I like Partitions, Hotcors and Innerloks. I want controlled expansion, 50% or better weight retention, 2x expansion and at least 2 feet of penetration. I notice a lot of people championing soft Match style hunting bullets and tipped match bullets that open quickly. Seems to me they could be a bit overly destructive.
I have had great luck with all of those. Find myself moving more and more towards the all copper bullets. The last few years my Doe popper has been Barnes 50gr 22-250. Great results and minimal meat loss.
I want Barnes performance. Always open to some extent. Check. Almost always an exit wound. Check. Rarely every an exit larger than double the bullet diameter. Check. Low meat damage/loss. Check. hopefully 100% weight retention. Check dang near every bullet we have ever caught from a barnes round.
Animals don't go very far. Sometimes the blood trail isn't great but great blood trails tend to require huge exit holes and I despise those.
As to match bullets, we have shot quite a bit of game with them and I've never lost game. Sometimes the exit is big. Sometimes its normal. In a pinch, IE its what I have in the mag, I've never hesitated with a match bullet of decent weight.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Whatever expanding bullet ends with a dead animal and shoots well enough out of my rifle. I've got a variety left over from the Sniffles of 2020 I need to load up.
"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power." - Theodore Roosevelt
I like Partitions, Hotcors and Innerloks. I want controlled expansion, 50% or better weight retention, 2x expansion and at least 2 feet of penetration. I notice a lot of people championing soft Match style hunting bullets and tipped match bullets that open quickly. Seems to me they could be a bit overly destructive.
I want a bullet that will break at least one moose shoulder and still end up under the off side hide. At the same time I also want it to put deer down fairly quickly at reasonable ranges. So finding a bullet involves trying to ballance these two goals, and oddly enough it seems to be easyer to do with some cartridges than it is with others.
I've mostly settled on heavy for caliber Corelokt, Interlock, and Fusion bullets. Occasionally I've used Accubonds or Partitions, but generally I've felt the extra expendature was not needed.
Last edited by Exophysical; 01/18/25.
"We're so desperate that its dangerous, we basically have lost our heads, responsible for nothing but taking credit wherever we can." - Tony Sly.
NOSLER PARTITION, is number one in my book, I have killed more Deer and Elk with that bullet than any other. I also favor the Accubond, its a little more accurate than the Partition and floats out there a little flatter. I use the 180 partitions in my 300 WM and the 160AB's in my 280 Ackley improved
I like fairly light construction, though not explosive expansion, if that makes sense. Am not a fan of TSXs and the like for the most part, on the animals and rounds that I am experienced with anyhow. I am trying to warm up to the .375” TSX for an upcoming buffalo hunt, based of the PH’s recommendation.
For deer, elk, bears, etc. I don’t require nor really even want an exit, for a variety of reasons though I don’t mind one. As long as it makes it to the far side—-through bone or not—-and has good expansion, I am generally good with it.
I want accuracy, good expansion within it’s velocity design parameters (I’ll not take shots beyond that range) near 100% weight retention, and the ability to full - length, elk sized game end to end.
I found that bullet quite a few years ago! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
I like enough accuracy to instill confidence and enough robustness to penetrate where needed while opening up a nice wound channel. I’ve had great performance out of Accubond bullets and have yet to catch one. Barnes TSX/TTSX have impressed in light for calibers driven fast.
Barnes ttsx has killed many elk for me. All pass through from 25-400 yards. Only draw back of monos is extreme long range vs cup and core. I think federal terminal ascent is the about as good as it gets if I were to start over. But at this time I’m already Too invested into Ttsx and SGK/TGK
All of them do something better than the 30-06, but none of them do everything as well.
I want as much of the inside of the animal damaged as possible. I honestly don't care about how a bullet looks after it hits an animal or how much weight it retains. I want that animal on the ground ASAP. For that, multiple wound channels are required, so a bullet that comes apart is best.
ELDM, ELDX, Scenar, NBTs, and TMKs are pretty much all I shoot these days. I still have some bullets from back when I wanted a nice mushroom and more penetration than was necessary, so a couple of my rifles use those, but only until they are gone and I work up new loads.
. Am not a fan of TSXs and the like for the most part, on the animals and rounds that I am experienced with anyhow. I am trying to warm up to the .375” TSX for an upcoming buffalo hunt, based of the PH’s recommendation.
it.
T_Iman: in my limited experience (4) with Cape Buffalo I would heartily recommend the 270grain LRX (Could not get the 270 TTSX in the great white north at the time)
I tend to shoot all my game with one of the following;’Balistic tip, Accubond, TTSX, LRX, or partition
I have used 150 grain TSX bullets in my .303 Brit from 12 yards to over 350 yards.One shot kills for all but one.. Over 30 animals from moose to coyotes Only one bullet recovery at just under 200 yards, shot was in the back of the neck of a rutted up rutted buck. Broke the vertebrae and indeed up almost through the offside. Works for me. Also have shot tons of critters with Game Kings, Hot Cores and Interlocks. Only shot two deer with SST's ( last fall with a 280) Didn't see any more meat damage than any over bullet, one ay 83 yards the other a 136 IIRC. I want a bullet that is accurate and kills well, period. I have seen two kills with Bergers and both were impressive, one at 410 yards the other an 230+. Big exits and lung shots from a 7 mag Cat
100% penetration with exits combined with good diameter wound channel. There are several ways to get this result. The goal is the same, but the tool can vary. Examples of bullets and cartridges that give me this result can be some of the following;
62 caliber round ball, cast of Wheel Weight metal and shot with 140 grains of 3F black powder. 320 grain 44 caliber LBT WFN-GC bullet from 44 magnum revolvers powered by 20.0 to 22.0 grains of WW296 (4" to 8-3/8" barrels) 370 Grain LBT-WFN-GC from 454 Casull powered by 25 gr of WW296. (6 inch barrel) 187 grain LBT WFN GC from 357 Mag powered by 17 grains of WW296. (6" barrels) 270 Winchester with 150 and 160 grain Nosler Partitions. 308 Winchester firing 180 grain Remington Core-Lokts 30-06 firing 165 grain Barnes TSX or 180 grain Nosler partitions. 300 Magnums firing 200 grain Nosler Partitions. 8X57 firing 200 Grain Nosler Partitions 338-06 firing 225 Grain Nosler Partitions 9.3X57 firing PPU cup and core 285 grain round nose bullets 45-70 firing 450 grain LBT Gas Checked flat nose 458 Win Mag firing nearly any bullet of 350 grains or more.
As you can see, all the above (and many others) give me good straight line penetrations with good diameter wound channels, but many are vastly different one for another.
I like a bullet that sheds some weight to augment damage but maintains a nice mushroom / base for continued penetration and damage. Partition, Accubond, scirocco probably my favorites for higher velocity impacts but even cup and core bullets like core lokt, interlock, heavy btips and tipped game kings do same if impact velocity is not extreme or not pushing some envelope on game/cartridge size. For pure open country hunting I don’t mind a Berger or other more fragile design where can watch the game run after hit and can often wait for broadside shot plus have the higher BC.
I like fairly light construction, though not explosive expansion, if that makes sense. Am not a fan of TSXs and the like for the most part, on the animals and rounds that I am experienced with anyhow. I am trying to warm up to the .375” TSX for an upcoming buffalo hunt, based of the PH’s recommendation.
For deer, elk, bears, etc. I don’t require nor really even want an exit, for a variety of reasons though I don’t mind one. As long as it makes it to the far side—-through bone or not—-and has good expansion, I am generally good with it.
How’d the Scenar work this fall on the bull? Thinking I need to try em.
I like fairly light construction, though not explosive expansion, if that makes sense. Am not a fan of TSXs and the like for the most part, on the animals and rounds that I am experienced with anyhow. I am trying to warm up to the .375” TSX for an upcoming buffalo hunt, based of the PH’s recommendation.
For deer, elk, bears, etc. I don’t require nor really even want an exit, for a variety of reasons though I don’t mind one. As long as it makes it to the far side—-through bone or not—-and has good expansion, I am generally good with it.
How’d the Scenar work this fall on the bull? Thinking I need to try em.
I like fairly light construction, though not explosive expansion, if that makes sense. Am not a fan of TSXs and the like for the most part, on the animals and rounds that I am experienced with anyhow. I am trying to warm up to the .375” TSX for an upcoming buffalo hunt, based of the PH’s recommendation.
For deer, elk, bears, etc. I don’t require nor really even want an exit, for a variety of reasons though I don’t mind one. As long as it makes it to the far side—-through bone or not—-and has good expansion, I am generally good with it.
How’d the Scenar work this fall on the bull? Thinking I need to try em.
The bull ptarmigan?
Just the 150 Scenar…bull ptarmigan sounds like [bleep] eating
I'm fine with a lot of things in between a V-Max and a solid, so long as I know what I'm working with so I can apply it correctly.
When things are "important" like during the whitetail rut, I do generally reach for things that will exit most times. This might be a good cup/core in a bigger chambering or a controlled expansion bullet in a smaller chambering. If I'm shooting hogs or varmints, I try all kinds of stuff so I can get some field data.
I'm fine with a lot of things in between a V-Max and a solid, so long as I know what I'm working with so I can apply it correctly.
When things are "important" like during the whitetail rut, I do generally reach for things that will exit most times. This might be a good cup/core in a bigger chambering or a controlled expansion bullet in a smaller chambering. If I'm shooting hogs or varmints, I try all kinds of stuff so I can get some field data.
This ^^^
Probably the most well thought out and articulated response here.
I want disruptive, devastating trauma. I do not even think about meat damage. I want it dead right now.
Berger vld, eldm, x, and interlock.
This for everything using 6.5 caliber stuff at muzzle velocity ranging from 2600 to 2950 fps. Typically with the 140 vld I also have very little meat damage.
Deer die easily with chest shots. Just about any soft point will work fine. Bigger game might require more penetration.
I like Partitions and Trophy Bonded Bullets, but today’s bullet roster is an embarrassment of riches. Any day now, I expect one will emerge that dresses the game and packs it out!
I want disruptive, devastating trauma. I do not even think about meat damage. I want it dead right now.
Berger vld, eldm, x, and interlock.
This for everything using 6.5 caliber stuff at muzzle velocity ranging from 2600 to 2950 fps. Typically with the 140 vld I also have very little meat damage.
Yep!
A lot of hunters believe that because Berger VLDs "come apart" they don't penetrate enough--and damage too much meat. But they penetrate 2-3 inches before starting to expand, and "harder" bullets (including monolithics) start to expand when they hit skin--with with a shoulder shot, or anywhere near the shoulder, will damage some meat.
A good example of how Bergers work (and specifically a 140 VLD, started at around 2950 from a 6.5-06) was a Wyoming pronghorn buck I killed maybe a decade ago. The range was about 150-175 yards, and I put the bullet 3" behind the shoulder. The buck fell dead before I could open the bolt, and the ONLY meat "damage" was the 1" exit hole through the ribs on the far side. The entrance hole was right around 6.5mm in diameter...but between the entrance and exit was "lung soup."
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I have shot game with Nosler Accubonds in 6.5 mm - .375".
