Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Handgun bullets, hard cast vs JHP

Instead of hijacking another threat I figure I'd start this one. It seems there's a strong following with the hard cast bullets on game out of handgun cartridges. For this post, we'll stick with the 44 magnum out of revolvers just to keep in somewhat simple. I do not intend to start a "taste great/less filling" post but I am curious as to what everyone's experiences are. I have only taken one WT doe to date with a handgun and that was with a handloaded 240gr Hornady XTP out of a 7.5" Ruger SRH (44 mag) at 32 yards. Deer ran maybe 80 yards and fell. Performance was great in my opinion and accuracy is about as good as I can shoot. I don't have any plans on changing the load but I'm interested in everyone else's experiences as one deer just really is well...just one deer. Thanks

I could comment on my choices but I have yet to whack a critter with my revolvers so I'll not speculate.

I posted on a similar thread earlier: I've taken only two deer with my .44 (a 7.5" SBH)-both with the same bullet to which you referred. Both were broadside shots at 50 yards or less. Both bullets clearly performed as asked, penetrating fully, expanding adequately and providing modest, but leaky exit holes. Neither deer traveled more than 25 yards after being hit.

I was impressed that the XTP performed like the Goldilocks story: not too much, not too little...just right. (No lost meat). Maybe that was as much due to the relatively low velocity (by rifle standards) as to the XTP design. Still, the bullets clearly expanced and clearly penetrated. I wouldn't ask for more of a handgun bullet.

I'm currently loading 300 gr. WFN/GC bullets from Beartooth Bullets. (Started loading these heavier bullets for black bear repellant on wilderness canoe trips). Haven't shot anything with them yet. These are rather stoutly loaded (H110) and they shoot very well in my revolvers. I'm due for a black bear license this year and I'll probably carry my 5.5" Redhawk as a back-up. Who knows? Maybe I'll lay aside the rifle to use the wheel gun.

I'll be curious to read others experiences.

For whitetail deer -- not sure it matters.

But for larger game -- highly recommend the heavy-for-caliber Keith-style or WFN cast bullets. All handgun calibers have a thread of doubt about their penetration so put the odds in your favor with non-expanding bullets.

Have taken elk with the 44. Most of my experience with handguns on larger game is in South Africa.

.

[quote=Hammer1]For whitetail deer -- not sure it matters.

But for larger game -- highly recommend the heavy-for-caliber Keith-style or WFN cast bullets. All handgun calibers have a thread of doubt about their penetration so put the odds in your favor with non-expanding bullets.

That makes alot of sense. Thanks

The only thing I have shot on purpose with a pistol is hogs. That is saying the only deer shot were targets of opportunity. I have never found a jacketed pistol bullet that works as well as a hard cast lead bullet. I know deer are different but on a hog you need and want all the penetration you can scrape together. Hogs are a lot more "solid" than deer.

BCR

I agree with Hammer on this one. For deer it does not really matter.

I have found few HP's that "open up" on a consistent basis as ranges increase/velocity decreases.

I make my own bullets from LBT WFN, LFN and WLN and Keith moulds in 357, 44, 45 and 45/70. I have shot a dozen deer and 3 hogs, most with a 45 Colt and 300 gr. bullets.

I have only shot two deer with "expanding" jacketed bullets, and they worked fine, but only one "off of the muzzle" showed expansion.

The nice thing about casting your own is its economical to actually practice with the loads you are hunting with and not re-zeroing your sights. The key to handgun, or any hunting, is a bullet in the right place. Practice is paramount.

Another point is that a cast bullet (it doesn't really have to be hard, WW alloy will go lengthwise through a deer) is that the results are always consistent. I have had one JSP actually lose the core on entrance, but of course killed the deer. Yes, there are great jacketed bullets out there, but as a luddite I favor simple, same, predictable results. A cast bullet through shoulders, front of lungs messes up any deer, but I am biased!

