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It's happening. The DWR is taking away scopes of more than 1x for all muzzleloading hunts. Red Dot and 1x will still be allowed. Who makes a very good 1x "SCOPE" that can be dialed up with the elevation turret? Maybe a reticle for holdovers? Again, very good with clear glass!!!

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That sucks. Did they do anything with smokeless muzzleloaders?

Leupold made a 1x Prism scope with a turret but they're discontinued. In general, 1x scopes suck. I'd probably go with an Aimpoint or similar.

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Im sure somebody will contract a chinese company for one LOL

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what about the Primary Arms 1x prismatic?


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Originally Posted by GreatWaputi
That sucks. Did they do anything with smokeless muzzleloaders?

Leupold made a 1x Prism scope with a turret but they're discontinued. In general, 1x scopes suck. I'd probably go with an Aimpoint or similar.

Smokeless and any optic can still be used during "any weapon" hunts.

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Originally Posted by jimmyp
what about the Primary Arms 1x prismatic?

Searched "prismatic" on the PA website = nothing.

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Originally Posted by GSSP
Originally Posted by jimmyp
what about the Primary Arms 1x prismatic?

Searched "prismatic" on the PA website = nothing.
https://www.primaryarms.com/rifle-scopes/brand/primary-arms/focal-plane/prism-scope

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"Yeah, let's just make it easier for hunters to wound an animal that they are going to shoot at anyway". WTF

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Originally Posted by GSSP
Originally Posted by GreatWaputi
That sucks. Did they do anything with smokeless muzzleloaders?

Leupold made a 1x Prism scope with a turret but they're discontinued. In general, 1x scopes suck. I'd probably go with an Aimpoint or similar.

Smokeless and any optic can still be used during "any weapon" hunts.

Why would anyone use a smokeless weapon during an any weapon hunt? Is it a draw thing that would put you in with archers and rifle hunters at the same time?

Also there is a 1x Nightforce on eBay for 1450$ which is double what it should cost but for the guy in need it's there.


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Played with a few 1x scopes years ago when that was all that was legal here. If I had to go back to that I’d just get a red dot with the smallest dot I could.

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Originally Posted by Triggernosis
"Yeah, let's just make it easier for hunters to wound an animal that they are going to shoot at anyway". WTF

It's only been maybe three or four years that Utah has allowed scopes other than 1x on muzzleloaders. Smokeless muzzleloaders are also new there.

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Looks to me like no scopes at all during ML seasons red dot or otherwise. A lot of states are going this way. I have a buddy with a crazy custom everything ML that dropped a NM bull at like 700 yards. No NM is banning scopes as well.

I think, right or wrong, LR mls killed the scope for the rest of us and I expect more optic bans across the western states.

This is what is saw on line for UT

“No scopes would be allowed on muzzleloaders for muzzleloader hunts. This would include general season muzzleloader hunts, limited entry muzzleloader hunts, management muzzleloader hunts and HAMMS hunts. “

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Good. A ML is supposed to be a primitive weapon. Fine rule!

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Originally Posted by GSSP
Who makes a very good 1x "SCOPE" that can be dialed up with the elevation turret? Maybe a reticle for holdovers? Again, very good with clear glass!!!

Alan


That’s why they banned them in the first place.

More game agencies should do it across the west, and they should start chipping away at compound bows too. Archery season was never meant to include 80 yard shots.


Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.


Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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Use a 1-6x24 and leave it on 1x. Damn simple.

Just cause a car can go 120 doesn't mean it's illegal to drive it in a 35 mph zone

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Just use iron sights. I think that would be pretty easy.

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Originally Posted by KenMi
Use a 1-6x24 and leave it on 1x. Damn simple.

Just cause a car can go 120 doesn't mean it's illegal to drive it in a 35 mph zone


Not sure that would fly with any of the game wardens I have ever met, which is thankfully only a few.

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Originally Posted by Triggernosis
"Yeah, let's just make it easier for hunters to wound an animal that they are going to shoot at anyway". WTF

That will always be the case, regardless of any weapon or rule. People don't care about their personal limits....

I love the rule and I hunt muzzie Utah frequently. Anything that allows me to better out-hunt the public rather than be outtechnologied I am all in favor for. That's where the difference lies anyway. It just gets wider with this rule....


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I tried a few 1x scopes. I didn't care for them. I find more precise aiming with peep sights.

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Game management decision? Perhaps they looked at the harvests and decided to cut back a bit.

Do you have to draw for a ML tag? Here it’s part of the Sportsmans or Senior license.

Tough break for someone that purchased a gun with no sights based on the prior regs.


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Originally Posted by Pappy348
Game management decision? Perhaps they looked at the harvests and decided to cut back a bit.

Do you have to draw for a ML tag? Here it’s part of the Sportsmans or Senior license.

Tough break for someone that purchased a gun with no sights based on the prior regs.
Yeah, only takes 20+ years for most ml tags.

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Originally Posted by KenMi
Use a 1-6x24 and leave it on 1x. Damn simple.

Just cause a car can go 120 doesn't mean it's illegal to drive it in a 35 mph zone
Darn simple, that’s illegal!

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Originally muzzle loading season was created to let people hunt like their forefathers back in the flintlock and cap lock era of 1750 up to the civil war without competing with Hi powered rifle. There were limited licenses and people wanted to experience that. Today it's just another F__king hunting season. One more chance to put more meat in the freezer. It's Little more than a single shot center fire rifle without a cartridge case.

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Originally Posted by MickinColo
Originally muzzle loading season was created to let people hunt like their forefathers back in the flintlock and cap lock era of 1750 up to the civil war without competing with Hi powered rifle. There were limited licenses and people wanted to experience that. Today it's just another F__king hunting season. One more chance to put more meat in the freezer. It's Little more than a single shot center fire rifle without a cartridge case.
Exactly. Glad to see this.

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This is like a rehash of the crossbow discussion. The real reason special seasons are created is to sell licenses and provide hunting opportunities with limited effect on game numbers, not fulfill pioneer fantasies. No one is preventing anyone from using their old-timey guns or bows as they please. I started with a TC Hawken around 1980, before Maryland had a ML season, and because I considered it a superior tool as opposed to the smoothbore slug guns we were limited to where I hunted. We have a short sidelock and stickbow season here in January and weather permitting, I’ll be out there with my “new” Greyhawk or PH 1858 Enfield. I’ve been snowed out a couple of times. PA started with a Flintlock season years ago, and has added an “open class hunt” since. Seems to work.

20 years for a tag is just nuts. Maybe they’ll free some up after the smoke clears under the new rules. That would be a good thing, and a good tradeoff. The West seems to be getting tougher and tougher to hunt. I’ve got three down and IIRC I can still take five more if I wanted to and was lucky enough. Only one more buck though.


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You really have to understand how special a limited entry deer or elk tag is in Utah. This isn’t Pennsylvania! It’s a dream tag for most. Worth $10k+ in a lot of cases if you compare it to similar landowner, Expo, or outfitted hunts. Because of this passions run high. To maintain the quality of these hunts, to be worth the wait, something had to be done! Can’t control the extreme weather conditions affecting the herds, so the state has to use the things they can control to manage objectives.

ML hunts were originally designed to bridge the difficulty gap between archery and rifle seasons and were given season dates and better draw odds accordingly. They had harvest objectives which allowed for so many tags. With the original 1x scope limit, this worked fine. Then along came these custom ML’s shooting 209, a 215 primer, ridiculous speeds, with scopes with turrets and nearly every bit of the capability of a magnum centerfire round. I know of several deer and elk shot at 5-800 yards with these things. That’s not a limited or primitive weapon at all. Harvest objectives went out the window. They were just too lethal, and deemed unfair given favorable season dates.

So here we are: if you want to shoot a ML you gotta use one that fits with the original intent and conforms to management objectives. The real hunters I know, even the ones who spent $5k+ to build these fancy ML’s, all understand. It was never right to begin with.

Imo, I like Idaho. Exposed ignition only. Make ML hunting ML hunting!

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Here in Montana we didn't even have a special muzzleloader season until very recently, though a few Wildlife Management Areas that don't allow cartridge rifles did allow them. Other than those small small areas you could use muzzleloaders of basically any type during the standard rifle season.

A couple years ago the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Department did initiate a short "heritage" muzzleloader season in the middle of December:

"During this season, subject to the provisions of 87-6-401( 1) and rules adopted by the commission, a person may take a deer or elk with a valid license or permit using plain lead projectiles and a muzzleloading rifle that is charged with loose black powder, loose pyrodex, or an equivalent loose black powder substitute, and ignited bya flintlock, wheel lock, matchlock, or percussion mechanism using a percussion or musket cap. The muzzleloading rifle must be a minimum of .45 caliber and may not have more than two barrels.