IIRC I have only recovered one bullet. I shot a decent axis stag straight on with a 325 WSM loaded with 200 gr. Accubond. The bullet was lodged under the skin on the hind.
I like two leaky holes in case I have to track.
Full Disclosure. The occasion of this vid. was a shoot, not a hunt, other than the fact that deer on this ranch are not taken if they are under 7.5 years old. Took a good bit of scouting over an afternoon and morning to find one that qualified for the pittance I paid.
“Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.” ISAIAH 41:10
I don’t agonize too much about bullet performance. About all I hunt is deer. They’re easy to kill. If the bullet is accurate I can put it where it needs to go. I don’t take risky shots, I’ve killed a lot of deer and don’t get all worked up over it. I don’t worry about meat damage. Good hits don’t ruin much meat anyway.
I like fairly light construction, though not explosive expansion, if that makes sense. Am not a fan of TSXs and the like for the most part, on the animals and rounds that I am experienced with anyhow. I am trying to warm up to the .375” TSX for an upcoming buffalo hunt, based of the PH’s recommendation.
For deer, elk, bears, etc. I don’t require nor really even want an exit, for a variety of reasons though I don’t mind one. As long as it makes it to the far side—-through bone or not—-and has good expansion, I am generally good with it.
How’d the Scenar work this fall on the bull? Thinking I need to try em.
Really, really good. 175-200 yards, took a heck of a chip out of the onside humerus, trashed the lungs, went through the offside scapula and exited. Have no clue if it fragmented or not, but never found any copper or lead bits like I often did with bergers. He still ran 50 yards, but that was no big deal.
The ptarmigan however, charged. I peed myself. Got 8 more today, but shotgunned them as they ascended upon me. It was close, but I survived.
I like Partitions, Hotcors and Innerloks. I want controlled expansion, 50% or better weight retention, 2x expansion and at least 2 feet of penetration. I notice a lot of people championing soft Match style hunting bullets and tipped match bullets that open quickly. Seems to me they could be a bit overly destructive.
I don’t know anything about using match style bullets on game animals.
I like the bullets that you like. I’d also like an exit hole. I’d guess that the early Core Lokts would also be on my favorites list. I tried mono bullets when they came out in my 270 and my son used the same load in his 270. I thought I’d never use a mono bullet again - they sucked. Years later I saw how good a job the TTSX bullets worked for a hunting partner. Now, I’ve had very good luck with TTSX bullets. I’ll be using TSX bullets on Cape since they are shorter than other mono’s and leave more room for powder.
I shot a running away large buck at maybe 30 yards with a 180 grain Interlock out of a 30-06 when I was decades younger. The bullet destroyed the left hip, traveled the length of the buck, I found the bullet just under the skin in the front shoulder. (The buck tumbled and was dead by the time I got to him, maybe an instant kill). I think that was good bullet performance.
I prefer classic. Semper Fi I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
The 62 gr GD dings tiny groups like a bolt gun outta my 14" 7tw 223 Rem SSK barrel in a TC Contender, haven't chronied it yet or killed anything but I'm guessing they'll be hell on blacktails & caribou out to 150 yards or so, maybe even brain a called in bull moose out to 50 , subject to field tests I suppose
"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants".
I used to be in the tougher is better camp. Loved and used Barnes X bullets extensively. I will on occasion still use monos in high velocity cartridges but seldom in “standard” cartridges.
After experimenting with “softer” designs over the past 5-7 years I have come to prefer them more often than not.
Overall I want predictability when a projectile lands first and foremost. I can adjust and adapt placement to suit different constructions if I can be confident in how that bullet will behave when it gets there.
After that I can make do with about anything but I prefer something that is going to upset and give me the grape jelly slurry when it gets in the chest. Exits don’t seem to be as important when there’s a 4” or larger diameter section of blended carnage from point of entry through where the lungs used to reside as they generally don’t move far enough to require a blood trail.
I also have come to the point in my hunting career where I don’t need to shoot an unwounded animal up the ass. Pigs and other varmints excepted of course. So I don’t give a ton of consideration to end to end penetration capabilities.
I hunt MI whitetails mostly. Range from 10 feet to 300 yards mostly with the space to double that but I don't.
I shoot a 7/08 - 162 Amax
They put the meat on the ground. I don't fret over exits, I don't pull my hair out over pretty pictures of expanded bullets. I shoot, collect my deer and go about my business.
I've never found a pretty expanded bullet with them or Core-Loks or Ballistic Tips in the past. I have found jackets or pieces of them with the Amax. Doesn't bother me because - as I said, to find them, they have to be dead and I've yet to have a whitetail move more than 10 feet after catching an Amax in the shoulder.
I used to be in the tougher is better camp. Loved and used Barnes X bullets extensively. I will on occasion still use monos in high velocity cartridges but seldom in “standard” cartridges.
After experimenting with “softer” designs over the past 5-7 years I have come to prefer them more often than not.
Overall I want predictability when a projectile lands first and foremost. I can adjust and adapt placement to suit different constructions if I can be confident in how that bullet will behave when it gets there.
After that I can make do with about anything but I prefer something that is going to upset and give me the grape jelly slurry when it gets in the chest. Exits don’t seem to be as important when there’s a 4” or larger diameter section of blended carnage from point of entry through where the lungs used to reside as they generally don’t move far enough to require a blood trail.
I also have come to the point in my hunting career where I don’t need to shoot an unwounded animal up the ass. Pigs and other varmints excepted of course. So I don’t give a ton of consideration to end to end penetration capabilities.
I'm here as well on all counts. Used LRAB this year. I have 147, 162, and 180 ELDMs teed up for load development this winter/spring in several guns. I have a moose hunt in Sept and likely be a 180 ELDM from a plain Jane 280 currently getting a fast twist barrel. I do like the LRAB perfromqnce......
I used to be in the tougher is better camp. Loved and used Barnes X bullets extensively. I will on occasion still use monos in high velocity cartridges but seldom in “standard” cartridges.
After experimenting with “softer” designs over the past 5-7 years I have come to prefer them more often than not.
Overall I want predictability when a projectile lands first and foremost. I can adjust and adapt placement to suit different constructions if I can be confident in how that bullet will behave when it gets there.
After that I can make do with about anything but I prefer something that is going to upset and give me the grape jelly slurry when it gets in the chest. Exits don’t seem to be as important when there’s a 4” or larger diameter section of blended carnage from point of entry through where the lungs used to reside as they generally don’t move far enough to require a blood trail.
I also have come to the point in my hunting career where I don’t need to shoot an unwounded animal up the ass. Pigs and other varmints excepted of course. So I don’t give a ton of consideration to end to end penetration capabilities.
I'm here as well on all counts. Used LRAB this year. I have 147, 162, and 180 ELDMs teed up for load development this winter/spring in several guns. I have a moose hunt in Sept and likely be a 180 ELDM from a plain Jane 280 currently getting a fast twist barrel. I do like the LRAB perfromqnce......
I like fairly light construction, though not explosive expansion, if that makes sense. Am not a fan of TSXs and the like for the most part, on the animals and rounds that I am experienced with anyhow. I am trying to warm up to the .375” TSX for an upcoming buffalo hunt, based of the PH’s recommendation.
For deer, elk, bears, etc. I don’t require nor really even want an exit, for a variety of reasons though I don’t mind one. As long as it makes it to the far side—-through bone or not—-and has good expansion, I am generally good with it.
How’d the Scenar work this fall on the bull? Thinking I need to try em.
Really, really good. 175-200 yards, took a heck of a chip out of the onside humerus, trashed the lungs, went through the offside scapula and exited. Have no clue if it fragmented or not, but never found any copper or lead bits like I often did with bergers. He still ran 50 yards, but that was no big deal.
The ptarmigan however, charged. I peed myself. Got 8 more today, but shotgunned them as they ascended upon me. It was close, but I survived.
Ideally, I'll never know about weight retention, want a bullet to enter any animal at any angle presented, penetrate enough to wreck the vitals then exit, this does not mean i don't use bullets with a good track record of weight retention, they go hand in hand.
I don't try to shoot animals from stem to stern and I am particular about waiting for a good shot presentation. About any heavy for caliber C&C bullet works for me. If a pure lead bullet from a muzzle loader will kill an elk handily, I don't need a magic bullet to do the job. I have killed few elk with 180gr, 30 cal Partitions, but that is because I bought them from SPS for $13 per box of 50 .They didn't kill any deader than any other bullet I have used.
Last edited by saddlesore; 01/20/25.
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
I used to be in the tougher is better camp. Loved and used Barnes X bullets extensively. I will on occasion still use monos in high velocity cartridges but seldom in “standard” cartridges.
After experimenting with “softer” designs over the past 5-7 years I have come to prefer them more often than not.
Overall I want predictability when a projectile lands first and foremost. I can adjust and adapt placement to suit different constructions if I can be confident in how that bullet will behave when it gets there.
After that I can make do with about anything but I prefer something that is going to upset and give me the grape jelly slurry when it gets in the chest. Exits don’t seem to be as important when there’s a 4” or larger diameter section of blended carnage from point of entry through where the lungs used to reside as they generally don’t move far enough to require a blood trail.
I also have come to the point in my hunting career where I don’t need to shoot an unwounded animal up the ass. Pigs and other varmints excepted of course. So I don’t give a ton of consideration to end to end penetration capabilities.
I agree with most of this. The argument of "preparing for the worst" with tough bullets makes some sense... unless "the worst" involves tracking a deer sized animal through dense bush, and over dead leaves for any distance.
I've watched rather a lot of animals die and one observation in particular stands out; if you hit a deer in the boiler room with a 180 grain .30 cal bullet that does not exit, you wont need to do much tracking. Not saying thats the only way to do things, but IMO it works as a good standard to start from.
Last edited by Exophysical; 01/20/25.
"We're so desperate that its dangerous, we basically have lost our heads, responsible for nothing but taking credit wherever we can." - Tony Sly.
I'm fine with a lot of things in between a V-Max and a solid, so long as I know what I'm working with so I can apply it correctly.
When things are "important" like during the whitetail rut, I do generally reach for things that will exit most times. This might be a good cup/core in a bigger chambering or a controlled expansion bullet in a smaller chambering. If I'm shooting hogs or varmints, I try all kinds of stuff so I can get some field data.
This ^^^
Probably the most well thought out and articulated response here.
Yes, i believe so. One needs to always put a little thought into it.
I am happy with the bang flops I get with Bergers and Hornady Interlocks. I never had issues with either. Nosler parttitions seem to work every time also..
Not one "You idiot, know nothing jackass" comment anywhere in this thread?! WTH is this place turning into........
Good discussion and points made.
My empirical evidence points me to a more frangible bullet. I've shot elk and deer with monos, both etips and TTSX, and I've been unimpressed with the internal damage. Many here swear by them and I don't doubt their experience. For me, I've seen more internal damage and shorter tracking jobs with a more frangible bullet. I'm also a big fan of the answer that arrived in 1948. My initial read on the LRAB is that it is a slightly more frangible, higher BC Partition. At least at the velocities I run them at in my 6.5. I have a fast twist 280 being put together and I have 162/180 ELDM and 168/175 LRAB set for testing. One of the 4 should shoot well. I'll prob also rebarrell my 84L 270 to a 7x57 seated to 3.3 COAL and set it up to shoot the lighter of 4 listed above.
