data as you suggest. If I can get a 101 gr Barnes bullet to 3100 fps or close out of a 22” barrel, I’ll be very happy. Next I’ll be bugging you guys about the 250 Savage.
You can beat that speed with H-100V. This is out of a 24" Brux on a LA 700, thus the longer COAL. I've posted this one before.
No signs of pressure, cases extract freely. The 100 TTSX at that speed is a deer and hog killer. Gunner calls it a "little buzz saw" and he ain't wrong.
Now, if you want to get real fancy, try the 90 gr Absolute Hammer at 3,450 fps. Google Absolute Hammer load data. That bullet is designed with very low friction and is in an altogether different league. Terminal performance is really great; those bullets are mono's but more expansive than Barnes. I've not killed anything with a 257R Hammer bullet, just started loading it. I can tell you about the 178 Shock Hammer out of my Pre-64 FWT .358 Win. That one messed up a WT chest pretty bad.
DF
Have you tried the 80 grain TTSX?
The work nicely in my 700 CDL-SF's 24" barrel and still feed smoothly from the short action magazine, but are kind of expensive, compared to the 110 grain ABs, just for shooting whitetails.
The only 80 gr TTSX I've tried was out of my .240 Wby at 3,600 fps. Evidently that speed was a bit much for that bullet, as there was a huge blast effect on a WT chest wall, unimpressive pencil thru the chest cavity and a slow kill. They say mono's don't have a velocity ceiling, just not sure how true that is from a practical standpoint.
Not sure how the .25 cal version would do at Roberts speed, probably OK. What's your experience with it?
The bullet I now use in the .240 Wby. is the 100 gr. Partition, which shoots half MOA and is a killer. Gun is an HS Precision SPL in a McM Hunter's Edge. Occasionally the Partition proves to be the best shooting bullet in a gun and that's never a bad thing. HS makes their own cut rifle barrels in house and from what I've seen and experienced, they're about as good as Brux or Krieger, at least it shoots as good as those barrels in my other rifles.
Don't get me wrong, the 6mm 80 gr. TTSX was super accurate, but after that experience, IMO not the best WT bullet for that gun.
The 80 TTSX is the only consistently accurate I have found for my 257R M70. ( 22" FWT contour bbl on a short action lightweight). Shoots lights out and hammers bambi. Just short of 3400fps. Never recovered one.
The 80 TTSX is the only consistently accurate I have found for my 257R M70. ( 22" FWT contour bbl on a short action lightweight). Shoots lights out and hammers bambi. Just short of 3400fps. Never recovered one.
May have to check those out. Never tried them.
I have a sample of 90 gr. Absolute Hammer's to try. Those reportedly will run at around 3,450 fps, and should be accurate.
Hammer sells 15 bullet sample packs in about anything they make, which is handy to try before investing in a larger number. That helps, as they are expensive.
DF
Edited to ask, what's your load for those 80 gr. TTSX's in your Roberts?
in my family the ladies and youth all now have 257 Roberts rifles i made sure of that after a few years of to many different cartridges in rifles and now i got my 10 yr. old grandson a real nice 257 Roberts Ruger #1 , i plan on getting some 75 gr. Hammer Hunter bullets and using Reloader 17 powder , i notice in the Federal Cartridge small brochure type reloading manual i have Federal used Reloader 17 for the 257 Roberts. when i am with my Grandson it will be the only rifle with us Grandson`s 257 Roberts in a Ruger #1 Grandson will be doing all the shooting tell his tags are filled !
Lots of great stories and discussion in this thread. Thanks to all - most enjoyable.
I'll add another endorsement to the 100 TSX in the Roberts. I shot it at a little over 3100 FPS in my old 722 as my only hunting rifle and load for a decade and it never failed me. Never lost a critter hit with that load and most DRT'ed.
I guess I missed out on the Clay Harvey writings unless I skimmed his articles and blew it off as rank amateur. There are those magazine writers who are certainly not subject matter experts and it usually shows, sooner or later. That guy sounds more like a con artist than anything else.
Upon further review, looks like he went room temp.
The .257 Roberts was never factory loaded to pressures as high as, say, the .270 Winchester--which has a standard SAAMI Average Pressure (MAP ) of 65,000 PSI--as high as SAAMI allows for any cartridge. Even the +P ammo is only loaded to a 58,000 PSI MAP--which is less than the .30-06's 60,000, and the .30-06 had been chambered in at least as many actions (and old rifles) unsuitable for higher pressures as the .257.
I keep circling back to wishing that there was some sort of formula that would put some of these older cartridges - handloaded, of course - at or near the 65,000 PSI SAAMI limit. For instance, I'd love to know what a 7x57, in particular, would do velocity-wise with various bullets at 65k. Same with anything else that isn't loaded to the same pressures. It seems rather arbitrary to me that even some of the newer cartridges aren't given 65k as the max while some older cartridges, like the 6mm Rem and .270 Win, are. I suppose that the only way to approximate it without a piezometer is to use Quick Load or something like that. I've tried to decipher JB's 4:1 rule, but I'm not sure it's giving me what I'm looking for. Of course, I'm probably totally misunderstanding it as well, but there's nothing new in that!
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
RevMike, that’s the underlying issue for me as well. I don’t have a huge library of reloading manuals and the books I do have are pretty dated, so I look up online load information like the data that Barnes publishes. For an older cartridge like the 7x57 or in my case the 257Rob, I get starting and max loads, but only a vague reference to the pressure. Considering what they are charging these days for bullets, etc it would be nice if they were a little less stingy with the information.
I keep circling back to wishing that there was some sort of formula that would put some of these older cartridges - handloaded, of course - at or near the 65,000 PSI SAAMI limit. For instance, I'd love to know what a 7x57, in particular, would do velocity-wise with various bullets at 65k. Same with anything else that isn't loaded to the same pressures.
Here's an example. To be clear I'm not telling you what to do, I'm simply providing a first order approximation to model the situation. The operating assumption is that we may assume linearity in the calculations of the relationships between charge weight, pressure and velocity. This is quite reasonable when single based powders are used in the "typical" pressure ranges.
I checked Hodgdon's online data for the 7x57 using a 140 grain Ballistic tip and H4350. The pressures were listed in CUP, not PSI, but the principle is the same. The highest pressure cartridges with CUP specs, 300 H&H for example, top out about 54,000 CUP. So I'll consider that to be the ceiling for this calculation.
Consider the 7x57 data in ordered pairs like (charge weight in grains, pressure in CUP). So we have (43.0 , 40,400) and (46.5 , 46,000).
If we calculate (change in charge weight) / (change in pressure) we get (46.5 - 43) / (46000 - 40400) = .000625 grains per CUP.
Now suppose we want to go to the 54,000 CUP ceiling. From the upper listed data point that's a change of 54,000 - 46,000 = 8,000 CUP. So now we may find (8,000 CUP) x (.000625 grains/CUP) = 5 grains. That is, the projected charge increase to move the pressure from the listed 46,000 CUP to the ceiling 54,000 CUP is 5 grains. [Side note: I'm not really familiar with 7x57 case capacity, so I don't know how well five more grains will fit in there.]
Now we use this number to calculate a velocity projection. The listed data for charge and velocity produces a similar set of ordered pairs (charge in grains , velocity in fps).
(43 , 2530) and (46.5 , 2682) So we have the ratio (2682 - 2530) / (46.5 - 43) = 152/3.5 = 43.43 fps per grain
Our charge projected increase is 5 grains, so now we have 5 grains x 43.43 fps/grain = 217.15 fps change. 217 in round figures.
Listed max velocity + projected increase = 2682 + 217 = 2899 fps. So we're projecting a 2900 fps ceiling for this combination.
Testing this model is where a good chronograph and at least five shots per charge weight at increments leading to the projected maximum should be used to make sure we're staying in the linear region.