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Originally Posted by Pappy348
The real reason special seasons are created is to sell licenses and provide hunting opportunities with limited effect on game numbers, not fulfill pioneer fantasies. No one is preventing anyone from using their old-timey guns or bows as they please.


The first is untrue and the second irrelevant. Oregon's ML season was created only after substantial lobbying by a group of traditional ML shooters. It was PRECISELY intended to "fulfill pioneer fantasies", as you put it. (I think of it more as Jeremiah Johnson fantasies, not pioneers.)

Let the modern ML shooters continue to hunt regular season with the centerfire rifles instead of spoiling the ML season for the people whose efforts brought those seasons into being. Nothin' like carpetbaggers trying to get in on someone else's "deal" and wreck it for everyone including the people who actually did the work, put in the time and effort to show up to hearings, etc.

Tom


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Here be dragons ...
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Originally Posted by KenMi
Use a 1-6x24 and leave it on 1x. Damn simple.

Just cause a car can go 120 doesn't mean it's illegal to drive it in a 35 mph zone

Did you read the part about scopes with more than 1x being illegal?

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Originally Posted by T_O_M
Originally Posted by Pappy348
The real reason special seasons are created is to sell licenses and provide hunting opportunities with limited effect on game numbers, not fulfill pioneer fantasies. No one is preventing anyone from using their old-timey guns or bows as they please.


The first is untrue and the second irrelevant. Oregon's ML season was created only after substantial lobbying by a group of traditional ML shooters. It was PRECISELY intended to "fulfill pioneer fantasies", as you put it. (I think of it more as Jeremiah Johnson fantasies, not pioneers.)

Let the modern ML shooters continue to hunt regular season with the centerfire rifles instead of spoiling the ML season for the people whose efforts brought those seasons into being. Nothin' like carpetbaggers trying to get in on someone else's "deal" and wreck it for everyone including the people who actually did the work, put in the time and effort to show up to hearings, etc.

Tom

That may be true where you are, but not here. In this region, whitetails are like rats, and due to various reason, lack of access being a big one, they just can’t kill enough of them.


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You get TWO barrels? We only get one, and can’t even use underhammer guns.


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Originally Posted by GSSP
It's happening. The DWR is taking away scopes of more than 1x for all muzzleloading hunts. Red Dot and 1x will still be allowed. Who makes a very good 1x "SCOPE" that can be dialed up with the elevation turret? Maybe a reticle for holdovers? Again, very good with clear glass!!!

Alan

It looks like you are missing the point. Which is to get closer.

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Originally Posted by GreatWaputi
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
"Yeah, let's just make it easier for hunters to wound an animal that they are going to shoot at anyway". WTF

It's only been maybe three or four years that Utah has allowed scopes other than 1x on muzzleloaders. Smokeless muzzleloaders are also new there.

You are wrong on one point.......smokeless muzzleloaders have never been allowed in Utah. I had to buy $150 a pound Blackhorn last year so that my hi powered Leupold scope could fail on the last day of the hunt

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Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Good. A ML is supposed to be a primitive weapon. Fine rule!

It's been that way in Oregon for ever. Guys that use these, should be familiar with iron sights anyway. Some guys in Oregon chose muzzle loader season because they run into more bulls during the rut. The season is also much longer than the regular rifle season. The tags are also easier to get in the controlled hunt areas. I used to kill many a jackrabbit with muzzle loaders out in the desert. Some of these guys need to quit their biotching and get out and practice more.


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I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Originally Posted by GSSP
It's happening. The DWR is taking away scopes of more than 1x for all muzzleloading hunts. Red Dot and 1x will still be allowed. Who makes a very good 1x "SCOPE" that can be dialed up with the elevation turret? Maybe a reticle for holdovers? Again, very good with clear glass!!!

Alan

It looks like you are missing the point. Which is to get closer.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vBpGFgQkSs5mc1pp6

15 yds close enough for you?!!!! I like to be able to use the tools out there and which are available. I get the point. I don't mind getting closer. I like close! Worked in the Archery industry for some years. I know close! I prefer to be more precise and that means if I want to take a 100, 200 or 300 yd shot, dialing 0, 2.7 or 5.8 moa with a muzzleloader then damn it, that's my choice. At my age, i'm not sure open sights will work. I'm sure I'll find out. Wanted to find out if anyone knew of any 1x "scopes". Not turn this into some traditional vs modern MZ dick wagging contest.

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Originally Posted by GSSP
Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Originally Posted by GSSP
It's happening. The DWR is taking away scopes of more than 1x for all muzzleloading hunts. Red Dot and 1x will still be allowed. Who makes a very good 1x "SCOPE" that can be dialed up with the elevation turret? Maybe a reticle for holdovers? Again, very good with clear glass!!!

Alan

It looks like you are missing the point. Which is to get closer.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vBpGFgQkSs5mc1pp6

15 yds close enough for you?!!!! I like to be able to use the tools out there and which are available. I get the point. I don't mind getting closer. I like close! Worked in the Archery industry for some years. I know close! I prefer to be more precise and that means if I want to take a 100, 200 or 300 yd shot, dialing 0, 2.7 or 5.8 moa with a muzzleloader then damn it, that's my choice. At my age, i'm not sure open sights will work. I'm sure I'll find out. Wanted to find out if anyone knew of any 1x "scopes". Not turn this into some traditional vs modern MZ dick wagging contest.

Only such scopes I know of are the 1x prisms like the Primary Arms Cyclops. They’re compact and generally lighter than regular scopes. The view through them isn’t tinted like red dots and they can be focused to your vision. Eye relief is limited, just like a scope, and they’re generally illuminated. Most have ranging marks, but how well they’d work with a ML I can’t say, as most are designed for .223.


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Thank goodness at least that season can get back to hunting vs shooting.

I usually draw a general ML tag every other year and have been successful the last four hunts. I shoot t/c encore with a 50 cal Bergara barrel 2x7 vortex viper. It usually is about 2 moa. Only one of those shots was over 80 yards.

Glad I didn’t get rid of the 1x Nikon that I had on it earlier.

I’ll will probably give a 1x prismatic scope a try at the range this spring.

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Originally Posted by KenMi
Use a 1-6x24 and leave it on 1x. Damn simple.

Just cause a car can go 120 doesn't mean it's illegal to drive it in a 35 mph zone

Try that and get back to us. Or take an unplugged shotgun on a waterfowl hunt but only put three shells in it.


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Originally Posted by harrierwood
Thank goodness at least that season can get back to hunting vs shooting.

I usually draw a general ML tag every other year and have been successful the last four hunts. I shoot t/c encore with a 50 cal Bergara barrel 2x7 vortex viper. It usually is about 2 moa. Only one of those shots was over 80 yards.

Glad I didn’t get rid of the 1x Nikon that I had on it earlier.

I’ll will probably give a 1x prismatic scope a try at the range this spring.

Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Pappy348
Originally Posted by GSSP
Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Originally Posted by GSSP
It's happening. The DWR is taking away scopes of more than 1x for all muzzleloading hunts. Red Dot and 1x will still be allowed. Who makes a very good 1x "SCOPE" that can be dialed up with the elevation turret? Maybe a reticle for holdovers? Again, very good with clear glass!!!

Alan

It looks like you are missing the point. Which is to get closer.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vBpGFgQkSs5mc1pp6

15 yds close enough for you?!!!! I like to be able to use the tools out there and which are available. I get the point. I don't mind getting closer. I like close! Worked in the Archery industry for some years. I know close! I prefer to be more precise and that means if I want to take a 100, 200 or 300 yd shot, dialing 0, 2.7 or 5.8 moa with a muzzleloader then damn it, that's my choice. At my age, i'm not sure open sights will work. I'm sure I'll find out. Wanted to find out if anyone knew of any 1x "scopes". Not turn this into some traditional vs modern MZ dick wagging contest.

Only such scopes I know of are the 1x prisms like the Primary Arms Cyclops. They’re compact and generally lighter than regular scopes. The view through them isn’t tinted like red dots and they can be focused to your vision. Eye relief is limited, just like a scope, and they’re generally illuminated. Most have ranging marks, but how well they’d work with a ML I can’t say, as most are designed for .223.

Thank you!

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TC used to have a 1x rifle scope for such regulations.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1009749095

Might have been made by Simmons ( ugh ).

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Holosun 407c would be ideal, just need a front weaver single slot base and the picatinny mount for the holosun and I was banging 10” gongs at 400 with a Grendel bit long ago with 2’ to 30” hold over. 300 was a piece of cake, fist size groups holding bottom of dot on top of gong. You make a decal up for your 25 yard holds out to 400 and all set. They are a different league than irons as you can see underneath the dot which allows easier hold overs. No batteries required solar. Would be perfect for the muzzie

Forgot to add the 2 moa dot on rifle eye relief is more like 3.8 moa. Means if it fits in kill zone pull trigger, if not then start moving up.