I've also been scheming a bigger 6.5 of some flavor - 6.5 PRC, 6.5x284. In a 23" barrel, a bigger 6.5 doesn't seem like much gain over the 6.5 creed. I get an honest 2700 with the 150 LRAB in my 22" creed. It appears a bigger 6.5 may push 2900, but more like 2850 with the 23" barrel. You'd think that would make a big difference but it doesn't seem to gack that way out to 500 yards. Its a matter of a few less inches of drop and fractions of an inch in wind drift. And you get more recoil. Examples posted on various internet platforms seems to indicate frangible, high BC don't necessarily benefit from more velocity. This makes sense to me.
The biggest advantage i see with frangible, high BC bullets is a guy can shoot a smaller cartridge, yet have less drop and wind drift than "standard" bullets from bigger cartridges. As I grow older (61 now) I'm way more attracted to less recoil, and I shoot them better. What's not to like about that arrangement - less recoil, better shooting. It's prob been said before but it's the bullet not the headstamp that does the killing
Thinking about this a bit more, I’ve been solidly in the “2 holes” camp for most of my hunting career. I’m moving from this position based on what I’ve seen in recent years and recalling most of my years using cup/core bullets. For a lot of years my 2 primary rifles were a 280 Rem and 7mm Rem Mag. I shot everything with them. I loaded 160 Speer in the 7 RM and 140 Sierras in the 280. Deer hated both. A lot. Some of the most impressive DRT I’ve ever had were with the 7 RM and the 160 Speer. My favorite shot was quartering to or head on. Most dropped at the shot. And the bullets didn’t exit on most. Tracking was easy <G>
I then started using Partitions and had the same results, except got more exits. I thought Nirvana had arrived. Then I started hunting out west and generally shooting longer distances, mainly because it was fun, and educational. The name of the game back in those days was velocity – higher velocity = flatter trajectory. My magnum career was fully lit. At one time, I had a 7 RM, a 300 WM, a 338 WM, and a 375 H&H. I also started doing backcountry hunts and discovered lightweight rifles. It took a few years to realize that combination – magnums + light rifles – sucked. I’ve several ‘witness marks’ from that time period, most along my eyebrows.
After moving to Accubonds about 5-6-7 years ago, and more frangible bullets in the past 2 years, I’m way less concerned about exits. I still prefer exits but I no longer think it’s a requirement. This past year, I shot a big cow at 50-60 yards quartering to with the lowly 6.5/150 LRAB combo. No exit but a way better blood trail than I ever saw with monos. My buddy shot his cow with a 7 RM and 150 gr tipped Corelokt at ~ 40 yards quartering to. We tracked it 3 feet – straight down. It never regained its footing and flopped around for about 15 seconds. He did lose some shoulder meat but I was surprised at the performance at that distance with that combo. I’d use it again.
Which takes me back to my above post. A guy can use smaller cartridges with high BC frangible bullets and achieve the same thing we all tried to do 20-30 years ago. Of course, you still need to pick your shots and know how to shoot.
Not one "You idiot, know nothing jackass" comment anywhere in this thread?! WTH is this place turning into........
Good discussion and points made.
My empirical evidence points me to a more frangible bullet. I've shot elk and deer with monos, both etips and TTSX, and I've been unimpressed with the internal damage. Many here swear by them and I don't doubt their experience. For me, I've seen more internal damage and shorter tracking jobs with a more frangible bullet. I'm also a big fan of the answer that arrived in 1948. My initial read on the LRAB is that it is a slightly more frangible, higher BC Partition. At least at the velocities I run them at in my 6.5. I have a fast twist 280 being put together and I have 162/180 ELDM and 168/175 LRAB set for testing. One of the 4 should shoot well. I'll prob also rebarrell my 84L 270 to a 7x57 seated to 3.3 COAL and set it up to shoot the lighter of 4 listed above.
I've also been scheming a bigger 6.5 of some flavor - 6.5 PRC, 6.5x284. In a 23" barrel, a bigger 6.5 doesn't seem like much gain over the 6.5 creed. I get an honest 2700 with the 150 LRAB in my 22" creed. It appears a bigger 6.5 may push 2900, but more like 2850 with the 23" barrel. You'd think that would make a big difference but it doesn't seem to gack that way out to 500 yards. Its a matter of a few less inches of drop and fractions of an inch in wind drift. And you get more recoil. Examples posted on various internet platforms seems to indicate frangible, high BC don't necessarily benefit from more velocity. This makes sense to me.
The biggest advantage i see with frangible, high BC bullets is a guy can shoot a smaller cartridge, yet have less drop and wind drift than "standard" bullets from bigger cartridges. As I grow older (61 now) I'm way more attracted to less recoil, and I shoot them better. What's not to like about that arrangement - less recoil, better shooting. It's prob been said before but it's the bullet not the headstamp that does the killing
Lol, "Mr Brokedick" must be buisy.
"We're so desperate that its dangerous, we basically have lost our heads, responsible for nothing but taking credit wherever we can." - Tony Sly.
Thinking about this a bit more, I’ve been solidly in the “2 holes” camp for most of my hunting career. I’m moving from this position based on what I’ve seen in recent years and recalling most of my years using cup/core bullets. For a lot of years my 2 primary rifles were a 280 Rem and 7mm Rem Mag. I shot everything with them. I loaded 160 Speer in the 7 RM and 140 Sierras in the 280. Deer hated both. A lot. Some of the most impressive DRT I’ve ever had were with the 7 RM and the 160 Speer. My favorite shot was quartering to or head on. Most dropped at the shot. And the bullets didn’t exit on most. Tracking was easy <G>
I then started using Partitions and had the same results, except got more exits. I thought Nirvana had arrived. Then I started hunting out west and generally shooting longer distances, mainly because it was fun, and educational. The name of the game back in those days was velocity – higher velocity = flatter trajectory. My magnum career was fully lit. At one time, I had a 7 RM, a 300 WM, a 338 WM, and a 375 H&H. I also started doing backcountry hunts and discovered lightweight rifles. It took a few years to realize that combination – magnums + light rifles – sucked. I’ve several ‘witness marks’ from that time period, most along my eyebrows.
After moving to Accubonds about 5-6-7 years ago, and more frangible bullets in the past 2 years, I’m way less concerned about exits. I still prefer exits but I no longer think it’s a requirement. This past year, I shot a big cow at 50-60 yards quartering to with the lowly 6.5/150 LRAB combo. No exit but a way better blood trail than I ever saw with monos. My buddy shot his cow with a 7 RM and 150 gr tipped Corelokt at ~ 40 yards quartering to. We tracked it 3 feet – straight down. It never regained its footing and flopped around for about 15 seconds. He did lose some shoulder meat but I was surprised at the performance at that distance with that combo. I’d use it again.
Which takes me back to my above post. A guy can use smaller cartridges with high BC frangible bullets and achieve the same thing we all tried to do 20-30 years ago. Of course, you still need to pick your shots and know how to shoot.
Okay, that’s enough with the common sense and experience mixed it.
Not one "You idiot, know nothing jackass" comment anywhere in this thread?! WTH is this place turning into........
Good discussion and points made.
My empirical evidence points me to a more frangible bullet. I've shot elk and deer with monos, both etips and TTSX, and I've been unimpressed with the internal damage. Many here swear by them and I don't doubt their experience. For me, I've seen more internal damage and shorter tracking jobs with a more frangible bullet. I'm also a big fan of the answer that arrived in 1948. My initial read on the LRAB is that it is a slightly more frangible, higher BC Partition. At least at the velocities I run them at in my 6.5. I have a fast twist 280 being put together and I have 162/180 ELDM and 168/175 LRAB set for testing. One of the 4 should shoot well. I'll prob also rebarrell my 84L 270 to a 7x57 seated to 3.3 COAL and set it up to shoot the lighter of 4 listed above.
I've also been scheming a bigger 6.5 of some flavor - 6.5 PRC, 6.5x284. In a 23" barrel, a bigger 6.5 doesn't seem like much gain over the 6.5 creed. I get an honest 2700 with the 150 LRAB in my 22" creed. It appears a bigger 6.5 may push 2900, but more like 2850 with the 23" barrel. You'd think that would make a big difference but it doesn't seem to gack that way out to 500 yards. Its a matter of a few less inches of drop and fractions of an inch in wind drift. And you get more recoil. Examples posted on various internet platforms seems to indicate frangible, high BC don't necessarily benefit from more velocity. This makes sense to me.
The biggest advantage i see with frangible, high BC bullets is a guy can shoot a smaller cartridge, yet have less drop and wind drift than "standard" bullets from bigger cartridges. As I grow older (61 now) I'm way more attracted to less recoil, and I shoot them better. What's not to like about that arrangement - less recoil, better shooting. It's prob been said before but it's the bullet not the headstamp that does the killing
I've used MONOs almost exclusively since the Barnes TSX came out. Same for my brother and two kids whom I handload for. I have used X,XLC, TSX,TTSX,LRX,GMX,CX and Etip. After using them for years it's pretty apparent they do indeed dig very deep. It's also apparent that if you don't break major bone or hit the CNS they kill slower than a lead and copper bullet. Blood trails are often scant to non existent because the entrance and exits are so small. This is from 300 win mag, 300 wsm, 300 ultra, 270 win, 280 rem,6.5 creed, 7mm-08 and 25-06. I'm gradually transition back to the Nosler Partition, Speer Grand Slams, Nosler BT's and AB'S. Partitions are still the gold standard IMO.
I don't try to shoot animals from stem to stern and I am particular about waiting for a good shot presentation. About any heavy for caliber C&C bullet works for me. If a pure lead bullet from a muzzle loader will kill an elk handily, I don't need a magic bullet to do the job. I have killed few elk with 180gr, 30 cal Partitions, but that is because I bought them from SPS for $13 per box of 50 .They didn't kill any deader than any other bullet I have used.
I could see this if my name was Saddlesore Jr, and if I lived out West and had all season to hunt and wait for a perfect shot angle, but, traveling out West for an Elk hunt, and damn sure loading up and heading out for an African Safari, man I have to be prepared to reach vitals from any angle I'm lucky enough to get.
I'm in the moderate expansion and deep penetration camp. Penetration has never been an issue for me with deer but I don't care for soft bullets shot through the shoulders. I typically aim for the boiler room as they say as I don't like dealing with jellied up meat. I've used most of the popular bullets starting with Core Lokts and Silvertips in the early 80's to Game kings, Interlocks and Partitions. Out of those the Interlock and Partition are most favored. Then the tipped bullets came along and out of those I like the Accubond, Bondstrike and Trophy Bonded Tip. For some reason I haven't had much luck getting Barnes bullets to shoot well for me but the few times I've used them on game I liked the terminal performance. I recently bought some E-Tip ammo for my 280AI that shoots really well so I plan on giving that a try this year.
I could see this if my name was Saddlesore Jr, and if I lived out West and had all season to hunt and wait for a perfect shot angle, but, traveling out West for an Elk hunt, and damn sure loading up and heading out for an African Safari, man I have to be prepared to reach vitals from any angle I'm lucky enough to get.
