Home Forums Lever Action Central Cowboy Levers .357 mag black bear loads

I need a bit of advice for loading a "little gun" for bear. I make several canoe/fly-in trips each year in the northern bush, and I like to take a small handy gun along in case of a food emergency or in case a nuisance black bear won't leave camp alone. We can't use handguns. I have bigger rifles and shotguns, but the rifle I want to bring is a Rossi Puma .357 mag. stainless carbine. This rifle will be almost never used, it's just insurance - and the stainless steel is a big advantage for low maintenance. I have no experience with the .357 on game, but figure I'm better off packing a little rifle that I will actually keep in camp rather than leaving heavier stuff at home. So, am I nuts? What do you recommend for ammo? So far I have been shooting various 158 gr. flat points. I do handload, and was thinking that the Hornady 180 gr. XTP's might be a good choice.

the double tap ammo would be my choice, if you don,t handload, something similar in a handload will be fine.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/ca...;osCsid=8d61416f72c036663971544f144cdb5c

15.5 grains of H110 under a 158 grain bullet packs a decent wallop if you shoot accurately, but a 357 mag is hardly a stopping rifle if the placements off from the ideal.
MY B.I.L uses a 357 marlin carbine for deer hunting, its fine for that, at ranges under 70-100 yards when you place shots well, but its not my first choice for defending and repelling borders at bayonette ranges, ID suggest a marlin or BROWNING BLR in 450 marlin or 45/70 calibers loaded with 405 remington, or 400 hard cast bullets pushed to 1600-1700fps, or a good slug loaded 12 ga, for that application, the cost of an EFFECTIVE stopping rifle, or slug gun, should the need arrize will look rediculusly low compared to the PERSONAL COST if you fail to stop a totally pissed off bear. dropping a pissed off aggresive bear 3 feet outside your tent at 3 am,rather than 3 feet inside your tent makes it worth the cost...think it thru!! theres a couple campers killed every few years, chances are low but hardly non-existant, remember having the bear die from wounds is of little value if he gets to your butt for a few seconds before he surcomes....killing is not the main object ,it stopping him instantly,and doing massive injury thats the object, and shot placement may be less than ideal, if your shooting at a fast approaching target from your sleeping bag, in the dark

Here is what I use in a 357 Mag 10 inch T/C Contender and my Bro in a 4 inch S&W Mod 28. I use it for deer and he uses it for black bear situations like yours. He has yet to have one.

180g Lazercast FP
Starline brass
9.2g Bluedot
CCI 500 primer
OAL - 1.598"
mild roll crimp

Out of the T/C - 1330 fps. Good for deer up to 50-60 yards. Your speed in a carbine should be slightly higher.

If I was in a situation where I could encounter a bear in a bad mood I would want nothing less than a 12 gauge with slugs. The chances of you surviving a bear attack using a 357 Mag carbine are pretty slim. A light 12 gauge pump weighs a pound more? I don't see the slightest reason to use a totally inadequate weapon.

A 357magnum out of a carbine length barrel puts it just about in the 30-30 class. It will be more powerful than the 44-40 Winchester, which was used in the 1800's to take all manner of small and large game. Major Wesson used it in a S&W pistol to kill all manner of North American game. (Yes, skill is always a factor.) Corbon makes some powerful factory loads that should do the job, if you must use this cartridge and gun. The Hornady XTP should give excellent terminal performance if you are a handloader. 158 grain bullets will be optimum. B-Bore has some 180gr 357 loads that are going out of a marlin carbine at 1851fps.

Gary

Thanks for the replies. My reason for keeping a rifle with me is much more about survival situations that may require food gathering, less about problem bears. I appreciate all the advice though.
The black bears in my area have a reputation as camp robbers, not attackers. Even though the possibility exists of a predatory black bear stalking me, I'm not very concerned about that. I've spent thirty years camping, canoeing and hiking in the bush, mostly with no firearm, and have had no problems so far. I don't believe that black bears in a "bad mood" will attack people, unlike grizzlies. Another factor is that nearly all the bears I have heard of that have actually preyed on people were the 150 lb two-year-olds that were recently kicked off the teat to fend for themselves. Not very big adversaries, but not something I'd want to face with only a knife. So, my intention is to pack mostly .38 special lead round nose loads for food gathering, ( grouse, rabbits and such) and just keep a magazine full of heavy loads for "contingencies". I probably should have asked what works best for deer, and just kept quiet about the "bear" possibilities, but I suppose even using a .357 carbine on deer is somewhat controversial. Small ammo manufacturers like B-bore are not generally available in Canada. Of the big companies, is there a load by Fed/Win/Rem/Hornady that you can recommend?

Remington makes a jacketed 180-gr hunting load for the .357 Magnum.

Can you get Corbon in Canada? They have 180gr and 200gr in 357 mag loads.

Wow I wouldn't even consider less than a 44 mag but if your are stuck with a 357 I'd look at Buffalo bore.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

....I agree with many comments above alluding to the 357 being VERY light indeed for bear! It's not that a black bear couldn't be killed with one, a 22RF could kill a bear, BUT it is not a good choice as a dedicated bear stopper! Neither is it a wise choice as a camp stopper for PROBLEM bear! Why gamble life and limb on a MARGINAL caliber for your intended use?

....The handy little Rossi 92 replica is a fine gun from the standpoint of portability around camp, but the 44 mag or a mag pressure loaded 45 Colt chambered Rossi would be a far better choice in the little gun.Better yet a Winchester 94 Wrangler in 38/55 with hot loads (not much more beefy a carbine than the sweet little 92)would up the ante if a rowdy bear acted up. Finally the suggestions of a slug loaded shotgun really swing odds more strongly to your side of any altercation! For something really handy and lightweight look around for a Ithaca model 37 pump gun (even 20 GA would be good), or a used Franchi AL48(this gun in 20GA would be lighter than the Rossi!).These guns with modern slug loads would be sufficient for an errant grizzly up close in camp!..Good luck, and good fortune on your jaunts afield..Hope you won't need bear protection..