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Never used a scope on a muzzleloader, back in the day PA only had a Primitive Muzzleloader season, iron sights and flintlocks


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This brings up the whole technology discussion. NM went scope less ML’s this year. I hunt ML quite a bit and don’t like it, but I’ll make it work. (Never shot anything past 200 anyways).

Just in my small circle, I know of 3 animals killed with archery equipment at 70+ yards. Is that still “primitive”? With range finders, sliders, mechanical broad heads, etc., archery hunters have become much more proficient. Where is that line?

In NM, if a bull survives the new scope less ML season, he could be shot the very next weekend at 700+ by a rifle hunter with a range finder, turrets, purpose built rifle etc. Obviously season dates play a factor, but some of the first elk rifle hunts still had bulls being pretty vocal this year.

Where is the line for archery and rifle before technology has to be addressed or tag numbers have to be cut?

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Apparently The vortex spitfire AR is set up with a dial system that maybe could work. But it would sit high on most guns.

Both the Nikon 1x and vortex 1x are discontinued.

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Originally Posted by boatanchor
Originally Posted by GreatWaputi
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
"Yeah, let's just make it easier for hunters to wound an animal that they are going to shoot at anyway". WTF

It's only been maybe three or four years that Utah has allowed scopes other than 1x on muzzleloaders. Smokeless muzzleloaders are also new there.

You are wrong on one point.......smokeless muzzleloaders have never been allowed in Utah. I had to buy $150 a pound Blackhorn last year so that my hi powered Leupold scope could fail on the last day of the hunt

Thanks. I haven't kept up 100% but for some reason thought they allowed smokeless when they allowed scopes with magnification, looks like I was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Triggernosis
"Yeah, let's just make it easier for hunters to wound an animal that they are going to shoot at anyway". WTF




For several decades PAGC did exactly that.
Mandating open, iron sights, and round balls.

The flintlock part I don’t mind, enjoy it actually, it’s a real primitive season.

There is nothing sporting about using inferior sights or less effective ammo. Simply using fiber optics and any kind of modern bullet has improved our results.
Less tracking, rarely not finding the deer.





SLM,
“Where is that line"
Where in the hell is it?

Bow hunters all puffed up about their sport,
Buying a new$1200 bow every year because it gives some advantage. Outfitting it with every bit of new tech, to gain advantage. Then talking all about their prowess with said “primitive” weapon.


In the next breath, he is going to blast crossbows because “these crossbows make it too easy”!

Tech has improved crossbows, but the design is
Centuries old. They are improved from old designs by using……compound bow technology.


DGAS how a guy hunts,until he starts running his mouth and puffing up. Or shows his hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Good. A ML is supposed to be a primitive weapon. Fine rule!


I happen to agree with this.....even though I own and sometimes hunt with a scoped inline black powder rifle.

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Originally Posted by MickinColo
Just use iron sights. I think that would be pretty easy.
That would keep many older hunters out of the game - due to eyesight.
A 1X scope, or non-magnifying optic should suffice, as far as the original intent.


IOW - "That's easy for YOU to say!" laugh


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What was the policy reason again?


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Wouldnt hurt my feelings if they went to flintlock with iron sights only

Originally Posted by Triggernosis
"Yeah, let's just make it easier for hunters to wound an animal that they are going to shoot at anyway". WTF

LMAO. what are your thoughts on bow hunting?


Originally Posted by mark shubert
That would keep many older hunters out of the game - due to eyesight. laugh

Sucks gettin old. Primitive season is just that. If you cant use the required equipment, find a different hunt

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Although I cannot use open sights anymore, I am glad that they are doing this. Muzzle loaders have gotten to the point that they are nothing but a single-shot rifle with longer range capabilities. I started muzzle loading in NM many years ago, before the advent of in-line rifles, sabots, and scopes. It was a true muzzle loader, primitive-style hunt. I now use an in-line rifle with a scope, because I can't shoot open sights well anyway and they are legal. The new technology has destroyed the essence of a primitive hunt, though. All anyone wants to do, is extend their shooting range. My hammer guns lay idle.

That being said, the 1x scope is a pos. To have the same view as without a scope, it needs to be a 1.5 at least. 1x is a tunnel view pos, in my opinion-I tried a couple different ones. If I had to go that route, it would be a red dot, most likely.

Technology has messed up other stuff, too, like fishing.


You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it.
A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck.
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Originally Posted by harrierwood
Apparently The vortex spitfire AR is set up with a dial system that maybe could work. But it would sit high on most guns.

Both the Nikon 1x and vortex 1x are discontinued.

Originally Posted by mark shubert
Originally Posted by MickinColo
Just use iron sights. I think that would be pretty easy.
That would keep many older hunters out of the game - due to eyesight.
A 1X scope, or non-magnifying optic should suffice, as far as the original intent.


IOW - "That's easy for YOU to say!" laugh

eBay <100.00 and used one on a handgun and muzzle loader for 35 years now. Called a Tasco pro point red dot. 1x mounts just like a scope.



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My question is how does what somebody else uses mess it up for you? If you don't like scopes, don't use one. It takes a fragile person to be upset at others' equipment choices.

If it is a matter of controlling how much game is made, restrict the number of tags issued. But they would rather sell more tags and take in that cash and do other things to lower success rate.


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Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Good. A ML is supposed to be a primitive weapon. Fine rule!

It's been that way in Oregon for ever. Guys that use these, should be familiar with iron sights anyway. Some guys in Oregon chose muzzle loader season because they run into more bulls during the rut. The season is also much longer than the regular rifle season. The tags are also easier to get in the controlled hunt areas. I used to kill many a jackrabbit with muzzle loaders out in the desert. Some of these guys need to quit their biotching and get out and practice more.
You need to read the synopsis. Only one elk hunt durning the rut. Cow elk on private land in the Elkhorns. Easier to draw no, longer time to hunt no. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Dillonbuck
[
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
"Yeah, let's just make it easier for hunters to wound an animal that they are going to shoot at anyway". WTF




For several decades PAGC did exactly that.
Mandating open, iron sights, and round balls.

The flintlock part I don’t mind, enjoy it actually, it’s a real primitive season.

There is nothing sporting about using inferior sights or less effective ammo. Simply using fiber optics and any kind of modern bullet has improved our results.
Less tracking, rarely not finding the deer.





SLM,
“Where is that line"
Where in the hell is it?

Bow hunters all puffed up about their sport,
Buying a new$1200 bow every year because it gives some advantage. Outfitting it with every bit of new tech, to gain advantage. Then talking all about their prowess with said “primitive” weapon.


In the next breath, he is going to blast crossbows because “these crossbows make it too easy”!

Tech has improved crossbows, but the design is
Centuries old. They are improved from old designs by using……compound bow technology.


DGAS how a guy hunts,until he starts running his mouth and puffing up. Or shows his hypocrisy.
Originally Posted by Dillonbuck
[
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
"Yeah, let's just make it easier for hunters to wound an animal that they are going to shoot at anyway". WTF




For several decades PAGC did exactly that.
Mandating open, iron sights, and round balls.

The flintlock part I don’t mind, enjoy it actually, it’s a real primitive season.

There is nothing sporting about using inferior sights or less effective ammo. Simply using fiber optics and any kind of modern bullet has improved our results.
Less tracking, rarely not finding the deer.





SLM,
“Where is that line"
Where in the hell is it?

Bow hunters all puffed up about their sport,
Buying a new$1200 bow every year because it gives some advantage. Outfitting it with every bit of new tech, to gain advantage. Then talking all about their prowess with said “primitive” weapon.


In the next breath, he is going to blast crossbows because “these crossbows make it too easy”!

Tech has improved crossbows, but the design is
Centuries old. They are improved from old designs by using……compound bow technology.


DGAS how a guy hunts,until he starts running his mouth and puffing up. Or shows his hypocrisy.
Uh, ok, a modern bow can shoot 80-100 yards. So what. You don’t recognize the difference in lethality and the ethical conundrum created by a muzzleloader that can shoot 7-800 yards? Ok. You obviously don’t bow hunt.

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Originally Posted by drop_point
My question is how does what somebody else uses mess it up for you? If you don't like scopes, don't use one. It takes a fragile person to be upset at others' equipment choices.

If it is a matter of controlling how much game is made, restrict the number of tags issued. But they would rather sell more tags and take in that cash and do other things to lower success rate.
You are missing a giant point… opportunity! Cutting tags to reach harvest objectives kills opportunity and draw odds. When they are so bad already, doing so just makes it worse. We want to be able to hunt! So the practical solution is to reduce lethality by limiting the weapon! Which was supposed to be limited in the first place.