I keep circling back to wishing that there was some sort of formula that would put some of these older cartridges - handloaded, of course - at or near the 65,000 PSI SAAMI limit. For instance, I'd love to know what a 7x57, in particular, would do velocity-wise with various bullets at 65k. Same with anything else that isn't loaded to the same pressures. It seems rather arbitrary to me that even some of the newer cartridges aren't given 65k as the max while some older cartridges, like the 6mm Rem and .270 Win, are. I suppose that the only way to approximate it without a piezometer is to use Quick Load or something like that. I've tried to decipher JB's 4:1 rule, but I'm not sure it's giving me what I'm looking for. Of course, I'm probably totally misunderstanding it as well, but there's nothing new in that!
Sorry the 4-to-1 Rule seems complicated! I'll give an example and see if it helps, comparing the .257 Roberts to the .25-06:
The .25-06 holds around 62 grains of water/powder, compared to the .257's 52 grains. If we divide 62 by 52, the difference is slightly more than 19%.
Divide 19% by four, and the result is 4.75%. This means the .257 is capable of around 95% of the velocity of the .25-06, when loaded to the same pressure in the same length barrel.
Most .25-06 handloaded data lists around 3300 fps as the top velocity for 100-grain bullets, using the best (fastest-velocity) powders--and almost all is listed for 24" barrels. This means that with the best powders the .257 can get around 95% of .25-06 velocities from 24" barrels, which means 3135 fps.
The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the .25-06 is 63,000 PSI. I have no idea why it's not 65,000, but one guess would be to keep pressures slightly lower in older rifles put together when the .25-06 was still a wildcat--but there it is. This means 65,000 PSI loads in the .257 might get around 3150 with 100-grain bullets from a 24" barrel.
When I was much younger, I pushed 100-grain Hornady Spire Points and Nosler Partitions to 3250 fps from the 24" barrel of my Remington 722 .257 using IMR4350, with none of the "traditional" signs of high pressure. But anymore 3150 fps seems to be sufficient--which is the velocity of the Ramshot Hunter/100-grain TTSX load Eileen's has used in her NULA .257 for many years--which also has a 24" barrel. She's taken plenty of pronghorns and deer with the load, and one cow elk.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
would be interesting to figure the recoil difference too 257 Roberts VS. 25-06 ? >if someone feels they just got too shoot as fast or faster than a 25-06 just buy a 257 Weatherby mag. . > myself i am starting to really like/ enjoy the 257 Roberts more its accurate and very little recoil for my beat up old shoulders, 10 yr. old Grandson can handle the 257 Roberts well too.
would be interesting to figure the recoil difference too 257 Roberts VS. 25-06 ? >if someone feels they just got too shoot as fast or faster than a 25-06 just buy a 257 Weatherby mag. . > myself i am starting to really like/ enjoy the 257 Roberts more its accurate and very little recoil for my beat up old shoulders, 10 yr. old Grandson can handle the 257 Roberts well too.
I’ve had and used all three rounds. The Roberts is the only one still in my safe. Others were traded.
would be interesting to figure the recoil difference too 257 Roberts VS. 25-06 ? >if someone feels they just got too shoot as fast or faster than a 25-06 just buy a 257 Weatherby mag. . > myself i am starting to really like/ enjoy the 257 Roberts more its accurate and very little recoil for my beat up old shoulders, 10 yr. old Grandson can handle the 257 Roberts well too.
Wouldn't felt recoil have other variables involved other than the cartridge? Stock design and the overall package weight come to mind.
I've owned at least one rifle chambered in 257 Roberts since 1982, but I've shot the Roberts in pre-'64 Model 70s since the late 1960s. For a long time, I championed the 257 Roberts, 257 AI, and 25-284 over the 25-06 because they were different, while the 25-06 was too common and plebian for a sophisticated gun guy like me. However, after buying a Marlin XL7 in 25-06 from the free classified ads on this site in 2012, I decided that a 25-06 with a 22" barrel wasn't such a bad idea after all.
Have owned, handloaded for, and hunted big game a lot with .25-caliber cartridges including the .250-3000 Savage, 257 Roberts, .257 Roberts Ackley Improved, .25-06 and .257 Weatherby Magnum for many years. All will kill game up to elk with the right bullet and bullet placement--and within the range the bullet will expand and penetrate.
While I realize this isn't the minutiae argument the Campfire prefers, this has been my experience with probably 100 big game animals.
Oh, and the .25s also work on varmints...
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
i also have a 257 Creedmoor with a brux barrel contour same as a Remington varmint barrel , i also have a Remington 30 express with a heavy contour #3 Brux barrel that`s all customize . both have a 8 twist barrel and both will shoot 2`s and 3`s 5 shot groups at 100 yards only thing is the 257 Roberts i have killed deer with , likes any size bullet in a 25 caliber , easy to carry hunting and that old 257 Roberts is one heck of easy cartridge to load for too. i have 2 cases of loaded 257 Roberts ammo ready for the family and plan on loading even more for their future too.
And very wimpy factory ammo. Which is what my grandmother used to take the same basic array of game.
But she was a very good shot--and never used a scope. Also apparently never used a shotgun to wingshoot gamebirds, instead preferring a pump .22.
She knew Ed McGivern pretty well, because she also lived in Lewistown, Montana--where she also eventually became the superintendent of the Fergus County school system. She had Ed demonstrate his skills on the high-school football field for the students--which included my father.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I have enjoyed this thread immensely, as I have a 250-3000 and believe much of what was said here has some application to the old Savage cartridge. Mine is a Ruger M77RSI with a 20 inch barrel (Mannlicher stock) and I have to believe it can handle the 65000 pressure, same as the 6mm Rem and .270. I'm not looking to hotrod it necessarily, but there must be some performance potential to be accessed safely between the 48000 SAAMI standard and the 65000. Factory ammo is hard to come by and the Remington is PSP, NOT Core-lokt. Not sure if Winchester loads it any more. I've only seen one box of Hornady Custom ammo for sale in the last five years and they wanted mucho dinero for for that, so I decided they didn't really want to sell it and left it there.
Fortunately, I have 500 pieces of new Remington brass acquired at a gun show several years ago. Unfortunately, Hornady has discontinued the 100 gr. Interlock .257 component bullets, though that's exactly what they load in their Custom ammo and I just have a hunch that could be a 'perfect' bullet for the .250-3000.
Hornady 115-117gr .257 IL bullets seem to be plentiful and relatively cheap, but I wonder if they were designed for 25-06 and Weatherby velocities. I also wonder if the Savage would spin them fast enough to stabilize. Has anyone here loaded the heavier bullets in the Savage? What was your experience with them?
I'm also not concerned about making it a dinosaur slayer. It's a dandy little deer stand rifle but if I had a chance to hunt something big (Nilgai? Elk?) I would just take my 7mm-08, 30-06, .270 or 7 Mag. I also have a .260 Mountaiin Rifle that punches above its weight with 140 Nosler Partitions...you get the idea.
I have enjoyed this thread immensely, as I have a 250-3000 and believe much of what was said here has some application to the old Savage cartridge. Mine is a Ruger M77RSI with a 20 inch barrel (Mannlicher stock) and I have to believe it can handle the 65000 pressure, same as the 6mm Rem and .270. I'm not looking to hotrod it necessarily, but there must be some performance potential to be accessed safely between the 48000 SAAMI standard and the 65000. Factory ammo is hard to come by and the Remington is PSP, NOT Core-lokt. Not sure if Winchester loads it any more. I've only seen one box of Hornady Custom ammo for sale in the last five years and they wanted mucho dinero for for that, so I decided they didn't really want to sell it and left it there.
Fortunately, I have 500 pieces of new Remington brass acquired at a gun show several years ago. Unfortunately, Hornady has discontinued the 100 gr. Interlock .257 component bullets, though that's exactly what they load in their Custom ammo and I just have a hunch that could be a 'perfect' bullet for the .250-3000.
Hornady 115-117gr .257 IL bullets seem to be plentiful and relatively cheap, but I wonder if they were designed for 25-06 and Weatherby velocities. I also wonder if the Savage would spin them fast enough to stabilize. Has anyone here loaded the heavier bullets in the Savage? What was your experience with them?
I'm also not concerned about making it a dinosaur slayer. It's a dandy little deer stand rifle but if I had a chance to hunt something big (Nilgai? Elk?) I would just take my 7mm-08, 30-06, .270 or 7 Mag. I also have a .260 Mountaiin Rifle that punches above its weight with 140 Nosler Partitions...you get the idea.