OK I give up. I'll just pack my Win 94 in .356, bring some hoarded Win. factory loads with 250 grain bullets and will be prepared to shoot bears from stem to stern. I suppose I could load up a few 900 fps lead roundnose grouse loads for it too. And put it all in a waterproof gun case, and some oil and cleaning supplies, ... sigh. My pack just gained three or four pounds.

better to add 3-4 pounds to the gear than to take a small but valid chance on being ill prepared to deal with a deadly situation if it did ever occur. btw a CELL PHONE and having that "Win 94 in .356, bring some hoarded Win. factory loads with 250 grain bullets and will be prepared to shoot bears from stem to stern." would be my choice, but then, I generally carry a 358 win,45/70 or 450 marlin caliber lever action when I carry a lever action at all. (which I do, but I also carry a 340 wby or 375 H&H bolt action and 35 whelen slide action, at times

There is no cell phone service in the northern, unpopulated areas ( 80%) of Canada. If on a long trip with a group, we do sometimes rent a satellite phone. Most of the time a phone is not practical.

If you need I'll place a small wager that will be the lightest
3-4 pounds you ever carried.

Purty shure that most 357 ammo is Canada a No-No anyhow...Buy more life insurance before you go. Best wishes, Bill

Unlike grizzlies you do not hear of black bears pressing an attack through an onslaught of lead.
The rifle you mention is a nice size to carry as well as the ammo size being well suited to carrying a bunch. I'd have no fear of of using a 357 mag. with good bullets for a survival/unlikely black bear attack insurance rifle.

Brian Pearce wrote an article on 357 levers. Rifle 213.

Spoke of an incident, 140gr. SWC cast SAECO at 2,000 mv. owner had a Browning 92 converted to 357, had a sow black bear charge close range and killed it at a few feet instantly, bears momentum knocked down the guy, but he was ok. Combo worked.

No info on shot placement, or how many rounds, one or more.

Just thought I'd pass it on.

Well I sold the Win 94 .356 so I'm back to thinking about packing the .357. Nice to know not everyone thinks I'm crazy.

No, some of us still think you can kill something with a 357.

A .357 with 158 gr XTP HP's over 15-16 gr of 110 comes awfully close to the original 30-30 loads when used out of a carbine.

If you want penetration the 158 XTPHP works really well.

I have some hard cast loads and some 180 NPT's around too but the XTP's work well at the velocities they are designed for.

I would say that an Ithaca Ultralight deerslayer, especially a 20 gauge has a lot of appeal for what you are describing and it is a lot easier to pot the occasional grouse or rabbit.

A slug is formidable on bear inside 75 yards,and it is somewhat faster to run a pump gun, easier to reload too.

BTW, as to 357 = 30/30, my Marlin spits 158s at 2000-2050 w/Lil Gun. Likely nothing gained by pushing them faster than H110 does.

How much Lil' Gun?

Just took a look, 19.0 but not sure what book max is, would find out and go 10% under and work up.

I do use Rifle primers just because, not sure if that is needed or matters.

I'm surprised no one recommended Federal CastCore ammo. I think the 357 stuff is loaded with 180 grain bullets. If it cycles through your rifle, that should be all you'd need.

Fed. CC is good, and http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

1850 mv w/180 at above link looks to be a solid performer, should penetrate well.

I'd just be sure to shoot only if I had to, not wait too till a bear gets too close before lead starts to fly and aim true.

Yes, a 45/70 lever, 350 mag, etc. would make me more comfortable if I planned to really need something for a defensive encounter.

Brian Pearce's writing at times is questionable. There are those who want to believe his articles but really should know better. I'll add his accounting of this right up there with his dubious story about a double cape buff kill with one shot from the 45-70.
Never mind the fact that he didn't want to be responsible for the second trophy fee on that fenced hunt or that by his own admission he couldn't account for all the lead he tossed.
Sadly that kind of non sense sells magazines and really IMO that's just what hunting a buffalo with a 45-70 or using a 357 lever action as a bear DEFENSE round is.......Non sense.
IIR a lady in the late 50's killed a massive grizzly in an attack with a 22lr.
Sure doesn't make it the right choice.

Thanks Stetson,

You may notice my post directly above yours (specifically last 2 sentences), not advocating, and certainly not as a defense round, but sometimes, when people get in tight corners, and use what they have.....it works. Can one put themselves at higher risk with a smaller gun as a choice? Sure. Up to the individual as to how or if they arm themselves with more 'insurance' but I do not disagree that there are better rounds.

Would I rather a 357 than a 22 handgun for defense against criminals? SURE, but would I want to go up against someone who can pump 10 shots into center mass in 2-3 seconds.....nada.

The least anyone can do is have proper loaded ammo, regardless of whatever they use. Maybe your last sentence could also say 'best choice' as it is a crap shoot and I am not sure any cartridge has a GUARANTEE to stop any dangerous animal from killing you.

Watch this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6Mq-5P-ebc

Now I'd be willing to bet these guys, MULTIPLE hunters/guns, lead flying.....were using big bore elephant class rounds. Their carrying such rifles perhaps gave them too much confidence.....damn near costs someone their life.

Egotistical hunters carrying large guns and are disillusioned into thinking they are guaranteed safe need to be humbled, PRIOR to an event like above. I do believe sometimes hunters have SO much gun, that they cannot shoot well and control them and would be better off with a gun they can handle better, and place their shots on the mark, as a miss....is just that.

I am not sure any reasonable hunter would think they were over-armed with a 357 in bear country, nor would search one out. Just pointing out that one can get killed no matter what they carry.....especially if operating under wrong perception of safety.

Your post is not w/o merit, but I want you to understand what I was conveying and that we are not so far off as to your perception that might have alluded you to believe.

I respect the OP wanting to hedge bets with ammo that has the best chance for penetrating and killing should he get in a jam, realizing his choice may not be viewed as the best in caliber.

IMO a 357 is a rather poor choice for the intent of thwarting a bear attack irrespective of how hot you load it. If the OP is incapable of taking handgun ammo to Canada then that pretty much rules out the 44 mag and the 357. I don't have a clue what your trying to show with that very old canned hunt clip although it wouldn't suprise me if Brian Pearce could spin a real good tale about the great hunt.
It's not like you have to carry a 700 H&H to do a bit better in stopping power than a 357.