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I don't buy the older people and eye sight excuse. I'm73 and have been wearing glasses, since age 15. Glasses or contacts corrected the vision problems. Everyone is just looking for an advantage, that the primitive season was not intended to accommodate.

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Originally Posted by Heym06
Everyone is just looking for an advantage, that the primitive season was not intended to accommodate.

\
It's no different from anything else that man is engaged in, he is always looking for an advantage. Give him an inch and he will take a mile. While I do believe that as a hunter you are obligated to dispatch your prey in the quickest and most humane possible.......and there is most certainly an argument for allowing a scope sight on a rifle in order to more precisely place your shot.......the term "primitive weapon" should mean just that.

I started out bow hunting in the 1960's with a recurve bow and wooden arrows, which was the standard outfit at the time. To take a deer with such a setup was indeed quite a feat. It wasn't long before bows had progressed into compounds, complete with sights which pretty much took all the guesswork out of hitting the target. Today's archery deer hunters are not using a weapon that is "primitive" by any stretch of the definition of the word.

It is also the same way with the muzzle loaders. My first one was a Hawken style, which was a huge improvement over the Kentucky style muzzle loaders that were mostly being used. Within a few short years, the open sighted Kentucky and Hawken styles were a thing of the past, with everyone wanting a synthetic stocked inline, with a scope, capable of accuracy that far exceeded that of the earlier rifle.

But, it's not just the bows and the rifles that have become modernized, it's all the other equipment that goes along with them. Arrows, broadheads, powder, bullets, primers...........you name it, it's nothing like it was when the states set up the primitive weapon seasons. However, by the same token, I no longer hunt deer with an open sighted military surplus rifle as I did when I started deer hunting in 1963. The equipment I use today is a far cry from what it was when I started back then. My gun is better, my clothes are warmer, I use trail cameras, I hunt out of a nice dry and warm shooting house, and I have the opportunity to hunt for more than the original 3 day season.

Yep, leave it to man, and he'll figure out a way to make it easier to do something, and that includes killing a deer.

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Originally Posted by drop_point
My question is how does what somebody else uses mess it up for you? If you don't like scopes, don't use one. It takes a fragile person to be upset at others' equipment choices.

If it is a matter of controlling how much game is made, restrict the number of tags issued. But they would rather sell more tags and take in that cash and do other things to lower success rate.
Thats why we have a general season. Use your scoped inline during the general.

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The eyesight thing is real.
Proly just put a reflex sight at my rear sight location next yr
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Its stainless so aint traditional LOL.

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I don't think every BP hunter is running around with an 8K gun, shooting at a half mile. I would guess it's a very small minority. To not allow someone to make a more accurate shot by the use of an optic is just wrong. I wonder how many elk in Colorado are wounded every year by this nonsense. The thing with BP is your going to get one shot. Maybe, if it goes off. Or doesn't hang fire. Elk may or may not hang around and watch you fumble with your rifle. One day your going to get old, and wish you had a scope. Because age is a thing.

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Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
I don't think every BP hunter is running around with an 8K gun, shooting at a half mile. I would guess it's a very small minority. To not allow someone to make a more accurate shot by the use of an optic is just wrong. I wonder how many elk in Colorado are wounded every year by this nonsense. The thing with BP is you’re going to get one shot. Maybe, if it goes off. Or doesn't hang fire. Elk may or may not hang around and watch you fumble with your rifle. One day you’re going to get old, and wish you had a scope. Because age is a thing.
You guess wrong, and obviously did not see New Mexico before their ban, or Utah. Or Arizona now. Everyone had, or has, them. And if the Hunter didn’t have one, their outfitter did. Long shots with a muzzleloader became the expected norm.

It has nothing to do with an accurate shot or not. Perfectly accurate shots can be made without scopes or with only 1x if the range is sensibly limited, as is the intent of the law. But it has everything to do with keeping people from shooting 719 yards across the canyon at an animal. Take the scopes away, and you take away that nonsense. That’s the point.

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Lots of us are old already.

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Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
I don't think every BP hunter is running around with an 8K gun, shooting at a half mile. I would guess it's a very small minority. To not allow someone to make a more accurate shot by the use of an optic is just wrong. I wonder how many elk in Colorado are wounded every year by this nonsense. The thing with BP is you’re going to get one shot. Maybe, if it goes off. Or doesn't hang fire. Elk may or may not hang around and watch you fumble with your rifle. One day you’re going to get old, and wish you had a scope. Because age is a thing.
You guess wrong, and obviously did not see New Mexico before their ban, or Utah. Or Arizona now. Everyone had, or has, them. And if the Hunter didn’t have one, their outfitter did. Long shots with a muzzleloader became the expected norm.

It has nothing to do with an accurate shot or not. Perfectly accurate shots can be made without scopes or with only 1x if the range is sensibly limited, as is the intent of the law. But it has everything to do with keeping people from shooting 719 yards across the canyon at an animal. Take the scopes away, and you take away that nonsense. That’s the point.

I'm going to have to disagree. Feel free to run a poll on any inline muzzleloader website on how many BP hunters in those states are running around with 8K guns with 5-30 Nightforces on top of them shooting elk at a half mile. I'd guess way less than 5% of all MZ hunters. MZ loads from the muzzle. One shot. That's the point. If you want a flintlock, percussion, 209, BP, 777, BH209, it's al good. Outlawing a scope, well then, let's outlaw compound bows. Sights. Get closer. See where I'm going with this? Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong. I'd like to be able to use a scope. But my state thinks it's unfair, and unsporting but wolves are just fine. And I guarantee you they will kill more elk in a decade than your half mile MZ shooters.

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The simple solution is open or closed, those should be the only 2 seasons.

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Originally Posted by SDHNTR
You really have to understand how special a limited entry deer or elk tag is in Utah. This isn’t Pennsylvania! It’s a dream tag for most. Worth $10k+ in a lot of cases if you compare it to similar landowner, Expo, or outfitted hunts. Because of this passions run high. To maintain the quality of these hunts, to be worth the wait, something had to be done! Can’t control the extreme weather conditions affecting the herds, so the state has to use the things they can control to manage objectives.

ML hunts were originally designed to bridge the difficulty gap between archery and rifle seasons and were given season dates and better draw odds accordingly. They had harvest objectives which allowed for so many tags. With the original 1x scope limit, this worked fine. Then along came these custom ML’s shooting 209, a 215 primer, ridiculous speeds, with scopes with turrets and nearly every bit of the capability of a magnum centerfire round. I know of several deer and elk shot at 5-800 yards with these things. That’s not a limited or primitive weapon at all. Harvest objectives went out the window. They were just too lethal, and deemed unfair given favorable season dates.

So here we are: if you want to shoot a ML you gotta use one that fits with the original intent and conforms to management objectives. The real hunters I know, even the ones who spent $5k+ to build these fancy ML’s, all understand. It was never right to begin with.

Imo, I like Idaho. Exposed ignition only. Make ML hunting ML hunting!


So true!!!!!

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^^^ You better believe it! They are slaying the deer around here with ML , which ends tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by MickinColo
Originally muzzle loading season was created to let people hunt like their forefathers back in the flintlock and cap lock era of 1750 up to the civil war without competing with Hi powered rifle. There were limited licenses and people wanted to experience that. Today it's just another F__king hunting season. One more chance to put more meat in the freezer. It's Little more than a single shot center fire rifle without a cartridge case.
This is true. Idaho has not allowed optics and primer has to be exposed to weather and not covered and sealed. There's also projectile restrictions.

I think the intent of the season has largely been lost and lots of public lands have fewer numbers of wildlife so rules need to be implemented.

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Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
I don't think every BP hunter is running around with an 8K gun, shooting at a half mile. I would guess it's a very small minority. To not allow someone to make a more accurate shot by the use of an optic is just wrong. I wonder how many elk in Colorado are wounded every year by this nonsense. The thing with BP is you’re going to get one shot. Maybe, if it goes off. Or doesn't hang fire. Elk may or may not hang around and watch you fumble with your rifle. One day you’re going to get old, and wish you had a scope. Because age is a thing.
You guess wrong, and obviously did not see New Mexico before their ban, or Utah. Or Arizona now. Everyone had, or has, them. And if the Hunter didn’t have one, their outfitter did. Long shots with a muzzleloader became the expected norm.

It has nothing to do with an accurate shot or not. Perfectly accurate shots can be made without scopes or with only 1x if the range is sensibly limited, as is the intent of the law. But it has everything to do with keeping people from shooting 719 yards across the canyon at an animal. Take the scopes away, and you take away that nonsense. That’s the point.


Not sure what part of NM you spend your time in, but my experience is completely opposite. The people carrying long range ML’s definitely were the minority. Like everything, the yardage is also blown out of proportion.

