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I've no experience "stopping" charging grizzlies, but I have had to stop a couple of blacks in hair-raising circumstances. I've been bluff-charged by grizzlies - but was able to wait them out -without shooting. My Dad, on the other hand, had extensive grizzly experience - killing "about 20" in his day. I was the recipient of many great stories from him on those experiences, and witnessed two of them. So, with that caveat, I'll proceed.

For the most part, my thoughts are pretty much a compilation of the prevailing trends on this thread so far, but with a few twists.

In a perfect "charge" scenario, one central nervous system hit and you'll have a very dead bear, very quickly. One big (7ft black) found that out - and I was only shooting a 100 grain X out of a 25-06 at a range measured in feet, not yards. I know the same thing would have happened with a 9 foot grizzly too. Not the slightest doubt in my mind.

I'd even go so far as to bet the same result would have happened with a 53 grain Barnes X out of my .22 CHeetah too. But as we all know "perfect" CNS hits aren't going to happen every time, hence we need to think about other cartridges.

In less than perfect circumstances (non-CNS hits) it's going to be all about making holes in the animals anatomy. The bigger around the hole is, and the deeper it is - the better. But, and this is a very big "but" - many of the guns that perforate bigger holes in the hide and punch deeper into the bear, kick so much, that people are scared of them, flinch, shoot poorly and even if they do shoot them well - it does take more precious seconds to settle the rifle down, after the recoil of the really big cartridges, for when those oft-needed subsequent shoots might need to be taken. Oftentimes, these really large caliber rifles are also too heavy to be really fast swingers even before they are fired, too.

So for me, it's all about being light enough to carry and swing that you won't be fatigued from packing it, and it'll be light enough to swing quickly - hence to my way of thinking - it won't be a typical .375 H&H weight rifle, and is less likely to be ideal if it's a larger caliber. So, I don't think that bigger is necessarily better. If you've got a guide backing you - go as big as you want to. If you are on your own - think fast and portable.

Because a lot of things can, and often will, go wrong with an angry bear deciding it wants to lay a hurt on a lone man (not with a guide at his side) - having a rifle with more rounds of capacity is aways better. Having a rifle with one cartridge in the chamber and with five more in the magazine is a great reassurance and potentially very useful. Remember - things are very different without a guide at your side.

In this comparison - the 9.3X62 would have it all over the .338 as the "perfect" rifle for this scenario.

It kicks less. It penetrates at least as well. It makes a bigger-around hole. It is available in lighter, more compact rifles. It doesn't loose as much when fired from a short barrel. It carries two extra rounds in the magazine.

I'm sure my Dad would have loved it - that is, if the 30-06 Remington 760 Pump that he eventually settled on, as his own "perfect grizzly rifle" - hadn't been available. With that rifle and his all-steel tip-off Weaver 2 power scope - he thought he was as perfectly armed as possible - for close encounters in the alders with old Ursus Horribilis.

The majority of his grizzlies fell to that rifle shooting 220 grain round nose bullets. He couldn't figure out why anyone would want anything bigger or more potent. He thought, more powder and more bullet than he used, only increased the chances of missing. My dad thought that "elephant guns" (as he called the bigger magnums) were too heavy and too slow to be "perfect" for killing grizzlies in the thick stuff.

"You can't kill them deader than dead" he'd often add with a wink and a smile. Sometimes he'd add - "How much more penetration than "total penetration" - do you need?"

My Dad knew a lot about killing grizzlies.


Brian

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Well, it seems as if he who often cautions against anyone even mentioning THEIR families accomplishments does not follow his own advice or attitude, a common situation among liberals.

Now, the ORIGINAL poster asked a simple question and it WAS NOT what WOULD kill Grizzlies, or what someone's old Dad did whenever, BUT, WHICH of TWO specific cartridges WOULD be superior in a given scenario, the .338WM or the 9.3x62. IF, one has NOT HAD experience with these, it is hard to decide this question and ALL other considerations are irrelevant.

I have owned, loaded for and shot a total of 16 different rifles in these two chamberings since 1968, I KNOW what they will/will not do and base my opinions on a considerable amount of actual Grizzly experience, NOT on what someon else did/did not do.

Anyone who thinks that the .30-06, with ANY load is the equal of the loads I refer to here needs serious help. The magazine capacity is a function of the RIFLE and this CAN be altered quite easily, as I always do with rifles for working in Grizzly country.