Ive used the hard cast bullets in the 270-320 grain weight range for years in my 44 mag and 445 mags WHY?
well when I first stared handgun hunting I used 240 grain jacketed bullets and most lost jackets after impact,they killed fine but shreaded,most deer fell or ran only a short distance, the first few deer killed with hard cast wide nose bullet designed dropped almost instantly, since then Ive had a few run short distances but I always get exit wounds and much more consistant results so I use hard cast almost excluesively, as they cost far less and do an excellent job.
almost any wide flat nose design in a 270-320 grain weight will do if its accurate in your revolver.
both jacketed or cast work, but hard cast bullets tend to cost much less and be more accurate in my revolvers and I don,t find jacket shreads in the meat, having a bullet that drive strait thru and exits consistantly from most angles is a big plus as far as Im concerned



N.E.I. handtools sells this mould


LEE sells this mould

I've shot perhaps a dozen deer total with handguns and been able to examine the results of handgun shots on about that many more.

My observations lead me to this:

1) For cartridges under .40 caliber, I want a jacketed bullet.

2) At .40 caliber, I think the potential is there for cast bullets, but I have not seen .40 cal cast bullet with a wide enough meplat yet, so I'll stick to jacketed bullets for now.

3) From .41 to .45, I like cast bullets better IF they are of a wide nose or fairly blunt SWC design. Some of the SWCs with a smaller, pointier nose do not work real well. A blunt SWC or one of the LBT-type designs kills just as fast as a jacketed bullet but without so much meat loss.

I haven't tried one of the above .45 cal cartridges yet.

Tom

Thanks for the replies fellas, very informative.

I've taken three deer with cast bullets while still hunting with iron-sighted 44 or 45 revolvers. Almost any bullet from these guns will kill a deer if it hits the vitals.

Where I hunt, most shots are within 30m. The deer are small, with a vital zone of about 6", so you don't need much power. I prefer a 250-grain cast flat-point at about 900 fps, but a 4" 38 loaded with wadcutters would probably work.

The deer are spooky and the brush is so thick that they can vanish in a step or two. Because of the trail systems, bed locations, vegetation and terrain, they see you before you see them. If they think they're hidden well enough, they'll sit there and let you pass. If not, they might stand up as they try to decide. In that case, you have 3-5 seconds to fire. If you don't have the gun in your hand when you see the deer, you have build your draw stroke into that time. To train for these conditions, I fire 1,000 rounds or more of my hunting load per season.

It's easy to work up extremely accurate loads with cast bullets, and accuracy gives me confidence. I don't need the expansion that jacketed bullets provide. The velocity that they need to expand brings with it recoil, noise and blast that I don't like, plus increased powder costs. Also, the flatter trajectory that higher velocity offers does me no good. And I sure can't afford to shoot as many of them as I need to be ready.

Cast bullets work well in my situation. If I were in a tree stand shooting a scoped revolver at big corn-fed Nebraska deer, I might use something else.


Okie John

I would agree to this too, even though I have never shot anything with a 40 or under, but you don't need a jacketed hollowpoint.

With a good flat nose mould and two pots, one for pure lead and one for heat-treat alloy, you can make an expanding softnose/hard shank bullet. I make these for a buddy of mine for his 357. If pushed fast they will expand easily down to 900 fps. They expand even lower from a hollowpoint mould I have in 357 (a REAL pain to make)!

The best results I have had personally with this method is from rifles, were I had a 250 358 penetrate as deep as a 338 250 NP Gold and an "old" lot of 338 250 Grand Slams in dry books. I have used them on hogs and report great results on two I have shot (exits and silver dollar holes)! Not that I don't like high speed and a quality bullet, but they work very well at little cost.

I did say I was biased?

I've shot close to 30 deer with my favorite hunting handgun since 1983. A Ruger SBH 7 1/2" .44mag. w/Leupy 2x. I've used the same in the "Hunter" model since it came out. Whitetails have fallen to jacketed bullets from 240gr. thru 300gr. and LBT type gas checks in 300gr.. In jacketed bullets I prefer XTP's and Golddots, with the 250gr. Nosler Partition reigning supreme. In hard cast gas checks I really like the Cast Performance and Beartooth heavies @ 300grs. and above.

To be honest, they will all kill deer, even the old JHC Sierra and Speers, but I like two holes.