I don't get any longer to hunt than nonresidents. Seasons are the same. I learned a long time ago it is where you hit them rather than with what. Taking marginal shots doesn't fascinate me.
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
It's become common knowledge that highly fragmenting bullets kill quicker than moderate, controlled expansion bullets when the animal is hit in the same place. Mule Deer has verified this, and I've verified it on scores of hog kills. I personally don't like killing and making hamburger at the same time, so I'll take the controlled expansion bullets performance that I've been getting for 40 years. Pick your poison.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
I could see this if my name was Saddlesore Jr, and if I lived out West and had all season to hunt and wait for a perfect shot angle, but, traveling out West for an Elk hunt, and damn sure loading up and heading out for an African Safari, man I have to be prepared to reach vitals from any angle I'm lucky enough to get.
I don't get any longer to hunt than nonresidents. Seasons are the same. I learned a long time ago it is where you hit them rather than with what. Taking marginal shots doesn't fascinate me.
Seasons are generally the same for both res and non-res, yes…and I know some states like CO and NM have 5 day or 7 day seasons in a lot of their units. That’s about how long most non-residents hunt, guided or not. Even the states with longer general seasons don’t always have their residents hunt the whole season. They may just take a week of vacation and not come back. I know plenty of folks who do so.
20 yard shot through both shields and stopped under the hide on the passenger side. 308 Win Norma 150 whitetail ammo
This stuff is accurate and makes two holes most of the time. We hardly ever use factory ammo but I like it. Took three shot to knock him off his feet. He was moving on…
I don't try to shoot animals from stem to stern and I am particular about waiting for a good shot presentation. About any heavy for caliber C&C bullet works for me. If a pure lead bullet from a muzzle loader will kill an elk handily, I don't need a magic bullet to do the job. I have killed few elk with 180gr, 30 cal Partitions, but that is because I bought them from SPS for $13 per box of 50 .They didn't kill any deader than any other bullet I have used.
I could see this if my name was Saddlesore Jr, and if I lived out West and had all season to hunt and wait for a perfect shot angle, but, traveling out West for an Elk hunt, and damn sure loading up and heading out for an African Safari, man I have to be prepared to reach vitals from any angle I'm lucky enough to get.
I live out West…..but feel the same as you! I want a bullet that will work every time from any angle!
I’ll “not” argue that a frangible bullet placed into the lungs/heart will kill a bit quicker …..but, I’ve yet to lose an animal that we (wife & I) have shot with a Barnes bullet.
Our most difficult recovery, was on an Antelope that my wife made a quick offhand shot on at a “whisper” over 200 yards, as it was walking out of sight behind a little ridge. We got there, but couldn’t find any evidence of a hit…..she thought that she may have missed. But, continued to search, going in the general direction that he was going. She found him, about 50 yards from where he was standing at the shot! She had hit very low on the chest, at the bottom of the little “naked” spot just behind the foreleg. A couple of inches lower would have been a miss. Didn’t really hit any vitals, and at that point of impact an Antelope might only be about 6” thick. Not a lot of resistance for a Barnes, and probably barely “clipped” vitals. Maybe a cup and core would have done much better…..maybe a Barnes with higher velocity than her 225 grain TTSX from her .338 WM would have done better! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
I prefer a reasonably priced bullet that tends to give exit wounds. I reload exclusively.
I generally start with Hornady Interlocks but getting out of that routine and going with Sierra TGKs for deer bullets. My .338Fed does not really have any offerings from those two companies so I have gone to Federal Fusions and am very happy.
When elk or anything bigger is the target, then Barnes TTSX is my preferred bullet. I can always find a load that is accurate. I cannot say the same about any Nosler or Speer offerings.
20 yard shot through both shields and stopped under the hide on the passenger side. 308 Win Norma 150 whitetail ammo
This stuff is accurate and makes two holes most of the time. We hardly ever use factory ammo but I like it. Took three shot to knock him off his feet. He was moving on…
That has been pretty good hog ammo for us also. I think I've stopped it in one quartering shot, but that's it.
I could see this if my name was Saddlesore Jr, and if I lived out West and had all season to hunt and wait for a perfect shot angle, but, traveling out West for an Elk hunt, and damn sure loading up and heading out for an African Safari, man I have to be prepared to reach vitals from any angle I'm lucky enough to get.
I don't get any longer to hunt than nonresidents. Seasons are the same. I learned a long time ago it is where you hit them rather than with what. Taking marginal shots doesn't fascinate me.
Where you hit them is pretty right but where you hit them with the bullet your using really matters! I like 75gr Hornady V-Max in my 243 but it's my varmint rifle. Shooting on a range developing loads in the 243, I used a 1" foam backer to hang the target's on. Penetrating the foam at 200yds tore the bullets apart as the ground behind the target was littered all over with jacket metal. But shoot a deer in the head and it's gonna die with that bullet. Different bullet's allow hitting different spots and making clean kills.
20 yard shot through both shields and stopped under the hide on the passenger side. 308 Win Norma 150 whitetail ammo
This stuff is accurate and makes two holes most of the time. We hardly ever use factory ammo but I like it. Took three shot to knock him off his feet. He was moving on…
A few days ago I watched a couple of elk die to the 140gr 6.5 CM version of that ammo. All exits and moderate wound channels, even though heavy bone was involved in one of them. The stuff shoots under MOA for 10+ shots, too, in the particular rifle in question. Impressive for cheap factory ammo.
20 yard shot through both shields and stopped under the hide on the passenger side. 308 Win Norma 150 whitetail ammo
This stuff is accurate and makes two holes most of the time. We hardly ever use factory ammo but I like it. Took three shot to knock him off his feet. He was moving on…
A few days ago I watched a couple of elk die to the 140gr 6.5 CM version of that ammo. All exits and moderate wound channels, even though heavy bone was involved in one of them. The stuff shoots under MOA for 10+ shots, too, in the particular rifle in question. Impressive for cheap factory ammo.
I got a few boxes of the 150 Norma ammo when I was between moves and had just picked up a 7-08 Montana. Stuff hovered around an inch for 5 and worked great on the few deer I took that fall. Shaped like a brick, but out to 300 it shot decent enough. Plus at the time it was around 20 bucks a box.
The 143gr Norma Bondstrike ammo shoots so good in my Sako 6.5 PRC I haven't even loaded anything for it yet. Bullet/kills remind me of the accubond and that's high praise.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
I could see this if my name was Saddlesore Jr, and if I lived out West and had all season to hunt and wait for a perfect shot angle, but, traveling out West for an Elk hunt, and damn sure loading up and heading out for an African Safari, man I have to be prepared to reach vitals from any angle I'm lucky enough to get.
I don't get any longer to hunt than nonresidents. Seasons are the same. I learned a long time ago it is where you hit them rather than with what. Taking marginal shots doesn't fascinate me.
Seasons are generally the same for both res and non-res, yes…and I know some states like CO and NM have 5 day or 7 day seasons in a lot of their units. That’s about how long most non-residents hunt, guided or not. Even the states with longer general seasons don’t always have their residents hunt the whole season. They may just take a week of vacation and not come back. I know plenty of folks who do so.
Yep. The vast majority of resident westerners in states with long seasons aren't hunting for six weeks at a time. Unless a person is retired or has their own place to hunt right out their back door, (the latter of which doesn't cover all that many hunters), then the committed sorts are hunting weekends and holidays, or taking a few days to a week off work. The not so serious types are hunting something like opening day and Thanksgiving. Some of that is due to life getting in the way of hunting, but other factors like distance to huntable ground is also a major factor. Kinda difficult for a guy from Alzada to travel back and forth to the Cabinets for a sheep hunt every weekend of the season. For those who might not be aware, that's something like a 700 mile drive without leaving the state of Montana.
I could see this if my name was Saddlesore Jr, and if I lived out West and had all season to hunt and wait for a perfect shot angle, but, traveling out West for an Elk hunt, and damn sure loading up and heading out for an African Safari, man I have to be prepared to reach vitals from any angle I'm lucky enough to get.
I don't get any longer to hunt than nonresidents. Seasons are the same. I learned a long time ago it is where you hit them rather than with what. Taking marginal shots doesn't fascinate me.
Seasons are generally the same for both res and non-res, yes…and I know some states like CO and NM have 5 day or 7 day seasons in a lot of their units. That’s about how long most non-residents hunt, guided or not. Even the states with longer general seasons don’t always have their residents hunt the whole season. They may just take a week of vacation and not come back. I know plenty of folks who do so.
Yep. The vast majority of resident westerners in states with long seasons aren't hunting for six weeks at a time. Unless a person is retired or has their own place to hunt right out their back door, (the latter of which doesn't cover all that many hunters), then the committed sorts are hunting weekends and holidays, or taking a few days to a week off work. The not so serious types are hunting something like opening day and Thanksgiving. Some of that is due to life getting in the way of hunting, but other factors like distance to huntable ground is also a major factor. Kinda difficult for a guy from Alzada to travel back and forth to the Cabinets for a sheep hunt every weekend of the season. For those who might not be aware, that's something like a 700 mile drive without leaving the state of Montana.
And regardless of how much time I have or dont have I am not taking a marginal shot.
I could see this if my name was Saddlesore Jr, and if I lived out West and had all season to hunt and wait for a perfect shot angle, but, traveling out West for an Elk hunt, and damn sure loading up and heading out for an African Safari, man I have to be prepared to reach vitals from any angle I'm lucky enough to get.
I don't get any longer to hunt than nonresidents. Seasons are the same. I learned a long time ago it is where you hit them rather than with what. Taking marginal shots doesn't fascinate me.
I agree, a gut shot is a gut shot, busting a buck or bull in the flank, last rib or even on the butt with enough horsepower and bullet construction to penetrate angling towards and wreck the vitals is not marginal, in fact, I shot a Cape Buffalo on the butt with a 400gr 40 cal solid, the bullet was found in the neck, liver, lungs and the large vessels above the heart were all punched clean, a quick and mortal hit on that buffalo, that happened after he caught a bonded Woodleigh Weldcore in the shoulders, he was done for and no one got roughed up.
I could see this if my name was Saddlesore Jr, and if I lived out West and had all season to hunt and wait for a perfect shot angle, but, traveling out West for an Elk hunt, and damn sure loading up and heading out for an African Safari, man I have to be prepared to reach vitals from any angle I'm lucky enough to get.
I don't get any longer to hunt than nonresidents. Seasons are the same. I learned a long time ago it is where you hit them rather than with what. Taking marginal shots doesn't fascinate me.
I agree, a gut shot is a gut shot, busting a buck or bull in the flank, last rib or even on the butt with enough horsepower and bullet construction to penetrate angling towards and wreck the vitals is not marginal, in fact, I shot a Cape Buffalo on the butt with a 400gr 40 cal solid, the bullet was found in the neck, liver, lungs and the large vessels above the heart were all punched clean, a quick and mortal hit on that buffalo, that happened after he caught a bonded Woodleigh Weldcore in the shoulders, he was done for and no one got roughed up.