Ruger 77 RSIs would probably balance better if they had 20" barrels.
Have owned, handloaded for, and hunted big game a lot with .25-caliber cartridges including the .250-3000 Savage, 257 Roberts, .257 Roberts Ackley Improved, .25-06 and .257 Weatherby Magnum for many years. All will kill game up to elk with the right bullet and bullet placement--and within the range the bullet will expand and penetrate.
While I realize this isn't the minutiae argument the Campfire prefers, this has been my experience with probably 100 big game animals.
Oh, and the .25s also work on varmints...
You forgot in include the excellent, but mostly ignored, 25 WSSM!
I also have a Ruger RSI in 250 Savage. Waiting on Alaska Arms QD rings to arrive before I take it to the range for the first time. Mine is tang safety model, and yes it has an 18.5” barrel. Bought it from a member here recently. It’s beautiful.
Have owned, handloaded for, and hunted big game a lot with .25-caliber cartridges including the .250-3000 Savage, 257 Roberts, .257 Roberts Ackley Improved, .25-06 and .257 Weatherby Magnum for many years. All will kill game up to elk with the right bullet and bullet placement--and within the range the bullet will expand and penetrate.
While I realize this isn't the minutiae argument the Campfire prefers, this has been my experience with probably 100 big game animals.
Oh, and the .25s also work on varmints...
You forgot in include the excellent, but mostly ignored, 25 WSSM!
Never saw much point in the .25 WSSM, since it's (was?) basically a very short .25-06. Though shot a lot of prairie dogs with one when it was first introduced, during a hunt hosted by Winchester.
But my old friend, fellow gun writer and Montanan John Haviland, has used one considerably--including to take a B&C bighorn ram with the tag he finally drew maybe 12-15 years ago. John's a long-time fan of the .25-06, and was totally convinced it was the best .25 until trying the WSSM.
Not too long after he got the ram, we both went on an "industry" hunt on the King Ranch in South Texas, along with some other folks. The company was USRAC, and the rifles provided were Model 70s in .257 Roberts and .264 Winchester Magnum, and a Browning 1886 in .45-70. I worked up handloads for the .257s and the .45-70, since another "shortage" was occurring and factory ammo was scarce. The .257 load used H4350 and the 115 Nosler Partition, at 2900+ fps.
John had never killed anything with .25s other than the .25-06 and .25 WSSM, and apparently guessed the .257 Roberts wouldn't kill as well. But on the last evening of the hunt I got a shot at a 180-pound feral boar at around 200 yards, during the last few minutes of light. There had been a LOT of recent rain, and the grass was very high. Luckily, the pig was feeding alongside a dirt 2-track, and I managed to get with 200 yards--and had shooting sticks. Instead of trying to get fancy and try for a head or spine shot, I aimed just behind the shoulder and that's where the 115 Partition landed.
The pig collapsed and never moved. John said something like "Wow!" (I did too, silently. Have yet to hunt with any cartridge that always drops 'em right there with broadside lung shots.)
The other nice thing was the boar tasted fine....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Didn’t Rocky Rab do a write up on the 25-08? I seem to remember reading something like that, he wrote. Have a very good friend that uses her 250 Savage to great effect on VT whitetails. If that gun could talk it would have some stories to tell.
I used to only shoot shotguns and rimfires, then I made the mistake of getting a subscription to handloader.......
I've had a pile of Rob's, and I've mostly just used H4350. In 22" bbl's I just load 100's to around 3,050 fps +/- and 115/120's to 2,900 fps +/-. That's always worked well for me. But the 250 Savage is my favorite 25. Larry Koller got me on it, and I can't shake that introduction in my formative years...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
i never wanted a easy button but that was just the way i was brought up ,maybe that`s why my body is all beat up ? and now i had to switch beer brands what a dirty world , oh that`s right we were posting about the grand old 257 Roberts !
i never wanted a easy button but that was just the way i was brought up ,maybe that`s why my body is all beat up ? and now i had to switch beer brands what a dirty world , oh that`s right we were posting about the grand old 257 Roberts !
Probably a bunch of beer brand changers as of late.
I like Mathman’s “easy button” solution and I like my Roberts. Got’em both. Both keepers.
Maybe someone will come out with a 25-08 factory chambered rifle.
Doubt there’s a market for that one.
DF
That's what the 6.5 Creedmoor is... the "Better Bob."
Didn’t someone come up with the .25 Souper (25-08).
Didn’t set the woods on fire regarding popularity.
Probably enough .25’s already.
I like my .257R and my Creed.
DF
P.O. Ackley said that Warren Page created the 25 Souper.
I have a 25 Souper and think that it is basically a 257 Roberts with a 6mm shorter case length, 51mm vs. 57mm, so theoretically it fits in a short action with fewer COAL issues when loaded with longer/heavier bullets.
Have owned, handloaded for, and hunted big game a lot with .25-caliber cartridges including the .250-3000 Savage, 257 Roberts, .257 Roberts Ackley Improved, .25-06 and .257 Weatherby Magnum for many years. All will kill game up to elk with the right bullet and bullet placement--and within the range the bullet will expand and penetrate.
While I realize this isn't the minutiae argument the Campfire prefers, this has been my experience with probably 100 big game animals.
Oh, and the .25s also work on varmints...
You forgot in include the excellent, but mostly ignored, 25 WSSM!
Never saw much point in the .25 WSSM, since it's (was?) basically a very short .25-06. Though shot a lot of prairie dogs with one when it was first introduced, during a hunt hosted by Winchester.
But my old friend, fellow gun writer and Montanan John Haviland, has used one considerably--including to take a B&C bighorn ram with the tag he finally drew maybe 12-15 years ago. John's a long-time fan of the .25-06, and was totally convinced it was the best .25 until trying the WSSM.
Not too long after he got the ram, we both went on an "industry" hunt on the King Ranch in South Texas, along with some other folks. The company was USRAC, and the rifles provided were Model 70s in .257 Roberts and .264 Winchester Magnum, and a Browning 1886 in .45-70. I worked up handloads for the .257s and the .45-70, since another "shortage" was occurring and factory ammo was scarce. The .257 load used H4350 and the 115 Nosler Partition, at 2900+ fps.
John had never killed anything with .25s other than the .25-06 and .25 WSSM, and apparently guessed the .257 Roberts wouldn't kill as well. But on the last evening of the hunt I got a shot at a 180-pound feral boar at around 200 yards, during the last few minutes of light. There had been a LOT of recent rain, and the grass was very high. Luckily, the pig was feeding alongside a dirt 2-track, and I managed to get with 200 yards--and had shooting sticks. Instead of trying to get fancy and try for a head or spine shot, I aimed just behind the shoulder and that's where the 115 Partition landed.
The pig collapsed and never moved. John said something like "Wow!" (I did too, silently. Have yet to hunt with any cartridge that always drops 'em right there with broadside lung shots.)
The other nice thing was the boar tasted fine....
I think that the point of the whole WSSM line was that short, fat, cartridges were widely thought to be more inherently accurate and a super short action rifle would add incremental shelf space options to Winchester/USRA's and Browning's lines.
I'm a fan of the 25 WSSM, but realize that it isn't everyone's cup of tea and would never recommend them to anyone. The 25 WSSM was only cataloged by two producers, Browning and Winchester/USRA, and only in the Winchester/USRA line for two years before the production plant in New Haven, CT, closed in 2006. Also, the drought of good component brass has been a problem, both in availability and quality.
I have shot a lot of pdogs with the 25 WSSM, as well as a few deer. The heaviest whitetail that I've yet to take, around 275 lbs. field dressed, was a one shot dead in its tracks kill with a behind the should POA. It was so dead, so fast, that I thought that I'd missed it or it was wounded and had run off with the herd of does that it was with. I had to go back to where I took the shot and try to follow the line of sight until I stumbled across the body. I had to cut him in half to load him in the truck, 'cause I couldn't lift him to load him whole. That said, any other 0.257" bore cartridge shooting the same bullet, a 110 grain AB, at the same velocity and the POA would have killed that deer just as dead.
