Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Modern in-line capabilitys....

See "link" below and decide for yoreself,.... if this is "hype" or "fact"!!

http://www.chuckhawks.com/long_range_muzzleloading.htm

I'll try to say this two ways,

1st:; If all the axium of perfect condition's where in place for each and every individual as they conduct their shooting,, then application of their shooting to field condition's as professional shooter's/writers expound,aka;free access to guided- private land! for their sustanance,aka;money/food/car-payment. Then I would say that it is,,hype and fact, combined!,,I gotta give'm credit this year though, he never put that last paragraph dis-claimer in before.

2nd. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Bbwwaaagggg!!! Ggaffaww! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> heeheeheeeee <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />,kid's <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> gotta love'm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />..I'll bet feller's like that cain't wipe their butt what for the "corpreate" sponsor don't tell'm right or left <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What's sad is for all them folk's that don't got an extra 3k,ta practice on,then hunt, will just spend 800$ an go bang!bang! in the wood's,,_- cause some "writer/Pro said so <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />: same story,same dance,, I'd like to see Randy Wakeman post something about picking up trash,or caring for our public lands,or teaching kids and sharing,passing on the sport.,,nun of that though is there,,it's all about buy this now because it's the best!

I use prb's 250 QT spitzers in my .45 and I will shoot to perhaps 225 yards with my stainless,scoped, pellet shooting in line. Of course I'll shoot to 175 yards very comfortably with my open sited sidelock .45 with 495 grain bullets as well so thats only 50 yard difference. If you notice all the talk is about bullets and high B.C. Could make a flintlock that had rifling for saboted bullets and it would be able to shoot them ranges as well. You can put scopes on flintlock, right?

FVA,.... Well,.. flintlocks DON'T have fast-twist barrels or wear scopes, and frogs DON'T fly,... so let's stay "on topic" if we possibly can.

Accord'n to Wakeman, yore in-line ain't shoot'n,.. "up to it's full potential", if yore's is max'n out at 225 yards. "Wakeman" states thet you can very easyly git anuther 75 yards out of yore 225 yard in-line (... and, "who knows",.. maybe even anuther 125 yards out of yore 175 yard side-lock), if you use the "right" components for a load.

A Canadian "in-line" poster states:... <"I know exactly where that bullet is at any range and I see no reason why I can't shoot out to 400 yards if I want to.">

After read'n "thet",.... the "capabilitys" of the in-line have increased by, ANUTHER 100 yards for a grand total of,..... "400 yards"!!!!

All the above,.... is stated with a "straight face" and as "FACT",..... by "in-line shooters"!!

It's hype - well, sort of.

If you break it down, the parts are - by themselves, factual - but the overall premise of a 300 yard *hunting* muzzleloader for Joe Average is a far stretch. It's easy for "Joe" to overlook the fact that for such feats, one must be intimately familiar with one's trajectory AND THE RANGE OF THE TARGET.

All this stuff is easy enough to repeat on a firing range (long-range target shooters do it all the time), but in field conditions, above average knowledge, skill, and patience are required. Of course - one could be helped by the use of an electronic range finder. But remember - even Mr. Epp admits to field accuracy of THREE TIMES his bench rest figures. That means the BEST he can count on at 300yds in the field is 9" groups. How does that compare with the old "paper plate" standard? Pretty poorly, if you ask me - and we haven't even discussed the issue of being able to repeat this performance over and over without fail. And the article doesn't even touch on the inaccuracies of range estimation, unkown wind velocities, and movement of targets' effects on field accuracy.

Nevertheless, it's an idea that interests me. While I have no expectation of ever being able to make 300yd shots with my .50cal Knight Wolverine, I have experimented with long-range loadings in the PR bullet. For me (and I have fairly good eyes), anything over about 150yds requires a scope. So this type of hunting - in Idaho, at least - must be done outside of muzzleloader seasons. And that is as it should be.

So what's the point? Well, for me, it's the possibility of using the same gun for all hunting. It will still always be limiting in the centerfire seasons (it will NEVER approach the capabilities of my .300 mag - which I sold) - but for me, it is about hunting.

And, for the record, I am against making ultra-PBR shots on game with any weapon (i.e. no "holdover"). Those kind of shots are fine for paper targets, and even fine for military snipers - but they have no place in big game hunting, IMO.