Trying to show that someone about got killed, despite toting cannons. Agree a 700 not needed, as I said before your post, in mine, a 45/70 or 350 mag would be more comforting. Fact is, one never wants to be attacked, but whatever it is, you better aim true, and have bullets that penetrate.

Years back when hi-vel was new and in vogue read about a Leopard or Lion attack in Africa, hunter was killed as his 280 Ross bullet blew up, so PROPER loads + PROPER shot placement count.

Foot pounds matter, and velocity, but do not tell the whole story. Personally, a 338/06 in a 20" barrel, Sako Pre-Garcia action would give me 5 rounds of potent medicine w/250 Nosler partitions. THAT would be my pick, strong controllable package for ME, and that ME is a variable for all. Recoil tolerance is not the same for all, and I contend that a round must be chosen that is shootable by the individual, as well as adequate. True, not great abundance or surplus of 'power' on tap with a 357 rifle, but many owners tell that it is nigh identical to a 30/30 in performance, esp. at closer distances. I would be interested in seeing what a 170 30/30 does vs a 180 hardcast 357 Rifle load, re: penetration etc.

Now how many bears do you suppose have fallen to 30/30s since 1895?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-30_Winchester

Characteristics and use
The .30-30 is considered by many to be the "entry-class" for modern deer cartridges. While it will take deer- and black bear-sized game, it is limited in effective range to approximately 200 yards (183 m) for that purpose. It is common to define the characteristics of similar cartridges as being in ".30-30 class" when describing their effectiveness.

I stand that at ranges up to 100 yds, a properly loaded 357 rifle will match a 30/30 for killing power. If I am wrong, it must be shot placement IMHO. Ideal, no, but try arguing with the multitude of hunters who have fallen moose, elk and bear with 30/30s .....many many of them.

Will I choose one for bear country? Not if I had the opportunity to choose another rifle. If I was roaming the country and a 357 was what I had on hand, and a bear attacked would I hesitate to unload a lever 357 on it? Not for a second. At that point it's me or him......just don't expect the same results w/light HP bullets that will not penetrate as a heavy hardcast will.

I think Brian Pearce was illustrating the upper limits of what it can do, and has done when called to action, which was/is much more than many might give the 357 rifle performance credit for IMHO.

"Now how many bears do you suppose have fallen to 30/30s since 1895"

That's pretty much a totally moot point. I'm sure we all realize that much game has been taken with lesser cartridges in years prior, BP before that, bow and arrow before that etc.
The real question that needs to be asked is how many bears have succesfully fallen to the 357 in SELF DEFENSE not when one is taking the time for a well placed shot. Big difference. So the whole side bar about bullet construction, shot placement etc is valid but doesn't replace the simple fact that in self defense mode HP counts! As your article states the 30-30 is considered entry level and a 357 is a lesser cartridge when BOTH are loaded to their maximum capacity, for bear so to speak.
But hey that's just my .02 adjusted for inflation. But then I don't put much stock in a web site like Wiki that rates a 30-30 as a 200 yard gun.
I will conceed the 357 would be preferable to throwing rocks or even a 22. Still I'd even take the 30-30 over the 357. That's the beauty of having choices. You just use what ever trips yer trigger.

I can tell you, if a bullet test proves a 357 180 hardcast w/top loads penetrates better than a 30/30, and your 357 can be controlled better, aka more shots in less time, in a tighter group, what gun would you choose Stetson?

Horsepower counts, but so does accurate shot placement with bullets that reach vitals, and if real close, I'd be aiming for the head/neck with some of my 10 shots. A hard cast slug should penetrate bone well enough.

We both agree a 357 is not a top pick on bear, but I think your posts puts a 357 rifle near a 22 in killing power, whereas I believe its very close to a 30/30. As to a 'moot point' I don't think so.

Your Discounting the truckloads of game a 30/30 has killed, yet say you'd use one.....if you had a choice over a 357, yet you and I both know, there has not been a widespread use of a 357 rifle on game larger than deer to have any data to speak from so just because it does not have the history, does not make it drastically inferior to a 30/30 w/top loads.

Now I wonder how many bear have been killed when people had a 44 handgun as a back up? How many Alaskans tote 44's when fishing or meandering outdoors? In Grizzly country?

Now how does a 357 rifle load compare in HORSEPOWER to a 44 handgun? How many controlled shots in how much time can one get off with either?

I guess it matters if you are comparing the 357 rifle to a larger rifle cartridge, or to a large handgun i.e. 44 mag that is a standard that many feel comfortable to carry and few argue is a good choice in any bear country, WITH GOOD penetrating bullets.

Kinda sounds moot now to me why all the negatism by you towards a 357 rifle w/good loads. I'd rather have 10 shots on tap, with more accuracy and consistency, and speed, than a 44 handgun and 6 bullets. In fact some prefer a 10mm Glock w/more rounds than a 44, using penetrating bullets. Must be something to accuracy, penetration, and controlled multiple shot capability according to the hunters in AK and elsewhere who tote Glocks.

It seems the answer to why the lack of confidence lies in perception and not facts as again I'd like to see penetration test as I believe a 357 with good loads will give the penetration needed to get to vitals at close ranges. A 22 is rarely going to give it thru bones in a bear Stetson, you know that.

That is just me.

Enjoyed the debate.

The real question is how many black bears have seen through a attack after having a decent piece of lead shot into it.
Grizzlies would be pretty easy to come up with examples of such. Black bears?

I would think twice of shooting a large Grizz with a 357 rifle, unless it was last ditch and no doubt as to a definite attack.

ANY bear encounter I would suspect would best be not shoot upon site if not charging, and hope the bear moves on, but if it is close, very close, it could be a standoff, and running is not a good option.

Pepper spray is said to be effective and might be a great option for many to carry afield. I have seen footage of a bear leaving after sprayed, but we do know that cannot kill them, nor guarantee stopping but likely could thwart continued charge if used correctly.

