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this may be an easier way for me to find out what the program does.

so.... what do you use it for? What features appealed to you during the purchase decision?


Whatever you are willing to put up with, is exactly what you will have.

When your ship comes in. ... make sure you are willing to unload it.

PAYPAL, sucks and I will never use them again. I recommend you do the same.
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Among other things,

� to determine the optimum powder to use for 90�100% case fill and designated maximum chamber pressures

� estimated recoil

� estimated trajectories at designated points and ranges (using the included, interactive exterior-ballistics program QuickTARGET)

� miscellaneous included information such as point of "all burnt," percent of powder charge burned, muzzle pressure at bullet exit, effects of load variations, ballistic efficiency, etc

� pressure and velocity curves, from the ignition of the powder charge to the exit of the bullet


Unparalleled way to explore the ballistics effects of all the "what if?" scenarios that I can imagine!


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Be prepared to be overwhelmed by your first exposure to QuickLOAD. It's not a namby-pamby, shallow, or hit-or-miss program. Its learning curve is not for the impatient or lazy. It demands a lot of input, and of course it gives you garbage if you feed it garbage to munch. But although it's powerful and demanding, it's a joy to use.

Having four complicated windows on your screen at once can be rather disconcerting at first � but once you understand 'em and see why they're there, you'll love 'em.

QuickLOAD, I think all users will agree, is addictive. I can not imagine anyone ever out-growing it. And I'm amazed that it doesn't cost a lot more.


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blammer Offline OP
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thanks for the info.

to me it seems like something I would RARELY use....

as I'm not into wildcatting and off book reloading...


Whatever you are willing to put up with, is exactly what you will have.

When your ship comes in. ... make sure you are willing to unload it.

PAYPAL, sucks and I will never use them again. I recommend you do the same.
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I consider QuickLOAD a vastly superior substitute for a collection of handloading manuals.

Each manual reports results from one gun for each cartridge � a poor basis for assuming that the listed loads will produce similar results in your one other gun.

QuickLOAD, on the other hand, uses equations that ballisticians have laboriously derived, over many years, from the results from millions of loads in thousands of guns and cartridges. So it has a definite edge over a report of the results from a very limited number of loads from only one gun and one cartridge.

As a predicting device, QuickLOAD is vastly superior to manuals, IMHO. It's as useful for factory cartridges as it is for wildcats.

Anyway, this forum (as I understand it) isn't an ad to persuade shooters to buy QuickLOAD � it's for owners and prospective owners of QuickLOAD and other ballistics software to post their tips, questions, and other comments.


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blammer Offline OP
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I agree that this forum is not for advertising, but if I don't know what QL does or can do how am I to ask questions?


Whatever you are willing to put up with, is exactly what you will have.

When your ship comes in. ... make sure you are willing to unload it.

PAYPAL, sucks and I will never use them again. I recommend you do the same.
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I with Blammer I have read about Exbal and a few others but I don't know Quickload

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Originally Posted by blammer
I agree that this forum is not for advertising, but if I don't know what QL does or can do how am I to ask questions?

Please don't be defensive, my friend. Nobody here has any intention of scolding you. My comment re advertising was meant as definition for everyone, not admonition aimed at you.

If this forum flies, all that you have to do is watch, and you'll see (I hope!) a lot of helpful commentary on any number of ballistics programs. Then you'll know what questions to ask, and you'll see others ask a lot of 'em before you do.


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blammer Offline OP
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no offense taken at all!

didn't mean to "sound" that way...

I'll be watching for sure!

thanks!


Whatever you are willing to put up with, is exactly what you will have.

When your ship comes in. ... make sure you are willing to unload it.

PAYPAL, sucks and I will never use them again. I recommend you do the same.
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Blammer, did you look at the info on the Neconos web site?

http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm


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I'm assuming that QL allows the user to plug in various non traditional powders for a cartridge of choice.

Examples would be IMR 4895, H4895 & IMR 4064 in the 270 Winchester.

These powder have proven to be extremely accurate in my rifle in NRA Silhouette shooting but are almost entirely ingnored for this round in board discussions and in some manuals.

Just found this from Tod in another thread. What say you, Mr Howell.

BTW, thanks Tod.

Originally Posted by Tod
QuickLoad is particularly useful when you're going somewhere unusual, like wildcatting or looking at powders that aren't normally used in particular application. I've found it great for developing subsonic loads, for example.