Never handled one, but wasn’t there something about the WSSM rounds not feeding too smooth? I would assume the factory versions had that worked out. Adapting those rounds to std actions may have been the rub. Trying to remember.
the only problem with the 25 WSSM is brass is hard to find , and expensive when you do find it . > Winchester made a big mistake i feel when they should have made a 25 WSM then they would have had a cartridge as fast as a 257 Weatherby mag. , easier to find or make brass and cheaper too. >many of us have always wondered why not a 25 WSM ? or maybe Remington ,Ruger or Hornady should have or could yet make the 25 WSM ?
My 250 and 300 Savage 700 Classics aren't going anywhere.
I just bought a 250 Savage 700 Classic and have not shot it yet. One issue with the 300 is the j-lock, which I could probably over look. Some have reported issues with them - others say there’s no problem.
I’m thinking the 250 would be at least as good a deer cartridge as the 243. I’ve shot a four deer with my 300 Savage 99 and I’m confident that the 300 is a good deer cartridge too - 4 one shot kills so far. I have a friend whose only center fire is a 300 Savage 99. His experience is all thumbs up.
I prefer classic. Semper Fi I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
Have mentioned this before, but the longer I've hunted and the more big game I've seen killed, the less difference I've found in how well various cartridges kill.
Many rifle loonies like to obsess over minutiae, such as a muzzle velocity, foot-pounds, bullet weight diameter, etc., but by far the two most important factors (I might call those that make a real difference) are bullet placement and terminal performance: If the bullet lands where it needs to, then expands and penetrates the vitals sufficiently, there's damn little difference, whether discussing deer or whatever.
This especially applies to cartridges that are far more similar than different, such as the .250 Savage and .243 Winchester.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Mule Deer, that's heresy! Obviously my favorite cartridge has a magical edge in killing power. Think it has to do with ballistic coefficients, sectional densities, and shoulder angles, but I'm not sure. 🤔
I used to have a USRAC model 70 Featherweight in .243. I had heard a few comments that the .243 was marginal on deer so I was a bit nervous taking it hunting. First time out with it, I hid behind a downed tree overlooking a hay field. It was a warm fall day, and I had a new baby at home, so was not getting much sleep. Anyway I dozed off and when I woke up an hour or so later there was a group of 5 or 6 deer in the field maybe 150 yards away. I put a careful shot behind the shoulder of the nearest buck and he dropped instantly, disappearing in the tall grass. The other deer bounded off. I reloaded and waited a minute or so, wondering if my marginal .243 had done the job when I saw the tips of his antlers moving through the grass as if he was sneaking away. I took a guess as to where his vitals were, shot again and he vanished in the grass again. When I went down there I found 2 nearly identical 8 point bucks, both dead.
Under, Funny story. I like the 257 since it has enough extra .000” over a 243 to be a “Man’s” gun ………… but it has enough history behind it to not get called a “ManBun”. Having enjoyed reading here since before I signed up in 07’ I have learned deer die with a 223 and good bullets. I’m sure the 257 Roberts will work which ever way you load it, up to AI levels or down toward 250-3000. And I bet your two bucks would have both failed to survive either choice. Your on the path to a good hunt.
I used to only shoot shotguns and rimfires, then I made the mistake of getting a subscription to handloader.......
I have enjoyed this thread immensely, as I have a 250-3000 and believe much of what was said here has some application to the old Savage cartridge. Mine is a Ruger M77RSI with a 20 inch barrel (Mannlicher stock) and I have to believe it can handle the 65000 pressure, same as the 6mm Rem and .270. I'm not looking to hotrod it necessarily, but there must be some performance potential to be accessed safely between the 48000 SAAMI standard and the 65000. Factory ammo is hard to come by and the Remington is PSP, NOT Core-lokt. Not sure if Winchester loads it any more. I've only seen one box of Hornady Custom ammo for sale in the last five years and they wanted mucho dinero for for that, so I decided they didn't really want to sell it and left it there.
Fortunately, I have 500 pieces of new Remington brass acquired at a gun show several years ago. Unfortunately, Hornady has discontinued the 100 gr. Interlock .257 component bullets, though that's exactly what they load in their Custom ammo and I just have a hunch that could be a 'perfect' bullet for the .250-3000.
Hornady 115-117gr .257 IL bullets seem to be plentiful and relatively cheap, but I wonder if they were designed for 25-06 and Weatherby velocities. I also wonder if the Savage would spin them fast enough to stabilize. Has anyone here loaded the heavier bullets in the Savage? What was your experience with them?
I'm also not concerned about making it a dinosaur slayer. It's a dandy little deer stand rifle but if I had a chance to hunt something big (Nilgai? Elk?) I would just take my 7mm-08, 30-06, .270 or 7 Mag. I also have a .260 Mountain Rifle that punches above its weight with 140 Nosler Partitions...you get the idea.
Ruger 77 RSIs would probably balance better if they had 20" barrels.
You're probably right; it may be an 18" or so. I haven't spent a lot of time measuring that barrel. It's probably my Custom Shop Model 7 with the laminated Mannlicher stock that has the 20". I have met a few guys who claim they like the balance of the long action RSI a bit better as well.
I have enjoyed this thread immensely, as I have a 250-3000 and believe much of what was said here has some application to the old Savage cartridge. Mine is a Ruger M77RSI with a 20 inch barrel (Mannlicher stock) and I have to believe it can handle the 65000 pressure, same as the 6mm Rem and .270. I'm not looking to hotrod it necessarily, but there must be some performance potential to be accessed safely between the 48000 SAAMI standard and the 65000. Factory ammo is hard to come by and the Remington is PSP, NOT Core-lokt. Not sure if Winchester loads it any more. I've only seen one box of Hornady Custom ammo for sale in the last five years and they wanted mucho dinero for for that, so I decided they didn't really want to sell it and left it there.
Fortunately, I have 500 pieces of new Remington brass acquired at a gun show several years ago. Unfortunately, Hornady has discontinued the 100 gr. Interlock .257 component bullets, though that's exactly what they load in their Custom ammo and I just have a hunch that could be a 'perfect' bullet for the .250-3000.
Hornady 115-117gr .257 IL bullets seem to be plentiful and relatively cheap, but I wonder if they were designed for 25-06 and Weatherby velocities. I also wonder if the Savage would spin them fast enough to stabilize. Has anyone here loaded the heavier bullets in the Savage? What was your experience with them?
I'm also not concerned about making it a dinosaur slayer. It's a dandy little deer stand rifle but if I had a chance to hunt something big (Nilgai? Elk?) I would just take my 7mm-08, 30-06, .270 or 7 Mag. I also have a .260 Mountain Rifle that punches above its weight with 140 Nosler Partitions...you get the idea.
Ruger 77 RSIs would probably balance better if they had 20" barrels.
You're probably right; it may be an 18" or so. I haven't spent a lot of time measuring that barrel. It's probably my Custom Shop Model 7 with the laminated Mannlicher stock that has the 20". I have met a few guys who claim they like the balance of the long action RSI a bit better as well.
I'm one of those who thinks that the long actions 77 and Hawkeye RSIs balance a little better than the comparable short actions, as do the 20" Remington 7 MS, and every Husqvarna with a Mannlicher-style stock that I've ever held.
Revival of an older thread with some good 257 info. Just got a small stash of Speer TNT 87 gr bullets they must have run. Anyone here have a load they like using these in their Roberts for ground hogs and paper targets? Seems Speer must have set up for 257 since I see 100 gr hot cores are showing on their website also
I used to only shoot shotguns and rimfires, then I made the mistake of getting a subscription to handloader.......
Been a while since I've done any shooting due to a vehicle wreck and other problems. I have two rifles chambered to the .257 Roberts, a Ruger $1B and an USRAC M70 Featherweight. The Ruger came with 120 rounds of Norma 100 gr. factory ammo and shoots it lights out accurate. The M70 FWT os a flat out dog so far with everything I've tried I basically wanted to shoot the 100 gr. TSX as my son in laws M70 FWT is a tack driver with that bullet. Mine scatters it all over the place along with everything else I've tried in the rifle. Tried glass bedding, a tigger job, new crown on the muzzle, all screws properly torqued using nail polish to help them stay tight to no avail. Yes, I've tried a different scope that I know was good. No change.