Personally hope I never face that situation, but preparedness in what you carry, and a plan of action is a good thing.

I have no idea where you drempt that one up. The simple fact is that a 357 is less powerfull than a 30-30. Period. So I'd opt for the 30-30. I don't care what kind of wizz bang hardcast bullet you have. The bottom line is we both agree that the 357 is not the best choice so the rest is just twaddle.




It seems very early to be drinking so either you need a better pair of glasses or this cold is kicking my azz much harder than I thought. I think you need to point out where I "discounted truckloads of game killed by the 30-30". Do you just make this stuff up as you go? The fact is that you can't group in all the whitetails killed hunting with a 30-30 and make any sort of realistic comparison as a self defense bear weapon. And no the 357 is not "drasticlly inferior" just a bit inferior in a ballistic sense. You seem to continue to over look the fact that one is not obligated to use the most anemic 30-30 commercial rounds. I'm not even going touch your whole off topic rant about handguns except to say I strongly suspect that there a hella lot more 12 guages being used for this purpose or 45-70 guide guns than glocks.
I'm guessing your a Brian Pearce groupie.

I can't say I know but I've seen BB's eat a lot of lead. Bottom line for me is that if I had to take a lever gun and I couldn't take pistol ammo the 45-70 guide gun would be a top choice for me.

Sorry Stetson, no drinking going on here, I'd be VERY interested in seeing a ballistic comparison via test media, wound channel and depth and width of the 30/30 with your load of choice, and a 357 with a top load. My point is, I don't think there is a lot of difference that would be measurable by game within a hundred yards.

Yes, as I stated earlier also there are better choices. My deer I shot tonight w/357 did not argue. It dropped right in it's tracks and never got up.

It will be interesting to see how the 357 stacks up when the new Heavy 30-30 from Buffalo Bore is out.

That will be interesting. Should be a very good load if it is like all else they mfg. and good news to 30/30 owners.

I posted earlier this year about an experience I had trying to kill a large bear with a 357. There were replies from people that had seen several bears shot with 357s, and it did not get good reviews at all.
I have shot some deer with a 32 Special which is a ballistic twin to the 30/30 and can see that turning or stopping a bear. It does a heck of a lot of damage, especially at shorter ranges. I also have shot a lot of pistol and rifle bullets into home made test mediums, and can't see the 357 being even in the same class as a 30/30. Bill Jordan worked with Smith & Wesson to develope the 41 Magnum because the 357 was somewhat lacking as a people stopper.

Fred

Fred,

Was that 357 from a revolver or 357 from a carbine?

Plink

I was using a 4 inch barreled revolver-

The important info came from the other posts that responded- Not many thought well of the 357. I don't believe the difference in velocity between a handgun and a rifle is going to significantly increase the killing power.
There are very few people that have to deal with a charging black bear, and a miniscule number that have stopped several charges, so we have to go with what the researchers tell us.
Bear spray is the overwhelming winner when it comes to bear attacks that have been documented, from all the info I can gather.

Royce

Fred, re: pistol 357s stopping people, bullets are key, the 125 JHP loads were giving around 97% one shot stops IIRC.

As to velocity, well, 1240mv /540 ft. lbs. Fed factory 158gr ammo-whatever pistol bbl length tested, surely a 4" or maybe 6".

My Marlin spits said 158 grain, at 2000+ for 1400 Lbs.

Hmmmm, looks like the rifle has 260%, that is 2.6x the energy.

Have you shot a Rifle in 357 Royce? I will paste a post from another forum by a man who used the 357 exclusively. It was a random find via google.

Re: What good is the .357 Magnum rifle for whitetail deer hunting?
10-06-2008, 09:22 PM
Rries Rries is offline
New Family Member Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1


Re: What good is the .357 Magnum rifle for whitetail deer hunting?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Periscope Depth Wow where to start. My dad used to go hunting with some guy named Roy and Dad used to sell his rifles. Out of this I got a Weatherby 257 magnum with my initials on it. Needles to say I could not hunt with this rifle for fear of scratching it. As a kid I traded a half dead calf for a little 357 rifle. Everyone has a 270 or a 30-06 for a near perfect all around hunting rifle. Then the hope of an Africa hunt and a 375HnH shows up on the rack. Then the fever hits and a specific rifle for specific type of hunting comes to mind. The middle ground is covered the high end is usually covered with some type of mega magnum but what about the lower end. I believe the 357 rifle fills this bill very well. Now back to a day in the life growing up in MT. I would wake up go out to the CJ2 and grab the 357 ck barrel load it up with bird shot and go into the barn and shoot pigeons that were crappin all over the combines. Then outside (2 notches up on rear sight) load it up with 38spec 148grain wadcutters and attempt to shoot some pesky cats. It would make a nice pop so mom would not wake up and realize what I was doing. Hop into the Jeep to fence or some kind of work, load it up with full house 170grain Keith style bullets and hope I would see that massive 7 pointer or maybe get to split another coyote in half.
Not enough for deer? Has anyone looked at the original 30-30�s load and it was considered a bear killer. I have killed 30 mules� whitetails and one elk with this rifle. One of those deer was out to 200yards.
Let�s compare some store bought stuff. Buffalo bore 357 180 grain bullets; they leave my 18 inch barrel around 2000fps. A 170 grain 30-30 leaves a 22inch barrel at 2200fps. A 357 is about 30% wider before expansion and 10% heavier. The 30-30 wins velocity by 10% but I can throw a ball 200fps. 35rem due to its low pressure is pretty much the same. Comparing same 158grain bullet. Some people may say the BC is better but at 150yrds this is miniscule. Choose a median gel wet news paper and you will see why it works so well. The 357 is a hand loaders dream and it is cheap. My brother and I would sit and shoot over a thousand rounds at small rocks at around 200yrds every Sat. This is the only thing that really matters in hunting the accuracy of the shooter ,um��practice. Most reload manuals are using fast burning pistol powders which really limit the potential. Thanks to cowboy action slower burning powders like Hod LilGun are using the full potential and keeping pressure well within limits and velocity higher.
I have moved around a lot, an army thing and I still like Mt the most but now that I live in WI the 357 is all I use. I do like showing up the neighbor and his new 300Win short magnum. I bounce between 180 to 158 but the 125 is made to be frangible and not over penetrate so it would not be a good choice for deer.
I blab a lot but there are many other writers on the web that have taken a serious look and agree with me. Get it and you will be very happy.