Thank You gunner! I wanted to say something similar!
Though I fully agree….you don’t take “marginal shots” with “marginal” cartridges/bullets!
A man has got to know his limitations and the limitations of his/her hunting firearm! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
Yes Sir memtb, I didn't really know what SaddleSore and BWalker were getting at, I could only guess a miss or animals vitals obstructed by terrain, brush etc, I wont shoot in those cases either, but, if I can see a path to the vitals, I turn a hard hammering shot loose on 'em Sir ; ]
Yes Sir memtb, I didn't really know what SaddleSore and BWalker were getting at, I could only guess a miss or animals vitals obstructed by terrain, brush etc, I wont shoot in those cases either, but, if I can see a path to the vitals, I turn a hard hammering shot loose on 'em Sir ; ]
If the shot is such I can't take out both lungs I won't shoot. Elk can live a long time and travel very far on one lung and ai hate dealing with those kinds of rodeos.
When my bullet penetrates completely, taking out a lot of organs (liver being a very important organ), causing a lot of tissue damage, likely cutting/tearing many blood vessels, fully perforating a lung, and taking out the offside shoulder as it exits the animal……I suspect that it will only be an “8 second rodeo)! 😉 memtb
Last edited by memtb; 01/22/25.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
When my bullet penetrates completely, taking out a lot of organs (liver being a very important organ), causing a lot of tissue damage, likely cutting/tearing many blood vessels, fully perforating a lung, and taking out the offside shoulder as it exits the animal……I suspect that it will only be an “8 second rodeo)! 😉 memtb
If you only perforate one lung, regardless if the liver or far shoulder is completely penetrated or not, you’ll very possibly be in for an all night rodeo queen experience.
When my bullet penetrates completely, taking out a lot of organs (liver being a very important organ), causing a lot of tissue damage, likely cutting/tearing many blood vessels, fully perforating a lung, and taking out the offside shoulder as it exits the animal……I suspect that it will only be an “8 second rodeo)! 😉 memtb
If you only perforate one lung, regardless if the liver or far shoulder is completely penetrated or not, you’ll very possibly be in for an all night rodeo queen experience.
For the most part I am a fan of Barnes bullets. I have used the 180 TSX and the 200 LRX with great results. I like a bullet that can break shoulder bones and exit.
For my 45 Colt Bisley revolver I like cast bullets that can do the same.
I guess that I was thinking about the quartering away shot as in a previously……..in which case a bullet starting just forward of the hip, with the offside shoulder the desired exit point…..a lung and a diaphragm will be encountered! Damaging the diaphragm alone, will hinder the animals ability to breathe properly…..taking out a lung helps assure this!
So far….this has been a non-issue!
It’s really not that difficult to determine your desired bullet entrance point when you know where you want the bullet to exit. memtb
Last edited by memtb; 01/22/25.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
Yes Sir memtb, I didn't really know what SaddleSore and BWalker were getting at, I could only guess a miss or animals vitals obstructed by terrain, brush etc, I wont shoot in those cases either, but, if I can see a path to the vitals, I turn a hard hammering shot loose on 'em Sir ; ]
If the shot is such I can't take out both lungs I won't shoot. Elk can live a long time and travel very far on one lung and ai hate dealing with those kinds of rodeos.
You guys have much more experience with elk than me, have only killed five on my own, with two assists, funny both assists came from an old lightweight easy carrying FN Browning 375 H&H, shot one fleeing small 5x4 bull on assist right on the butt, he collapsed and died, it gets dark and cold early on those mountains, didn't look for the bullet, it was old style 250gr X bullet, left the muzzle at 2915 fps over RL-15.
Wrecked that bulls rear running gear, a lot to do with that shot may have been cartridge and bullet used, the other assist was a cow, right through both shoulders, knocked her steering box wacky, looked like chubby checker trying to keep her front end running right, she dropped.
After seventy years of hunting in a variety of places and game, there have been many surprises that break the "rules". By about half-way through that period, I adopted what later would be a short version of Hagel's dictum: Take more than "enough gun" because you never know all the conditions you might be called upon to deal with.
I once shot a very good buck between neck and shoulder when it emerged from the bush (in a snow storm) 35 yds below me. It folded right there with its rack hanging up in a 10" maple. My rifle: a Ruger 77 SS with the "boat paddle" stock. Cartridge: .300 Win Mag. Bullet: 180gr Hor Int. MV = 3000 fps. But there wasn't blood anywhere, neither from the entrance (which I couldn't find) nor was there an exit, but DRT! Evidence of the sheer effect of energy. Yes, location was important, but all that energy was deposited right there. Never found the bullet nor any fragments.
Shot a groundhog with my .223 (have shot hundreds). Bullet was a 52gr Nosler BT at +3100 fps. Range: 30 yds. It was facing me so I shot it under the chin. It dropped to the shot. Went to pick it up and no blood anywhere. Just like the deer, couldn't find the entrance and no exit. Some might say it was a miss and it died from a heart attack!
One thing I do know for sure is nothing will drop big game with a single shot like a Big Bore! Too much? Yeah!! You take the shot given in my area here in Eastern Canada because that's all you'll get! Yep, sometimes from the rear or front on!
I have been hunting elk just shy of 60 years I decide last season was the end of it but I might put in a for tag this year and go out to sit close to my ride if I can find some one to pack my elk out if a really stupid one walks by me.
I few years ago, I counted all my punched elk tags that I have save over the years. It was a little past 50 and I have taken several cow elk with my muzzle loader since then.
Bulls got too big for me to handle and I could no longer fight the snow.
I have hard lot f excuses in those years, from I had to travel 1500 miles, pay $1000 for tag and I am darn sure gong to shoot an elk no matter what shot is offered, I only hunt weekends and I have to take what ever is offered, I hunt nasty country and it is the only shot I will ever get, I'd rather take half an elk home instead of none, my super duper shoulder crunching magnum with magic bullets will plow through the entire length of an elk, I can hit a running elk with no problem, and several I have undoubtedly forgot.
I have no doubt, in that mix, there have been more than few elk wounded and lost that we never hear about. Myself, I have lost two elk over the years. Undoubtedly my fault. What I have learned is if I waited only a few seconds, the elk will turn and present a definite kill shot.
Killing an elk is not a high thing in my priorities as to why I hunted elk. It was definitely close to the top as I like the meat. I never kicked myself if I went home with an unpunched tag. More power to you if you think a particular bullet is your holy grail. I am not telling anyone to change, but there is ample proof that pure lead bullet going 1500 fps will kill elk just as well. The demise of millions of bison proved that a 150 years ago.
Carry on with your confidence. If it works for you, great.
Last edited by saddlesore; 01/23/25.
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
I once shot a very good buck between neck and shoulder when it emerged from the bush (in a snow storm) 35 yds below me. It folded right there with its rack hanging up in a 10" maple. My rifle: a Ruger 77 SS with the "boat paddle" stock. Cartridge: .300 Win Mag. Bullet: 180gr Hor Int. MV = 3000 fps. But there wasn't blood anywhere, neither from the entrance (which I couldn't find) nor was there an exit, but DRT! Evidence of the sheer effect of energy. Yes, location was important, but all that energy was deposited right there. Never found the bullet nor any fragments.
Shot a groundhog with my .223 (have shot hundreds). Bullet was a 52gr Nosler BT at +3100 fps. Range: 30 yds. It was facing me so I shot it under the chin. It dropped to the shot. Went to pick it up and no blood anywhere. Just like the deer, couldn't find the entrance and no exit. Some might say it was a miss and it died from a heart attack!
Bob,
Animals don't die from holes in the hide, nor from "energy deposit," but from scrambled internals where it counts.
Yes, destroying organs requires a transfer of kinetic energy from the bullet to the tissue, but thinking in terms of depositing energy is overly simplistic and not very useful.
In my case I have had 6 or 7 absolutely terrible bullet performances. Only one was due to lack of penetration. The rest were all because the bullets did not expand. Two were from 338 Magnum rifles, one was using an early Barnes X hollow point I think was 230 grains. Another from the same rifle was using a 250 grain Sierra. Both were relatively well hit at long range, around 450 yards. Temps below zero. No expansion both bullets hit lungs and both elk traveled more than a half mile in deep snow most annoyingly uphill. Both elk were tracked and shot in their beds. Then cut up in blizzards and dragged down the mountain to where a snow machine could reach.It is possible the bullets were never tested in below zero temps or at long range. I carried a long standing disgust for Barnes bullets over this particular failure.
In my case I have had 6 or 7 absolutely terrible bullet performances. Only one was due to lack of penetration. The rest were all because the bullets did not expand. Two were from 338 Magnum rifles, one was using an early Barnes X hollow point I think was 230 grains. Another from the same rifle was using a 250 grain Sierra. Both were relatively well hit at long range, around 450 yards. Temps below zero. No expansion both bullets hit lungs and both elk traveled more than a half mile in deep snow most annoyingly uphill. Both elk were tracked and shot in their beds. Then cut up in blizzards and dragged down the mountain to where a snow machine could reach. It is possible the bullets were never tested in below zero temps or at long range. I carried a long standing disgust for Barnes bullets over this particular failure.
And for Sierra, as well, I suppose?
I would much rather that a wounded animal travel uphill from my destination than downhill.
I had a 250 grain sierra started at 2900 fps pencil through a mule deer buck. Ended up shooting it 3 times with those bullets to finally kill it. Must have a very hard core or something. Quit using them. Then shot a whitetail at 120 yards with a 200 grain ballistic tip doing 3200 fps. Hit onside shoulder and bullet fragged lungs and didn't exit. That was the end of my 340 Roy testing.
In my case I have had 6 or 7 absolutely terrible bullet performances. Only one was due to lack of penetration. The rest were all because the bullets did not expand. Two were from 338 Magnum rifles, one was using an early Barnes X hollow point I think was 230 grains. Another from the same rifle was using a 250 grain Sierra. Both were relatively well hit at long range, around 450 yards. Temps below zero. No expansion both bullets hit lungs and both elk traveled more than a half mile in deep snow most annoyingly uphill. Both elk were tracked and shot in their beds. Then cut up in blizzards and dragged down the mountain to where a snow machine could reach. It is possible the bullets were never tested in below zero temps or at long range. I carried a long standing disgust for Barnes bullets over this particular failure.
And for Sierra, as well, I suppose?
I would much rather than a wounded animal travel uphill from my destination than downhill.
Betting that same bullet you said failed to open is the same bullet barnes I used in a 338 win mag on a caribou at 802 yards. 2 hits. Both expanded. Exits were not big. But they were bigger than the entry. Caribou stood around after the first hit for probably a minute or less while I reloaded and set up steady again and so I attempted the spine on the 2nd shot and got luck and broke it.
Temps for us in AK at the time I am not sure although one of those mornings it was 5 degrees inside our tent, I recall that and the line freezing to the eyes on the rods constantly.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
My preference is for a bullet to expand nicely and leave an exit. Nosler partitions, Barnes TTSXs, TBBCs, Federal T/As have all done this with no failures on various sizes and types of game. Pick one that shoots good in your rifle and put it where it should go and there's no drama.
