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I ALWAYS hunt with one in the chamber and the rifle on safe and NEVER point my rifle at something I'm not willing to shoot.

Anything more complex than that leaves a lot of room for error and confusion in a potentially bad time or situation.

Nuff said....

$bob$


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I always have one in the chamber while out hunting with a rifle unless climbing over a fence or into a stand then its time to empty the chamber.

Now with a shotgun out hunting the only time I remove the round is when I'm getting out of my layout blind while hunting waterfowl. I don't like the idea of checking decoys and maybe my dog or someone else's jumping into the blind and setting the gun off while I'm infront of the blind. So I always remove the round and stick the barrel into the floor of the blind pointing into the dirt and make anyone hunting with me do the same, if they don't and I watch everyone else too, then I pickup my decoys and go home or they go home...


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This is sort of a side channel, but up where I shoot a lot it's a pretty informal range. Where I set up my "bench", I have my back to the logging road that gets you up there, which gives me the willies when I get my puffs and muffs on! Anyway, when I go down range to change targets or tape up my old holes or whatever, I don't just take any ammo out of the rifle, I pull the dang BOLT and put it in my pocket! Last thing I want is someone sneaking over there and shooting me with my own damn rifle, and it'd be pretty easy up there to get away with it, and get the $4k to $8k in rifles I usually have with me...

Anyway...

-jeff


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Jeff,

When I go shooting I actually carry one of my rifles loaded with me to change the targets for exactly the same reasons you stated. Your not alone. wink

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Yeah, I do that too most of the time... usually I have my little AR up there to screw with while the barrels are cooling. Even still I'll pull that bolt though!

-jeff


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I thought I was "paranoid pete" when I had concerns like this at the range. It appears I'm not alone, and they may actually be justified. Both sides of the sword at once.

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I keep a couple rounds in my pocket and open the bolt and carry the rifle with me to change/check the targets. some one could easily take the rifle while away from the bench..


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Jeff - Carry with 1 round in the chamber, firing pin down on safe. Sorry about the truck.


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Good point. I am starting my 8 year old hunting and this is a safty thing that when you think about it should be done with a
young new hunter.


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Yea its loaded unless I am crossing a fence or climbing over brush. An unloaded gun is no good when you spot your game animal.


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Does anyone hunt with an unloaded muzzleloader until they sight an animal?


I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubblegum.

Originally Posted by safariman
I do tend to fit in well wherever I go in person.

Originally Posted by Fireball2
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Originally Posted by Bricktop
Does anyone hunt with an unloaded muzzleloader until they sight an animal?


That's kind of comparing apples to oranges. I can load a round from the magazine in about one second. Takes me considerably longer with my muzzlestuffers.

Mechanical safeties can and sometimes do fail and to rely on them is to accept a certain amount of risk. When hunting non-dangerous game it is a risk I often choose not to accept.

Human safeties are even less reliable. People can and do make mistakes - and rather frequently. In my experience people who suggest they are error free in their gun handling are simply wrong.

This is not to say I don't hunt with a round in the chamber. as sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. But I don't ignore the additional risk when doing so.

No one has ever been shot with an EMPTY chamber - intentionally OR accidently.
Many people have been shot with a LOADED chamber � intentionally AND accidently.

Not trying to tell anyone what to do, just pointing out some facts.




Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Does anyone hunt with an unloaded muzzleloader until they sight an animal?
That's kind of comparing apples to oranges.
No it's not. A round in the chamber is just as live as a capped and loaded muzzleloader. You're just trying to create a justification to explain your reasoning.

Cautious and attentive gun handling trumps any mechanical "safety" any day. More people have been shot with "unloaded" guns than loaded ones.


I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubblegum.

Originally Posted by safariman
I do tend to fit in well wherever I go in person.

Originally Posted by Fireball2
The campfire is the most outside exposure I get. No TV, no newspaper.
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We've hashed this stuff out on this thread- and then some- just so you know... there's a wealth of humor, blood and guts, outright insults, friendships forged and lost, arguments sharpened... all on these blighted 23 pages of this thread! :-)

I think your post (Coyote Hunter) is reasonable and well-stated. And I am not at all interested in revisiting the horse we so thoroughly beat to a dusty depression already in this thread. That said, I do take issue with this:

"No one has ever been shot with an EMPTY chamber - intentionally OR accidently."

For a couple reasons. First, for a gun handler to assume that they are carrying a "safe" firearm because it's empty can, we know, be a recipe for disaster. I carry chambered and I know, beyond any doubt, that I am carrying a loaded firearm and must act accordingly. Not saying YOU would do this, but it's pretty easy to imagine some bucko being careless because hey, his gun is empty.

Second, many gun accidents happen during the loading, unloading, and action-manipulation stages of operation a gun. When you combine the heat of the moment- buck fever- with the necessity to load your firearm, I see potential for problems there that might even completely counterbalance whatever extra safety a guy might achieve by carrying unchambered! It's certainly debateable, at least.