I thought the above users comments might shed light on the 357, WHEN used in a Rifle obtaining SIGNIFICANTLY higher velocity and energy, which MUST correlate into SIGNIFICANTLY higher killing power vs. traditional revolver ballistics.

Hope that helps some sort thru the ballistic minutia/Gack of 357...Rifle vs. Handgun performance.

BTW, what I found when running numbers just now, a 357 from a rifle, has the SAME energy remaining at 200 yards, as a handgun does at the muzzle! SO, 1282 fps/576 lbs at 200 yds, when started at 2,000 mv in a rifle.....

Yes, a 30/30 has higher velocity and energy, but I am confident the 357 in a rifle will give very good results in ballistic media and on game at typical ranges lever actions are used. Both are likely under rated and overlooked when compared to today's rifles, but they have and will take alot of game at woods ranges. Seriously, if you put a 357 handgun round point blank into a deer or other animal, thru vitals, I doubt it's going far and a rifle's accuracy and shootability will allow easier shot placement, and further, as well as higher energies.

It's no 308, but it's not a popgun either. Ask the deer I shot last Friday afternoon. DRT, as in DROPPED RIGHT THERE and never left tracks. 75 yds.

Your point about the 125 grain bullet in the 357 having 97 % stops is correct, I believe.
By the way 65br, what load do you use to get 2000 fps with a 158 grain bullet in a 357? The only two sources I could find gave a top load velocity of around 1600 fps.
Perhaps the 357 in a rifle is an adequate bear stopper but until I saw something more conclusive I would choose something that has a more solid track record.

Royce

From Buffalo Bore's site, regarding their 357 mag ammo:

18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps

And a worthy read...

357 Magnums

1935 - Major Douglas Wesson

* Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)
* Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)
* Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)
* Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)

Better hunters than I ever hope to be have used it to harvest some pretty tough game.

Plink

Royce, I am not advocating a 'bear stopper' but feel if it were in my hands - a rifle, and called upon, I can with confidence commence firing with proper loads and know it will get the job done if I do my part. Little margin of error perhaps, but shot placement is paramount with any caliber. 12 gauge with buckshot or slugs or a 350 mag surely would be preferable, but to answer your question - My load (safe in my Marlin) is 19.0 of Lil gun. That powder added a good bit of performance to the 357, esp. in a rifle over previous powders.

I'd assume 1750-1800+ is had with H110/W296, etc. in rifles.

Plinker, I will add that my recollection says, 1) Wesson used an 8 3/8" bbl 2) Loads then were VERY hot, and since been toned down for factory loads

Marksmanship was 95% of the outcome - as I can imagine shot placement was 'EXACT' and we don't know/I don't know what other animals may have been fired upon and not recovered.

That said, the history stands even though I'd imagine Wesson pushed the rounds envelope to prove its capabilities and sell the public on it's utility.

I do recall an article on a guy who was fascinated with a .30 Luger Broomhandle and took bears with it. Combo of high Vel w/jacketed small cal. bullets enabled penetration thru vitals. These feats are surely had when the users were crackshots and placed slugs in/thru vitals leading to success in the field.

Paco has some great reads, seems to love levers, as well as 35s.

Have you been drinking again? I'm starting to wonder if maybe crack isn't involved. Just joking of course but lets get real. You found some post on Google from some unknown entitity with a single post that claims his dad hunted with Roy Weatherby and now he shoots rocks at 200 yards with a 357! LMAO That may be the funniest and most worthless post I have ever read. Unless you are Elmer Keith you sure won't be shooting at 200 yards with a 357. I'm starting to seriously doubt that you have ever shot a single bear let alone been up close and personal.
It's not exactly like the wittle 30-30 is the epitome of over kill and recoil.

Let me clearly state here that I am no expert on either bears or the 357 round in revolver or rifle form. My intent was to point out some information that I had been exposed to, and let others decide if if applied to their situation.
In the process, I ended up learning something, namely that Buffalo Bore makes some very stout loads for the 357.
I believe there is a significant difference between taking a big game animal that you have stalked and/or is unaware of your presence and stopping a determined charge from a few feet away of an animal that could weigh 400 or 500 pounds.
I don't understand the logic of "Well, I am going to take a bear protection gun, but I won't probably need it, so I'll take something that will maybe work".
Phil Shoemaker, who posts here as 458 Win has written about using the 357 as a bear stopper, but he and his family live with bears on a daily basis and are very familiar with bear behavior. I believe in one of his recent articles, he said that in the 25 years or so that he and his family have been guiding bear hunters and living in bear country, he and his employees have only had to kill one bear in defense of life and property. However, when the rest of us mere mortals encounter a bear, there is going to be a lot more of the pucker factor involved.
Bottom line, if you believe the 357 is an adequate bear stopper, you could be right.

Royce

"Bottom line, if you believe the 357 is an adequate bear stopper, you could be right"

Then again you could be dead wrong! As you said there is no comparison to killing game stalked to killing DG in an unexpected charge. Some use bow and arrow for grizzly. I don't see any one using a bow for self defense and talking about broad head weight. I could care less what any one uses but is phuggin comical listening to some one pull drivel off from Google and compare shooting whitetails or rocks to charging bears. Personally I won't be taking a 45-70 for Cape buffalo any time sooner than I take a 357 lever gun for self defense against a bear attack. IMO there are those who just want to believe what they read and they are far more likely to be the ones that become statistics. After all if you read it on the internet it must be true!

Well, call me Elmer because I shoot 200 yard targets with my Marlin 1894C in 357 Mag. Out of said carbine, the old 357 mag equals the 357 Remington Maximum out of a T/C Contender.

Still, it's not my first choice to stop a charging bear.