My legs, actually the knees are pretty well gone so walking out to set up targets isn't possible. You have to grab a base and stand as well right off the bat an take them out at 100/200 yards.. Range officers had a meeting a while back and furnished new rules. Now I can't drive out to set up or check targets. There's the county range which is even more strict.
Funny thing I have the same M70 model FWT in 7x57 as it's a very accurate rifle. PJ
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them. MOLON LABE
Been a while since I've done any shooting due to a vehicle wreck and other problems. I have two rifles chambered to the .257 Roberts, a Ruger $1B and an USRAC M70 Featherweight. The Ruger came with 120 rounds of Norma 100 gr. factory ammo and shoots it lights out accurate. The M70 FWT os a flat out dog so far with everything I've tried I basically wanted to shoot the 100 gr. TSX as my son in laws M70 FWT is a tack driver with that bullet. Mine scatters it all over the place along with everything else I've tried in the rifle. Tried glass bedding, a tigger job, new crown on the muzzle, all screws properly torqued using nail polish to help them stay tight to no avail. Yes, I've tried a different scope that I know was good. No change.
My legs, actually the knees are pretty well gone so walking out to set up targets isn't possible. You have to grab a base and stand as well right off the bat an take them out at 100/200 yards.. Range officers had a meeting a while back and furnished new rules. Now I can't drive out to set up or check targets. There's the county range which is even more strict.
Funny thing I have the same M70 model FWT in 7x57 as it's a very accurate rifle. PJ
If you did all of the remedial things that you've listed, it sounds like you got a bad barrel. Have you slugged the bore to see if it is oversize?
A friend gave me around 60 new, unfired RP 257 Roberts cases. They are probably at least 25 years old. Since +P 257 Rob cases are kind of expensive these days, I was planning on using these standard velocity cases in my Kimber Montana. Are the standard cases made from thinner brass, so I should I work up standard velocity loads for them? Or... is it just that the head stamp is different to prevent someone from inadvertently shooting +P loads in a vintage rifle?
Hard to beat 47.0 gr Ramshot Hunter in a Rem case with 100 gr TTSX for accuracy. I average a fuzz over 3,000 fps in a 22” Ruger M77. That’s a JB load from Gun Gack. I think other loads might push the 100 gr Barnes or BT a little faster. Mine shoots cloverleaf groups with that load. That’ll take anything that a .257 Roberts is appropriate for.
I use the same charge of Hunter over 100 TTSXs, but with Hornady brass, at 2950 fps. Accuracy is very good.
49.0 of Hunter at 3100 fps gives the same great accuracy, but I get an occasional flat primer, so I stick with the 47.0 charge.
This is out of a Montana.
My heart's in the mountains, my heart is not here. My heart's in the mountains, chasing the deer.
That 47.0 charge actually exceeds the maximum listed by Hodgdon for +P .257 data by half a a grain. But the load was worked up at the Western Powders pressure lab in Miles City, Montana, before Hodgdon bought Western, using the 100-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip, and pressure's listed at around 57,000 PSI. The grooves in the shank of 100-grain TTSXs probably reduce that a little bit.
Eileen has used the 47.0 grain load in her Ultra Light Arms Model 20 .257 for close to 20 years now. It gets 3150 fps from the 24" Douglas barrel, and has taken pronghorns, whitetails, mule deer and a cow elk.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
A friend gave me around 60 new, unfired RP 257 Roberts cases. They are probably at least 25 years old. Since +P 257 Rob cases are kind of expensive these days, I was planning on using these standard velocity cases in my Kimber Montana. Are the standard cases made from thinner brass, so I should I work up standard velocity loads for them? Or... is it just that the head stamp is different to prevent someone from inadvertently shooting +P loads in a vintage rifle?
If you really want to know, weigh both and compare. Within normal reloaders' ability to measure, brass density is a constant so the weight will tell you the relative case volumes.
I have never pushed the .257 real hard deliberately but I have never downloaded it deliberately either. In my earliest years reloading I tried reworking loads for different .257 brass and different primers with the same powder charges and bullet and same COL. So far as needed to adjust loads <at all> for accuracy or pressure within the limits of my testing I never could see any difference between Remington standard brass and WW +P brass nor later could I tell WW +P from Nosler +P. In comparison of primers, in my particular rifles, there wasn't any difference in pressure that I could "see" but for accuracy, Federal 210M and Federal 215 (there was no 215M back then) gave significantly better accuracy than Federal 210 standard primers. I have no explanation but it was very consistent and repeatable. ... for whatever that's worth.
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
My pronghorn getter since forever is a Bob built around a M77 Mk I "tanger" action. Standard recipe is / was 110 gr. NAB in front of 45.5 gr. H4350 which always produced 2,984+ fps from its 24" barrel.
I'm about out of NABs with no plans to get more. I think now is the time to switch bullets and work up a replacement load. I'm thinking of switching to the 110 gr. ELD-X which I can easily get a pile of.
Anyone loading the 110 gr. ELD-X in their Bob? Even better - using H4350?
It's you and the bullet, and all the rest is secondary.
This thread has been incredibly informative and I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed useful information. I wish Ramshot was available in my area, but it seems the few local stores I visit it or call basically say,”What’s Ramshot?” I can’t see ordering enough of it online to make the hazmat upcharge worth my while, without first testing if it actually works any better in my firearm than what I have on hand.
The good news is I’ve gotten pretty consistent results with my 257 Rob Kimber Montana (22” bbl) and the 101 gr LRX. 46 grains of IMR4350 delivers good accuracy (3 into .75” or so at 100 yds) at around 2900-3000 fps with no signs of pressure. Upping the charge even slightly gives better velocity, but the groups open up. I’ve tried it in hot weather and cool weather, with fireformed brass and new brass, letting the barrel cool between shots or not. It’s always that 46 grain load and .75-.80” @100yds. The other powders I’ve tried, Reloder 19 and H4350, have not given the same accuracy.
I had hoped for a little more velocity just to distinguish this gun from my other .257 cal which is a Ruger M77 RSI in .250 Savage. That one puts the same bullet into slightly smaller groups at around 2800fps. It’s easy (for me) to overthink these things—either rifle will get the job done nicely at the distances I shoot.
A friend gave me around 60 new, unfired RP 257 Roberts cases. They are probably at least 25 years old. Since +P 257 Rob cases are kind of expensive these days, I was planning on using these standard velocity cases in my Kimber Montana. Are the standard cases made from thinner brass, so I should I work up standard velocity loads for them? Or... is it just that the head stamp is different to prevent someone from inadvertently shooting +P loads in a vintage rifle?
So far as needed to adjust loads <at all> for accuracy or pressure within the limits of my testing I never could see any difference between Remington standard brass and WW +P brass nor later could I tell WW +P from Nosler +P. In comparison of primers, in my particular rifles, there wasn't any difference in pressure that I could "see" but for accuracy, Federal 210M and Federal 215 (there was no 215M back then) gave significantly better accuracy than Federal 210 standard primers. I have no explanation but it was very consistent and repeatable. ... for whatever that's worth.
Have found CONSIDERABLE difference in thickness/hardness of .257 brass over the decades. In fact the first Winchester +P cases were so much thicker than their standard brass that they blew primers using the same "++P" handload I was using back then in my Remington 722. But that was in the late 1980s.
Have also encountered more recent lots of Remington brass that wouldn't extract when using the same load, in older Remington brass, that we'd used for years in Eileen's NULA. Switched to new Winchester brass (not +P) and it extracted easily.
Right now am using Hornady brass, from fired +P factory ammo, which so far has been the most consistent and toughest .257 brass I've seen in a while. But that's also true of other Hornady brass I've used in other cartridges over the past several years.
Winchester has apparently been sub-contracting their brass production for a while now. There are several firms that specialize in this.
