Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles 6 ARC, 223 Wilde or 6.5 Grendel

500 yard steel match 3", 5" and 8" steel circles, 10 shots in four minutes. I have loads using the 75 grain Hornady BTHP that shoot MOA in the Wilde it being a M4 barrel contour I can't expect much better. My current Grendel upper is configured the same and shoots about the same. So the plan is to order a heavier 20 inch barrel in one of the above choices. Another choice is my 700 Remington but it gives it's best accuracy with bullets that will not fit in the magazine and at 24 seconds a shot I don't think I am good enough to single load and shoot it fast enough with accuracy. Will most likely use LVR for a powder, any bullets that might prove to be best for this match?

What’s the Remington chambered in? Could a rebarrel be worth it or mag mods to the 700 rather than building the AR platform?

Not too many guys answering your question. Personally I'd be looking at better than "moa" and probably even a different rifle. Also, when you say "moa", is that for 3, 5 or 10 shots? For a shoot like the one you are describing, I'd be looking for sub moa (3/4 at minimum and 1/2 moa would be even better) for 10 shots. You'll need that type of precision to ring the smaller steel plates at 500 yards. Keeping in mind a 3" target is slightly smaller than .6 moa at that distance.

The 2 rifles I'm thinking of would be a Tikka CTR chambered in 6.5 creedmoor, or an AR10 chambered for the same cartridge. From experience shooting at 500 yards, I'd want that higher bc pill from the 6.5 and good ballistics. A fast 6mm (6GT for example) would be great as well and have an edge over the creedmoor. However, those are not on your list.

With the CTR and a 10 round box magazine, it would be very easy to make those shots in the time allotment you have described. You don't need an AR platform for that, but you do need the mag capacity to help with time, rather than single feeding.

To give you an idea, here are some 500 yard targets for reference. Also, I'm showing paper targets because those do not lie. They tell the whole/real story:



If you look at the outliers, you will see if I would have been just shooting at a 3" target at 500 yards, my hit ratio would be about 60%. If that would have been a 5" plate, the ratio goes up to 90%. An 8" plate would be 100%. That target was shot with a S&W M&P10 Performance Center 6.5 creedmoor.

My Tikka CTR would have been roughly the same because of my poor wind call:


50% hit ratio for a 3" target, 80% for a 5" target and 100% for an 8" target.

What it is going to boil down to is what rifle shoots best for you. Personally I would not use a slow Grendal or slow 6mm, and the reports of precision for the 6 ARC in the AR platform have not been stellar. That leaves you with the old tried and true 223 rem, out of the choices you give. However, I would not use the bullet you mentioned. They just don't shoot as well (IMHO) as a good SMK or TMK. 69 or 77gr pills. I know, others may argue, but I'd love to see their honest 500 yard targets.

Another thing is, how fierce is the competition? Is it a bunch of old club members or a fun day with the buddies out for some grudge matches? Or are you going to get some shooters from the big city clubs that shoot F class or highpower? For as many guys that claim to shoot at distance here, you sure are not getting a lot of responses. Good luck with your shoot. It would be cool if you would post pictures of your rifles capabilities at 500 yards, that would make it easier for us to discern which would be best to use. Hopefully you have some time to get it figured out.

Definitely a bunch of old club members. we are all over 60 if that is old to you. For sure neither of the M4 contour carbines would fill the bill. I have two Heavy contoured 20" 223 uppers that shoot pretty good, better than MOA but not much better with 10 shots (most of the time) I being the limiting factor. Possibly I should try the bullets you mentioned. I have some property where I can set up targets out to 600 yards so I certainly have a leg up on the competition. I wanted to use a cartridge that would not heat the barrel up too much shooting a shot every 24 seconds and that I could see my impacts. I do have a M700 in 260 Remington that is a tackdriver but the barrel contour is similar to the 24 inch Remington sporter contour and I figure it would not pass the heating up issue. The rifle mentioned previously is a 308 with a varmint contour barrel that I figure could stand 10 shots in 4 minutes. Possibly that rifle with a bottom metal change would be my best choice. You can shoot the ten shots at any of the three targets and the 8 inch target is one point, the five inch is two points and the 3 inch target is 3 points. It seems easy enough......

When you say 3 shots, 5 shots or ten shots inside of MOA my answer depends on how fast I am shooting. And my strategy would be to get the wind on the 8" target and then hammer the 5" target. If I have to cycle a bolt action and get my finger back on the trigger I figure that would knock several seconds off my time available for the next shot. In fact I am going outside right now and burn some ammo on my 200 yard range set up. The bench is 50 feet from my front door.

It rained yesterday so there is no way to get into the property that I can shoot that far for a day or so without getting stuck. Serious mudhole, plowed fields.