I believe that all the new Barnes are much better than the original offering and the early TSX. I’ve used them all …..including the “pre groove” Barnes mono. All worked acceptably, though they’re much better now…..in both accuracy and expansion characteristics! But not beyond 430 yards….though those 250 grain TTSX’s worked very well on that Pronghorn.
We’ve never used the “pre groove” Barnes mono in my wife’s .338 WM, I think that we started (I’d have to check my books) with the TTSX in 225 grain. She’s made some pretty impressive kills on stuff out to 400 yards with it! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
In my case I have had 6 or 7 absolutely terrible bullet performances. Only one was due to lack of penetration. The rest were all because the bullets did not expand. Two were from 338 Magnum rifles, one was using an early Barnes X hollow point I think was 230 grains. Another from the same rifle was using a 250 grain Sierra. Both were relatively well hit at long range, around 450 yards. Temps below zero. No expansion both bullets hit lungs and both elk traveled more than a half mile in deep snow most annoyingly uphill. Both elk were tracked and shot in their beds. Then cut up in blizzards and dragged down the mountain to where a snow machine could reach. It is possible the bullets were never tested in below zero temps or at long range. I carried a long standing disgust for Barnes bullets over this particular failure.
And for Sierra, as well, I suppose?
I would much rather than a wounded animal travel uphill from my destination than downhill.
It depends, are they traveling towards the truck or away from the truck?😁
I’ve never had an elk run away with an exit hole somewhere in the front half. I killed four broadside elk with a 308 and 150g TTSXs that didn’t open up much but none of the elk took more than a few steps. I did have a double lunged caribou run 300+ yds in the open tundra when shot with a X Bullet that exited but failed to expand.
I’ve had more than a few elk races when bullets expanded too much, or broke up, and failed to penetrate very far, even with easy broadside shots.
I’ve killed a lot of elk heavily quartering away where the bullet had to travel through a portion of the back half to reach the front half. A stomach full of grass will slow down a bullet darn near as much as bone.
Moderate expansion, deep penetration across a wide range of velocities. Partitions are among the best at that.
Copper bullets weak link is lower velocity expansion. There’s room for improvement in that regard.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively... Having said that, MAGA.
In my case I have had 6 or 7 absolutely terrible bullet performances. Only one was due to lack of penetration. The rest were all because the bullets did not expand. Two were from 338 Magnum rifles, one was using an early Barnes X hollow point I think was 230 grains. Another from the same rifle was using a 250 grain Sierra. Both were relatively well hit at long range, around 450 yards. Temps below zero. No expansion both bullets hit lungs and both elk traveled more than a half mile in deep snow most annoyingly uphill. Both elk were tracked and shot in their beds. Then cut up in blizzards and dragged down the mountain to where a snow machine could reach. It is possible the bullets were never tested in below zero temps or at long range. I carried a long standing disgust for Barnes bullets over this particular failure.
And for Sierra, as well, I suppose?
I would much rather that a wounded animal travel uphill from my destination than downhill.
The shot with the Sierra wind drifted a bit back and went through the liver clipping one lung. No expansion, small exit wound. However starting velocity might have been less than load workup indicated at 80 degrees compared to -4 degrees. Or it could have been low impact velocity for a known reasonably tough bullet. Maybe cold temps affected expansion. At any rate I never used that bullet again. The same bullet dropped a big cow elk at 50 yards expanded and exited. Took three elk with that rifle two were horrendous recoveries and one easy though still had to get it across a mostly frozen over La Barge creek. And if the elk had traveled downhill that would have been toward the road.
In my case I have had 6 or 7 absolutely terrible bullet performances. Only one was due to lack of penetration. The rest were all because the bullets did not expand. Two were from 338 Magnum rifles, one was using an early Barnes X hollow point I think was 230 grains. Another from the same rifle was using a 250 grain Sierra. Both were relatively well hit at long range, around 450 yards. Temps below zero. No expansion both bullets hit lungs and both elk traveled more than a half mile in deep snow most annoyingly uphill. Both elk were tracked and shot in their beds. Then cut up in blizzards and dragged down the mountain to where a snow machine could reach. It is possible the bullets were never tested in below zero temps or at long range. I carried a long standing disgust for Barnes bullets over this particular failure.
And for Sierra, as well, I suppose?
I would much rather than a wounded animal travel uphill from my destination than downhill.
It depends, are they traveling towards the truck or away from the truck?😁
I’ve never had an elk run away with an exit hole somewhere in the front half. I killed four broadside elk with a 308 and 150g TTSXs that didn’t open up much but none of the elk took more than a few steps. I did have a double lunged caribou run 300+ yds in the open tundra when shot with a X Bullet that exited but failed to expand.
I’ve had more than a few elk races when bullets expanded too much, or broke up, and failed to penetrate very far, even with easy broadside shots.
I’ve killed a lot of elk heavily quartering away where the bullet had to travel through a portion of the back half to reach the front half. A stomach full of grass will slow down a bullet darn near as much as bone.
Moderate expansion, deep penetration across a wide range of velocities. Partitions are among the best at that.
Copper bullets weak link is lower velocity expansion. There’s room for improvement in that regard.
If given the choice, running uphill (assuming I have to go uphill to get to the truck) and toward the truck is ideal!
In my case I have had 6 or 7 absolutely terrible bullet performances. Only one was due to lack of penetration. The rest were all because the bullets did not expand. Two were from 338 Magnum rifles, one was using an early Barnes X hollow point I think was 230 grains. Another from the same rifle was using a 250 grain Sierra. Both were relatively well hit at long range, around 450 yards. Temps below zero. No expansion both bullets hit lungs and both elk traveled more than a half mile in deep snow most annoyingly uphill. Both elk were tracked and shot in their beds. Then cut up in blizzards and dragged down the mountain to where a snow machine could reach. It is possible the bullets were never tested in below zero temps or at long range. I carried a long standing disgust for Barnes bullets over this particular failure.
And for Sierra, as well, I suppose?
I would much rather than a wounded animal travel uphill from my destination than downhill.
Betting that same bullet you said failed to open is the same bullet barnes I used in a 338 win mag on a caribou at 802 yards. 2 hits. Both expanded. Exits were not big. But they were bigger than the entry. Caribou stood around after the first hit for probably a minute or less while I reloaded and set up steady again and so I attempted the spine on the 2nd shot and got luck and broke it.
Temps for us in AK at the time I am not sure although one of those mornings it was 5 degrees inside our tent, I recall that and the line freezing to the eyes on the rods constantly.
What got me with the early Barnes Mono bullets, they were comparatively expensive. Didn't appreciate being the consumer test dummy. I invested in some for my 270 that same year and every deer shot was a runner. One took 6 shots from 2 different people before it dropped it's head. Then the Elk fiasco. It went uphill, over the first ridge and then up to the next ridge. Pretty much vertical. Had to break him down carry him up to the first ridge and then wrangle his heavy pieces to where they could slide down a ways. My hunting buddy had shot his elk within seconds of me shooting mine. So in reality we recovered two elk that day from the wrong side of La barge creek. Jimmy and I were sitting on metal folding chairs, no fire just resting when the Game warden pulls up, counts the seven quarters and said "one of them elk only have 3 legs". I said one more trip across the creek sir. He didn't even check our licenses just said good luck.
[quote=rickt300]In my case I have had 6 or 7 absolutely terrible bullet performances. Only one was due to lack of penetration. The rest were all because the bullets did not expand. Two were from 338 Magnum rifles, one was using an early Barnes X hollow point I think was 230 grains. Another from the same rifle was using a 250 grain Sierra. Both were relatively well hit at long range, around 450 yards. Temps below zero. No expansion both bullets hit lungs and both elk traveled more than a half mile in deep snow most annoyingly uphill. Both elk were tracked and shot in their beds. Then cut up in blizzards and dragged down the mountain to where a snow machine could reach. It is possible the bullets were never tested in below zero temps or at long range. I carried a long standing disgust for Barnes bullets over this particular failure.
And for Sierra, as well, I suppose?
Copper bullets weak link is lower velocity expansion. There’s room for improvement in that regard.
I've had great results with Barnes LRX bullets for several years now. They're designed to expand at lower impact velocities, and have yet to see on fail to open at impact velocities down to around 1900-2000 fps.
The difference in design is apparently a LONGER hollow-point cavity, resulting in longer petals--which means more leverage on the petals. In fact, finally recovered one this past fall, a 129 from my NULA 6.5-.284. It was a BIG Montana whitetail buck, both in body and antlers, taken at 50 yards, as it stood angling away. The bullet only retained one petal--which was very long. Retained weight was 68%, the lowest I've ever experienced with a TSX of any caliber/weight--but it worked.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
[quote=rickt300]In my case I have had 6 or 7 absolutely terrible bullet performances. Only one was due to lack of penetration. The rest were all because the bullets did not expand. Two were from 338 Magnum rifles, one was using an early Barnes X hollow point I think was 230 grains. Another from the same rifle was using a 250 grain Sierra. Both were relatively well hit at long range, around 450 yards. Temps below zero. No expansion both bullets hit lungs and both elk traveled more than a half mile in deep snow most annoyingly uphill. Both elk were tracked and shot in their beds. Then cut up in blizzards and dragged down the mountain to where a snow machine could reach. It is possible the bullets were never tested in below zero temps or at long range. I carried a long standing disgust for Barnes bullets over this particular failure.
And for Sierra, as well, I suppose?
Copper bullets weak link is lower velocity expansion. There’s room for improvement in that regard.
I've had great results with Barnes LRX bullets for several years now. They're designed to expand at lower impact velocities, and have yet to see on fail to open at impact velocities down to around 1900-2000 fps.
The difference in design is apparently a LONGER hollow-point cavity, resulting in longer petals--which means more leverage on the petals. In fact, finally recovered one this past fall, a 129 from my NULA 6.5-.284. It was a BIG Montana whitetail buck, both in body and antlers, taken at 50 yards, as it stood angling away. The bullet only retained one petal--which was very long. Retained weight was 68%, the lowest I've ever experienced with a TSX of any caliber/weight--but it worked.
I have used some of the TTSX Barnes and have to say they are fine bullets. And I am a big fan of Barnes Matchburners. Barnes is no longer on my schit list. But for 20 years at least!
[quote=rickt300]In my case I have had 6 or 7 absolutely terrible bullet performances. Only one was due to lack of penetration. The rest were all because the bullets did not expand. Two were from 338 Magnum rifles, one was using an early Barnes X hollow point I think was 230 grains. Another from the same rifle was using a 250 grain Sierra. Both were relatively well hit at long range, around 450 yards. Temps below zero. No expansion both bullets hit lungs and both elk traveled more than a half mile in deep snow most annoyingly uphill. Both elk were tracked and shot in their beds. Then cut up in blizzards and dragged down the mountain to where a snow machine could reach. It is possible the bullets were never tested in below zero temps or at long range. I carried a long standing disgust for Barnes bullets over this particular failure.
And for Sierra, as well, I suppose?
Copper bullets weak link is lower velocity expansion. There’s room for improvement in that regard.
I've had great results with Barnes LRX bullets for several years now. They're designed to expand at lower impact velocities, and have yet to see on fail to open at impact velocities down to around 1900-2000 fps.