Kennon

I have killed a few with the 44, first one with a 240gr JHP at 30yds punched a small hole clean thru. I switched to a 220gr JHP Killed the biggest doe of my life with that. She was about 45yds when the hammer dropped, she took one step and fell on her nose!
240gr was at about 1200fps, 220gr was at about 1350fps. two completely different wound channels. loved the results i got from that 220gr. bullet! Doe #2 weighed 180 lbs.

No experience here but here is my new wheelgun and the boolit I'm gonna try.

My SRH in 44magnum, 9.5" brl


the bullet I'm going to try on deer this fall. If they cooperate.

a 277gr 44 cal

I shot a deer in NC with my 629. I used 180 JHP handloads. Where we hunt, you're not allowed to discharge a rifle bigger than a .22 unless your feet are 10 feet off the ground. Deer hunting by treestand only! On the ground, I got tired of walking into deer on the way to my stand, taking a bathroom break... so I started carrying my 629. I expected the deer to be close so the HP's. I had a doe behind the tree I was in and it wouldn't walk around. I reached around the tree and shot it at 25 maybe yards. I saw the fur fly and the deer ran. I watched it go 100 yards maybe and then kind of lay down and conk out. Nice shoulder shot deer, I thought the .44 would blow the deer off it's feet. It ran. The bullet blew right through the little deer too. Dime sized hole going in, quarter sized going out. A lot of guys up here covet the little Ruger .44 carbines for deer and black bear hunting in Maine. I didn't see any spectacular result with the pistol. I wouldn't take it bear hunting as a primary gun without a lot more thought on bullet choice.

Blammer -

Nice rig. I bought one of those when they first came out and shot it for a year or two before the urge to have something else overwhelmed me. Definitely the most accurate revolver I ever owned. From memory, mine liked the 240 grain RXT (pre XTP hornady hollowpoint) over 25 grains of Win 296. Inch and a quarter or better for 6 shots at 100 yards over a rest. I had an old, huge Burris 2-7X on mine.

The only thing I didn't like was the grip. Before that guy, the GP100-type grips were slick, not sticky. That grip would stick to my skin which would tear under recoil. Took the fun right out of it.

Y' know what I really wish? I wish Ruger would put that target gray finish on the .44 magnum SRH and not just the .454 an .480 versions. Well, I really wish they'd offer that on a single action, too, and wish they'd offer a factory 5 shot .480 single action, and ... but there I go off on a tangent as usual. :-)

Tom

This last season I took two does with hard cast 44 caliber sabot bullets from my muzzle loader. The velocity should be similar to a revolver. The first one I hit in the lungs and had a long trail to follow. The second I hit through both shoulders and it crashed after one leap. I wouldn't use a hard cast through the lungs again.

I also opted for the 300gr. WFNHCGC'd Beartooth Bullet offering......and for the same reason.

Most any .44 Mag hunting bullet will get the job done on a deer, some perhaps a little quicker/better than others. I would also agree that by using the aforementioned bullet, if necessary, on "biters and clawers", I feel much more comfortable and confident in their potential terminal/stopping, power/effects (given proper placement....as per usual).

As to pushin' these pills with an ample dose of H110..........even better.

I guess the choice between cast and jacketed handgun bullets depends a lot on your individual circumstances, at least if you're talking home cast. For my part, I prefer cast bullets in big revolvers but tend to hunt more with JHP's, specifically the Hornady XTP in .44 240 grain and .41 210 grain. This bullet has given me outstanding results on a number of WT over the years. It is accurate expands a little, and penetrates through and through.

When I have time, I cast for my big revolvers but have pretty much given it up for auto pistols. When you look at the cost of pure lead and tin you don't save much if anything casting your own these days. If you scrounge lead you can use up a whole lot of time messing around to get good, consistent results. Add that to casting, lubing and QC time and (for me anyway) good home cast bullets cost more than jacketed.

The mass produced, bevel-based, super hard (high tin and antimony) cast bullets tend to be too hard to obturate in a revolver and will (unless you're very lucky) give you a lot of leading to deal with. IME they are best reserved for auto pistols. I'm aware that there are premium cast bullets out there for revolvers but expense-wise they are right up there with jacketed bullets.

If I were concerned with stopping charging grizzlies or cape buffalo with a handgun I might think differently, but I'm just a deer hunter. For that Hornady XTP's work best for me. YMMV

It's a different world now than it was when I started casting bullets in the mid-late 80s.

