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I'm inquisitive as to the load that included the 600 gr bullet. I load mine with 71.5gr H4895 and a 450 gr BTSX the bullet it is a compressed load though not too much. I'd think a 600gr round nosed bullet moving at 2000fps would really be compressed, but possible.

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Originally Posted by medicman
what function problems with the CZ I was thinking seriously about it


Medicman - When I first got my CZ 550 459 Lott, the action was VERY stiff. I put JB Bore Paste on all the bearing surfaces and ran the action about 200 times (followed with a thorough cleaning). I have about 200 rounds through mine without the following problem; several friends who have the CZ Lott's have had their stocks crack and split around the tang area.

I would not hesitate to buy another one. I shoot over the iron sights and I can get about 1 to 1.5 inches standing, off-hand at 50 yards. Plus it is just a bucket of fun to shoot the big boy. 10 rounds and you feel like you got something worthwhile done that day.

I am considering getting one in .505 Gibbs. Does anyone have any CZ experience with that caliber?


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I'm not a .458 fan, never will be, as I believe it simply lacks enough powder capacity and thus its design was wrong from the get go, else it wouldn't be such a cussed and discused round that creates such long tedious arguements between the masses...

However, I submit that properly handloaded its a perfectly good caliber, kills well and not worth getting into an arguement over. if i had one that I liked I would simply have someone lengthed the chamber and the magazine box a tad and call it my .458 Lott..I would load it to 2200 FPS, get less pressure by a lot (pun) and be happy as a church mouse..Its a terribly simple solution..

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OR,

I like the CZ set triggers, but the rest would make one a heck of a nice rifle. My first one in 416 Rigby cracked the stock on the third shot, sent it back to Kansas for a new one...GLASSED! It was an excellent gun for the money and functioned perfectly. My second one had double crossbolts and was glassed when I got it. It was OK in all respects. I was sorry to have to sell them to pay med bills. I would get another, if I needed one.


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medicman and MoccasinJoe,
Since I am the partner MoccasinJoe is discussing,and since we don't quite remember this the same way,I'll put my two cents in here.
1) my notes show I put 238 rounds through that rifle before leaving for Africa,plus another 3 to sight in at camp.
2) first shot at buff at right around 100 yds,2nd at 20-25 yds.,so 243 rounds before the malfuntion.
3)I remember the loaded round (Barnes 450 triple x)going catywampus and jamming, the tip angled left as the problem,not a failure to eject.
4)My cousin and I put another 70 rounds through that rifle after I got back home with no problems ,plus the PH fired three in the air to move some lions out of our way to the airstrip to come home.So counting my last two to finish the buff,that's 75 after the jam with no problems.
Granted,the jam came at a most innoportune time,but it was the only one I experienced.
That action and the magazine are long enough to feed .458 Lott.The fact that the round was jammed diagonally,case head right rear,bullet point left front,would indicate that the case head was not picked up solidly under the extractor.I hate to admit it,but the likelihood is that I may have short stroked it just a hair.Joe was johnny on the spot with the leatherman,and did help me clear the action quickly,but I remember the problem as having been the loaded round,not the previous fired case.
Besides all the rounds that I actually fired,every one,plus the sixty some odd rounds I still have was function tested through that action.By my count that's about 700 loaded .458 Winchester rounds that functioned through that rifle with the one failure to feed.Counting the feeding but not firing.close to 570 rounds through the action before the failure.
Before I ever attempt to use it on dangerous game again,I will have a good gunsmith slick it up for function.
Hope that gives everyone a clearer picture.

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I thank you for the further info. Some suggestions regarding cross bolts and glass bedding were already planned no matter what rifle selected. Your experience falls into line with my friends two rifles that I have used. I, like you, function test all reloads or factory before ever the field is experienced. With dangerous game this step is necessary. Prove the weapon, prove the man, then go hunt.