Might also mention that the difference between standard Federal 210 primers and 210Ms is the priming compound in 210Ms is more consistently spread, by workers who've proved that ability. Or at least that was true when I visited the Federal plant some years ago. It might seem weird that primer compound is spread by humans, not machines, but that's been the case in the primer factories I've visited.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Revival of an older thread with some good 257 info. Just got a small stash of Speer TNT 87 gr bullets they must have run. Anyone here have a load they like using these in their Roberts for ground hogs and paper targets? Seems Speer must have set up for 257 since I see 100 gr hot cores are showing on their website also
A while back I was loading some 257R, 87g Speer HC with 35g H-4895. About 2800fps, just punching paper. Good accuracy, easy shooting.
A while back I was loading some 257R, 87g Speer HC with 35g H-4895. About 2800fps, just punching paper. Good accuracy, easy shooting.
That's a half grain short of a 250 Savage load, so I believe it was very easy shooting. I have a similar mild load using Varget in my 700 Classic 250 Savage. Fun shooting, low recoil/report, no fatigue.
for our 257 Roberts reloaded ammo to deer hunt this 2023 fall deer season we will be using 75 gr. Hammer Hunter bullets with Reloader 17 powder at 3100-3200 FPS. have got great accuracy and consistent groups, but have not killed any deer yet with this 75 gr. bullet .
for our 257 Roberts reloaded ammo to deer hunt this 2023 fall deer season we will be using 75 gr. Hammer Hunter bullets with Reloader 17 powder at 3100-3200 FPS. have got great accuracy and consistent groups, but have not killed any deer yet with this 75 gr. bullet .
Look forward to terminal performance with the Hammer.
I like what I saw with the 178 gr Shock Hammer out of a .358 Win on a WT chest. Core exit with 6 satellite exits, 360* around the core. Pretty impressive, quick kill.
for our 257 Roberts reloaded ammo to deer hunt this 2023 fall deer season we will be using 75 gr. Hammer Hunter bullets with Reloader 17 powder at 3100-3200 FPS. have got great accuracy and consistent groups, but have not killed any deer yet with this 75 gr. bullet .
Look forward to terminal performance with the Hammer.
I like what I saw with the 178 gr Shock Hammer out of a .358 Win on a WT chest. Core exit with 6 satellite exits, 360* around the core. Pretty impressive, quick kill.
DF
the 3 animals i shot with the Hammer Hunter last fall 2022 the 103 gr. 25 caliber out of my Weatherby mag did well so i expect the 75 gr. Hammer Hunter will do well too ?
My pronghorn getter since forever is a Bob built around a M77 Mk I "tanger" action. Standard recipe is / was 110 gr. NAB in front of 45.5 gr. H4350 which always produced 2,984+ fps from its 24" barrel.
I'm about out of NABs with no plans to get more. I think now is the time to switch bullets and work up a replacement load. I'm thinking of switching to the 110 gr. ELD-X which I can easily get a pile of.
Anyone loading the 110 gr. ELD-X in their Bob? Even better - using H4350?
I did. I blew up 2 of them .. 2 shots, 2 deer, under 2 minutes, both disintegrated completely within the chest cavity. Went through the hide ok, first ribs seemingly ok, but the off-side of the rib cage was peppered by shrapnel with no apparent coherent bullet chunk hitting the off-side ribs at all. A friend of mine reloads / reloaded commercially for a while. His customers reported similar problems but only with the .25 cal accubond, no other diameters. I suspect Nosler let a batch of bad ones through quality control. They might be ok now. The ones I had, though, were likely barely suitable for coyotes.
Anyway, all that gack aside, my accuracy came from RL22. I forget the charge, maybe 47 grains .. do NOT trust that, it's from probably faulty memory.
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
A friend gave me around 60 new, unfired RP 257 Roberts cases. They are probably at least 25 years old. Since +P 257 Rob cases are kind of expensive these days, I was planning on using these standard velocity cases in my Kimber Montana. Are the standard cases made from thinner brass, so I should I work up standard velocity loads for them? Or... is it just that the head stamp is different to prevent someone from inadvertently shooting +P loads in a vintage rifle?
Hard to beat 47.0 gr Ramshot Hunter in a Rem case with 100 gr TTSX for accuracy. I average a fuzz over 3,000 fps in a 22” Ruger M77. That’s a JB load from Gun Gack. I think other loads might push the 100 gr Barnes or BT a little faster. Mine shoots cloverleaf groups with that load. That’ll take anything that a .257 Roberts is appropriate for.
I use the same charge of Hunter over 100 TTSXs, but with Hornady brass, at 2950 fps. Accuracy is very good.
49.0 of Hunter at 3100 fps gives the same great accuracy, but I get an occasional flat primer, so I stick with the 47.0 charge.
This is out of a Montana.
My old 1976 Ruger shoots the 100 gr TTSX or TSX to the same spot with 47.0 gr Hunter with LR primers in Rem or Fed cases. Just one of those loads that shoot predictably and haven’t dialed the scope in 10 years. Simply a case of “Don’t mess with Success”.
Last edited by WAM; 07/25/23.
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
A few years ago I chrono'd a factory 257R Winchester RN 117 gr bullet out of a 22" barrel Ruger. Only shot 2 rounds thru the screen, but they went 2620 and 2634, pretty pathetic, but they did shoot accurate enough for a woods hunt in Upstate NY.
I went back east to hunt with an old HS buddy. I sat next to a huge maple tree on a stonewall fence. I heard a deer coming toward me just at day break. He stopped 15 yards from me. I shot him with that 117 grainer and it did exit. Easiest shot I've ever had on a deer.
My paternal grandmother killed a pile of big game from pronghorns to elk with the original Winchester and Remington 117-grain RN factory load--which had the same 2650 fps MV--with the Remington 722 she was given by her second husband, who owned a hardware store in Denton, Montana. (My grandfather passed away during the Great Depression, and grandma waited almost 20 years before marrying again.)
She never handloaded, but did start shooting very early in life while growing up on a farm in southern Minnesota. After high school she homesteaded by herself in central Montana, and learned some stuff about shooting from Ed McGivern, the well-known author of Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, who also lived in Lewistown then. In fact, she eventually became superintendent of schools for Fergus County--and believe or not had McGivern perform shooting demonstrations for the high school. My father witnessed at least one, which if I recall correctly took place on the HS football field.
But my main point is it ain't so much what you shoot 'em with, but where you shoot 'em. Oh, and she never used a scope-sighted rifle in her lifetime....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
My paternal grandmother killed a pile of big game from pronghorns to elk with the original Winchester and Remington 117-grain RN factory load--which had the same 2650 fps MV--with the Remington 722 she was given by her second husband, who owned a hardware store in Denton, Montana. (My grandfather passed away during the Great Depression, and grandma waited almost 20 years before marrying again.)
She never handloaded, but did start shooting very early in life while growing up on a farm in southern Minnesota. After high school she homesteaded by herself in central Montana, and learned some stuff about shooting from Ed McGivern, the well-known author of Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, who also lived in Lewistown then. In fact, she eventually became superintendent of schools for Fergus County--and believe or not had McGivern perform shooting demonstrations for the high school. My father witnessed at least one, which if I recall correctly took place on the HS football field.
But my main point is it ain't so much what you shoot 'em with, but where you shoot 'em. Oh, and she never used a scope-sighted rifle in her lifetime....
John,
You didn’t say as much, but it helps if you know how to hunt too! Your grandmother sounds like quite a lady.
I keep coming back to this thread. Back in my younger days I had ‘favorite cartridges’ more so than now. I’ll blame it on bullets. I witnessed too many what I call bullets’ deficiencies. On smaller cartridges - smaller than .27 that is - bullets seem to not expand well or expand violently. That included 6mm, 25 caliber and 6.5 mm. If I wanted to shoot a bigger animal I went to a larger caliber. Eventually I acquired a 6.5, it was a 264 and in my opinion the screw machine partition was the one and only good bullet. Partitions were not available in smaller calibers. That was before or even during when a computer took a very large room and the closest thing to internet sales was Shotgun News. The local gun shops didn’t carry many different types of bullets. Norma bullets were not available where I shopped. Sierra bullets were available, but targets and varmints were their only game. I saw poorly performing 25 caliber bullets and the 6mm wasn’t any better. The Remington CL’s and the Winchester Silver tips were perhaps better than most. But even those bullets were only good in larger calibers. Actually, I don’t remember those bullets in less than 27 caliber. Sometimes, I’d try bullets when they came available, often to regret it. But perhaps the issue was I didn’t have a lot of loose change for testing bullets back then and all my bullet testing was on game. The writers seem to be more concerned with waxing over cartridges more so than bullets. The JOC’s 270 vs everyone else’s 30-06 and then JC’s 280 - the ‘deer cartridges’.