The difference in design is apparently a LONGER hollow-point cavity, resulting in longer petals--which means more leverage on the petals. In fact, finally recovered one this past fall, a 129 from my NULA 6.5-.284. It was a BIG Montana whitetail buck, both in body and antlers, taken at 50 yards, as it stood angling away. The bullet only retained one petal--which was very long. Retained weight was 68%, the lowest I've ever experienced with a TSX of any caliber/weight--but it worked.
Do you mean the 127, John? I assume so, and that's the model of LRX that I have thus far recovered with disproportionate frequency compared to other Barnes bullets. I pulled one out of a WT buck and another from a MD buck. A third was stopped just in front of the hips of a bull moose on a frontal shot, but we didn't recover the bullet as it was dark in grizzly country and we didn't spend all that long looking. In fairness, that shot on the moose would stop most bullets.
Have to assume both the WT and MD bucks were dead. Did they go very far?
And yes, that shot on the moose would result almost any bullet staying inside. In 1996 I killed a big Alaskan bull with a 230-grain Combined Technology Fail Safe, started at around 2800 from a .338 Winchester Magnum. The bull was a little over 100 yards away, quartering strongly tovis, ward me, and I put the bullet just inside the near shoulder. Found it against the front side of the pelvis, retaining 89% of its weight.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
What is your theory on why a bullet might not expand in cold temperatures?
Muzzle velocity being lowered and possible impact velocity was too low for good expansion. That particular Sierra bullet is known for being a tough one. My buddy joked that after traveling 450 yards in -4 degrees in the snow it had frozen solid. We were trying to find something funny about the recovery of two elk on the wrong side of La Barge creek.
What is your theory on why a bullet might not expand in cold temperatures?
Muzzle velocity being lowered and possible impact velocity was too low for good expansion. That particular Sierra bullet is known for being a tough one. My buddy joked that after traveling 450 yards in -4 degrees in the snow it had frozen solid. We were trying to find something funny about the recovery of two elk on the wrong side of La Barge creek.
I don't think that things traveling at 2 1/2 times the speed of sound 'cool off'.........
And I don't think it would freeze in less than a second....
YMMV
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
Have to assume both the WT and MD bucks were dead. Did they go very far?
And yes, that shot on the moose would result almost any bullet staying inside. In 1996 I killed a big Alaskan bull with a 230-grain Combined Technology Fail Safe, started at around 2800 from a .338 Winchester Magnum. The bull was a little over 100 yards away, quartering strongly tovis, ward me, and I put the bullet just inside the near shoulder. Found it against the front side of the pelvis, retaining 89% of its weight.
Both were certainly very dead, and neither went in any direction other than down. The shot on the WT buck was angling down from between the shoulder blades to the throat. Recovered under the skin of the throat patch. The shot on the MD was angling away, with the bullet entering near the last onside rib and bumping into the offside humerus, where it broke off a petal and stopped. I was just surprised that neither penetrated as far as I would have expected, given my experience with this and other models of Barnes bullets.
I believe that all the new Barnes are much better than the original offering and the early TSX. I’ve used them all …..including the “pre groove” Barnes mono. All worked acceptably, though they’re much better now…..in both accuracy and expansion characteristics! But not beyond 430 yards….though those 250 grain TTSX’s worked very well on that Pronghorn.
We’ve never used the “pre groove” Barnes mono in my wife’s .338 WM, I think that we started (I’d have to check my books) with the TTSX in 225 grain. She’s made some pretty impressive kills on stuff out to 400 yards with it! memtb
I've shot from pre groove to ttsx LRX etc... I have NEVER had an issue with one.
I know some that have that I trust. All were pre groove tsx.
Thats not actually true. I did have accuracy issues a couple of times with the pre grooves. One in a 22-250 that shot under MOA normally. Shot around 14 inches with barnes.
But for bullet performance I"ve never had to ask for better, though the 802 yard caribou is as far as I have currently used a barnes on game. That may change one day. I have this really good spot at 1031 yards but the right deer has never been by there in the right shootable conditions.
I put my life and my clients life in barnes hands for various large game species including brown bears and we are often within 15 to 20 yards of them and we are often talking 9 foot to 10 foot plus bears. They have yet to let me down as noted.
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Yes, I meant the 127.
Have to assume both the WT and MD bucks were dead. Did they go very far?
And yes, that shot on the moose would result almost any bullet staying inside. In 1996 I killed a big Alaskan bull with a 230-grain Combined Technology Fail Safe, started at around 2800 from a .338 Winchester Magnum. The bull was a little over 100 yards away, quartering strongly tovis, ward me, and I put the bullet just inside the near shoulder. Found it against the front side of the pelvis, retaining 89% of its weight.
Both were certainly very dead, and neither went in any direction other than down. The shot on the WT buck was angling down from between the shoulder blades to the throat. Recovered under the skin of the throat patch. The shot on the MD was angling away, with the bullet entering near the last onside rib and bumping into the offside humerus, where it broke off a petal and stopped. I was just surprised that neither penetrated as far as I would have expected, given my experience with this and other models of Barnes bullets.
And that is likely due somewhat to the demands of so much expansion by so many that really don't actually need it but think they need it. I cannot recount how much game, but its been probably over 50 less than 100, that I've shot with round balls and cast conicals that rarely ever expand much if any. All died. Anyway we have this faction that wants really big damage and big holes. You generally cannot get both. Big holes/expansion and deep penetration.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
rost495, I too knew some that had major accuracy issues with the pre-groove Barnes’.
These early bullets seemed to be exceptionally sensitive to anything with a less than perfect bore. And, with my limited experience……it seemed that the smaller the bore the greater the issues.
My rifle, .375 cal. with a “match grade” barrel shot them pretty good…. around 1 1/2” groups @ 100. My wife’s .338 WM was only good for about 3” 100 yard groups ……until I spent a great deal of time “hand lapping” the bore.
A good friend, bought a brand new Rem. 700 in 25-06…..one of the early SS models. After a few shots, it was so badly fouled…..the groups @ 100 couldn’t be covered with your typical coffee cup saucer. I finally convinced him to do the “hand lapping”. He did, it was much improved……but nothing that you could brag about. The following elk season, he did however, kill the largest bodied bull elk I’ve ever seen. One shot, through the lungs, one the run at about 50 to 75 yards!
The original “X’s” had a notorious reputation for excessive fouling. The grooved X Bullets helped tremendously to elevate this problem. memtb
Last edited by memtb; 01/24/25.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
Have to assume both the WT and MD bucks were dead. Did they go very far?
And yes, that shot on the moose would result almost any bullet staying inside. In 1996 I killed a big Alaskan bull with a 230-grain Combined Technology Fail Safe, started at around 2800 from a .338 Winchester Magnum. The bull was a little over 100 yards away, quartering strongly tovis, ward me, and I put the bullet just inside the near shoulder. Found it against the front side of the pelvis, retaining 89% of its weight.
Back in my teens, the late 90’s, my magnumitus was in full force. I had a .338 Win and used those 230 grain failsafes on a few critters. I remember one smallish black bear who stopped that bullet at maybe 100 yards. I don’t recall the specifics but it didn’t seem like much of a bullet test. I can’t remember what else I killed with that rifle combo but do remember that bullet surprising me on lack of penetration. It killed well, but didn’t exit on some relatively small critters.
Also had the 270 grain .375 H&H Failsafe stay inside a mid sized whitetail buck at 150-200 yards. Broke all the petals off and was in the gooey lung mess, not up against the skin or bone. That was a stem to stern shot and went through the stomach, so I guess that one shouldn’t be too surprising.
What is your theory on why a bullet might not expand in cold temperatures?
Muzzle velocity being lowered and possible impact velocity was too low for good expansion. That particular Sierra bullet is known for being a tough one. My buddy joked that after traveling 450 yards in -4 degrees in the snow it had frozen solid. We were trying to find something funny about the recovery of two elk on the wrong side of La Barge creek.
I don't think that things traveling at 2 1/2 times the speed of sound 'cool off'.........
And I don't think it would freeze in less than a second....
YMMV
Well that ammo had been outside with me in the rifle all morning on a day that -4 was the high so probably pretty cold. Virtually everything else was frozen solid, except La Barge creek, it was running strong under thin ice.
Chiming in on the Barnes results, I have to admit that TTSX bullets, even at moderate impact speeds, have generally yielded better blood trails for me than I would have expected from such tough bullets that are known more for penetration than anything else. This, even on broadside lung shots on deer and hogs. While things might not be quite as wrecked as they would with a typical cup/core, they still do notable and adequate+ damage to soft tissue, on average.
What is your theory on why a bullet might not expand in cold temperatures?
Muzzle velocity being lowered and possible impact velocity was too low for good expansion. That particular Sierra bullet is known for being a tough one. My buddy joked that after traveling 450 yards in -4 degrees in the snow it had frozen solid. We were trying to find something funny about the recovery of two elk on the wrong side of La Barge creek.
I don't think that things traveling at 2 1/2 times the speed of sound 'cool off'.........
And I don't think it would freeze in less than a second....
YMMV
Well that ammo had been outside with me in the rifle all morning on a day that -4 was the high so probably pretty cold. Virtually everything else was frozen solid, except La Barge creek, it was running strong under thin ice.
At least Sierra has taught me one thing from their various bullets, you simply never know what performance you will get out of each time you pull the trigger.
Depends on what powder you were loading with a bit. OTOH I doubt anything should be going so slow at 450 yards even in zero temps, to be that close to the edge of non expansion.
Though Sierra told me once, that using their single shot pistol bullet in a 30-30 and getting 30 cal in 30 cal out and zero blood trails, that I was pushing it too slow. Its a single shot pistol bullet..... I would not have thought it designed at 135? Grains for 30-06 pistols and with long barrels to boot...
Barnes just simply keeps amazing me. Often initial blood trial takes a bit to find. Like 30 feet or so maybe. After that even though we use a dog mostly, the trails are usually really simple and deer not far off. Even with 300 blackout and 110 and 120 Tac X bullets going 2200ish fps MV. At least so far so good to about 250 yards.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Chiming in on the Barnes results, I have to admit that TTSX bullets, even at moderate impact speeds, have generally yielded better blood trails for me than I would have expected from such tough bullets that are known more for penetration than anything else. This, even on broadside lung shots on deer and hogs. While things might not be quite as wrecked as they would with a typical cup/core, they still do notable and adequate+ damage to soft tissue, on average.
The TTSX, and even moreso the LRX, certainly do more damage than did the X and TSX, IME.
Chiming in on the Barnes results, I have to admit that TTSX bullets, even at moderate impact speeds, have generally yielded better blood trails for me than I would have expected from such tough bullets that are known more for penetration than anything else. This, even on broadside lung shots on deer and hogs. While things might not be quite as wrecked as they would with a typical cup/core, they still do notable and adequate+ damage to soft tissue, on average.
The TTSX, and even moreso the LRX, certainly do more damage than did the X and TSX, IME.
The 175 lrx almost always sheds it's petals and as a result put a caliber sized hole through the vitals.