Should rifle hunters also be limited to stop the “719 yard cross canyon shot”?

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Originally Posted by SLM
Should rifle hunters also be limited to stop the “719 yard cross canyon shot”?

Maybe. Where the resource is limited but demand is not, there are 3 possibilities: 1) limit access, 2) limit technology, 3) more or less exterminate the prey. Since most game departments are not allowed to let the deer be wiped out as wolves and grizzly bears were in many places, the choices are to limit the number of hunters or limit technology to increase escapement / survival. If you want to hunt every year, you may have to limit the technology you're allowed to use. If you want to use only the most advanced technology, then each hunter may be limited to hunting once in 5 years or once in 10 years. Which, among those, do you prefer?

In my area, the only reason that we're not doing draw tags to limit access is the friggin' brush is so thick that today's long range guns have limited advantage at best. If you live in open country, that won't be the case.


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Originally Posted by T_O_M
Originally Posted by SLM
Should rifle hunters also be limited to stop the “719 yard cross canyon shot”?

Maybe. Where the resource is limited but demand is not, there are 3 possibilities: 1) limit access, 2) limit technology, 3) more or less exterminate the prey. Since most game departments are not allowed to let the deer be wiped out as wolves and grizzly bears were in many places, the choices are to limit the number of hunters or limit technology to increase escapement / survival. If you want to hunt every year, you may have to limit the technology you're allowed to use. If you want to use only the most advanced technology, then each hunter may be limited to hunting once in 5 years or once in 10 years. Which, among those, do you prefer?

In my area, the only reason that we're not doing draw tags to limit access is the friggin' brush is so thick that today's long range guns have limited advantage at best. If you live in open country, that won't be the case.

Opportunity in the West is getting harder every year. The only ways to increase opportunity, is increase population or reduce take. Speaking to NM, increasing population is obviously not the easy button with drought, land owner conflict, broken landscape etc.

There obviously is not a right answer for everyone, some would rather opportunity, while others want quality. With more and more people wanting to hunt the West, technology is going to have to be addressed across the board IMO. When people have waited years to draw and/or spent a pile of money in the points game, they are going to use every technological advantage they can afford and is legal. IMO, it is time to look at/discuss all technolgy across the board. What does that look like? I don’t know,

I do think it’s funny when we had the ML discussion in NM, you had both the rifle and archery hunters saying “ML’s didn’t shoot that far when the hunts were originally set. Well, 40 yards with archery and 300/400 yards with a rifle were the norm back then as well.

The line is different for everyone, but I think as time goes on, some hard discussions are going to have to be had.

ETA; in short, I’d rather limit technology if it means more opportunity.

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Originally Posted by SLM
some would rather opportunity, while others want quality.

This is why I like Idaho’s system, despite all of IDFG’s shortcomings.

Some deer/elk areas are tough draws and often provide absolutely stellar hunts. Other areas are open which at least provide opportunity, even if a guy has to share it with everyone else in the west and a mature animal is generally much tougher to find.

It hasn’t always been that way but with how many people have moved there and the popularity of western hunting the last 10 years, their system is about the best one I have experience with. Other states have similar systems, but have point systems thrown into the foray, which makes things complicated.



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I’m in the minority but I think they should just can all ‘special’ seasons. When the season is open, it’s open for any method of take. Let the folks that actually like muzzleloaders use them alongside rifles. My bet, most folks don’t like muzzleloaders and only use them because they get special treatment and seasons.

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Originally Posted by K1500
I’m in the minority but I think they should just can all ‘special’ seasons. When the season is open, it’s open for any method of take. Let the folks that actually like muzzleloaders use them alongside rifles. My bet, most folks don’t like muzzleloaders and only use them because they get special treatment and seasons.

I’d agree most would prefer rifle over muzzleloaders, though lots of people are bowhunters only.

This is where the increased opportunity at the expense of preferred methods give and take comes in. While I for sure prefer a rifle hunt, I am totally willing to use a less desirable weapon for the better chances of getting to do the hunt at all.



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Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
I don't think every BP hunter is running around with an 8K gun, shooting at a half mile. I would guess it's a very small minority. To not allow someone to make a more accurate shot by the use of an optic is just wrong. I wonder how many elk in Colorado are wounded every year by this nonsense. The thing with BP is you’re going to get one shot. Maybe, if it goes off. Or doesn't hang fire. Elk may or may not hang around and watch you fumble with your rifle. One day you’re going to get old, and wish you had a scope. Because age is a thing.
You guess wrong, and obviously did not see New Mexico before their ban, or Utah. Or Arizona now. Everyone had, or has, them. And if the Hunter didn’t have one, their outfitter did. Long shots with a muzzleloader became the expected norm.

It has nothing to do with an accurate shot or not. Perfectly accurate shots can be made without scopes or with only 1x if the range is sensibly limited, as is the intent of the law. But it has everything to do with keeping people from shooting 719 yards across the canyon at an animal. Take the scopes away, and you take away that nonsense. That’s the point.

I'm going to have to disagree. Feel free to run a poll on any inline muzzleloader website on how many BP hunters in those states are running around with 8K guns with 5-30 Nightforces on top of them shooting elk at a half mile. I'd guess way less than 5% of all MZ hunters. MZ loads from the muzzle. One shot. That's the point. If you want a flintlock, percussion, 209, BP, 777, BH209, it's al good. Outlawing a scope, well then, let's outlaw compound bows. Sights. Get closer. See where I'm going with this? Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong. I'd like to be able to use a scope. But my state thinks it's unfair, and unsporting but wolves are just fine. And I guarantee you they will kill more elk in a decade than your half mile MZ shooters.

I do like it. I own one of those fancy things. But I'm also honest in that I think they have no business being allowed in a more favorable season. And I don't think the herds can support another season that is nearly as lethal as centerfire seasons. Just curious, have you ever set foot in NM prior to the ban? EVERY SINGLE ML had a scope with a turret. Every one. AZ is the same way. It's out of hand.

Limiting tech doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. And I don't buy your slippery slope argument. I believe there is a sensible middle ground that can be applied. Eliminating scopes on muzzleloaders is one of those circumstances.

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Originally Posted by K1500
I’m in the minority but I think they should just can all ‘special’ seasons. When the season is open, it’s open for any method of take. Let the folks that actually like muzzleloaders use them alongside rifles. My bet, most folks don’t like muzzleloaders and only use them because they get special treatment and seasons.

We don't have enough game out west for that mentality, and too many people that want to hunt them. It needs to be balanced with opportunity..

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Not going to argue rights/wrongs, etc...but being an Idahoan we've never had the scope option...and I'll tell you this: the Williams "WESTERN PRECISION FIBER OPTIC MUZZLELOADING SIGHT" is freaking amazing. Can't imagine a cheap 1x scope could compare...but, again, what do I know?


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Wonder how many use good detachables and a big backpack. LOL.

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Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Just curious, have you ever set foot in NM prior to the ban? EVERY SINGLE ML had a scope with a turret. Every one.

I am out during multiple ML hunts every year in ML only units and this is not my experience at all.

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Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
I don't think every BP hunter is running around with an 8K gun, shooting at a half mile. I would guess it's a very small minority. To not allow someone to make a more accurate shot by the use of an optic is just wrong. I wonder how many elk in Colorado are wounded every year by this nonsense. The thing with BP is you’re going to get one shot. Maybe, if it goes off. Or doesn't hang fire. Elk may or may not hang around and watch you fumble with your rifle. One day you’re going to get old, and wish you had a scope. Because age is a thing.
You guess wrong, and obviously did not see New Mexico before their ban, or Utah. Or Arizona now. Everyone had, or has, them. And if the Hunter didn’t have one, their outfitter did. Long shots with a muzzleloader became the expected norm.

It has nothing to do with an accurate shot or not. Perfectly accurate shots can be made without scopes or with only 1x if the range is sensibly limited, as is the intent of the law. But it has everything to do with keeping people from shooting 719 yards across the canyon at an animal. Take the scopes away, and you take away that nonsense. That’s the point.

I'm going to have to disagree. Feel free to run a poll on any inline muzzleloader website on how many BP hunters in those states are running around with 8K guns with 5-30 Nightforces on top of them shooting elk at a half mile. I'd guess way less than 5% of all MZ hunters. MZ loads from the muzzle. One shot. That's the point. If you want a flintlock, percussion, 209, BP, 777, BH209, it's al good. Outlawing a scope, well then, let's outlaw compound bows. Sights. Get closer. See where I'm going with this? Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong. I'd like to be able to use a scope. But my state thinks it's unfair, and unsporting but wolves are just fine. And I guarantee you they will kill more elk in a decade than your half mile MZ shooters.