Eventually, I found that a 03 Springfield with 180 grain CL’s to be 100% effective on whitetail and used that combination for quite a while. So it was my favorite.
The 25’s have progressed to be very good cartridges for most game animals - because of bullet technology. In my opinion, TTSX’s & Partitions are the top of the class. But Hornady Interlocks are good on deer and antelope too. I’m sure there’s others, but all this is my opinion based on my experience. (Edit, come to think of it, I bought a box of 257 loaded ammo in the 60’s that was Remington CL’s)
I suppose JB’s grandmother placed her 257 bullets carefully. My grand mother had a 25 Remington pump. My oldest aunt talked about her game animals were sometimes the family meals. I also heard she was very careful in placing the bullets precisely.
I’m thinking the if Elmer was growing up in Idaho today he wouldn’t feel the need for the big heavy bullets.
Last edited by Bugger; 07/25/23.
I prefer classic. Semper Fi I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
I’m thinking the if Elmer was growing up in Idaho today he wouldn’t feel the need for the big heavy bullets.
I think it would depend on the presence of a JOC to piss him off. Not sure myself whether he believed everything he wrote or if two guys verbally jousting didn't play as much of a roll in their preferences as the actual practical differences did.
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
I’m thinking the if Elmer was growing up in Idaho today he wouldn’t feel the need for the big heavy bullets.
I think it would depend on the presence of a JOC to piss him off. Not sure myself whether he believed everything he wrote or if two guys verbally jousting didn't play as much of a roll in their preferences as the actual practical differences did.
I was more of an Elmer fan, myself. He went to the school of hard knocks. JOC seemed to have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth - at least that was my impression. Identifying with Elmer was much easier.
I prefer classic. Semper Fi I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
Great story MD. Your Grandmother sounds like she had plenty of grit... and ate well too with that 257R.
That deer I shot was kinda special to me. I had been away in the Navy for many years, mostly on the west coast and overseas. Persian Gulf, etc.... Being with HS buds in the north woods that I had grown up in was very special. I was thrilled to be there smelling the Thanksgiving-like air and the chilly mornings, leaves falling. It was a giant plus to bag a buck with the 257R, something I had dreamt about while laying in my rack aboard ships for long periods.
Us hunters aboard ship really coalesced. Found each other, swapped stories, dreamt. We traded hunting magazines, eagerly anticipated packages stuffed with hunting books and magazines. My dad would tape hunting shows on DVD and send them to us. One time I was in port overseas with a hunting bud that I had in the past hunted chukars with quite intensely. We were in the United Arab Emirates walking thru an open air market and came across these stacked crates full of chukars. We were pleasantly dumbfounded seeing them.
i knew an old World WAR 2 that was a heck of a good old woodsman who trap ,fished and hunted a lot , this old Harold never had much money never was married but he enjoyed life more than most folks . 50 some years ago one day after a hot day at work i stop in at the local Tavern for a couple of cold tasty beers and stood next to old Harold ,we all were B.S.`n plenty and the stories started about deer hunting and what cartridge the guys used then old Harold pulled out a 257 Roberts cartridge all was quiet for a moment . everyone knew old Harold was a great woodsman and one heck of a big buck slayer not one person argued about the cartridge Harold shot deer ,wolves ,bears ,coyotes with the 257 Roberts. i almost forgot this part with my grandparents , father in law and great uncles being soldiers in world war 2 and the Korean war all`s i ever heard was 30-06 for deer some a 30-30 so when old Harold showed me that 257 Roberts i was really puzzled ,but now looking back old Harold had a great old cartridge i now really like and have a 1/2 dozen or more rifles that use this fine cartridge for the family to use now ,the ladies and grandkids like the 257 Roberts because of the low recoil and myself too.
My paternal grandmother killed a pile of big game from pronghorns to elk with the original Winchester and Remington 117-grain RN factory load--which had the same 2650 fps MV--with the Remington 722 she was given by her second husband, who owned a hardware store in Denton, Montana. (My grandfather passed away during the Great Depression, and grandma waited almost 20 years before marrying again.)
She never handloaded, but did start shooting very early in life while growing up on a farm in southern Minnesota. After high school she homesteaded by herself in central Montana, and learned some stuff about shooting from Ed McGivern, the well-known author of Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, who also lived in Lewistown then. In fact, she eventually became superintendent of schools for Fergus County--and believe or not had McGivern perform shooting demonstrations for the high school. My father witnessed at least one, which if I recall correctly took place on the HS football field.
But my main point is it ain't so much what you shoot 'em with, but where you shoot 'em. Oh, and she never used a scope-sighted rifle in her lifetime....
As the ranch rifles were being swapped out from .30-30's to mostly pump-action .30-06's (post WWII), and Tasco 4x scopes started showing up My Aunt on the adjoining ranch led the way by putting one on her 722 Bob. When she demonstrated they wouldn't break then the ranch rifles started wearing those scopes too. And those rifles got seriously bumped around in the ranch trucks.
But the ammo never changed - Silvertip and Core-Lokt factory ammo.
It's you and the bullet, and all the rest is secondary.
I’m thinking the if Elmer was growing up in Idaho today he wouldn’t feel the need for the big heavy bullets.
I think it would depend on the presence of a JOC to piss him off. Not sure myself whether he believed everything he wrote or if two guys verbally jousting didn't play as much of a roll in their preferences as the actual practical differences did.
Originally Posted by T_O_M
Originally Posted by Bugger
I’m thinking the if Elmer was growing up in Idaho today he wouldn’t feel the need for the big heavy bullets.
I think it would depend on the presence of a JOC to piss him off. Not sure myself whether he believed everything he wrote or if two guys verbally jousting didn't play as much of a roll in their preferences as the actual practical differences did.
I think that the JOC, champion of higher velocity, verses EK, champion of heavier, larger bore, bullets is an illustration of different people who grew up in different places, under different circumstances, and had different experiences developed different perspective on what worked best FOR THEM. I never felt that JOC pushed his higher velocity agenda quite to the degree that EK push his agenda. I will say for the record that JOC was my preferred gun writer from circa 1964 until he passed even though his deer hunting experience in the contiguous 48 was all west of the Mississippi River and I grew up in NH.
I was more of an Elmer fan, myself. He went to the school of hard knocks. JOC seemed to have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth - at least that was my impression. Identifying with Elmer was much easier.
You might want to read O'Connor's 1969 book Horse and Buggy West, A Boyhood on the Last Frontier, an autobiography of his life growing up in Arizona--which was not nearly as "silver spoon" as you think. His mother and father got divorced when he was very young, but they did eventually move in with an attorney uncle, who apparently did pretty well. But O'Connor did not exactly grow up in the lap of luxury, and like many people had a hard time making ends meet for his wife Eleanor and their kids during the Great Depression. He was a teacher at a small college--which didn't pay very well, which is why he started writing for various magazines. The family hunted considerably, partly because the meat was also economically useful.
Can't remember where I got my used copy, but it's signed by O'Connor. "Reading" copies can be found on the Internet for around $50, though of course "collectible" copies sometimes go for $200 or more.
John
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Agreed, H&BW is a great read and, for a JOC fan, a must read to better understand the events that shaped the man. I didn't know what had happened to his son, Jerry, until I read H&BW, I just knew that JOC continued to write about his other son, Bradford, but Jerry just disappeared.
Age wise, JOC, who was born in 1902, and EK, who was born in 1899, were about as contemporary as they could have been, having grown up and lived through the same eras of World events. I kind of think of young JOC as more of a suburban kid and young EK as a rural ranch kid, each of them shaped by their different environments.