There were no handgun partitions, no X handgun bullets, no Swift bullets. There were no 300 grain jacketed .44 bullets. The .454 was still proprietary, not sure if the .475 and .500 linebaugh existed but if they did, they were strictly custom deals. No .460 S&W, no .500 S&W, .480 Ruger, etc.

Basically the biggest kid regularly found on the block was the .44 and the ammo choices were between (a) hard cast SWCs (the LBT type designs were just barely out and not known yet) or fairly fragile 240 grain JHPs. Pretty lean times for handgun hunting bullets.

I have one .44 that requires a home cast bullet .. unless someone is making a .433" bullet I don't know about. It's got an oversized bore and leads like crazy with standard .429 to .430 bullets.

Otherwise, if I were starting from scratch, I'm not sure I'd cast bullets. I'd probably use the 250 grain .44 partition and 260 grain .45 partition for my "heavy lifting" and buy commercial lead bullets for plinking.

Tom

I have used JHP and JSP, but I now prefer and use Hard Cast Flat point bullets as I believe that they offer the best alround bullet for game in the U.S.

LFN,WFN OR WLFN or my favorites

All I used for years hunting deer was a .44 magnum (Redhawk and Super Blackhawk)and occasionally a .454 Casull. Sometimes I used a 2x Leupold and sometimes irons. I would set up like I was bowhunting and have lost count of the number of deer taken but it was quite a few. I favored a heavy cast bullet in either LBT or Keith style and placed it on the shoulder. I did use XTPs a few times and placed them behind the shoulder. Both worked but Keith was correct when he said lead bullets could do it all in big handguns. There is really just not much need for jacketed bullets and for game larger or tougher than deer a heavy cast bullet is definitely the way to go. Incidently, it was my experience handgun hunting that convinced me the idea of a bullet killing by "dumping all it's energy" in an animal was pure bunk. The energy is low compared to most rifles but .45 cal. hard cast bullets tend to punch a .45 cal. hole all the way through whatever you shoot at leaving two holes to let blood out and air in and they kill right now. I tend to use a rifle more often now simply because I am less inclined to spend much time sitting in a tree. Western hunting did that. Spotting and stalking is much more fun and even when Whitetail hunting in the east I now tend to move much more than I once did and a 30-30 rifle usually seems better for that.

JBD-it was my experience handgun hunting that convinced me the idea of a bullet killing by "dumping all it's energy" in an animal was pure bunk


Careful! them's fighten words! LOL

Thirteen years gone by since this thread was started. The topic is interesting to me. I'm hoping some of you with experience will comment.

When/why choose a jacketed bullet such as XTP over cast for .44mag handgun hunting, particularly deer?

Jacketed handgun bullets have come a long way , the best compromise between the 2 types are the swift A frames, they open up but hold together and penetrate like a solid . When I hunted with my 357 it was 180 grain hardcast and I would aim for the shoulders and it worked well. Now with my 44 I wasn’t impressed with the 240 grain xtp on deer. I’ve moved on to the 270 grain deep curls and I’ve got some 280 grain A frames to also try out. A solid will perform and penetrate no doubt, but a quality heavy for caliber jacketed bullet may perform a bit better.

My only input on this topic is that heavy cast, wide metplat, bullets provide reliable, time proven performance at handgun velocities. Today’s jacketed bullets, while much improved over the years, still leave you with that nagging question.....is this the time it will fail to perform as expected! Any bullet can fail to perform as desired.....but, I’ll stay with the bullet that offers the highest success percentage in expected performance!