If you can hit a standard target and shoot groups at 200 yards then your for sure a better shot than I am. Even at 100 yards I have trouble shooting what could be described as groups. It's more like 4" patterns. 200 yards is way beyond my ability with this round but then I'd say the same thing about the 44mag. I've seen a target shot at 650 yards with a handgun from a 44. Not that it didn't take hours and hundreds of rounds to finally hit the mark.

Well Stetson, I guess the Truth is all dependent upon the user, and the results.

I don't believe all I read, nor on crack or drinking etc. I have done alot of reading and many people compare top 357 rifle loads to 30/30 factory loads. Long ago using another persons 30/30 with a steel buttplate, I found it uncomfortable to fire to say the least. That same round I loved in my TC 10" w/Pachmayr grips, even shot a group w/factory 150 corelokts that I will swear to must have measured like 1/4" C-t-C at 50 yds with 2x scope.

MY gun, w/Peep sights wadded up MANY bullets around 1" at 50 yds with my loads, so I have no doubt many/most Marlins will group 1.5-3" groups consistently....if the shooter is up to it.

I won't argue that a 357 Mag in pistol or rifle is ideal or preferred if one had to defend themselves against a Black Bear, but if one has calm nerves and time to fire a few well placed shots, I have confidence, even though you don't that I would be ok. Maybe I am wrong. The only way we will know is if I someday were to be in that situation, and odds are I will be carrying a rifle in a larger cartridge.

Its more for discussion purposes, but I get a laugh out of how much gun some use to hunt deer, and other game at common ranges somehow feeling inadept with lesser rounds.

Marksmanship w/bullets that penetrate vitals, preferably with expansion. Barnes 140 X bullet in 357 might be a hard one to beat in a situation like the hypothetical one discussed, but I'd be content as well with Buffalo Bore Hardcast loads.

Stetson, btw, years back, I shot a 4" 629 at the range one day, my shooting buddy had a few milk jugs with water, I asked if I could try some. At 100 yds, my 3rd shot offhand hit/exploded the jug using a 200 Nosler 44 cal. w/4grains under max load. Then I tried at 150 yds, my first shot exploded that jug.

With my Marlin, when I first got it using open sights, at 100 thru 150 yds, I was exploding 2 liter coke bottles and milk jugs filled with water, about 7 out of 10 shots sometimes more often, OFFHAND.

I am no expert, but many peers have said I do pretty good. The buddy above called me the following week asking what I was using, 'a 6" 629?' and I said, NO, a 4". His next comment, leave the rifles at home, as I shot better than many guys do with rifles.

SO, what I am saying is we all have different comfort levels, and confidence that comes with range time, that usually increases hit ratios, allow one to start forgetting foot pounds and velocity so much, and focus on hitting what you shoot at.

I have no doubt on the post I found, it was one of many I found googling 30/30 loads vs. 357 rifle loads. There are those with the time and ambition to spend lots of time getting to know their weapon of choice.

A rifle zero'd at 100, IIRC, drops about 10" at 200 in a 357 rifle.

That is not much different than a say 30/06, zero'd at 200, dropping at 300.

Hitting targets at 200 is not a chip shot, but not very difficult either when you get the drop. MY EXPERIENCE puts my confidence level to 150, as the drop gets more severe at 200 no doubt, but it is not that difficult. Try it sometimes.

I shot a 1.25" 3 shot group (two cutting same hole) checking my 357 zero last week, using a baby 2.5x Leupold, at 70 paces, off the top of my car, over a boot laying on it's side for a front rest. Nothing special, and not bad for a gun with an admittingly heavy factory trigger.

I'll continue hunting and killing deer with my 357 which is what I got it for, as well as for the 'fun factor' as maybe you should see what you're missing and try one! It is a combo that is surprisingly deadly on deer sized game, w/o the bark and recoil of larger rounds, nor the meat destruction.

On crack, you're too funny my friend! LMAO...

LOL Well that last post I can agree with for the most part although I honestly have never heard any one complain about the recoil from a turty turty. After all A hella lot of young hunters over the years have wound up the proud owner of a Model '94 as their first gun. I also agree I can place them like you say at 75 yards. All day long. At 100 it takes more work. By 125 it's another story let alone 200. The Marlin is a great gun but it is was it is. It's not a long range weapon. I don't doubt it can be done I just don't see the relevance to the topic. Bears can eat a lot of lead. Having said that grizz has been stopped in his tracks with one shot from a bow and arrow. That's a fact. I'll stick with the 44 mag.

No long range weapon correct, BC is not high either, I have other rifles, my limit though is 400 under ideal conditions, right rifle, perfect rest, no wind, KNOWN range, etc. Killed one deer that far with a 6mmBR, a few others around 250/275yd w/270 and 6.5x55, but most shots under 200, in fact likely 80% under 100yds. I like long range shooting, and it's a rush taking one far, but the thrill of having game up close gives me the biggest thrill. The challenge of being limited by a weapon useful at close ranges was why I got the 357. To add an element of challenge I guess you could say. Finding I may be using it alot more on stands I hunt in the woods at my buddy's place, as well as a climber. May be pulling the scope back off and force myself to use Irons. Some day I am going to dust off my long bow under the bed if my brother would ever assemble my arrows.

I imagine that one experience with that 30/30 long ago was with a metal buttplate that was the main culprit. I did not want to shoot it again, but being a 20 year old w/little HP rifle experience under my belt, I was surprised. I was myself using a 7mag as I got a deal at a gunshow for a 700 adl for $200, but I had wanted a 270. I proceeded to load down for deer to 280 levels. Later sold it, gun too heavy, recoil/blast also for what I needed....over the years used many guns/calibers, etc. but shot placement was/has been the determining factor. Knowing what a cartridge/load WILL do and won't do, makes one use discipline in if/when and where to aim when hunting. The day I shot the 400yd deer, I double lunged it broadside w/105 amax and it died in 25 yds from hit. Seconds earlier had a deer at 200yd standing still facing away from me, so I shot the backbone as it was dead on zero at the range, and I know I had little penetration at the higher impact speed up close with a frangible bullet. Dropped right there, and bullet did as I figured, completely vaporized on backbone.