Agreed, H&BW is a great read and, for a JOC fan, a must read to better understand the events that shaped the man. I didn't know what had happened to his son, Jerry, until I read H&BW, I just knew that JOC continued to write about his other son, Bradford, but Jerry just disappeared.
Age wise, JOC, who was born in 1902, and EK, who was born in 1899, were about as contemporary as they could have been, having grown up and lived through the same eras of World events. I kind of think of young JOC as more of a suburban kid and young EK as a rural ranch kid, each of them shaped by their different environments.
Elmer wasn't educated and Jack was
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Agreed, H&BW is a great read and, for a JOC fan, a must read to better understand the events that shaped the man. I didn't know what had happened to his son, Jerry, until I read H&BW, I just knew that JOC continued to write about his other son, Bradford, but Jerry just disappeared.
Age wise, JOC, who was born in 1902, and EK, who was born in 1899, were about as contemporary as they could have been, having grown up and lived through the same eras of World events. I kind of think of young JOC as more of a suburban kid and young EK as a rural ranch kid, each of them shaped by their different environments.
Elmer wasn't educated and Jack was
True, but getting an education is often a choice in addition to being a circumstance and not having a formal education was not as much of an impediment to achievement then as it can be now.
According to H&BW, JOC's maternal Grandfather was quite affluent, but his affluence doesn't seem to have been shared with JOC's Mother to any great degree. JOC's Father doesn't seem to have been much of a presence in or influence on his life.
Yep, which is why I periodically reread books by both of 'em--especially Hell, I was There! and Horse and Buggy West.
Hell, I Was There! is the reason that I look closely at every 1st Model Newton that I come across, hoping to find EK's 256 Newton. EK felt that the 256 Newton was too light for hunting game, even though it is, performance wise, about identical to the currently very popular 6.5 Creedmoor.
I always thought that their differences of opinion were more based on the conditions they hunted than anything else. Elmer where he hunted mostly dark timber and Jack in the way more open Arizona desert and high country. All this brought to mind of a commercial many years ago when about the only form of cable TV was HBO. We had that for a few years then all of a sudden HBO said screw you and shut everyone down in Tucson. However, that commercial was only seen a few times on HBO. What was shown was shaky film of people rafting down some river and later a camp In that camp was this dude with a big old cowboy hat chopping firewood. About the third time I saw it I realized that, Hey! that's Elmer chopping that wood. The whole scene was short, maybe 20 to 30 seconds at best so there must have been a documentary or something made of Keith's rafting experience. I would very much like finding a copy of that entire film. The picture of Keith's rafting are in Hell, I Was There and have to have come from that movie/documentary. PJ
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them. MOLON LABE
As a youngster, I loved to read both Elmer and JOC articles. They were both showmen to an extent, entertainers who loved what they did and knew how to tell their stories. It makes me wonder how much of the "angst" they generated, one against the other, wasn't part of their act. Ole Charlie Askins was a master at that. It seemed to sell a lot of copy, which was the bottom line, the game they knew well and played with great skill.
And, we were entertained, still here talking about them after they have left the scene.
That's in itself an achievement, a testament to one's existence and time spent here on this planet.
May they rest in peace as we continue to enjoy the fruit of their labor.
for our 257 Roberts reloaded ammo to deer hunt this 2023 fall deer season we will be using 75 gr. Hammer Hunter bullets with Reloader 17 powder at 3100-3200 FPS. have got great accuracy and consistent groups, but have not killed any deer yet with this 75 gr. bullet .
Look forward to terminal performance with the Hammer.
I like what I saw with the 178 gr Shock Hammer out of a .358 Win on a WT chest. Core exit with 6 satellite exits, 360* around the core. Pretty impressive, quick kill.
DF
the 3 animals i shot with the Hammer Hunter last fall 2022 the 103 gr. 25 caliber out of my Weatherby mag did well so i expect the 75 gr. Hammer Hunter will do well too ?
Here's another interesting bullet, the Lehigh 160 gr. Extreme Chaos. Bill Wilson bought Lehigh, moved the plant to E. TX where his ranch is and where he hunts hogs. Quite a story.
Here's a YouTube piece on this bullet out of a .308 at modest velocity.
Does anyone have original source writing on the 257 Roberts from Ned? I’ve never come across his writing. I am assuming that was part of how the cartridge got out into the public? I have heard the story of it being slightly modified by the folks at Remington to bring it out commercially. Curious what the writers of the time had to say when it was first a wildcat. It is interesting how the bullet improvements have added to the legitimacy of the smaller rounds even in the eyes of some who were not interested from past experience.
I used to only shoot shotguns and rimfires, then I made the mistake of getting a subscription to handloader.......
Does anyone have original source writing on the 257 Roberts from Ned? I’ve never come across his writing. I am assuming that was part of how the cartridge got out into the public? I have heard the story of it being slightly modified by the folks at Remington to bring it out commercially. Curious what the writers of the time had to say when it was first a wildcat. It is interesting how the bullet improvements have added to the legitimacy of the smaller rounds even in the eyes of some who were not interested from past experience.
Great information, Thanks! Mathman, I will reference 6mm Remington data as you suggest. If I can get a 101 gr Barnes bullet to 3100 fps or close out of a 22” barrel, I’ll be very happy. Next I’ll be bugging you guys about the 250 Savage.
In like vein, some manuals list data for the 6.5x57 which would give you another valuable data point in researching load data for your 257.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
I have some info from Ned Roberts' later writing, which is very interesting. Don't feel like posting it tonight, but will tomorrow.
John, any follow on with this. I’m interested in the original source writing from Mr Roberts that got the spark lit on the 257R.
It's from Ned Robert's book Big Game Hunting, published in 1947. He developed the cartridge in the 1920s by necking down the 7x57--but a more sloping shoulder, which back then was considered better than a sharper shoulder. When Remington adopted it as a factory round in the 1930s, they used the 7x57's shoulder angle.
Back then the slowest-burning powder available was probably IMR 4064. By the time Roberts published his book IMR 4350 had been around for seven years, and he decided to see what it would do in Remington's version of his round. Here's the quote from his book:
"We can hand-load the cartridge with 48 grains weight of DuPont I.M.R. #4350 powder and the 100-grain O.P. [open-point] bullet to give 3400 ft. sec. muzzle velocity... The cartridge hand-loaded with 47 grains of I.M.R. #4350 and 117-grin O.P. or S.P. [soft-point] bullet gives 3000 ft. sec. muzzle velocity; by using 45 grains weight I.M.R. #4350 powder and the 125 grains Barnes S.P. bullet we get 2,900 ft. dec, muzzle velocity."
Now, pressure-tested data from that era, such as that found in Phil Sharpe's book Complete Guide to Handloading does not show charges anywhere near those for similar bullets, no doubt due to using the SAAMI pressure for the .257 Roberts, which is pretty mild. So obviously Ned Roberts was still doing a little "wildcatting' with his handloads. And Sharpe's data is very similar to today's non-+P data, so I doubt IMR 4350 changed significantly.
Years ago I pushed beyond the standard .257 Roberts data for IMR 4350 with couple of 100-grain bullets, working up to 47.5 grains for around 3250 from the 24" barrel of the Remington 722 inherited from my paternal grandmother. There were none of the traditional indications of high pressure, such as hard bolt lift, ejector-hole marks on the case head, etc.--but Sharpe reported 3400 fps from a very similar load. So I wonder about the barrel length of Roberts' rifle, which he doesn't mention.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I have seen notes that say Ned wrote for Magazines of the day. It would be interesting to read the writers take in that time frame. Thanks for the follow up. Probably need to get on the WWW and find a copy of his book to start.
I used to only shoot shotguns and rimfires, then I made the mistake of getting a subscription to handloader.......
"Reading" copies, as opposed to "collectible" copies can be found for very reasonable prices. Can't remember where I got mine--it was a while ago--but it's an interesting book. Roberts hunted mostly for deer and black bear, because he was from New Hampshire and mostly hunted in that region--but also hunted caribou.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I’ve heard that there New Hampshire actually has a type of elk. A friend of mine gets invited to a very exclusive preserve up there and apparently there are elk there.
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