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I was under the impression that flat bands weren’t used until after 1945. Is this a true 1944 manufactured rifle or did it bring this price due to condition?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1020227840

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Tilt! Tilt! Tilt! The old pinball machines whining out their alarm and this reported sale Model 94 ad share something in common. smile The serial of that carbine at 1400594 is other than the claimed manufacture year of 1944 as at least into 1946! See the following excerpt from a Commentary by Burt concerning Winchester most definitive Polishing Room Records @:

https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/model-94-war-years/
(scroll Thread midships for on-point reference quoted below)

****************************************************************************
BERT:
"The Polishing Room serialization records are not off at all. Instead, it is the DOM information published by past authors that is off by as much as four years.

In answer to your question(s)

Anyone out there done any serious research into War Time Records? Are there any recent books that address the issue?

Yes, I have completed a considerable amount of research in regards to this subject.

Serial number 1313055 was manufactured in late December of 1941. The last Model 94 manufactured before production was temporarily halted to support the War efforts was serial number 1343183 on 8/23/1942. Production was resumed on a full time basis on 9/24/1945, with serial number 1343271 listed as the last one made on that day. By 12/29/1945, serial numbers had reached 1352066. The annual production numbers were as follows..."

1941 – 53,738

1942 – 29,882

1943 – 0

1944 – 13

1945 – 8,870

***************************************************************************


Bert dated my own Model 94, in 25-35, Sn 1344501, as manufactured in October 1945 according to Polishing Room Records. I also have a Model 64 in .32 WS, Sn 1391833. Pix below.

So concerning the Model 94 the subject of this Thread... Where the 1944 date came from appears a more than simply "WILD A** guestimate", taking liberties provided by the Winchester Firm Website which simply lists 1943-1948 production Serial Numbers as unknown. Had it been authenticated as such '44 production, that would have been an interesting collectability feature "value added"! So in that reference, to my mind a definite "Yes" a material factor in objective valuation to my mind. Whether such false wartime production actually played a part in the actual bid achieved; I'm not up on values today sufficiently to speculate. The "band issue", as likely the actual production date may well explain the apparent flat band discrepancy as not one at all!

Best!
John

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Last edited by iskra; 12/03/23.
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It really doesn’t matter that it wasn’t made in 1944, the seller used some published guide that stated that year for that serial number. Even though it may be wrong, the gun brought the money for the condition. The last 90% of the value can be attributed to the last 10% of condition…


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Thanks Shrapnel. That last sentence defines a Pareto principle of gun value.

Iskra,
I have a model 94 32 WS that serials about 300 after yours. Probably went out within a week of each other.

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Red spruce: Damn! That is a LOT of money for a nice old Model 94.
Times - they are a changin.
I have bought and sold 25 - 30 similar Rifles during my time and I think THE most I ever sold one for was $250.00!
That was 40+ years ago now though.
Wish't I would have kept them all now.
If only one could see into the future.
Thanks for the link.
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I have a question for you that understand these things.

The one on gun broker does not have the printing or embossing on the upper tang. What determined if a rifle had it or not?

So my model 94, no 1296374 , would be pre-war ? about what vintage ?

Mine has the printing on the upper tang.

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Originally Posted by ipopum
I have a question for you that understand these things.

The one on gun broker does not have the printing or embossing on the upper tang. What determined if a rifle had it or not?

So my model 94, no 1296374 , would be pre-war ? about what vintage ?

Mine has the printing on the upper tang.

Your gun went through the polishing room in 1941, pre-war.
Tang markings were changed over the years, not sure but I think this may have happened when they stopped factory drilling the tang for a tang sight. The receiver configuration itself was also changed around this time.


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Thanks for that.

Do you know about the printing on the upper tang ?

I see some with it and some without it. All are supposed to be from the same time frame.

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I see you answered that as well. Thanks so much.

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Originally Posted by shrapnel
It really doesn’t matter that it wasn’t made in 1944, the seller used some published guide that stated that year for that serial number. Even though it may be wrong, the gun brought the money for the condition. The last 90% of the value can be attributed to the last 10% of condition…

My take clarified. I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. You're saying that the carbine was worth the sale price without considering any other factors alleged as value enhancements. That's the "X" equation I couldn't answer because I'm not up on values. What I'm here saying, that a buyer has a right to rely on seller representations.

If the 1944 year of production assertion was important in the buyer's decision to purchase. Then, the mischaracterization of the date of production was "material" and a "seller" cannot say, such an error is irrelevant. Since the seller considered it sufficiently relevant to assert in the ad, he effectively promoted it as a "purchase factor of "relevance". Because many potential purchasers may disregard it, doesn't mean it's irrelevant. (For me, having a Model 94 of which only 13 were produced in a wartime year. Fair to assume almost surely there was some compelling factor in diverting production resources from the war effort! Some strong Factory motivation afoot. Possibly special customers of influence! Whatever, it would be relevant to me!)

The buyer did not achieve the benefit of the bargain offered. If the DOM was irrelevant to that buyer; no harm, no foul. IF it was relevant to that one buyer who depended on that information accuracy, the seller can't say the bargain was sufficient anyway. That's not the way the laws of "detrimental reliance" work. And what if the Seller should claim a "good faith error"? The question in law of whose error and who should suffer for it. The answer is 'seller error', seller to suffer consequences!

My definite take!
Best!
John

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Originally Posted by ipopum
I see you answered that as well. Thanks so much.


Some additional info…..

- the plain tang was instituted when Winchester began post-war production
- Winchester stopped d&t the upper tang for a tang sight in June, 1942
- the receiver frame reconfiguration occurred midway through Flat Band production in 1947


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Here is another that went for extreme price but to my eyes looks like a run of the mill post war 94.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1021511126

I see similar condition rifles go for $600-$800. This one had multiple bidders (5) after the bids went over $1k so not the usual “two fools and one of their $ are soon parted” that can occur on a rifle auction. What am I missing?

I’m finding myself drawn more to 94s just as I see sold prices (most that is) are dropping.


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