-FreeMe

FreeMe,.... Finally we are start'n to agree on several things. However, please keep "in mind" thet the "posters" (from the other board) were state'n "facts" (as they see them), AND promote'n such "facts" to be well within reason in "hunt'n situations",..... Wakeman pharses it thus:... <"Yet, for those who likes a challenge, effective long range muzzleloading of deer to caribou sized game is not just possible, it is plausible. The requisites for takeing at ranges up to 300 yards with a muzzleloader is within anyone's grasp, if they are willing to work at it a bit".>...... "a bit"??? (Heck thet ain't much!!.. but I think yore word "intimately" fit's much better!!),.... and his,... "within anyone's grasp"????????????? (I wonder how many hunter's think they can actually do this "while hunt'n" (even tho they was have'n "a bit" of trouble do'n it at the "range, and off a bench"??)

The fella thet claims he'll shoot at critters out to 400 yards if he "wants" to,.... has me feel'n sorry for any critters in his "neighborhood"!!

Like you,... I don't care "what" the idiots try on "paper", but when it comes to "live'n critters", they'er gonna hear from me!! ("hype" belongs in a "stool",.... and "flushed"!!)

I don't shoot deer with my .300 mag at 300 yards unless I am prone with a bipod and I wouldn't shoot over 150 yards with my inline, and that would be during regular season when it is legal to use a scope (open sights only for muzzleloader season). I have the QR mounts to swap between legal equipment easily.

That said, I think SOME shooters can take full advantage out to well beyond 300 yards, I don't know at what point the muzzleloaders energy falls below 500 ft. lbs. but I'm pretty sure it still is double that at 300. Of course the trajectory will look more like a rainbow when you get out there but I do know there's shooters that can make it work - I ain't one of 'em and I don't think that anyone should imply this is the norm...

Rollin,
Internet babble aside inlines that are accurate enough to shoot 300 yards even if they have the ballistics are a rare thing and owners who do have one many times are'nt interested in shooting that range or putting the time in at the range/load development in anyhow. From ballistic tables my inline is easily a 250 yard gun with the bullets I use. And it may well be. But as it stands now I've only shot it to 200 yards at paper, get about a 6" group, some of which is me, and basically don't have to concern myself with range until beyond that. Out of the dozen + deer I have shot with it two have been over the 150 yard mark-170 and 200 and both were one shot kills including my nicest buck to date. My way of saying it is mostly hypathetical but probally almost attainable with somebody with the desire to do so . I'm speaking of 300 yards. 400 yards is just as possible I guess as it is with my sidelock. You'd need to know the range, know where it's shooting at that range, have a gun that is accurate enough, (which my sidelock is and my inline is not) , Know the bullet has what it takes to work, which I'd have just as much faith in my 500 grain .45 as any in line bullet regardless of how fast it was going, and be able to pull it off. If you become a prodigy with anything you can do amazing things. But for the other 99.9% it is BS and wrong to put them thoughts in average peoples heads.

A "smokeless" cartridge, such as the 45-70 loaded to over 2000 FPS, with 300-350 gr. jacketed bullets,.... is STILL considered to be a "woods cartridge",..... "HOW" can an in-line with the same "ballistics" now be acceptable as a "long-range" hunt'n rifle by ethical hunters, and the 45-70 still remains a "wood cartridge"????

FVA,.... I guess I'm jest have'n problems with try'n to understand "WHY" experienced in-line shooters "DON'T" bring the folks spead'n BS to "TASK"??

After all, I'd think it'd be in yore "best innerest", in regards to keep'n yore muzzleloader-seasons intact if yore state decides to change some "regs" 'cause of the "hype" they gotta be hear'n like everone else!

Rollingb has one hell of a point. The 45-70 will out ballistic any muzzle gun yet it is considered a 150 yards max. woods gun. Most guys with .300 Mags can't shoot well enough to drop a deer at 400 yards.
Yet these bozo's will try to convince people that an in-line can cleanly harvest game at 400 yards with special bullets and cupfulls of Pyrodex.
I dunno. What ever happened to HUNTNG game instead of long range sniping?