You know what amazes me Stetson, not the bow and arrow, but the one that an indian woman shot with a single shot 22 rifle, had one bullet, in a berry patch and Griz smelled her and stood up, she squatted, fearing the inevitable, put one behind the ear IIRC, and killed it dead. Now that was fate, good for her, bad for the bear. That comment about Phil only having once in 25 yrs is a nice to know, that statistically odds are one hopes to never have a bad encounter, but it does happen.

I do not want anyone to be a bear's dinner and recommend when able, people carry something with a good amount of power, but that they can still shoot well. I do think people can/do overgun themselves at times and the adverse affect it has on accuracy can be counterproductive.

BTW, I don't claim to be able to shoot that well at will with a handgun, and I can imagine under stress, a handgun is all the more difficult to aim, at a bear, much less deer. Taken 2 myself -deer, with handguns, but admit when back in college, unloaded a few shots on a close range doe and only had ringing ears to show for it. I think my eyes were focused on deer, and not the sights.

Ahhhh, what experience and wisdom gained from that teaches us over time. How is the hunting up your way this year? My cousins and uncle are in Warren, was at my Aunt's funeral there a couple months ago. Hear the state...Detroit area hard hit by auto slowdown. Hope your not caught up in it.

I'm pretty close to Warren. The whole area has been impacted by the auto industry decline and many shops are trying to pick up bids on wind turbine parts now. Basiicly every one is waiting for Chrysler to go under. They had huge layoffs the night before Turkey day. I lost a good bit of my work a when Comerica and VW left the area.
The story about the Native woman with the 22 really is amazing. Not sure if that was AK or BC but some one once put her photo up here on the fire. I'll attach a link to the story about the guy that shot the bear with a bow that was attacking his boy.
BTW I actually really like the 357, or just about any pistol caliber that fits in a lever gun. To be honest I never met a lever action I didn't like.
I also agree about too much gun. God knows I see more than one fool at the range every year with the latest greatest 300 wizz bang magnum shooting the boards or some thing stupid because their ego is 10X the size of their ability.

http://www.codyenterprise.com/articles/2008/09/22/news/news3.txt

The only thing I really have against the guys that bring the big stuff to the range, is my ears get beat up big time, esp. the guys using the big 300s and when braked....if they hit what they aim at, all is well. Me, I just enjoy shooting ALOT when I go to the range, so heavy recoiling guns would never get as much shooting in one session, and for my style of hunting, I have done well w/o.

Reading that story was very interesting. That father got it together on his shot to save his son's life and KUDOS for his shooting skills, and more importantly the resolve to stay calm enough to pull it off.

Yeah was not sure about the Alaska/BC thing, but that woman was lucky.

We have a GM plant in my town, that is being/was shut down recently. I imagine the thought never occured to workers years in the past. Hopefully for you and the unemployed/underemployed i.e. my cousins, up your way, the auto industry makes a comeback. Perhaps newer technology can spark a much needed boost to the US auto industry, and the economy as a whole.

A poor choice for bear, but if you insist then I would opt for a hard cast bullet and try for the brain shot..I have shot enough game with the 357 pistol to determine to my satisfaction that its a piss poor caliber for anything except humans, that is where it excells.

My minimum would be the 44 mag. in a rifle and I would much prefer the Win. M-94 trapper in 30-30 for what you suggest. You can compare the .357 to the 30-30 all day long but when it comes to killing power there is NO comparison. If you have ever seen a pissed off bear or any other wild animal coming for you, then your perspective changes forever....

Personally not advocating shooting a bear, but would if it's all I had, and if properly loaded, would feel confident the killing power would be similar to a 30/30 at say under 100 yds. I'd be shocked if ballistic media test showed a top load in a 357 rifle, would be much worse than a 30/30.

Seems you have had experience with 357s on humans, but not bears. Picking cartridge choice for afield is often based on emotions, much as the buying and selling of stocks.

Agree on heavy hard cast (save a 140 Barnes) and brain shot and realize any marginal caliber requires exact shot placement to be most effective on stopping a large animal quickly. There are many better choices we all agree. I think a 44 with a heavy hard cast might surprise the hell out of someone who thinks the 30/30 will outpenetrate it. Higher vel with jacketed expanding bullet i.e. 30/30 often stops short of high momentum hard cast handgun bullets. Having shot both out of a TC handgun, I know which hit the ram much harder at 100 yds due to bullet blow up 30/30 vs. lack thereof, and sheer momentum due to bullet weight-44.

I'm with atkinson, I'd rather have a 30-30 or 35 Rem Trapper or Marauder for work on bear than a .357 Mag.. I doubt that the short carbine would be any heavier or longer than a 1894C and would speak with more authority.

Now a 35 Rem would surely give a noticeable difference in power, and then a 358, and a 350, and Whelen, and so on.

Yes, a 35 would be better, but ME, I've like handling the 450 Marlins back when they came out- at my gunshop, the 45/70s would do the same, close range, big heavy bullets, fast repeat shots, controlled, quick handling gun, open/peep sights, yep much better...than a 30-30 or 35 Rem I'd suppose.

I'd truly have to see ballistic media test results with 30/30 loads, vs heavy 357 loads. Stetson I believed mentioned Buffalo Bore ammo coming out-heavy, for 3030 so if so, that surely would win out, but if you look at heavy bullets loaded up for 357s, vs the jacketed 150/170s, I would be very interested in seeing how they hold up, deep they penetrate, and what wound channel looks like, before making a decision.

Suffice to say again, not advocating it be THE choice, but if it was what is in hand, with shot placement and good bullets-can do the deed.. however - without good shooting by a cool nerved shooter, results could be bad, in an unlikely albeit potentially dangerous black bear defense scenario no matter what one shoots. In that case, a 12 gauge might be best!

Yep.

If you already have the 357 puma, it should get the job done. Personally, if I had to choose, I'd take my 45 Colt Puma over my 357 Winchester. In fact, it was the gun I took on my first black bear hunt.