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Not to belabor the point,but the .458 Winchester and the .458 Lott in the CZ 550 seem to be built on the same action and the same magazine.I loaded several rounds with the TSX way out,to duplicate the length OAL of the Lott,based on info two other campfire members with the same rifle had forwarded to me.
The rounds worked through the mag and chambered slick as you please.
With a long bullet like that,seated out,it should be theoretically possible to get enough powder under it to pretty much duplicate Lott loads,and still be able to have enough bullet in the case to hold it securely and crimp it thoroughly as well.I cycled and fired those rounds without a problem.They were loaded slightly hotter than the 71.5 of H4895 that MoccasinJoe and I had standardized on,73.5 grains I believe,but they were still in the upper range for the winchester as opposed to true Lott loadings.
I haven't been able to get my hands on any Lott brass,so I don't know if that would chamber,but the leade is definately long enough for that OAL.I suspect that extra overall length,just before the projectile actually enters the chamber might have been part of the problem.
At any rate,I haven't been able to get that jam to repeat,even with a couple hundred rounds loaded with Remington .458 RNSPs loaded for practice,which is even shorter than the TSX loaded for standard .458 OAL.If I were to contemplate DG hunting again,I'd be sure to have the inside surfaces of the rails slicked up,as that's where the nose of the bullet hung up,and remember to operate the bolt smartly,which admittedly I don't think I have always done in practice,though at the time,I thought I had done in that situation.

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If I remember correctly back in the late 1980S,the then new .416 Remington Magnum trumped the .458 Winchester Magnum,and sent it off to the side of the Magnum road,then the gun writers buried the .458 Winchester by trashing it with negative press.

I load my Model 70 down to Marlin 45-70 Max loads for Deer&Bear, I never had one get up or run.

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Originally Posted by HankStone
If I remember correctly back in the late 1980S,the then new .416 Remington Magnum trumped the .458 Winchester Magnum,and sent it off to the side of the Magnum road,then the gun writers buried the .458 Winchester by trashing it with negative press.


Very...interesting...

It so happens that if a .458 Winchester is loaded with 400 grain bullets, like a .416 Remington, and if both are sighted in at 150 yards, the .458 will stay within 3" of the .416 trajectory out to 300 yards.

It also so happens that the .458 can be loaded with 500 grain bullets for the big stuff and the .416 can't!

So who trumps whom?

The firearme companies should have invented the .416 first. That way the .458 could have been their "improvement."



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I just got one of those monthly e-mail updates from Barnes Bullets. They are announcing a new 350 grain .458 caliber bullet that should give the .458 Win Mag some additional velocity with a toughly constructed bullet. Odessa

"This is a 10-shot target featuring one of our new bullet introductions for 2008. Would you believe it�s our .458 caliber 350-grain TSX? This is a 1/2″ group! We frequently see extraordinary accuracy with our big caliber bullets."

"This is an interesting story. When Fred Barnes was mentoring my father in the early years, one day he noticed a target hanging on Fred�s wall with five .458 caliber 500-grain Barnes FMJ�s strung through a wire hanger in a crude sort of necklace fashion. The target had a 100 yard 5-shot group that measured 1 1/4″. Randy remarked �What�s the big deal? This isn�t a great group.� Fred explained he shot this target with the original .458 Winchester Magnum proto-type rifle he had sent to Winchester. According to Fred, Winchester sent the rifle back, and introduced the cartridge a few years later with some slight variations. Anyway, he pulled the rifle out of the corner one day and fired a bullet at a clean target. Then each year for the next four consecutive years he fired one 500-grain Barnes FMJ at this target, from this rifle, on the anniversary date of the first firing and recovered the bullets. Incidentally, Fred built this rifle on a Mauser 98 action and we have it here at the factory today. I crack a smile every time I see it and think about the history behind that old gun.

My dad was re-telling this story to me not that long ago and chuckled �Fred was always doing off-the-wall things like that or coming up with a new something or other he wanted to test.� Well dad, I guess that�s what STILL makes our company great, isn�t it! You always say �Ten ideas in the hopper�� And Barnes is STILL the innovator.

-Jessica Brooks"



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I've used the 458 Win. Mag. before in Tanzania on buffalo, hippo, and zebra with 500 gr. Trophy Bonded solids @ 2100 fps. MV, and I've also used the 416 Rem. Mag. with 400 gr. Swift A-Frames @ 2400 fps. MV as well as 370 gr. North Fork solids & softs @ 2470 fps. MV. Both cartridges and all of these loads have been absolutely devastating, and to say that one worked well while the others didn't would be rather ridiculous.

Even so, no matter how much us 416 fans love our rifles, a properly-loaded 458 Win. Mag. is still more rifle, and those big 500 gr. bullets clobber the biggest stuff harder and have the weight (and thus, momentum) to penetrate deeper, on average.