I do like it. I own one of those fancy things. But I'm also honest in that I think they have no business being allowed in a more favorable season. And I don't think the herds can support another season that is nearly as lethal as centerfire seasons. Just curious, have you ever set foot in NM prior to the ban? EVERY SINGLE ML had a scope with a turret. Every one. AZ is the same way. It's out of hand.

Limiting tech doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. And I don't buy your slippery slope argument. I believe there is a sensible middle ground that can be applied. Eliminating scopes on muzzleloaders is one of those circumstances.

I have no burning desire to hunt NM, Utah, or Arizona. According to Colorado Parks and Wildlife, my state has the largest elk herd on earth. And now you can hunt them like we do. I hope you enjoy leaving the dark timber a half hour before sunset because you can't see your irons. Or seeing one at sunset, silhouetted against the woods and just having a blob and the end of your barrel. I hope you enjoy your sensible middle ground. I would have rather had less tags.

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Most muzzle loader hunts,by design are primitive weapons hunts. In my opinion, they should be kept that way. I have a long range rifle, and like using it during the general rifle season. But that's not what a primitive muzzle loader season is.They should be open sights, lead projectiles. The Long range, and scoped muzzleloader have just done an end around the rules. Now most states are catching up, and fixing it. I'm headed out this weekend hunting elk with an open sighted lead projectile muzzle loader. We are good to 100 yds. That was the intent of most muzzle loader seasons.

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What then was the intent of the archery season? stick and sinew? flint arrowhead?

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Originally Posted by boatanchor
Originally Posted by GreatWaputi
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
"Yeah, let's just make it easier for hunters to wound an animal that they are going to shoot at anyway". WTF

It's only been maybe three or four years that Utah has allowed scopes other than 1x on muzzleloaders. Smokeless muzzleloaders are also new there.

You are wrong on one point.......smokeless muzzleloaders have never been allowed in Utah. I had to buy $150 a pound Blackhorn last year so that my hi powered Leupold scope could fail on the last day of the hunt

So you missed a 250yds shot with a muzzle loader and the reason was a scope issue?


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Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Originally Posted by K1500
I’m in the minority but I think they should just can all ‘special’ seasons. When the season is open, it’s open for any method of take. Let the folks that actually like muzzleloaders use them alongside rifles. My bet, most folks don’t like muzzleloaders and only use them because they get special treatment and seasons.

We don't have enough game out west for that mentality, and too many people that want to hunt them. It needs to be balanced with opportunity..

Isn’t everything tag driven? Just issue the correct number of tags X predicted success rate to equal the desired harvest. Not sure why muzzleloader hunters would get treated preferentially over gun hunters, like they are now. Why are they ‘special’?

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Originally Posted by GSSP
It's happening. The DWR is taking away scopes of more than 1x for all muzzleloading hunts. Red Dot and 1x will still be allowed.

Alan

Just wondering- Is this politically driven by the left?

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Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Originally Posted by SDHNTR
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
I don't think every BP hunter is running around with an 8K gun, shooting at a half mile. I would guess it's a very small minority. To not allow someone to make a more accurate shot by the use of an optic is just wrong. I wonder how many elk in Colorado are wounded every year by this nonsense. The thing with BP is you’re going to get one shot. Maybe, if it goes off. Or doesn't hang fire. Elk may or may not hang around and watch you fumble with your rifle. One day you’re going to get old, and wish you had a scope. Because age is a thing.
You guess wrong, and obviously did not see New Mexico before their ban, or Utah. Or Arizona now. Everyone had, or has, them. And if the Hunter didn’t have one, their outfitter did. Long shots with a muzzleloader became the expected norm.

It has nothing to do with an accurate shot or not. Perfectly accurate shots can be made without scopes or with only 1x if the range is sensibly limited, as is the intent of the law. But it has everything to do with keeping people from shooting 719 yards across the canyon at an animal. Take the scopes away, and you take away that nonsense. That’s the point.

I'm going to have to disagree. Feel free to run a poll on any inline muzzleloader website on how many BP hunters in those states are running around with 8K guns with 5-30 Nightforces on top of them shooting elk at a half mile. I'd guess way less than 5% of all MZ hunters. MZ loads from the muzzle. One shot. That's the point. If you want a flintlock, percussion, 209, BP, 777, BH209, it's al good. Outlawing a scope, well then, let's outlaw compound bows. Sights. Get closer. See where I'm going with this? Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong. I'd like to be able to use a scope. But my state thinks it's unfair, and unsporting but wolves are just fine. And I guarantee you they will kill more elk in a decade than your half mile MZ shooters.

I do like it. I own one of those fancy things. But I'm also honest in that I think they have no business being allowed in a more favorable season. And I don't think the herds can support another season that is nearly as lethal as centerfire seasons. Just curious, have you ever set foot in NM prior to the ban? EVERY SINGLE ML had a scope with a turret. Every one. AZ is the same way. It's out of hand.

Limiting tech doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. And I don't buy your slippery slope argument. I believe there is a sensible middle ground that can be applied. Eliminating scopes on muzzleloaders is one of those circumstances.

I have no burning desire to hunt NM, Utah, or Arizona. According to Colorado Parks and Wildlife, my state has the largest elk herd on earth. And now you can hunt them like we do. I hope you enjoy leaving the dark timber a half hour before sunset because you can't see your irons. Or seeing one at sunset, silhouetted against the woods and just having a blob and the end of your barrel. I hope you enjoy your sensible middle ground. I would have rather had less tags.
Um, Its supposed to be more difficult. WTF

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Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
What then was the intent of the archery season? stick and sinew? flint arrowhead?
Actually, not a bad idea. Perhaps a return to traditional archery equip would be a good thing.

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Well then, lets take that premise to the rifle season too. If irons were good enough for Elmer Keith, we don't need the PRS boys with the .338 Lapua's taking the long shot. All you need is Granddad's Sharps. After all, they took care of bison.

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How about a class action law suit, age and sight impairment discrimination. Suits have been filed over less.

Old folk being dissed.

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Americans for Disability Act. Read the fine print.

Federal class action lawsuit. We being dissed. We got rights.

If it had to do with gender stuff, pronouns, etc., it’d be a slam dunk. Hunting not being P.C., well who knows.

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That is a struggle that i have. I wouldn't mind a return to more basic hunting gear, but in a general rifle season who am I to tell others what they can and can't use. I am a big advocate of freedom of choice on these issues. Primitive hunts with muzzle loaders, and some archery are by design, just that, primitive. As I stated before, technology has allowed an end around this premise with long range muzzle loaders, scopes and projectiles. And to a similar degree, compound bows, and advanced sighting systems. All we are seeing now are states reigning this in a bit, particularly in the area of muzzle loaders.

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I have read all five pages of this thread. No one has given any empirical, peer-reviewed evidence at all by anyone, much less the states that set the regulations that scoped muzzleloaders are decimating the elk herds, or worse wounding elk and leaving them to die. All I have read is "I don't like it". That's not a way to set policy. Or law.

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Americans for Disability Act. Read the fine print.

Federal class action lawsuit. We being dissed. We got rights.

If it had to do with gender stuff, pronouns, etc., it’d be a slam dunk. Hunting not being P.C., well who knows.

DF

I think it was done several years ago, and thrown out. I can't site it, but remember reading about it on one of the MZ forums.

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I believe some states do have some sort of primitive, stick bow only hunts. I am not sure of the specifics, but the concept being discussed here isn’t totally limited to muzzleloaders.

What about the urban hunts, that are restricted to short range weapons, or sometimes archery only? Safety is the excuse for those restrictions, but do some of you all think those hunts should be lumped into the ‘between X day and day’, with no other restrictions model of wildlife management?

I’m not being condescending: I am genuinely curious.



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Virginia tried that for deer in urban areas, due to the rise of car accidents, and property damage of gardens. It was archery only. And a dismal failure, because you see, the guy in the tree was in someone's back yard, shooting a deer and it running and dying on someone else's front porch, or in the road and there were copious amounts of blood. The non hunters went berserk, and the news crews slaviated.

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Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Virginia tried that for deer in urban areas, due to the rise of car accidents, and property damage of gardens. It was archery only. And a dismal failure, because you see, the guy in the tree was in someone's back yard, shooting a deer and it running and dying on someone else's front porch, or in the road and there were copious amounts of blood. The non hunters went berserk, and the news crews slaviated.
I can see how that wouldn’t work.

They’ll probably go to hired game control guys with silencers like around airports.