If you're looking to buy, I'd step up to a 44 mag or 45 colt. You shouldn't have any problems with either. One of my hunting partners took a 200 lb sow with his 44 this year. One shot with factory hornady xtp's.

If I was carrying a 357 I'd look for some 158gr hornady ammo. I personally like the lighter/faster bullet combo. since you reload, I'd look at setting the barnes 140gr bullets on top of a healthy charge of H110. In my limited experience, I think speed is your friend with the little lever-actions.

But, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Thanks minengr
you and one or two others actually answered the question I asked!
I have followed this "discussion" with interest. It has been entertaining if only because so many just write what they want others to believe, but do not stick to the original topic.
There have been many comments on this thread about "angry" bears or some such. Black bears around here are not considered by most people to be threats of "charges" or territorial behaviour. That seems to me more like grizzly behaviour, but that's only from what I've read, not personal experience. All the black bears that have caused problems for people that I personally know of were without exception small two year olds that were kicked off the teat and were starving. They get into trouble 'cuz they are hungry and are willing to eat anything. Sows with cubs I can nearly always avoid in the bush. Young hungry trouble makers I may not be able to avoid. But I will never face a "charge" from one, more likely an annoying series of camp raids, or possibly a slow determined stalk. But the reality is, I will only carry a "rambling rifle" that is truly useful to me, not for the one in a thousand chance that a bear I encounter is predatory to humans. So I will choose to carry a rifle outside of big game season that I can use to dispatch fur animals in traps, or for shooting small animals for food. That means a rifle that is light, handy, low maintenance and will not severely tear up meat or hides. Like my stainless Puma .357. If it has enough power to make me a little more comfortable in black bear country so much the better, but I will not buy a rifle solely for "bear protection" because I will never carry one for so remote a possibility. I am comfortable camping and hiking in the bush without carrying any firearm, so to me any rifle is better than none. I was simply asking for opinions and experience of the most effective .357 mag. rifle loads for large animals. Thanks for all your responses. I learned a lot!

Uncas wrote:




...................excuse me???? The gun shop i was at last week had tons of .357 ammo. His stock of .357 lever guns was very good as well from Puma's to Marlin's. I am a member of three rifle ranges in which i always see oodles of .357 brass on the ground. Please enlighten me why .357 ammo would be a no no here in Canada????

Castnblast, my experience with black bear is limited to two hunts in Ontario, so take it for what it�s worth. As I stated, the 357 wouldn�t be my first choice, but given your circumstances, it sure beats a pointed stick.

My only real caution would be your bullet selection. When I took my 45 last year I made a mistake in thinking I needed the heaviest bullet I could find. I tried to do too much with what I had. The end result was a bullet that didn�t expand and a bear that got away. Obviously, my bullet placement wasn�t what I thought it was, but to this day I still think I hit that bear right where I wanted. I checked the zero on the scope the next day and everything was fine. That�s why I�d recommend going with a bullet 158gr or lighter. I truly feel a lighter bullet traveling faster has the best chance for success.

Quickly consulting some reloading info here is a comparison. A 158gr Hornady XTP loaded with 19.0 gr of Lil�gun has a muzzle velocity of 1971 fps out of a 20� Marlin 1894. Now, out of a 20� 30-30 a 150gr Barnes with 34gr of w748 has a muzzle velocity of 2168. That�s almost apples to apples. Further research will probably show the 30-30 more favorable, but this is what I could find in five minutes. I would think many wouldn�t have a problem using a 30-30 on black bear. Now, I�m not saying a 357 is a 30-30, but with some careful reloading and testing, you can get close.

If you plan to start pushing the limits with the 357, I would suggest you purchase the Redding profile crimp die. It gives a nice roll crimp which I think is needed on hotter loads.

Are you also in the mining industry? Take into account this is coming from a MIN(ing)ENG(inee)R.

As always, that�s just my opinion and I could be wrong.

I actually do work for an engineering company, and even so, I value you opinion ;-)
I have some Lil' gun on hand, and some Hornady 158 XTP's and will give your suggestion a try.
I've been using the Lee factory crimp die. Is there any advantage to the Redding die over the Lee?

a safety iron for bears means stopping power up close and personal...
buy a cheap 12ga,make the barrel 20" and lose the plug.carry shot and slugs and yer covered for hunger and self defense.
My "bear blaster" cost $50,did the job for 9 yrs,and is ready to go today!

I don't have any experience with the .357 other than squeezing the trigger,but I do with bears in N Sk.and my suggestion is what served me well.
JMO

Interesting thread. Seems to me that few people here understand the dramatic difference between the performance of a 357 in a 4" handgun vs a carbine. A Carbine is where the round comes into it's own. I have to concure with the people that understand it's probably not the perfect round, but it's certainly not a dog when loaded with the proper ammo. Personally if that's what I was going to carry it would be with the Federal Premium 180 gr cast core bullets. Speed is only a partial part of the equation here but speed by itself doesn't result in penetration. A good bullet is more important when it comes to performance. I think I would prefer carrying a 44 Mag carbine or the 30-30 but I wouldn't feel unarmed as it were and I don't go into the bush with out a firearm. I'm hard pressed to think that People here believe that Phil Shoemaker believed that carrying a 357 would work for him but not for other people is really his point. Phil is a super guide and it certainly helps to understand bears but we are also talking grizzlys and black bears. If as you say the average black bear is under 200 # he's not superman or bullet proof.
Next there is a big difference in grizzlys and black bears in the way the approach people. Most black bear issues aren't high velocity attacks. They are more likely to be along the line of a bear that won't leave and is looking for an opportunity to take you down. No doubt in my mind I'd rather carry a 357 Mag Carbine with 180 grain Hard cast bullets than nothing at all. You must be a pretty assured woodsman.
Now if I had to go buy something to carry I'd go with a 44 Mag, 30-30 or 35 Rem but I'm glad to see you are taking something.

Shot placement is always key.
I would not have a problem using a 357 Carbine
for what you want to do.
I would use a 180-200 grain cast lead of softpoint, Not hollowpoints. It would be about as good as a 30-30 and
that is a good black bear gun.