I still think that good 500 gr. bullets loaded to 2100 fps. or better get the most performance that the 458 Win. Mag. has to offer, and with today's powders, that's not all that tough to achieve. In many ways, the 458 Win. Mag. is today a better cartridge than it's ever been before, especially with much more suitable, modern powders and contemporary bullets, and especially with modern, high-performance factory loads (like Winchester's new 500 gr. Nosler Part. & solid ammo promises to be), the 458 Win. Mag. ain't no slouch, and many of the old objections to it are somewhat obsolete.

Do I think that the bigger 458s like the Lott, Dakota, and Weatherby are still fundamentally better?

Yes I do, but all of them still burn more powder and kick harder than the 458 Winchester does, plus the man who can find a good buy on an older, high-quality factory 458 Win. like a Browning Safari or Model 70 can certainly tune-up, adjust, load for, and make hum to the point of having a totally sufficient dangerous game rifle that'll get any job done, from hunting lions to elephants.

A few years ago, I sold my old Model 70 Classic 458 Win. Mag. to a good friend and hunting partner, and a short time later one of our mutual friends bought a Ruger Magnum 458 Lott. It terms of handiness, balance, and light carrying weight, that old Model 70 with its 22" bbl. is a far more user-friendly and practical rifle to carry than that Ruger Lott is, and if I had the choice of either one of them to select for an elephant hunt (long hikes day-in and day-out), I'd grab that Model 70 in a heartbeat.

Another good reason to go with the 458 Win. Mag........

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I have to agree with Allen, his analysis covers it all.

But I'll mention that getting 500gr bullets to 2150fps and beyond, while staying within book loads, is no trouble with a couple of today's powders, especially AA2230.

I'll also add that flat nose monometal solids like the North Fork or the GS Custom in 450grs outperform the 500gr solids, with far greater penetration and no loss in apparent impact effect. The 450's can run a good bit faster. I run the 500's at 2145fps muzzle velocity using AA2230 and the 450's at 2200fps using H4895. Neither load is anywhere near max and neither has proven temp sensative. Both loads are completely adequate and more for buff or eles, the 450's get the nod for eles because of the greater penetration. I've knocked down or down and out several eles with less than perfect brain shots with both loads, stopped a charge with the 450, and that shot wasn't perfect either.

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Indy,
that only says part of the story, it sounds good but its not a fact by any means...Sectional density, is a very important part of any DG round and a short stubbey 458 will not penetrate well enough for buffalo and elephant..The only way a .458 qualifies IMO for a DG round is with a good handload and a 500 gr. bullet that is long enough to have sufficient penetration. The monolithics can change this according to some, but then they can do the same for a .416 so the equasion never changes...By the same token I won't shoot 300 gr. bullets in my .416 even though they have the same velocity as a 300 win or something on that order.

A 350 or 400 gr. .458 is more of a ball than a bullet IMO...however I speak for myself and have no quarrel with those that choose to do otherwise.

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atkinson,

I know about sectional density but what about JPK's contention that the flat point shape of 450 grain North Forks creates an effect that lets them penetrate deeper than Kynoch-shaped 500 grain round noses which have better sectional density? In other posts, JPK has actually shot animals with North Forks to prove this, IIRC. Also, there have been some theoretical studies about this posted on various boards, though personally I trust the people who have used them better than the theoretical studies.

Irrespective of shape, the sectional density of the 450 is over 300 and I can get 2250 fps with no pressure problems. From what I have read, that should put my .458 easily into the DG range.

The 450 grain .458 bullet has slightly better sectional density than does the 300 grain .375, slightly lower velocity, and 50% more weight; also slightly less sectional density than the 400 grain .416. What's wrong with that?

The only problem is that North Fork went out of business. I only have 44 of these solids left. Fortunately, I have the load worked up and I keep very thorough notes. The North Forks shoot 1.0" lower than 450 grain TSXs in my rifle at 100 yards, so I don't even have to waste any confirming my zero. 44 might last many years.


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Originally Posted by IndyCA35
atkinson,

I know about sectional density but what about JPK's contention that the flat point shape of 450 grain North Forks creates an effect that lets them penetrate deeper than Kynoch-shaped 500 grain round noses which have better sectional density? In other posts, JPK has actually shot animals with North Forks to prove this, IIRC. Also, there have been some theoretical studies about this posted on various boards, though personally I trust the people who have used them better than the theoretical studies.

Irrespective of shape, the sectional density of the 450 is over 300 and I can get 2250 fps with no pressure problems. From what I have read, that should put my .458 easily into the DG range.