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Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
I have read all five pages of this thread. No one has given any empirical, peer-reviewed evidence at all by anyone, much less the states that set the regulations that scoped muzzleloaders are decimating the elk herds, or worse wounding elk and leaving them to die. All I have read is "I don't like it". That's not a way to set policy. Or law.
Speaking for only ldaho, and Montana regs, as that is what I am familiar with. Scopes, and lr projectiles don't fit their definition of " primitive ". So it doesn't really have anything to do with whether I like it or not. Our week long primitive muzzle loader season here in Montana wont have any effect on overall game populations. The season isn't very long, there aren't very many hunters, and success rate is pretty low. If scoped muzzle loaders were allowed, I would argue that success rates would drastically increase, and more people would do it. Its way easier to get within 300yds of an elk than it is 100yds. Case in point. Last year I was able to get within 240 yds of a big 6 pt bull during the muzzle loader season. Couldn't get closer, didn't get a shot. If I would have had a scoped muzzle loader, with lr projectiles, I would have been able to make the shot. The difficulty is part of the primitive hunt that these states are having.

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This broad(MZ, archery) topic is never not funny.


Watch the replies, the twisting.....

Everyone seems to have a horn, no one can stand their ox getting gored.

It's amazing how we justify what WE want,
while attacking someone else doing the same thing, in a different way!


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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Virginia tried that for deer in urban areas, due to the rise of car accidents, and property damage of gardens. It was archery only. And a dismal failure, because you see, the guy in the tree was in someone's back yard, shooting a deer and it running and dying on someone else's front porch, or in the road and there were copious amounts of blood. The non hunters went berserk, and the news crews slaviated.
I can see how that wouldn’t work.

They’ll probably go to hired game control guys with silencers like around airports.

DF


Then folks would be on here complaining about conspiracies with the game department, spending tax dollars when hunters could take care of the problem.



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Originally Posted by T_Inman
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Virginia tried that for deer in urban areas, due to the rise of car accidents, and property damage of gardens. It was archery only. And a dismal failure, because you see, the guy in the tree was in someone's back yard, shooting a deer and it running and dying on someone else's front porch, or in the road and there were copious amounts of blood. The non hunters went berserk, and the news crews slaviated.
I can see how that wouldn’t work.

They’ll probably go to hired game control guys with silencers like around airports.

DF


Then folks would be on here complaining about conspiracies with the game department, spending tax dollars when hunters could take care of the problem.
Yep.

But liability issues probably take president over sporting concerns.

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Confederate and Union snipers were taking out personnel at a half mile during the Civil War using scopes. How much more primitive do we have to get? That was 158 years ago.

You have the responsibility to make a clean accurate shot. A scope allows this. Sabots, pellets, BH 209, and 209' primers all enhance accuracy and reliability. Why is this outlawed? To make it more difficult? Really? That's your argument? Do you want to set up for equipment failure, or perhaps wounding an animal? These restrictions are not carried out in the other seasons. You can use Carbon fiber arrows, and compound bows with letoff percentages that Fred Bear would kill for. Centerfire seasons are pretty much minimum caliber and go.

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Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Confederate and Union snipers were taking out personnel at a half mile during the Civil War using scopes. How much more primitive do we have to get? That was 158 years ago.

You have the responsibility to make a clean accurate shot. A scope allows this. Sabots, pellets, BH 209, and 209' primers all enhance accuracy and reliability. Why is this outlawed? To make it more difficult? Really? That's your argument? Do you want to set up for equipment failure, or perhaps wounding an animal? These restrictions are not carried out in the other seasons. You can use Carbon fiber arrows, and compound bows with letoff percentages that Fred Bear would kill for. Centerfire seasons are pretty much minimum caliber and go.
Careful with that logic.

Bureaucrats know better.

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Confederate and Union snipers were taking out personnel at a half mile during the Civil War using scopes. How much more primitive do we have to get? That was 158 years ago.

You have the responsibility to make a clean accurate shot. A scope allows this. Sabots, pellets, BH 209, and 209' primers all enhance accuracy and reliability. Why is this outlawed? To make it more difficult? Really? That's your argument? Do you want to set up for equipment failure, or perhaps wounding an animal? These restrictions are not carried out in the other seasons. You can use Carbon fiber arrows, and compound bows with letoff percentages that Fred Bear would kill for. Centerfire seasons are pretty much minimum caliber and go.
Careful with that logic.

Bureaucrats know better.

DF

Interesting theory except one forgotten point, 99% of the populace couldn’t afford a scope in 1860.



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I personally like having the more restrictive "primitive" rules, but I don't really have a problem with states going the other way either.

I don't get the complaints some have on hunting regulations being based on hunter preferences rather than studies or data. Aside from the regulations that deal specifically with safety pretty much all of the other regulations are based on somebodies' opinion of what constitutes fair chase. As long as the game commissions are representing their constituencies, I'd say things are operating as they should be. Of course, that's a separate issue.

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I feel that the ones that always pollute these threads with their bullchit anti-crossbow and anti-scope stuff are probably barely hunting anymore due to age. The same fuggers that have bitched and cried about Sunday hunting here in PA. They fight any change. Why is it so bad to give more people a chance at getting into the woods and killing game? If you want to pretend your living in the 1800s, then have at it. Stop ruining opportunity for other hunters to get out and use the equipment they chose to use. If over harvest is the issue, then cut tags back. Its not hard. Why do some of you fight so hard to turn people away from our great sport?

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Originally Posted by atse
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
What then was the intent of the archery season? stick and sinew? flint arrowhead?
Actually, not a bad idea. Perhaps a return to traditional archery equip would be a good thing.
How would that be good? Many more wounded animals form using equipment that was never designed to offer quick, efficient kills? F uck is wrong with some of you

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Originally Posted by gunchamp
If over harvest is the issue, then cut tags back.

I would much rather have limits on technology myself.

Eta: Hard to draw tags is what got us here IMO.

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JMHO- I wouldn't be upset with a "season " like
others have posted. Season open- use what you
have. I've always wanted to spear a deer myself
ever since I saw a video of it, but I'd have to go
out of state.

I'm pretty much of the opinion of
Hunt your own hunt and let me hunt mine

A lot of what I see in my region is big antlers
to post online or decorate the office or living
room. That's fine with me if that's your goal.
Just leave me be and let me kill my little cull
and fill my freezer bags and make my sausage.
I'd be just as happy if all the deer were built
like nilgai with a dozer sized body and minimal
headgear. It'd be a shame to have to buy extra
freezer bags grin

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In this state crossbows were supposed to be a way for folks that couldn’t pull a standard bow due to medical issues. Cool, bow hunters bitched, whined and cried as usual that they should be able to use them too. Morphed a good thing to just another cheat. Same with ML, started out as primitive weapon and people bitched, whined and cried they couldn’t get close enough and needed to use scopes other than 1X. People are not satisfied with opportunities to hunt, they want as big of an advantage as possible.

Now as far a ruining or trying to turn people away it’s not the opportunity it’s azzwipes like I saw at the gun club. New deer hunter trying to sight in his rifle, laying the barrel on the rest having trouble in the meantime 5 people stood there snickering, not 1 iota of help. That’s what’s killing this sport. Dwindling opportunity, high cost and azz holes not willing to help. They do bitch real good though.



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Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by atse
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
What then was the intent of the archery season? stick and sinew? flint arrowhead?
Actually, not a bad idea. Perhaps a return to traditional archery equip would be a good thing.
How would that be good? Many more wounded animals form using equipment that was never designed to offer quick, efficient kills? F uck is wrong with some of you

Taking irresponsible shots and wounding more critters very possibly does result from equipment restrictions, but it is also a different discussion.

If the answer was simply to cut back tags, people in some western states may never get a chance to hunt their home state. Ever. Effective management techniques for whitetail in Pennsylvania generally doesn’t work for mule deer, elk, etc. in the open areas and habitat of the west.



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All these boutique seasons are BS anyway. Ought only be 1 season for whatever critter. Shoot what you like.


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Originally Posted by Tyrone
All these boutique seasons are BS anyway. Ought only be 1 season for whatever critter. Shoot what you like.

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Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Well then, lets take that premise to the rifle season too. If irons were good enough for Elmer Keith, we don't need the PRS boys with the .338 Lapua's taking the long shot. All you need is Granddad's Sharps. After all, they took care of bison.

Elmer Keith used scope for the vast majority of his hunting and actually invented the .338 Lapua long before Lapua. It was the .338 KT and it was for long range elk shooting in scoped rifles.

The above shows how hard this discussion can be when so many simply don't understand the situation or the demand for Western Trophy Game.

Primative seasons such as archery or MLs allow more hunters to hunt due to lower success rates. We are losing hunters overall and that means fewer voters care about keeping hunting alive and well.

As tech increases the success rates in the primative seasons increase, which is not sustainable for keeping high trophy quality. Muzzle loaders should have much less reach than a modern scoped rifle and that is why those seasons can offer more hunting oppourtunity but less success.


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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Well then, lets take that premise to the rifle season too. If irons were good enough for Elmer Keith, we don't need the PRS boys with the .338 Lapua's taking the long shot. All you need is Granddad's Sharps. After all, they took care of bison.