Good stuff Rick. My best suggestion is to shoot some rifles side by side in the same conditions. I do that all the time to make unbiased comparisons. The targets will tell the real story. I was just doing that, the other day, with my new to me 308win, one of my 6.5 creedmoors (with 147 ELDM) and my fast twist 22-250 (with 88 ELDM). The creed whooped some azz, and honestly I had very high hopes for the Winchester model 70 308 using 175 SMK's. When doing those side by comparisons, I'd look at things like wind drift, or how the wind affects the accuracy of the bullets and also group size. When I say "winds", I also mean head winds and tail winds as well, because those also have an effect on POI..

No brainer...............6mm ARC.

500 yards isn't really long & trajectory isn't an issue, but the 6mm has a little more than half the wind drift as the 75 gr 223 Wylde at that range.

Kinda just depends on what you want & need in your stable.

The 224 Valkyrie with 88's is very similar to the 6mm ARC as well.

Don't cheap out on the barrel either..................if you're not in a big hurry, a Rock Creek button rifled barrel from Craddock Precision is still fairly reasonably priced; if you want a bit longer accuracy life for about 30% more $$$. step up to the cut rifled version of the Rock Creek barrel.

Or an off the shelf barrel from White Oak will also suffice for about the same as the RC button, maybe a tad less........I haven't checked exact prices in the last couple of months.

I have both in 223 Wylde & the 2 RC's that I have from Craddock get a very little edge over 3 or 4 that I have from WOA. Very slight.

JMHO & 2 cents.

MM

Well I forgot to mention this match is fired from prone. I put a 10 power SWFA on the AR, new from the last sale. turrets stiff at first but all went well. Took me a bit to get my rear bag set right and I also had to put together a front rest that worked for me prone. This led to a lot of getting down and getting up. Also had three discs replaced in my neck a few years ago and that required using a lower scope mount of which I had a Leupy one piece laying around. But the shooting went real well, didn't adjust for wind just to see what it was doing to my POI. Got it lined up pretty quick and was happy with a total group of 11 shots into 3 inches strung left to right. But then I went to my 308. Very good trigger, stock that works much better for me and another 10 power SWFA on top. Shot four shots almost touching in a left to right line. I quit because by then the unenjoyment of neck, shoulder, knee and wrist pain was taking it's toll. The 308 has a good bipod on it and that made things much easier. Still if I have to single load 10 shots in four minutes is out of the question. I will work on getting used to shooting prone but won't make the May shoot. Think I will find a magazine setup that holds 10 rounds in the interim. Which one will give me the longest COAL?

Checked out the Craddock Precision site. Longest 6ARC barrel is 18 inches long and I would like to go at least 20 with rifle length gas. White Oak 6 ARC barrels are all 26".

Take the 18" & don't look back; those 500 yd targets will never know the difference.

An 18" w/rifle gas & fluted should come in right about 32-33 oz in an SPR contour & will handle like a dream.

MM

Craddock will sell you a 22 inch Bartlein in 6 arc if that is your jam. They're big heavy bastards. But montanaman is right, an 18 inch 6 arc barrel should be plenty for anything you want to do at 500 yds.

I'd love to see how your 6 Arc rifles are doing at 500 yards. Can you guys post some pics?

Spring just sprung in my neck of the woods. I'll get some tgt's once I get a little time away from the man.. 6 ARC is the easy button if you're not using a 5.56 in my opinion. 30 dollar a box ammo that'll shoot real darned well in an AR or Bolt hunt.

You could get off 10 shots in 70 seconds by single loading with a little practice. I've seen it done.

I expect the OPs neck issues would impact that.

The F Troop guys can really machine gun their shots out, single loading, when the feel they have their condition.

Thanks Scotty. I'm glad you commented. As I was thinking about this thread yesterday, I was thinking about you and your 223 CTR. If you think the 6 ARC in an ar will outshoot your CTR, I'll believe you. Again, 3" targets at 500 yards. I shoot 2" targets at 400 on a continual basis and know a 3" target at 500 is not as easy as some guys make it out to be. The reason I asked for some target pics. Not talking about steel plate either because you have no idea how many shots were sent downrange. A nice big piece of paper tells a better story. Or even a standard 8 1/2x11 sheet of paper like I post a lot.. I've posted some good 3 shot groups at 400 on steel even, like the yote I like shooting at. Take this one for example:


Hell of a good group (about 3/4"), but would have missed a 3" target. You really have to buckle down and know how to deal with the wind, to make consistent shots on a small target at that distance. I look forward to seeing some target pics posted where some of you guys can consistently keep them inside a 3" circle, at 500 yards.

Rest assured if I hit the 3 inch target with one of three shots at 500 yards I would have to open a Yuengling lager to celebrate! Especially from prone.

3" targets at 500 would be great shooting for me honestly.

I'd give it a run with my CTR 223 if I had the chance as well. That rifle just plain makes some stuff easy.

The CTR is the one Tikka I would like to buy, though not in 223.

Low and behold turns out that us old creaky types can use shooting benches! Going with the 308 if it is not too late to sign in.