The 450 grain .458 bullet has slightly better sectional density than does the 300 grain .375, slightly lower velocity, and 50% more weight; also slightly less sectional density than the 400 grain .416. What's wrong with that?

The only problem is that North Fork went out of business. I only have 44 of these solids left. Fortunately, I have the load worked up and I keep very thorough notes. The North Forks shoot 1.0" lower than 450 grain TSXs in my rifle at 100 yards, so I don't even have to waste any confirming my zero. 44 might last many years.


It ain't a theory! 450gr North Frok flat nose solids at 2200fps far outpenetrate 500gr Woodleighs at 2145fps. This has been the case with every 450 shot vs every 500 shot. The issue of greater penetration is resolved, at least for me, but how much greater pentration? My measurements and experiments in elephants leads me to lean toward believing that its in the neighborhood of 40%. But so many North Forks exited that I don't have enough of a sample to be really comfortable with that assesment.

500grs, who post here and elsewhere has also done extensive test, more extensive than mine. He finds a lesser advantage, in the areas of 15% IIRC. But many of the test he tried were equal weight flat noses vs equal weight round noses at the same velocity. So it seems that the flat noses gain advantage through speed rather than mass. But I am unaware of any tests in real game or ballistic gell designed to smoke this out.

Does indicate why moving to 450gr solids in the 458wm results in such a phenominal increase in performance though. The fellow who turned me onto the 450 North Forks finds the same remarkable increase in performance in his 450NE No2, a rifle not limited by its cartridge case capacity - the 450NE No2 has an enourmous case thal ALWAYS requires a filler - but rather a rifle whose velocity is limited by the pressure it can withstand and also by how the two barrels were regulated (same issue regarding regulation for my 458wm DR too, which is why my 500's are limted to 2145fps and the 450's limited to 2200fps.))

From 500 Grains tests, I would be very confident shooting GS Custom flat nose mono bullets, btw.

On lighter weight non DG bullets, used for trajectory improvement. I am a fan of keep it simple stupid. One weight bullet for each rifle on safari. Then your selection is limited to soft or solid. Better a more arched trajectory than the wrong weight bullet up the spout or in the magazine. But I suppose you could keep the light weights "locked up" until all the DG for the trip is shot and then retire the heavies. Still I'd keep it simple.

And Indy, don't let Ray Atkinson fool you, he has been touting the 450gr North Fork cup points - not flat nose solids - for buff for years, so his line about 500's only is just argumentative bull.

JPK

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No, but a lot more than that.

The last Safari with knockout wood that went thru my hands was sold for 1300 USD...and they made a lot of 270s.

With a special order like yours and its condition, I imagine it has significantly more value to the right collector, than to a hunter.

In my experience, Browning collectors tend to be shy on full disclosure.:)



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North Fork 370 gr. .416 bullets penetrate and perform superbly, and I can't see that the North Fork .458s wouldn't work at least as effectively.

I surely do hope that someone starts producing North Fork bullets again, and that they are of the same quality as turned out by Mike Brady.

I'm hunting with North Forks again this season with my 416 rem. Mag., but unless these bullets come available once again, I'll be looking to work with something else after I'm back from this year's hunting........

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Originally Posted by allenday


I surely do hope that someone starts producing North Fork bullets again, and that they are of the same quality as turned out by Mike Brady.

AD


Add me here! They were about as good as anyone could make. cool


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Taking over North Fork bullets would be a good second career for someone who is retired. I sense you would have to have a little more penchant for marketing than Mr. Brady had. Also, I suspect the business may have gotten away from him a little. Someone else could either raise prices or hire more help or both. Depending on how much machinery and facilities are involved, one could either move to Wyoming (hunting is good) or move the business elsewhere. You could probably get a small business loan from the govt.

End of advertisement. I hope somebody does that.


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I love it when I get misquoted..I tested the Northforks before anyone ever used them and the 450 flat nose solids or cup points are fantastic bullets..

What I said was the 300, 350 and even the 400 gr. bullets are not long enough IMO and bullets without SD, tend to slow down quicker, penetrate less as they do not have the mass to push them IMO...especially in conventional bullets, but also in monolithics..reread my posts.

In monolithics I agree that is a good practice to go from the heavy bullet to the next bullet down such as from 500 gr. conventional to 450 gr. monolithics..but that is where you stop for dangerous game in a 458 cal...In a .416 you can drop to 350 gr. Monolithics but not to 300 gr. IMO...

So if you going to call BS then do the curtesy of reading the posts in full...

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