Elmer Keith used scope for the vast majority of his hunting and actually invented the .338 Lapua long before Lapua. It was the .338 KT and it was for long range elk shooting in scoped rifles.

The above shows how hard this discussion can be when so many simply don't understand the situation or the demand for Western Trophy Game.

Primative seasons such as archery or MLs allow more hunters to hunt due to lower success rates. We are losing hunters overall and that means fewer voters care about keeping hunting alive and well.

As tech increases the success rates in the primative seasons increase, which is not sustainable for keeping high trophy quality. Muzzle loaders should have much less reach than a modern scoped rifle and that is why those seasons can offer more hunting oppourtunity but less success.


At what point does technology in archery and rifle need to be addressed?

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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Well then, lets take that premise to the rifle season too. If irons were good enough for Elmer Keith, we don't need the PRS boys with the .338 Lapua's taking the long shot. All you need is Granddad's Sharps. After all, they took care of bison.

Elmer Keith used scope for the vast majority of his hunting and actually invented the .338 Lapua long before Lapua. It was the .338 KT and it was for long range elk shooting in scoped rifles.

The above shows how hard this discussion can be when so many simply don't understand the situation or the demand for Western Trophy Game.

Primative seasons such as archery or MLs allow more hunters to hunt due to lower success rates. We are losing hunters overall and that means fewer voters care about keeping hunting alive and well.

As tech increases the success rates in the primative seasons increase, which is not sustainable for keeping high trophy quality. Muzzle loaders should have much less reach than a modern scoped rifle and that is why those seasons can offer more hunting oppourtunity but less success.

Colorado has no problems selling every tag they offer. They like most of the western states have so many restrictions that you almost need to be a law school graduate to comply with the regs. Buy a big game license in Virginia and you have tags for several speices, can hunt any public land in the state, and they don't really care what you use, as long as your properly licensed. Seems to work fine there.

I find it ironic for the man who posts videos of a girl shooting elk at extended ranges with a 243 is all about having a weapon that was fine in the 1700's.

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I’m patiently waiting for the scoped atlatl season to open up.

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Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Colorado has no problems selling every tag they offer. They like most of the western states have so many restrictions that you almost need to be a law school graduate to comply with the regs. Buy a big game license in Virginia and you have tags for several speices, can hunt any public land in the state, and they don't really care what you use, as long as your properly licensed. Seems to work fine there.

I’d be willing to bet VA has higher deer density than many western states, less pressure and way different dynamics due to private land levels, etc. than most western states. That, and whitetails can be hunted way harder than mule deer with less effect on the population. It is just their phenology.

Unfortunately, your comparison is apples to oranges. Whitetail, bear and turkeys out west are managed more closely to how they are in the east but high profile western only species like mule deer simply can’t be managed in the same way.

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Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Colorado has no problems selling every tag they offer. They like most of the western states have so many restrictions that you almost need to be a law school graduate to comply with the regs. Buy a big game license in Virginia and you have tags for several speices, can hunt any public land in the state, and they don't really care what you use, as long as your properly licensed. Seems to work fine there.

I find it ironic for the man who posts videos of a girl shooting elk at extended ranges with a 243 is all about having a weapon that was fine in the 1700's.

Colorado has primative seasons and you are correct those tags are in high demand because those tags offer oppourtunity but less success.

No magnified optic on muzzle loaders in CO so exactly what are you arguing?

Some of you think there is an unlimited supply of older age class trophy game out west but the demand far outstrips the supply and getting worse every year.

It just another example of those who don't understand to think an antlerless hunt in a unit well over carrying objective is the same as a trophy hunt in limited access units.


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I don't dispute whitetail population levels of east of the Mississippi vice west. I don't know about the other two species. The solution is fewer tags for higher populations. But it's a money thing, kinda like the legalization of marijuana. I have come to the conclusion that the Game departments out here want, need, to sell you a license, but they'd rather not have you be successful.

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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Colorado has no problems selling every tag they offer. They like most of the western states have so many restrictions that you almost need to be a law school graduate to comply with the regs. Buy a big game license in Virginia and you have tags for several speices, can hunt any public land in the state, and they don't really care what you use, as long as your properly licensed. Seems to work fine there.

I find it ironic for the man who posts videos of a girl shooting elk at extended ranges with a 243 is all about having a weapon that was fine in the 1700's.

Colorado has primative seasons and you are correct those tags are in high demand because those tags offer oppourtunity but less success.

No magnified optic on muzzle loaders in CO so exactly what are you arguing?

Some of you think there is an unlimited supply of older age class trophy game out west but the demand far outstrips the supply and getting worse every year.

It just another example of those who don't understand to think an antlerless hunt in a unit well over carrying objective is the same as a trophy hunt in limited access units.

I am arguing for the right to have an optic on an MZ. To use a saboted bullet. To allow an inline. To use BH 209, and 209 primers. Not all states allow it. The MZ loads from the muzzle. You have one shot. With one shot, I'd like every advantage I can get to make a better kill, and be more accurate.

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Yes, you eastern guys can’t apply your whitetail logic to western hunting. Totally different dynamic. One season, use what you want, doesn’t effect me, would never work out here because that essentially becomes a rifle hunt. Which means way too many animals would get killed. Unless tag allotments were cut dramatically. In which case, we’d never get to hunt.

Stay in your lane Pennsylvanians.

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Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Colorado has no problems selling every tag they offer. They like most of the western states have so many restrictions that you almost need to be a law school graduate to comply with the regs. Buy a big game license in Virginia and you have tags for several speices, can hunt any public land in the state, and they don't really care what you use, as long as your properly licensed. Seems to work fine there.

I find it ironic for the man who posts videos of a girl shooting elk at extended ranges with a 243 is all about having a weapon that was fine in the 1700's.

Colorado has primative seasons and you are correct those tags are in high demand because those tags offer oppourtunity but less success.

No magnified optic on muzzle loaders in CO so exactly what are you arguing?

Some of you think there is an unlimited supply of older age class trophy game out west but the demand far outstrips the supply and getting worse every year.

It just another example of those who don't understand to think an antlerless hunt in a unit well over carrying objective is the same as a trophy hunt in limited access units.

I am arguing for the right to have an optic on an MZ. To use a saboted bullet. To allow an inline. To use BH 209, and 209 primers. Not all states allow it. The MZ loads from the muzzle. You have one shot. With one shot, I'd like every advantage I can get to make a better kill, and be more accurate.


One of the problems is, now muzzleloaders are being made to shoot 7-800 yards, so there making these into a single shot rifle this in itself creates its own issues. Not many can make a "clean shot" that far with a rifle, let alone a muzzleloader.

I also agree that sales of tags outweigh the management of deer or elk.

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Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Lee_Woiteshek
Colorado has no problems selling every tag they offer. They like most of the western states have so many restrictions that you almost need to be a law school graduate to comply with the regs. Buy a big game license in Virginia and you have tags for several speices, can hunt any public land in the state, and they don't really care what you use, as long as your properly licensed. Seems to work fine there.

I find it ironic for the man who posts videos of a girl shooting elk at extended ranges with a 243 is all about having a weapon that was fine in the 1700's.

Colorado has primative seasons and you are correct those tags are in high demand because those tags offer oppourtunity but less success.

No magnified optic on muzzle loaders in CO so exactly what are you arguing?

Some of you think there is an unlimited supply of older age class trophy game out west but the demand far outstrips the supply and getting worse every year.

It just another example of those who don't understand to think an antlerless hunt in a unit well over carrying objective is the same as a trophy hunt in limited access units.

I am arguing for the right to have an optic on an MZ. To use a saboted bullet. To allow an inline. To use BH 209, and 209 primers. Not all states allow it. The MZ loads from the muzzle. You have one shot. With one shot, I'd like every advantage I can get to make a better kill, and be more accurate.
You can. It’s called general rifle season.

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Originally Posted by gunchamp
I feel that the ones that always pollute these threads with their bullchit anti-crossbow and anti-scope stuff are probably barely hunting anymore due to age. The same fuggers that have bitched and cried about Sunday hunting here in PA. They fight any change. Why is it so bad to give more people a chance at getting into the woods and killing game? If you want to pretend your living in the 1800s, then have at it. Stop ruining opportunity for other hunters to get out and use the equipment they chose to use. If over harvest is the issue, then cut tags back. Its not hard. Why do some of you fight so hard to turn people away from our great sport?
Managing elk and mule deer herds in the Intermountain west is different than managing white tails in suburban Pennsylvania.

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Elmer Keith probably had deteriorting vision as many do as time goes by.

I would like to see a Handgun season, not scoped bolt action's per se, but sixguns, semi-auto, with your traditional handgun rounds. Just a thought.

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