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#2104766 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: BCBrian]  
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kutenay Offline
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Well, it seems as if he who often cautions against anyone even mentioning THEIR families accomplishments does not follow his own advice or attitude, a common situation among liberals.

Now, the ORIGINAL poster asked a simple question and it WAS NOT what WOULD kill Grizzlies, or what someone's old Dad did whenever, BUT, WHICH of TWO specific cartridges WOULD be superior in a given scenario, the .338WM or the 9.3x62. IF, one has NOT HAD experience with these, it is hard to decide this question and ALL other considerations are irrelevant.

I have owned, loaded for and shot a total of 16 different rifles in these two chamberings since 1968, I KNOW what they will/will not do and base my opinions on a considerable amount of actual Grizzly experience, NOT on what someon else did/did not do.

Anyone who thinks that the .30-06, with ANY load is the equal of the loads I refer to here needs serious help. The magazine capacity is a function of the RIFLE and this CAN be altered quite easily, as I always do with rifles for working in Grizzly country.

In 21 years of shooting 9.3 rifles, 25 years of shooting .375H&H rifles and 40 years of shooting .338WM rifles, I have felt NO difference in recoil between 9.3s and .338s and damm little with a decently stocked .375 H&H, although there IS some.

Puzzymen who can't handle a real rifle should play golf or tennis or whatever, these rounds are NOT hard to learn to shoot and they DO a much better job than any smaller ones will. A chopped .458WM IS, no question, a specialist's tool, however, after decades of serious rifle shooting and wilderness work, not weekend play, I CAN handle it and it DOES a better job, much like a .338WM or 9.3 over the .30-06.

If, you have the right carrying rig, a heavier .375H&H or .458WM or .416 is NOT hard to pack, simply read the backpacking forum here to learn how from guys who do it. If, you are a "quadjockey", it doesn't matter about an extra lb. of rifle weight.

Again, this is NOT simply about killing, it is about STOPPING and Black Bears are largely irrelevant, I have chased lots of them off from my bush cabins with rocks and shouts, I would NEVER do that with a Grizzly. I would bet that I knew as many or more REAL oldtimers, guys who started pro bushwhacking before WWI as anyone on this MB, and ALL of them tended to use the biggest gun that they could when Grizzlies were around.

Yes, Grizzlies have and will be dropped with the ubiquitous .30-06 and it is beloved of those who like to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator, BUT, we don't drive Model As or use wooden skis or "iceboxes" anymore, there ARE better choices and the two rounds in question are among them.

Harumpphhh!

CMG 300 BP

#2104782 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: kutenay]  
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BCBrian Offline
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How many grizzlies have you actually hunted and KILLED Kutenay? How many have you shot in self-defence?

I mean, there's the abstract "grizzly experience" that could mean being simply being around, being in close proximity to, working in grizzly country, being surrounded by them, having many grizzly encounters, being bluff charged, being "in on the kill" etc. etc. etc. - and then there's the actual hunting, tracking and eventual of shooting the these bears - on ones's own - without a guide.

My Dad's experiences were the latter.

The people who have actually tracked, hunted, turned down many for every one he ended up shooting, and then actually killed quite a lot of them. To my way of thinking, are really the ones that really should be listened to. When a man did it the way my Dad did, usually alone, never with a guide (even compared to being an actual guide - with a client or two - all armed and loaded to the hilt, at the guide's side) is the kind of experience that really is of the type that ought not be discounted, and in fact should actually be listened to.

To my mind - those two differing scenarios are really quite different.

I'm curous, as to how many grizzly bears you've actually hunted and shot - yourself.

You see, my Dad was actually a "grizzly hunter".

Never diminish a man's father's accomplishments - unless you want him to fire back. wink

Hrmmph....back at ya


Brian

Vernon BC Canada

"Nothing in life - can compare to seeing smiles on your children's faces."
#2104838 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: BCBrian]  
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kutenay Offline
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I have been right there at the death of about a dozen different Grizzlies in my lifetime, have never killed one myself as I had no wish to during my working years, but, am considering it now.

I have tracked probably 100 over the years, encountered over 60, usually alone and have "free-guided" several hunters, friends of mine, to them, over the years.

I have been within 10 yards of three Grizzlies, twice alone, once armed and once unarmed and once with two guys from out of Province, armed.

In my five+ decades of bush experience, Grizzlies were a fairly common situation to deal with and I COULD easily have shot over 20 of them, legally; but, I am a serious, lifelong environmentalist, not a trendy type and thus, due to the declining habitat and population levels, until recently, have not done so.

As to being a ...serious...BC bushman, pal, I think that I certainly qualify in this respect. I started working alone, far from help, less than a week after my 21st birthday in the Flathead wilderness and have spent actual years of periods consisting of 3 month stints solo, all over BC since that season in '67.

It seems as though you can hand out the comments about not taking credit for one's family's accomplishments (Canada forum?) pretty damm well, BUT, you constantly base your opinions on Grizzlies, calibers, etc., on what your DAD did and I thought that may be it might be time to point this out.