In 21 years of shooting 9.3 rifles, 25 years of shooting .375H&H rifles and 40 years of shooting .338WM rifles, I have felt NO difference in recoil between 9.3s and .338s and damm little with a decently stocked .375 H&H, although there IS some.

Puzzymen who can't handle a real rifle should play golf or tennis or whatever, these rounds are NOT hard to learn to shoot and they DO a much better job than any smaller ones will. A chopped .458WM IS, no question, a specialist's tool, however, after decades of serious rifle shooting and wilderness work, not weekend play, I CAN handle it and it DOES a better job, much like a .338WM or 9.3 over the .30-06.

If, you have the right carrying rig, a heavier .375H&H or .458WM or .416 is NOT hard to pack, simply read the backpacking forum here to learn how from guys who do it. If, you are a "quadjockey", it doesn't matter about an extra lb. of rifle weight.

Again, this is NOT simply about killing, it is about STOPPING and Black Bears are largely irrelevant, I have chased lots of them off from my bush cabins with rocks and shouts, I would NEVER do that with a Grizzly. I would bet that I knew as many or more REAL oldtimers, guys who started pro bushwhacking before WWI as anyone on this MB, and ALL of them tended to use the biggest gun that they could when Grizzlies were around.

Yes, Grizzlies have and will be dropped with the ubiquitous .30-06 and it is beloved of those who like to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator, BUT, we don't drive Model As or use wooden skis or "iceboxes" anymore, there ARE better choices and the two rounds in question are among them.

Harumpphhh!

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How many grizzlies have you actually hunted and KILLED Kutenay? How many have you shot in self-defence?

I mean, there's the abstract "grizzly experience" that could mean being simply being around, being in close proximity to, working in grizzly country, being surrounded by them, having many grizzly encounters, being bluff charged, being "in on the kill" etc. etc. etc. - and then there's the actual hunting, tracking and eventual of shooting the these bears - on ones's own - without a guide.

My Dad's experiences were the latter.

The people who have actually tracked, hunted, turned down many for every one he ended up shooting, and then actually killed quite a lot of them. To my way of thinking, are really the ones that really should be listened to. When a man did it the way my Dad did, usually alone, never with a guide (even compared to being an actual guide - with a client or two - all armed and loaded to the hilt, at the guide's side) is the kind of experience that really is of the type that ought not be discounted, and in fact should actually be listened to.

To my mind - those two differing scenarios are really quite different.

I'm curous, as to how many grizzly bears you've actually hunted and shot - yourself.

You see, my Dad was actually a "grizzly hunter".

Never diminish a man's father's accomplishments - unless you want him to fire back. wink

Hrmmph....back at ya


Brian

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I have been right there at the death of about a dozen different Grizzlies in my lifetime, have never killed one myself as I had no wish to during my working years, but, am considering it now.

I have tracked probably 100 over the years, encountered over 60, usually alone and have "free-guided" several hunters, friends of mine, to them, over the years.

I have been within 10 yards of three Grizzlies, twice alone, once armed and once unarmed and once with two guys from out of Province, armed.

In my five+ decades of bush experience, Grizzlies were a fairly common situation to deal with and I COULD easily have shot over 20 of them, legally; but, I am a serious, lifelong environmentalist, not a trendy type and thus, due to the declining habitat and population levels, until recently, have not done so.

As to being a ...serious...BC bushman, pal, I think that I certainly qualify in this respect. I started working alone, far from help, less than a week after my 21st birthday in the Flathead wilderness and have spent actual years of periods consisting of 3 month stints solo, all over BC since that season in '67.

It seems as though you can hand out the comments about not taking credit for one's family's accomplishments (Canada forum?) pretty damm well, BUT, you constantly base your opinions on Grizzlies, calibers, etc., on what your DAD did and I thought that may be it might be time to point this out.

If, YOU can always use your dad's experiences as a point of reference, without anyone commenting, well, why can't I, or, anyone else refer to their forbearers accomplishments? I am not into denigrating him, but, there is no essential difference between my familial-historical references and your using your dad's Grizzly kills as a point of reference, is there?

So, don't think that I am attacking him, or, even you; I simply thought that "turnabout is fair play". Anyhow, the .30-06 is NOT the equal of these other cartridges.

