Home Forums Reloading Bullet Casting Flat nose vs cup point

I bought 3 new molds from M&P a few months back and I'm finally getting around to using them. They came with 4 sets of pins each, hp, penta hp, flat nose, and cup point. I'm going to make some bullets for bear defense. Usually I just go for a wide flat nose cast on the harder side. Now I'm thinking a bit of expansion might not be a bad thing. I'm wondering about using the cup point and if the bullets will travel straight line and if the cup point has any downside.

I'm thinking of trying for about a bhn of 15. The molds are a 420g for my 45/70 guide gun, a 44 cal 270 g hammer, and a .452 230g for my acp's and maybe my colts. Although I really like my 252g Lee swc in the colts. We have a lot of grizzlies where I bow hunt and where we pick berries. So, cup point or flat nose?

Bb

Some…..OK many, may not agree with me, but flat point. My concern is the “cup” bullet will open and negatively affect penetration! JMO. memtb

Flat point

A lot question the concept of the soft nose/dual alloy bullets I use, especially when the expansion part can be done with one alloy.

If I wanted something to expand a bit and still have straight penetration, that's what has worked for me. The bases will "shoot through" the softer nose or keep trucking after the expansion has done its job as long as there's 3/4 or so heat treated shank there. Softer single alloy stuff can rivet and penetration goes down.

But I see lots of 4's in the calibers, so the expansion part is already in the frontal area and you're not shooting featherweight stuff either. Go solid and make things simple, IMO.

I've never had to arm myself against possible bear targets, and likely never will. What Mr. Hawk here says rings true to me though. I think if putting myself in harm's way I would keep things simple and go with a solid wide flat nose of an alloy modulated to achieve an effective compromise between soft and hard. Faced with a pissed off grizzly while berry picking I dare say no matter what gun you're holding in your hand will feel big enough anyway, I suppose.

I cast some cup points out of my softest alloy the other day and will powder coat them in a few days and run the through some water filled milk jugs. I think they'll weigh about 410g but I haven't put them one the scale yet. I got this lead from rmr and their claiming it's a bhn of 10 or so.

I have lots of monotype so I can harden it up if needed. I'm hoping for expansion to about a body diameter of .460 and I'm going to load them about 1500-1600fps from my marlin guide gun. Should be interesting figuring the right mix out. I like the looks of the cup point but I'll have to see how it performs. I'm starting with my softest alloy and moving up from there.

Bb

Burley,

If you have some tin or silver to add to get the hardness up slightly it will improve the shape of the cavitation because both will increase ductility of the alloy.

With the alloy you have, maybe go another 1-20 and see if you can get it to 12BHN; you may get nice furled back mushrooms.

Adding mono will definitely get it to 15, but the crystalline nature of antimony will make the cavitation by powdering down and less weight retention, not a classic mushroom. This is especially true if antimony percentage is greater than tin and the impact speed.

Either way you are going to have expansion and greater cavitation, it just depends on what you are happy with.

cup point would by my pick

Flat.


I'd be concerned the cupped bullet would easily deform on one side it it hits bone.
That would almost guarantee changing course, and/or reducing penetration.

I'm of the opinion with handguns, even the magnums, for bear defense you don't want to give up any penetration for expansion because they just don't have a surplus of power. I'd be on the fence with the 45-70 but still lean towards the flat point.

Now if you're loading for a true magnum rifle, 338, 375, 416 or 458 then I'd go for an expanding bullet because you have enough power to penetrate from any angle and produce a large wound channel.

Flat and hard.
I do not worry much about expansion. I shoot a real hard alloy, water dropped, and double powder coated, flat points for pistols and rifles, with a plain base. Big hogs and bears take penetration with good accuracy both.

finally found a pic of a cup point (aka dish)
still penetrates awesomely and expands just a bit for that extra oomph