If, YOU can always use your dad's experiences as a point of reference, without anyone commenting, well, why can't I, or, anyone else refer to their forbearers accomplishments? I am not into denigrating him, but, there is no essential difference between my familial-historical references and your using your dad's Grizzly kills as a point of reference, is there?

So, don't think that I am attacking him, or, even you; I simply thought that "turnabout is fair play". Anyhow, the .30-06 is NOT the equal of these other cartridges.

#2104843 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: kutenay]  
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Steelhead Offline
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Canucks are funny


"When I was a kid I thought that quicksand was going to be a much bigger problem than it is."
#2104859 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: Steelhead]  
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kutenay Offline
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Canucks are COOL, we have the BEST beer, the most gorgeous babes and the biggest per capita, least polluted and most resource rich country on Earth. We are the best soldiers, hockey players, barroom brawlers, loggers, fishers, railroaders and general real men there is or is that are?

Our LIBERALS can whip anybody else and we also smell nice, just like Maple Syrup, Cedar shavings and roasting Moose meat!

Alpha

#2104867 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: kutenay]  
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VAnimrod Offline
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All that, and modest, too.....

Or, is that just delusional? wink




#2104868 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: kutenay]  
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Steelhead Offline
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and you don't even need propane to get a HOT air ballon off the ground.........


"When I was a kid I thought that quicksand was going to be a much bigger problem than it is."
#2104887 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: Steelhead]  
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kutenay Offline
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No, but we have probably the largest petro resources on Earth AND we share with you guys so the camelhumpers can GFTS's.!

Hey, a YANK talks about being modest?????? Really? smile

#2104891 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: kutenay]  
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Steelhead Offline
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Canada is so cute.


"When I was a kid I thought that quicksand was going to be a much bigger problem than it is."
#2104897 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: Steelhead]  
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VAnimrod Offline
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I ain't no damnyankee. I'm Southern.

Must be the cold up there.... snowblindness and all.....




Bravo

#2105029 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: kutenay]  
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KodiakHntr Offline
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Northern BC



Originally Posted by Kutenay

have never killed one myself


So the answer is none then?

Originally Posted by Kutenay


In my five+ decades of bush experience,



You've certainly had an awful lot of jobs that one would think would have to be based out of a city of some description...Book Store clerk, shoe salesman, outdoor retail salesman, etc....To have spent the last 50 years in the bush as you purport.

Originally Posted by Kutenay


As to being a ...serious...BC bushman, pal, I think that I certainly qualify in this respect.


See above.

Originally Posted by Kutenay


It seems as though you can hand out the comments about not taking credit for one's family's accomplishments (Canada forum?) pretty damm well, BUT, you constantly base your opinions on Grizzlies, calibers, etc., on what your DAD did and I thought that may be it might be time to point this out.



Might be time to point out that there is a far cry from being beside someone or around someone who actually accomplished things, as opposed to having tales of accomplishments from anywhere from many decades to HUNDREDS of years ago...

Originally Posted by Kutenay


so don't think I'm attacking him, or, even you



Isn't that exactly what you are doing?


Originally Posted by Someone
Why pack all that messy meat out of the bush when we can just go to the grocery store where meat is made? Hell,if they sold antlers I would save so much money I could afford to go Dolphin fishing. Maybe even a baby seal safari.
#2105051 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: VAnimrod]  
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kutenay Offline
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Originally Posted by VAnimrod
I ain't no damnyankee. I'm Southern.

Must be the cold up there.... snowblindness and all.....


Yeah, I should have realized that, hell of a thing, eh, to call a "blueblooded southern gentleman" a ...Yank..., my abject apologies, must be that dammed Easter Bunny, again, eh?

It IS snowing hard on the mountains around Vancouver at present, kind of neat, you can go jogging along the ocean front in shorts and singlet OR go snowshoeing/sking on 10-12 ft. of snow within a half hour's drive. Not many places like this, as long as we keep it the way it is supposed to be, wildlife, wilderness parks, clean lakes, fish and a decent society, mostly, with some social vermin, but, what state/province/city doesn't have some of those, eh?

#2105074 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: kutenay]  
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Mississippi Offline
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338

#2105095 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: Mississippi]  
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CRS Offline
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Quote
if you were up close and personal with a big brown bear?


Easy decision-- 9.3x62


Last edited by CRS; 03/23/08.

Arcus Venator
#2105118 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: CRS]  
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Brad Offline
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Neither... were I wanting a medium I'd do a 375 Ruger.


Cartridges are more alike than different.
If Montana had an army the 270 Win would be standard issue.
The 308 Win; it kicks a little and kills a lot.
#2105130 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: Brad]  
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Mark R Dobrenski Offline
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Originally Posted by Brad
Neither... were I wanting a medium I'd do a 375 Ruger.



Starting from scratch so would I........perhaps we still should there Mac?

It's be one heck of a yote rig.... smile

Dober


"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
#2105134 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: Brad]  
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CRS Offline
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Neither... were I wanting a medium I'd do a 375 Ruger.


yep, or a 416, 423, 429, 458, 470 etc.

I think we can all agree that if it's hitting the fan, bigger is better.