Anyone driving to go hunt in a truck with mud tires is risking himself and everyone else on the highway MORE than if they carried chambered (assuming proper gun handling). A vehicle is the device by far most likely to kill you violently, and by far the most likely device you will operate that could kill someone else violently. So, if you are using mud tires on the freeway (poor wet traction, etc) then... think about that. If you've lifted your truck, for shame! And if you are going 10 mph over the speed limit, don't even bother to tell ANYONE about how they are unsafe carrying hot.

Just my .02. Again. :-)

-jeff

Last edited by Jeff_Olsen; 01/03/08.

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Originally Posted by Bricktop
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

Originally Posted by Bricktop
Does anyone hunt with an unloaded muzzleloader until they sight an animal?

That's kind of comparing apples to oranges.


No it's not. A round in the chamber is just as live as a capped and loaded muzzleloader. You're just trying to create a justification to explain your reasoning.

Cautious and attentive gun handling trumps any mechanical "safety" any day. More people have been shot with "unloaded" guns than loaded ones.


Sorry, no one has ever been shot with an unloaded gun � it is a physical impossibility. Many people have been shot with a rifle that was believed to be unloaded, but believing a gun is unloaded does not make it so.

I agree that gun handlers need to be cautious and attentive but even the most cautious and attentive handlers have lapses, just as mechanical safeties can fail. Over the years I have seen many, many cases of human failure in this area but only one - ONE - case of a safety failure. The safest situation is an empty chamber � period.

I also agree that a capped and loaded muzzlestuffer is as dangerous as a loaded rifle. The Department of Wildlife in my home state of Colorado considers an uncapped muzzleloader to be �unloaded�, whether or not powder and bullet are loaded in the barrel. I consider such a condition to be �partially loaded� but agree with the DOW that an uncapped muzzlestuffer is far safer than one that is both loaded and capped. In fact, I often remove the cap but leave the barrel loaded with powder and bullet in situations where I would unload a cartridge rifle.

But as I said, apples and oranges. Empty chambers are often practical when rifle hunting, rarely so when hunting with a muzzlestuffer. Unless in deep woods I rarely have a rifle shot opportunity where I couldn�t load first, then shoot. The same situations are often far too fleeting to do so with my muzzlestuffers, however. This year alone I took a buck mulie and two cow elk. All three could have been taken starting with an empty rifle chamber with time to spare and while all three could easily have been taken starting with a loaded and capped muzzlestuffer, a muzzlestuffer with no powder or bullet in the chamber would have meant no game in all three situations.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Originally Posted by Jeff_Olsen


I think your post (Coyote Hunter) is reasonable and well-stated. And I am not at all interested in revisiting the horse we so thoroughly beat to a dusty depression already in this thread. That said, I do take issue with this:

"No one has ever been shot with an EMPTY chamber - intentionally OR accidently."

For a couple reasons. First, for a gun handler to assume that they are carrying a "safe" firearm because it's empty can, we know, be a recipe for disaster. I carry chambered and I know, beyond any doubt, that I am carrying a loaded firearm and must act accordingly. Not saying YOU would do this, but it's pretty easy to imagine some bucko being careless because hey, his gun is empty.


As noted in my response to Bricktop above, believing a rifle is unloaded does not make it so. Mistaken beliefs are often contributing factors in a disaster, but the number of people who have been shot with unloaded rifles is exactly ZERO. The number is considerably higher for people who have been shot with rifles mistakenly BELIEVED to be unloaded.

Quote

Second, many gun accidents happen during the loading, unloading, and action-manipulation stages of operation a gun. When you combine the heat of the moment- buck fever- with the necessity to load your firearm, I see potential for problems there that might even completely counterbalance whatever extra safety a guy might achieve by carrying unchambered! It's certainly debateable, at least.


I agree that many accidents occur while loading and unloading firearms, but most that I am aware of have occurred while in camp or at the vehicles, good places to be unloaded in my book. It would be interesting to see actual statistics on this matter.

That said, no one has ever been shot with an unloaded firearm but many have been shot with firearms that have just been loaded. In all such cases human failure is a major contributing factor.

In fact, I cannot think of a situation in which someone has been shot where human failure was not the prime contributing factor. In other words, a case in which proper gun handling technique was followed flawlessly.

Quote

Anyone driving to go hunt in a truck with mud tires is risking himself and everyone else on the highway MORE than if they carried chambered (assuming proper gun handling). A vehicle is the device by far most likely to kill you violently, and by far the most likely device you will operate that could kill someone else violently. So, if you are using mud tires on the freeway (poor wet traction, etc) then... think about that. If you've lifted your truck, for shame! And if you are going 10 mph over the speed limit, don't even bother to tell ANYONE about how they are unsafe carrying hot.

Just my .02. Again. :-)

-jeff


Jeff �

Understand that I am not against carrying hot � I do it often, just as I often carry cold. My contention is simply that loaded chambers are less safe than empty ones. You�re not likely to get killed in your lifted truck with mud tires when you�re parked off the road.




Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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I think the reason some contend that a person has or can be shot with an unloaded weapon is that they either don't understand the definition of unloaded, or they don't know how or simply are too lazy to check properly. Coyote Hunter is quite right; an unloaded gun cannot shoot.

And having had the experience of hunting with a rifle I thought was chambered and hot - and missed an opportunity because it wasn't, I know that the mistake could as easily be made in reverse. "I thought" does not make anything so. "I thought" must be replaced by "I know." And while the intent of "never point a weapon at something you are not willing to shoot" is a good idea and the motive behind it pure, the truth is, that barrel is going to be pointed in a lot of ways I don't want to send a bullet. I am simply not willing to walk around with a bullet stopping cap on the end of my barrel just so I can carry hot with near impunity.

The level of awareness one must have to safely carry hot requires more attention than I am willing to spare when I am hunting on a minute by minute, hour by hour basis. While I know one can become accustomed to it - which usually means one's attention to it becomes less - I will not hunt with folks I care so little about that I am willing to allow that to happen. To me, it makes more sense to keep the focus on locating game and not worry about whether everyone's barrels are pointed safely at all times- because if one really cares about their own skin, they need to be attentive to all with whom they hunt, especially so when chambers are hot.

Are there times when a chamber needs to be loaded? Of course, but the act of doing that, especially if the rifle is carried ready to go, is very simple and quick. A great majority of the time, especially where and how I hunt, that is easily accomplished. (It's surprising too, how much one can learn about animal behavior in the moment it takes to chamber a round while both of you are aware of each other. It's often not what one might assume either.)


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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by Bricktop
More people have been shot with "unloaded" guns than loaded ones.
Sorry, no one has ever been shot with an unloaded gun � it is a physical impossibility. Many people have been shot with a rifle that was believed to be unloaded, but believing a gun is unloaded does not make it so.
Exactly how thick-headed are you? Look up the words "irony" and "metaphor" in a dictionary. Get someone to explain them to you. My kids understand the statement I made.


Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
The safest situation is an empty chamber � period.
No, the safest situation is to treat every gun as if it were loaded. Exclamation point.


Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
The Department of Wildlife in my home state of Colorado considers an uncapped muzzleloader to be �unloaded�, whether or not powder and bullet are loaded in the barrel.
Couldn't care less what your "home state" considers; that's not the focus of this discussion.


Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
But as I said, apples and oranges.
Both grow on trees and the metaphor for this discussion is that a loaded gun is a loaded gun is a loaded gun. You're trying to justify your reasoning through some rather creative circular "logic."


I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubblegum.

Originally Posted by safariman
I do tend to fit in well wherever I go in person.

Originally Posted by Fireball2
The campfire is the most outside exposure I get. No TV, no newspaper.
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Originally Posted by Bricktop
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by Bricktop
More people have been shot with "unloaded" guns than loaded ones.
Sorry, no one has ever been shot with an unloaded gun – it is a physical impossibility. Many people have been shot with a rifle that was believed to be unloaded, but believing a gun is unloaded does not make it so.
Exactly how thick-headed are you? Look up the words "irony" and "metaphor" in a dictionary. Get someone to explain them to you. My kids understand the statement I made.


Originally Posted by Klikitarik
I think the reason some contend that a person has or can be shot with an unloaded weapon is that they either don't understand the definition of unloaded, or they don't know how or simply are too lazy to check properly. Coyote Hunter is quite right; an unloaded gun cannot shoot.



BTW, I did find those terms. They were located on either side of "cavalier" which I found alongside the 13th definition for "unloaded": "a casually formed belief, sometimes held about weapons; cavalier" wink


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Originally Posted by Klikitarik
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by Bricktop
More people have been shot with "unloaded" guns than loaded ones.
Sorry, no one has ever been shot with an unloaded gun – it is a physical impossibility. Many people have been shot with a rifle that was believed to be unloaded, but believing a gun is unloaded does not make it so.
Exactly how thick-headed are you? Look up the words "irony" and "metaphor" in a dictionary. Get someone to explain them to you. My kids understand the statement I made.


Originally Posted by Klikitarik
I think the reason some contend that a person has or can be shot with an unloaded weapon is that they either don't understand the definition of unloaded, or they don't know how or simply are too lazy to check properly. Coyote Hunter is quite right; an unloaded gun cannot shoot.
BTW, I did find those terms. They were located on either side of "cavalier" which I found alongside the 13th definition for "unloaded": "a casually formed belief, sometimes held about weapons; cavalier" wink
Do you or do you not agree that ALL firearms should be treated as loaded weapons? (I really don't want to discuss the differences between figurative and literal speech.)


I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubblegum.

Originally Posted by safariman
I do tend to fit in well wherever I go in person.

Originally Posted by Fireball2
The campfire is the most outside exposure I get. No TV, no newspaper.
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