Last edited by 284LUVR; 01/26/08.

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I don't know anything about QL, but I've always wondered if it would do what "284LUVR" suggested, which is analyze non-traditional powders for certain cartridges.

Also, I came into a bunch of Vectan powder, but the Vectan manual doesn't list loads for some cartridges which seem natural to the "speed" of the powder--I'm wondering if QL would be of some help with that type of situation.

I hope this forum takes off, too. I'm sure there are things some of the programming gurus at the Campfire have done in Excel and other programs not normally associated with reloading that would be pretty interesting.

Where can one purchase QL?

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Order it from Neconos. It's $150, but well worth it if you do a lot of experimenting when reloading.

I use it and QuickDesign to see if wildcats are worth pursuing.


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Originally Posted by mdatlanta
� I came into a bunch of Vectan powder, but the Vectan manual doesn't list loads for some cartridges which seem natural to the "speed" of the powder--I'm wondering if QL would be of some help with that type of situation. � Where can one purchase QL?

The latest version of QuickLOAD includes SNPE powders Vectan 7, Vectan 9, Vectan 10, and Vectan 11.

Your can add other powders if you know the technical specs or characteristics of them.

You can get QuickLOAD (which includes QuickTARGET) and QuickDESIGN from the importer, Nostalgia Enterprises (NECO) in Benicia, California. They're German software, but never fear � their displays are in excellent English.


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As Ken said these are my primary uses�
� estimated trajectories at designated points and ranges
� pressure and velocity curves, from the ignition of the powder charge to the exit of the bullet

PLUS
Using bullets which do not publish Load data.. for example a Rem 300 Gr. .458 cal bullet in a 450 Marlin� I start with beginning loads for a Manual like Speer� and run the numbers. Then I have a starting point� I would buy it if this was all it did.


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Originally Posted by Ken Howell
I consider QuickLOAD a vastly superior substitute for a collection of handloading manuals.

Each manual reports results from one gun for each cartridge � a poor basis for assuming that the listed loads will produce similar results in your one other gun.

QuickLOAD, on the other hand, uses equations that ballisticians have laboriously derived, over many years, from the results from millions of loads in thousands of guns and cartridges. So it has a definite edge over a report of the results from a very limited number of loads from only one gun and one cartridge.

As a predicting device, QuickLOAD is vastly superior to manuals, IMHO. It's as useful for factory cartridges as it is for wildcats.

Anyway, this forum (as I understand it) isn't an ad to persuade shooters to buy QuickLOAD � it's for owners and prospective owners of QuickLOAD and other ballistics software to post their tips, questions, and other comments.

Ken Howell:
Based on my somewhat limited experience using Quickload, and a measure of common sense, I am convinced of the following.

Quickload is a poor substitute for even a SINGLE loading manual.

Quickload predicts pressures. On the basis of �equations�, it can�t always predict correctly, what your pressure will be, as well as a Loading Manual does, BUT you will have a tendency to believe the predictions, especially after a few times when you find that your pressures/velocities are very similar to what Quickload predicted for you.

You will learn to trust them too much, and that�s where you can get into trouble.

Loading Manuals are based on actual testing, and are written to err on the safe side, and that�s a better way to go even for the most learned handloaders, IMO.

I consider it irresponsible to recommend that someone use Only, Quickload for a loading guide. They do so at their own risk.

Thanks
Smitty of the North



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I consider it ANOTHER tool for developing loads, not a replacement for manuals and chronos.

I will add that I had four or five load development samples where the QL readouts mirrored my crude pressure indicator notes almost to a 'T'. i.e... where QL said 'hot load', I started getting pressure indications. The velocities that QL calculated were also within 40-80fps of my chrono'd results.

Again, I would say that it's just another tool for load development. A very good tool at that, but I still like to look through three or four manuals just to get my comfort level up.

Also, FWIW, once your start inputting your own data, you might be surprised at the variations between case capacities of your brass. You will notice that slight changes in case capacity can have significant changes in the calculated results which is what many folks preach about when asked for 'pet loads' on internet forums.

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kelbro:
I guess, I'd have to agree.

My caution is that it's so easy to skip the loading manuals, and use only QL. You can encounter pressure signs with a load that QL says is perfectly safe. I think it would be much better to test your load, and then put it into QL.