Arcus Venator
#2105173 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: Brad]  
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zxc Offline
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i have only faced a griz and her cub once on a narrow trail to clear cut.My friend had a 308 win and i had a 7Rem Mag, this was 19 yrs ago. We were 40-50ft from them when they popped out of the brush, i whispered head shots only as the scope was full of the sow bears head. we waited them out and after some chomping licking the air and standing on tippy toes they went their way. The next season we had 338 winchesters with 250gr bullets and feeling a little better when walking. After thinking about it, i do not rush down a trail at dusk anymore, I leave time to walk slowly and observe my surroundings on the way to the hunting spot. Short , light, big bore, scoped down to 1.5 or 2x, slick functioning rifle is what will see you through these encounters, plus learning not to shoot unless absolutely neccessary as all hell breaks loose when you pull that trigger. A 35 whelen is good for this activity as are the various 9.3's. 375 HH generally need to be modified to foefill this function. Whn on the ground i like a good medium , when traveling from place to place a 3006 is good as well as for November deer hunting as the bears have gone to sleep. Your experience may vary.

#2105226 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: zxc]  
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I saw a bear in northern Wisconsin once so I'm intitled to an opinion. I pick 9.3X62 because that is what I own.

#2105299 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: kutenay]  
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BCBrian Offline
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I did say - once - that the accomplishments of my Dad, my relatives and my ancestors was not a source of "pride" for me. I was merely pointing out, that to my way of thinking, "pride" comes out of one's own accomplishments.

I metioned my Dad's EXPERIENCE not as a source of pride - but as the voice of someone who's actual experience in regards to killing grizzlies, usually alone, and without a guide - bore listening to. My Dad did use calibers beyond 40 for grizzlies - but eventually settled on the 30-06, and the pump-action, as being "perfect" - for him.

I wanted to point out also that killing grizzlies is different from being around a lot of them. Heck, if being around game animals is what counts - my experiences with Whitetail deer, within 100 yards of my house, daily, probably trumps the Benoit family's experiences! I chase many of them away from my wife's roses and the cedar hedge every day. Sometimes in numbers that exceed 20 at a time.

But, I think you can see and appreciate the difference between doing that every day - and hunting them the way the Benoit family does. When it comes to hunting them - if the Benoits are talking - I'm listening!

It was that experiential knowledge about killing grizzlies that my Dad had, at length, and that's the reason I mentioned it. Not to brag about it - or as a source of my own pride - but rather as noting the experience of one who should be listened to.

The fact he regarded a short, light 30-06 pump as being his favorite - is, in my opinion, not to be discounted.

Now that he's gone, if I ever do shoot a big grizzly - since I can't have my Dad at my side - I can't think of many people I'd rather have at my side than you, Kutenay.



Brian

Vernon BC Canada

"Nothing in life - can compare to seeing smiles on your children's faces."
#2105303 - 03/23/08 Re: 9.3X62 or 338 Win. Mag: Which would you rather have in your hands..... [Re: zxc]  
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kutenay Offline
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Originally Posted by Furprick
i have only faced a griz and her cub once on a narrow trail to clear cut.My friend had a 308 win and i had a 7Rem Mag, this was 19 yrs ago. We were 40-50ft from them when they popped out of the brush, i whispered head shots only as the scope was full of the sow bears head. we waited them out and after some chomping licking the air and standing on tippy toes they went their way. The next season we had 338 winchesters with 250gr bullets and feeling a little better when walking. After thinking about it, i do not rush down a trail at dusk anymore, I leave time to walk slowly and observe my surroundings on the way to the hunting spot. Short , light, big bore, scoped down to 1.5 or 2x, slick functioning rifle is what will see you through these encounters, plus learning not to shoot unless absolutely neccessary as all hell breaks loose when you pull that trigger. A 35 whelen is good for this activity as are the various 9.3's. 375 HH generally need to be modified to foefill this function. Whn on the ground i like a good medium , when traveling from place to place a 3006 is good as well as for November deer hunting as the bears have gone to sleep. Your experience may vary.


Good post,FP!

That is exactly what I had when I had a guy from California and one from the Prairies hunting Elk near White Swan in 1979. A really gorgeous Grizzly came up to within 10 yds. of us, their rifles were in the Suburban and I had my Ruger 77-7mmMag. with 4x Leupy shooting 175 WW PPs in my hands.

These two gents were solid but neither had ever seen a Grizz before, especially that close and the Yank had worked in Yellowstone quite a bit, while the other chap had only hunted deer. The besr was just curious and very calm, but, still, it does tend to make you kinda AWARE, you might say....I never went elk hungting again without one of my .338s and still don't.

Last season, we were in the Chilcotin, about 20K into South Chil. Park., packed in by one of the worst losers I have ever met and there were fresh tracks every morning, all week, at the waterhole about 200 yds. from our camp. I had a matched pair of P-64 .338s and my buddy had his custom ZG-47-9.3sx64 in carefully selected spots at the camp and all was cool.

So, I agree with you, FP, I do exactly what you do and I am quite confident in the .338, 9.3 or .375, any of these will work. It CAN be hard not to just shoot and kill the bear, but, that's not what I consider acceptable, just like killing game and leaving the meat to rot.

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