400 yards with an in-line.....YOU GOTTA BE SH%$$@# ME. The only muzzle loader in -line or other that will shoot accuratly 400 yards and cleanly kill game is....NONE. Who is this wanna be super hunter. The object of hunting as, I see it, is just that hunting. In order to hunt one must stalk as best as one can to get in as close as possible to make a clean one shot kill. No way can Joe super hunter do that at 400 yards with his in-line, just ain't so. 400 ft might be pushing it for a lot of folks. I am no fan of in-line muzzleloaders, only because I believe they are simply ugly. If we all play on the same field by the same rules then shoot what ya brung. But don't go blowin smoke up me skirt .I call bull$zit on this one.

Bullwnkl.

OK!!!.... EVERBUDDY!!... "HANG ON TO YORE HATS"!!!!!!!!!!

I'll bet the "special muzzleloader SEASONS",...... will "GO SOUTH" shortly after "THIS MONSTER" hits the WalMart shelves.

It'll push a 300 gr. bullet to over 2,900 FPS
and,.............. a 180 gr. bullet to 3,100 FPS

I ain't found out what calibur it is yet, but consider this,.... a:

1. 460 Weatherby Mag pushs a 300 gr. bullet to 3,000 FPS
2. 458 Win Mag pushs a 300 gr. bullet at only 2,100 FPS
3. 416 Weatherby Mag pushs a 300 gr. bullet to 3,000 FPS
4. and,.... a 416 Rem Mag "ONLY " pushs the 300 gr. bullet 2,850 FPS

This "NEW" in-line, "BEATS" the 416 Rem Mag, and the 458 Win Mag,..... "hands down"!!!!

Are you "IN-LINER'S" ready to say "GOODBYE"!!!!.... to the special "muzzleloader" seasons,..... NOW?????? (I jest "knew" this was gonna happen sooner or later,.... and EVERBUDDY'LL have the high-tech "in-line" industry,.... to "thank" for it!!)

http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/product1.html

Bullwnkl,.... I ain't mentioned 1/2 of "what" thet canadian poster was say'n. If you want to check it out,... go to:

Greybeard Outdoors

Check out the,... "Long distance with the .50 calibur",... thread

His name is "Omega"

Sorry for being off-topic:

No glasses and I'm tired - my eyes morphed the "rn" in "Modern" to "m" - "Modem in-line capabilitys...."

What the heck does any of this to do with modems?

Sit down and breath deeply rollin. The sky aint falling yet.
By the way a 458 wm will go 2500 with the 300 gr bullet.
Now I don't know what firing off 250 grains of powder behind a 180 or 300 grain bullet is like but I do know what 110 behind a 500 in a 8 pound rifle is like and it is substantial.
Beside the primer is basically a sawed off cartridge case that expands and seals off the breach just like a centerfire. Should'nt be too hard to make up some wording to outlaw this monster.

FVA,.... Do you reckon thet this "Ultimate In-line Muzzleloader" is the only case of "over bore capacity" we'll see from the "high tech'ys"????

If tha "sky should fall",... it wouldn't bother me none, jest hate to see tha possibility of some'a my "friends" lose'n extra "hunt'n time"!!

The 45-70's are more than powerful enough to shoot much farther than most people shoot 'em. There are long-range silhouette for that cartridge. I've seen 400 yard shoots and they hit 'em with amazing results. However, these weren't at live game, but they should still work. I feel as long as a person can hit the animal accurately, and the bullet has at least 500 ft. lbs. of energy when it gets there then go for it if you can do it... I can't!

Back to this inline discussion... With the slow speed burn of black powder and its substitutes I think you'd have to have a 40" barrel to take advantage of 250 grains of powder.

What orta happen is allow them danged in-line thingy's in the regular rifle season and bring back the original PRIMITIVE season for side lock and flint guns only!

Or, better yet, require ALL firearms allowed in primative to be authentic primitive weapons (not reproductions) made prior to metallic cartridge guns. Would that satisfy everyone?
This has to be one of the most narrow-minded discussion groups I'm associated with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Why sit around and gripe about what should and shouldn't be legal? If you're so convinced it's right then contact your elected officials and get it changed. Obviously not everyone feels that way or there'd be no new developments in BP design and it wouldn't be an issue. Everybody gets something different out of thier time afield - some want to hunt the way thier grandfathers did, others just want to fill the freezer.
Maybe I wrongly thought this forum would be a place for me to enjoy my time.