QL allows you to imput your case capacity, and that's seems like a prudent thing to do.

I think that things like bearing surface, bullet hardness, and which primer, could be significant too. As I recall, none of these things can be input.

My experience in using it, was such that I decided to stop using a "computer model" for my handloading, and elected to not buy my own copy of the program.
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Yeah Smitty, reading my post over again, I failed to convey that idea very well.

I got a copy of QL and checked their data against loads that I had already developed and saw the correlations.

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The loads I check against quickload showed that QL was pretty conservative.


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Ken/Tod,

Many thanks for the info on Vectan powders and where to order QL.

Mike

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It should be noted that both QuickLoad and reloading manuals are only a guide. You should always work up you own loads. I no longer have access to a pressure transducer and other equipment to validate loads, so can't confirm the accuracy of QuickLoad other than velocity predictions, which tend to be pretty good.

Using the data QL generates, I have yet to see anything that looks dangerous. Most loads are on the low side when compared to loading manuals. But everything is fallible.


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Originally Posted by SmittyoftheNorth
Originally Posted by Ken Howell
I consider QuickLOAD a vastly superior substitute for a collection of handloading manuals. Each manual reports results from one gun for each cartridge � a poor basis for assuming that the listed loads will produce similar results in your one other gun. QuickLOAD, on the other hand, uses equations that ballisticians have laboriously derived, over many years, from the results from millions of loads in thousands of guns and cartridges. So it has a definite edge over a report of the results from a very limited number of loads from only one gun and one cartridge.

As a predicting device, QuickLOAD is vastly superior to manuals, IMHO. It's as useful for factory cartridges as it is for wildcats.


Ken Howell:
Based on my somewhat limited experience using Quickload, and a measure of common sense, I am convinced of the following.

Quickload is a poor substitute for even a SINGLE loading manual.

Quickload predicts pressures. On the basis of �equations�, it can�t always predict correctly, what your pressure will be, as well as a Loading Manual does, BUT you will have a tendency to believe the predictions, especially after a few times when you find that your pressures/velocities are very similar to what Quickload predicted for you.

You will learn to trust them too much, and that�s where you can get into trouble.

Loading Manuals are based on actual testing, and are written to err on the safe side, and that�s a better way to go even for the most learned handloaders, IMO.

I consider it irresponsible to recommend that someone use Only, Quickload for a loading guide. They do so at their own risk.

Thanks
Smitty of the North


Smitty, I've got to disagree with your statements here. One ALWAYS assumes risk in this avocation and WHATEVER reference one uses to reload should be backed off at least 10% because of the difference in many factors, not the least of which could be the difference between rifle chambers. But even using a different brand of case or batch of powder than the reloading manuals are referencing could be enought to cause problems.

My almost 50 years of reloading experience and my programming background (I write my own ballistics software to check QL and LFAD) tell me the software is superior for predicting loads because, as Ken says, the manuals are based on data from one rifle. If you trust any reference for a starting load, you should find another hobby.

All one has to know about reloading is that you're pouring high explosives into a little brass tube and setting it off inches from your own face.



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TheBigJonson:

That's OK.

Of course, there's risk involved in handloading. Handloading is fraught with risky practices. I�m sure there are other things that you would do, and I wouldn�t, and vise versa.

I consider it more risky to trust a computer model, over actual tests from "one rifle", or "one test barrel", or many of them. One doesn't have to use only one Loading Manual, BTW.

You can�t input every variable into QL. To me, that makes actual tests better, even if it may be from only �one rifle�.

You can use Loading Manuals in conjunction with QL, but many won�t do that.

QL can lead you into trouble, and that�s why it didn�t work for me, and why I wanted to offer that possibility. Hopefully, it will prevent others from rushing into the belief that QL is the end-all for handloading.

Smitty of the North




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Originally Posted by SmittyoftheNorth
Ken Howell: � Based on my somewhat limited experience using Quickload, and a measure of common sense, I am convinced of the following.

Quickload is a poor substitute for even a SINGLE loading manual.

Quickload predicts pressures. On the basis of �equations�, it can�t always predict correctly, what your pressure will be, as well as a Loading Manual does, BUT you will have a tendency to believe the predictions, especially after a few times when you find that your pressures/velocities are very similar to what Quickload predicted for you.

You will learn to trust them too much, and that�s where you can get into trouble.