I hope that the .375 , 270 gr. LRX doesn’t do that……I’ll be bummed! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
I hope that the .375 , 270 gr. LRX doesn’t do that……I’ll be bummed! memtb
I have absolutely no concern about that, or with my own load of 338 cal 250gr LRX's leaving at 2900 fps, the damage inflicted from that is going to completely chit-can wreck ANY game animals vitals.
Chiming in on the Barnes results, I have to admit that TTSX bullets, even at moderate impact speeds, have generally yielded better blood trails for me than I would have expected from such tough bullets that are known more for penetration than anything else. This, even on broadside lung shots on deer and hogs. While things might not be quite as wrecked as they would with a typical cup/core, they still do notable and adequate+ damage to soft tissue, on average.
The TTSX, and even moreso the LRX, certainly do more damage than did the X and TSX, IME.
The 175 lrx almost always sheds it's petals and as a result put a caliber sized hole through the vitals.
I'm having a hard time making sense of that. What happens to the petals? IME with something north of 150 Barnes kills, aggressive expansion and fragmentation, including shed petals, typically means massive wound cavities and secondary projectiles that do additional damage. Additionally, the blunt frontal surface of the bullet shank tends to do more damage than a FMJ, leaving a wound cavity that is much larger than a caliber-sized hole. I know you seen a lot of kills with Barnes bullets, as well, so maybe you can help clarify your observations for me.
My observation on shed petals from Barnes bullets is that I find them around the exit hole or near the bullet itself. That leads me to believe that petal was affective throughout out the wound channel. Possibly being attached to that bullet through its travels.
I once shot a very good buck between neck and shoulder when it emerged from the bush (in a snow storm) 35 yds below me. It folded right there with its rack hanging up in a 10" maple. My rifle: a Ruger 77 SS with the "boat paddle" stock. Cartridge: .300 Win Mag. Bullet: 180gr Hor Int. MV = 3000 fps. But there wasn't blood anywhere, neither from the entrance (which I couldn't find) nor was there an exit, but DRT! Evidence of the sheer effect of energy. Yes, location was important, but all that energy was deposited right there. Never found the bullet nor any fragments.
Shot a groundhog with my .223 (have shot hundreds). Bullet was a 52gr Nosler BT at +3100 fps. Range: 30 yds. It was facing me so I shot it under the chin. It dropped to the shot. Went to pick it up and no blood anywhere. Just like the deer, couldn't find the entrance and no exit. Some might say it was a miss and it died from a heart attack!
Bob,
Animals don't die from holes in the hide, nor from "energy deposit," but from scrambled internals where it counts.
Yes, destroying organs requires a transfer of kinetic energy from the bullet to the tissue, but thinking in terms of depositing energy is overly simplistic and not very useful.
I don't see the distinction between "destroying organs" by a transfer of KE to the tissue or "depositing energy" as being "overly simplistic"! Tell me about that. But I'll tell you of at least a couple more instances of sheer energy at work: A 500gr Hornady leaving the muzzle of my Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT (long throat) at ~2200 fps impacting a coon at 25 yds that exploded the coon sending bits and pieces into the trees and bushes around. The week prior I'd killed a bear with that load at 40 yds that left no blood on the ground, though the bullet went off into the trees, a 2 ft loop of bowel (unbroken) on the outside of the bear in the flank of the offside thru a bullet size hole. The innards of the bear was jello and slush.
The other example was the same 500gr Hornady from the same rifle into tough media of two cardboard boxes of dry hardcover books and dry glossy magazines separated by two 2" thick planks. Total 15.5". The only bullets to pass through were solids. But the Hornady 500gr was an older load at 2000 fps. It blew the 1st box upside down, and never past through the planks or into the 2nd box. The bullet was never found nor fragments thereof, nor did it "escape" into the unknown. The inside of the box was confetti. I've fired hundreds of those Hornady 500gr RNSPs in targets, media and animals. But that last was a demonstration of the release of sheer energy!
I consider myself an honest and logical person. To me there's no other explanation.
Are you claiming the bullet evaporated? If it wasn’t in the media it had to have left the box. 500gr of copper and lead doesn’t just cease to exist.
Oddly enough I shot a 510gr WW softnose through a black bear and it didn’t really slush anything up inside. He had a 1.5” hole all the way through him and was dead, after a 40 yard run. Maybe it was the 10 extra grains, maybe the WW bullet was constructed heavier.
As have I. I shot a couple black bears with the Horn 350 from a warm loaded 45-70 and was underwhelmed by the internal damage on ribcage hits. The 400 gr Speer - a different story.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
I once shot a very good buck between neck and shoulder when it emerged from the bush (in a snow storm) 35 yds below me. It folded right there with its rack hanging up in a 10" maple. My rifle: a Ruger 77 SS with the "boat paddle" stock. Cartridge: .300 Win Mag. Bullet: 180gr Hor Int. MV = 3000 fps. But there wasn't blood anywhere, neither from the entrance (which I couldn't find) nor was there an exit, but DRT! Evidence of the sheer effect of energy. Yes, location was important, but all that energy was deposited right there. Never found the bullet nor any fragments.
Shot a groundhog with my .223 (have shot hundreds). Bullet was a 52gr Nosler BT at +3100 fps. Range: 30 yds. It was facing me so I shot it under the chin. It dropped to the shot. Went to pick it up and no blood anywhere. Just like the deer, couldn't find the entrance and no exit. Some might say it was a miss and it died from a heart attack!
Bob,
Animals don't die from holes in the hide, nor from "energy deposit," but from scrambled internals where it counts.
Yes, destroying organs requires a transfer of kinetic energy from the bullet to the tissue, but thinking in terms of depositing energy is overly simplistic and not very useful.
I don't see the distinction between "destroying organs" by a transfer of KE to the tissue or "depositing energy" as being "overly simplistic"! Tell me about that. But I'll tell you of at least a couple more instances of sheer energy at work: A 500gr Hornady leaving the muzzle of my Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT (long throat) at ~2200 fps impacting a coon at 25 yds that exploded the coon sending bits and pieces into the trees and bushes around. The week prior I'd killed a bear with that load at 40 yds that left no blood on the ground, though the bullet went off into the trees, a 2 ft loop of bowel (unbroken) on the outside of the bear in the flank of the offside thru a bullet size hole. The innards of the bear was jello and slush.
The other example was the same 500gr Hornady from the same rifle into tough media of two cardboard boxes of dry hardcover books and dry glossy magazines separated by two 2" thick planks. Total 15.5". The only bullets to pass through were solids. But the Hornady 500gr was an older load at 2000 fps. It blew the 1st box upside down, and never past through the planks or into the 2nd box. The bullet was never found nor fragments thereof, nor did it "escape" into the unknown. The inside of the box was confetti. I've fired hundreds of those Hornady 500gr RNSPs in targets, media and animals. But that last was a demonstration of the release of sheer energy!
I consider myself an honest and logical person. To me there's no other explanation.
I appreciate that you are an honest and logical person. Physics is not a simple subject and is often unintuitive, however.
The correlation between tissue damage and the bullet’s kinetic energy is weak. It’s not the quantity of kinetic energy the bullet has going into the animal that matters, but how it is used, which is highly complex and variable from shot to shot. As an anecdotal example, I’ve watched prairie dogs explode on impact from a 50 gr VM fired from a .22-250, which others shot with a 270 gr SP from a .375 H&H simple flopped over with a hole through them. Predicting tissue damage using the relative quantities of kinetic energy on impact in overly simplistic; there’s a lot more to it.
In your examples, the displacement of tissue by the bullet overcame the elastic limits of said tissue, but this is more a function of bullet diameter and rate and amount of expansion/fragmentation. A fragile, light .458” bullet could accomplish the same thing at a much slower speed and with less kinetic energy. The example with the box is more an illustration of impulse than kinetic energy.
As have I. I shot a couple black bears with the Horn 350 from a warm loaded 45-70 and was underwhelmed by the internal damage on ribcage hits. The 400 gr Speer - a different story.
Which 350, the RN or FP?
Agreed on the elk 400 Speer. That sucker makes a swath when it touches down.
I’ve been very happy with the performance of Cutting Edge 125 gr Maximus and 130 gr MTH in my .308. The fracturing petals do great internal damage to the boiler room and the base is typically right under the far side hide. Every animal I’ve shot with them has passed quickly.
As have I. I shot a couple black bears with the Horn 350 from a warm loaded 45-70 and was underwhelmed by the internal damage on ribcage hits. The 400 gr Speer - a different story.
I had piss poor results using the 350 gr. Round nose out of my Guide gun. I only ran it at 1800 fps but felt I was getting zero expansion and surprisingly little blood on the ground. A soft cast 350 grain flat nose out of a LEE mold only going 1550fps was a very good killing load.
I prefer to have a bullet dump most all its energy into the target, I dont care if I get an exit or not. I usually take neck shots, secondary is high shoulder shot to drop them where they stand. Tertiary is a tight behind the shoulder into the lungs, though I’ll usually let them walk if thats the shot presented, as most of the places I hunt I cant have a deer running off and hopping property lines. Tried to do the right thing once and recover a deer that literally hopped a fence and died right on the other side-I wont be making that mistake again. Currently using a 123gr eldm @3100 out of a 6.5prc and absolutely loving it, about a dozen deer with it so far.
Browning A5 sweet 16, Maxus 12ga, and X bolt, 6.5PRC #269 Schwacker, 650gr total weight, 30%FOC Ugly Stick Ultralight and spiderwire 6lb stealth braid for everything.
On my first trip out to the store in 1984 to buy bullets, I went with my buddy who offered to teach me reloading. He pointed to the red Hornady boxes.
"If you can, start with these. If you find you need something better, go with these." He pointed to the Nosler Partitions.
When I started reloading on my own, several years later, I took his advice. I looked for the red boxes first, Hornady Interlock. In the places where I could not find an IL that suited me, I bought Remington Corelokt, and they seemed to do as well. To date, I've never felt the need to go with the Noslers. Over 25 years, I've branched out a bit. Some are Speers. However, everything has been at about the same price point and standard cup and core construction.
My general strategy is to go for the least cost solution that gets the job done.
The job? Almost 100% of my hunting reloads have been for whitetail, and for the longest time, I had not shot a deer outside of 80 yards. I was hunting out of the same treestands I used for bow hunting, and these situated in thick woods that did not lend themselves to long shots. I've stretched out a bit in the past 20 years. My longest shot to date has been 200 yards. That was a bang-flop on a big buck 3 years ago.
Penetration? I've never recovered a bullet. I get a hole going in and out the other side. I may have a pencil going in but at least a thumb-sized hole coming out. Inside, it's utter devastation. I aim to take out both lungs and the top of the heart.
Blood Trail? Over 90% of the shots I've taken in 40 years have resulted in either a) the deer dies on the spot, or b) I can stand in the deer's tracks and see the carcass. Where the tracking the deer has been an issue, I've found that the angle of the shot determines the amount of blood. If I'm shooting at a high angle, the bullet comes out the bottom of the chest and the blood trail is quick and effusive. From level ground, I may not get blood for 50 yards or more, but once the chest cavity fills, the blood trail is ample. However, the carcass is usually not more than 10 yards further on.
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