Something else to consider, jacketed handgun bullets work best within a fairly narrow velocity window. Cast bullet performance is the same from the muzzle to the range at which it can no longer penetrate to the vitals! memtb

Hard cast for me in 44 mag; one hole in and out every time. I love Oregon Trail 310 gr Trueshot bullets over 18.5 grains of W296 & magnum primer, at about 1200fps. With an accurate revolver it will print cloverleafs all day at 25 yards. This load has never let me down, and will take down any critter on the planet with proper shot placement. Recoil is not excessive, unlike Garrett and Buffalo Bore +P+ loads. (This load is not recommended for S&W, Taurus, and such like.) Will not function in Henry lever actions, but fine for ‘92 types, Ruger 77’s & is a tack driver in any single shot

I have used cast flat nosed bullets out of several rifles and handguns. For deer I prefer a jacketed soft nose bullet. Heavy enough to go through. For hogs cast is fine because I don't care if they get away. I just didn't get very quick kills using the WFN cast bullets on deer. Others must have had better results than I did. Not saying I didn't get exit holes just saying some deer went pretty far after being well hit with flat nosed cast bullets.

.44 Mag rifle-300 grain WFN GC.

.44 Mag pistol, either the 300 grain WFN GC or a 300 grain LMN DCG, which can provide some additional performance.

In my .45-70, the Beartooth Bullets Piledriver Jr (425 grain WLN GC), and the .458 SOCOM is loaded with Piledriver Lites (350 grain WLN GC). Getting ready to try some 405 WLN GC in the SOCOM.

.45 Super and .460 Rowland are using LBT 250 grain LFN GC.

I likes hardcast lead in the 40+ bores.

Shots on deer have been typical with lung shots, a bronco buck and about a 40 yard death dash.

Was the "new thread" button too hard for you to use?

I think I remember this thread when it first came out

Just ordered a 500-box of Missouri Bullet Company's coated hard cast for my new (to me) 44 Spcl Bisley Blackhawk. Looking forward to it.

Never understood HC, seen too many critters just get punched, no collateral damage whatsoever, walk/run off like nothing happened. Pass the jhp or jsp...

Mostly all the bullets I use are cast swc's. With big lead bullets out of 45-50 cal bp cartridge rifles I find that they are very effective as long as you remember to get them thru the vitals. At handgun velocity breaking bones on the way out is important for quicker kills.

longarm, I'm glad you responded to this thread. I was with High Brass when he shot the doe. It brings back a great memory. BTW, Chad thought he had missed since the doe ran. I told him he had hit her because she kicked both hind legs up in the air and then took off.

i have shot dozens of russian boar, red stag, feral hogs and whitetail with my 44 mag using XTP's. I modify my XTP's for whitetail and the occasional feral hog.
The unmodified version of the XTP dropped the majority of stags and russian boar in their track. Tougher hide, bigger animals than the typical feral hog and whitetail.
After shooting close to a dozen white tails I was concerned with how much more they ran than the stags. Pass throughs yes, and good blood trails too. But in thick brush this had me concerned. So i took a 1/8" drill and opened the hollow point and drilled it a little deeper. Bullets end up at same POI as unmodified ones, and weigh 231 grains.
I have yet to have a whitetail run with these. More energy is dumped inside the animal and in all but a quartering away follow up shot that one buck let me have (he was dead on his feet but turned after the first shot) the bullets exited. This second shot is the only recovered bullet I have from a Whitetail.

Don't get me wrong, 240 gr as they come out of the box lets them usually have a 30-50 yard run, but i like them to fall over in place. if i do my part, they will.

I shoot a 7.5" 629 and a 6.5" 629 at 1300 fps.
SnT

Use three basic hunting bullets for the .357 Mag, both 6.5" revolver and 18.5" carbine.

158 gr. semi-jacketed soft point in the Federal Factory AE load.
140 gr. Barnes XPB in VOR-TEX factory of handload.
180 gr. Hornady XTP in thermonuclear handloads.

All work.

Some work better.




GR

THIS.

I've a few whitetails IE around 25 or so. Probably close to 50 pigs. With handguns that is.

I've found that I've never lost a pig shot in the lungs with a 22 LR CCI Mini Mag HP round.

Deer have been shot with 357, 44 mag, 45 acp and 10mm. I never liked how they killed until the 10mm.

Hands down its rare to have a deer go more than 25-30 yards with a 180 XTP through them. So much that for on purpose hunting I have started to convert all handgun rounds to XTP.

That said bear/moose defense loads still get heavy hard cast bullets driven at a speed that I can control recoil for follow up shots.

Having used hard cast lead WFN type bullets along the way on deer a couple of times I simply didn't see anything the XTP didn't do better.