Loading Manuals are based on actual testing, and are written to err on the safe side, and that�s a better way to go even for the most learned handloaders, IMO.

I consider it irresponsible to recommend that someone use Only, Quickload for a loading guide. They do so at their own risk. �

If you knew and understood the criteria, facts, principles, and logic that support my conclusion, you'd agree with me.

BTW, I don't remember recommending that anyone use only QuickLOAD as a loading guide, and I definitely remember saying that any trial load has to be tested in a specific rifle. Please don't attribute to me anything that I haven't said, especially when you want to discredit it.

Limited experience with QL, like limited experience with handloading, is a damn poor basis for offering useful advice to others, anyway.


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I had accurate handloads for most of my rifles before I bought Quick Load. I use it to compare not only chamber pressure, but muzzle pressure and barrel time of potential new loads to the old, proven loads.
I could probably compare pressure graphs of the proven load to the potential load, but haven't bothered yet.

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Originally Posted by Ken Howell
Originally Posted by SmittyoftheNorth
Ken Howell: � Based on my somewhat limited experience using Quickload, and a measure of common sense, I am convinced of the following.

Quickload is a poor substitute for even a SINGLE loading manual.

Quickload predicts pressures. On the basis of �equations�, it can�t always predict correctly, what your pressure will be, as well as a Loading Manual does, BUT you will have a tendency to believe the predictions, especially after a few times when you find that your pressures/velocities are very similar to what Quickload predicted for you.

You will learn to trust them too much, and that�s where you can get into trouble.

Loading Manuals are based on actual testing, and are written to err on the safe side, and that�s a better way to go even for the most learned handloaders, IMO.

I consider it irresponsible to recommend that someone use Only, Quickload for a loading guide. They do so at their own risk. �

If you knew and understood the criteria, facts, principles, and logic that support my conclusion, you'd agree with me.

BTW, I don't remember recommending that anyone use only QuickLOAD as a loading guide, and I definitely remember saying that any trial load has to be tested in a specific rifle. Please don't attribute to me anything that I haven't said, especially when you want to discredit it.

Limited experience with QL, like limited experience with handloading, is a damn poor basis for offering useful advice to others, anyway.

Ken Howell:
I�m sure YOU, know a LOT, with the possible exception of what you DID say, so let me refresh you memory.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�I consider QuickLOAD a vastly superior substitute for a collection of handloading manuals.

Each manual reports results from one gun for each cartridge � a poor basis for assuming that the listed loads will produce similar results in your one other gun.

QuickLOAD, on the other hand, uses equations that ballisticians have laboriously derived, over many years, from the results from millions of loads in thousands of guns and cartridges. So it has a definite edge over a report of the results from a very limited number of loads from only one gun and one cartridge.

As a predicting device, QuickLOAD is vastly superior to manuals, IMHO. It's as useful for factory cartridges as it is for wildcats.�

-----------------------------------------------------------------
CLEARLY, you were advocating the use of QL, OVER the use of Loading Manuals.

Please read YOUR posts again, and all of MINE again.

I have used QL, enough to assure you, that you can encounter pressure signs with a load that QL says is perfectly safe. QL will not always accurately predict pressure, no matter how much experience you have. My �advice� was to caution people about that possibility.

Smitty of the North


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Casual, shallow, superficial use of QuickLOAD can be dangerous. Casual, shallow, superficial use of a manual is equally certain to be dangerous. QL offers much, much more than all the manuals put together. Getting full benefit from it requires long, careful, studious use. It is illogical to compare studious use of a manual to superficial use of QuickLOAD.

QL abounds with caveats and cautions. I doubt that its critics have delved deep enough into QL to have read, for example, "These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window"
or
"C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations. USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON!"
or
"This program assumes use of the mildest primer that will do the job in the specified load. Primer substitutions can raise chamber pressures to unsafe levels [�] equally, bullet substitutions often result in significant chamber pressure differences."

No one can fairly, justly, or intelligently judge QuickLOAD � or compare its use to the use of a manual � without learning and considering what it is and what it offers.

Finally, with either QL or a manual, "the proof is in the pudding" � only careful field tests in an actual firearm can really tell you whether you have a good, safe load. I've repeatedly said this, and QL freely and frequently admits its limitations. QL is far superior to the manuals in its ability to predict probable results.


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