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Canucks are funny


"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Canucks are COOL, we have the BEST beer, the most gorgeous babes and the biggest per capita, least polluted and most resource rich country on Earth. We are the best soldiers, hockey players, barroom brawlers, loggers, fishers, railroaders and general real men there is or is that are?

Our LIBERALS can whip anybody else and we also smell nice, just like Maple Syrup, Cedar shavings and roasting Moose meat!

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All that, and modest, too.....

Or, is that just delusional? wink




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and you don't even need propane to get a HOT air ballon off the ground.........


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No, but we have probably the largest petro resources on Earth AND we share with you guys so the camelhumpers can GFTS's.!

Hey, a YANK talks about being modest?????? Really? smile

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Canada is so cute.


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I ain't no damnyankee. I'm Southern.

Must be the cold up there.... snowblindness and all.....




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Originally Posted by Kutenay

have never killed one myself


So the answer is none then?

Originally Posted by Kutenay


In my five+ decades of bush experience,



You've certainly had an awful lot of jobs that one would think would have to be based out of a city of some description...Book Store clerk, shoe salesman, outdoor retail salesman, etc....To have spent the last 50 years in the bush as you purport.

Originally Posted by Kutenay


As to being a ...serious...BC bushman, pal, I think that I certainly qualify in this respect.


See above.

Originally Posted by Kutenay


It seems as though you can hand out the comments about not taking credit for one's family's accomplishments (Canada forum?) pretty damm well, BUT, you constantly base your opinions on Grizzlies, calibers, etc., on what your DAD did and I thought that may be it might be time to point this out.



Might be time to point out that there is a far cry from being beside someone or around someone who actually accomplished things, as opposed to having tales of accomplishments from anywhere from many decades to HUNDREDS of years ago...

Originally Posted by Kutenay


so don't think I'm attacking him, or, even you



Isn't that exactly what you are doing?


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Why pack all that messy meat out of the bush when we can just go to the grocery store where meat is made? Hell,if they sold antlers I would save so much money I could afford to go Dolphin fishing. Maybe even a baby seal safari.
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Originally Posted by VAnimrod
I ain't no damnyankee. I'm Southern.

Must be the cold up there.... snowblindness and all.....


Yeah, I should have realized that, hell of a thing, eh, to call a "blueblooded southern gentleman" a ...Yank..., my abject apologies, must be that dammed Easter Bunny, again, eh?

It IS snowing hard on the mountains around Vancouver at present, kind of neat, you can go jogging along the ocean front in shorts and singlet OR go snowshoeing/sking on 10-12 ft. of snow within a half hour's drive. Not many places like this, as long as we keep it the way it is supposed to be, wildlife, wilderness parks, clean lakes, fish and a decent society, mostly, with some social vermin, but, what state/province/city doesn't have some of those, eh?

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if you were up close and personal with a big brown bear?


Easy decision-- 9.3x62


Last edited by CRS; 03/23/08.

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Neither... were I wanting a medium I'd do a 375 Ruger.


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Originally Posted by Brad
Neither... were I wanting a medium I'd do a 375 Ruger.



Starting from scratch so would I........perhaps we still should there Mac?

It's be one heck of a yote rig.... smile

Dober


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Neither... were I wanting a medium I'd do a 375 Ruger.


yep, or a 416, 423, 429, 458, 470 etc.

I think we can all agree that if it's hitting the fan, bigger is better.


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i have only faced a griz and her cub once on a narrow trail to clear cut.My friend had a 308 win and i had a 7Rem Mag, this was 19 yrs ago. We were 40-50ft from them when they popped out of the brush, i whispered head shots only as the scope was full of the sow bears head. we waited them out and after some chomping licking the air and standing on tippy toes they went their way. The next season we had 338 winchesters with 250gr bullets and feeling a little better when walking. After thinking about it, i do not rush down a trail at dusk anymore, I leave time to walk slowly and observe my surroundings on the way to the hunting spot. Short , light, big bore, scoped down to 1.5 or 2x, slick functioning rifle is what will see you through these encounters, plus learning not to shoot unless absolutely neccessary as all hell breaks loose when you pull that trigger. A 35 whelen is good for this activity as are the various 9.3's. 375 HH generally need to be modified to foefill this function. Whn on the ground i like a good medium , when traveling from place to place a 3006 is good as well as for November deer hunting as the bears have gone to sleep. Your experience may vary.

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I saw a bear in northern Wisconsin once so I'm intitled to an opinion. I pick 9.3X62 because that is what I own.

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