Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Goats or llamas?

I enjoy getting back into the roadless areas to hunt deer and elk, where I can enjoy peace and quiet. At 46, I don't enjoy carrying a heavy pack - I'll do it; I just don't enjoy it. <P>I've been considering investing in a couple of goats or llamas. I can't justify buying horses and all of the expensive upkeep they require. <P>Any advice out there from someone who's tried both?

greggun,<P>I am in a similar situation due to a recent back injury that is leaving me in less than perfect shape with the posibility of heavy packs compounding my problem. I am currently deciding between 3 different breeds of dogs that will carry packs up to around 50 pounds; Newfie, Great Pyranees and Mastiff.

Well guys you have come to the right place. I have been packing with various stock for years and have quite a bit of experience using horses goats llamas and even have a few friends who tried dogs. <P>Those who had dogs that could carry big loads and then were uased at the various camp sites to protect the goats or llamas were are huge failure. Dogs will never work when expected to carry more then about 20-25 pounds and that will be a stretch when going more then 8-10 miles. The week link is that their feet become really beat up and they drink way too much water. The majority of trips when a dog was asked to pack a load they had trouble with their paws or toes. You must also pack more water for a dog then a human being which reduces they "cargo" weight by alot when you figure they have a 30 pound maximum for the largest breeds. I have sat through this debate a dozen times. Those folks who make the claims that a dog can pack 50 pounds ten miles must certainly be on smooth level trails with lots of water and in very cool temps. When those who pack like I do used them they were unpacked part way into the trip and could not pack again due to various problems. When the weights were reduced it was better but because of teh water and food needed fo fuel them they could not reliably pack anything for the owner. In most areas they must also be on a lead by law. That gets real old by the time you walk 3 miles much less ten. I have had these big breeds on trips with me where they did not pack anything and worked out fine, however the barking when game is spotted gets old, and the scent they put into the air to spook game was bad. Goats, llamas, and horse "scent" do not spook game like the scent of a dog. For hunting "pack dogs" just don't work out. At least not for me, or anyone I know who has tried them. <P>Horses are just not an option in the roughest of country, and the most expensive. I would have Mules over horses anyway most of the time.<P>Llamas are a great option and pack about what most people claim. They are great on the trail but must be led most of the time. They do OK crossing water and can do ten miles a day no problem. Most will weigh over 400 pounds and carry 75 comfortable. They tend to have an additude and are not as friendly as goats. I guess there are exceptions but being spit on by a llama is not my kind of companionship for a pack animal. <P>5 years ago I used my first goat. I wish I would have found them a long time ago! They are with out question the best packing animal if you cannot use a horse or mule. Or if you want to gain access to the most rugged of areas. I don't even know where to begin on why they are so good but let me say that they bond to you like a dog will, and they never need to be led on the trail. They will follow you anyplace you can go and do not need any food or water. They can go days without water even in brutal hot weather. I have packed them fully loaded 12 miles in a day and had them stand in water and not drink a drop! They do not need to have any food packed, they will browse on what ever they have in nature. <P>People will say they pack huge weights just like they do with the big breeds of dogs. However I will tell you the truth on this. I read and hear people say a goat will pack 60-65 pounds for you. Well that may be the case but not far or steep, nor will they on rugged ground.<P>On the most difficult steep vertical shale and rock slides I pack into, they carry about 40 pounds each and do not go fast. My goats are in as good of shape as is possible when doing this which last year meant packing hundreds of miles for me over the summer and spending just shy of 60 nights packing in the mountains with them. <P>When I pack on normal hiking trails that have a moderate elevation gain of 400-600 feet per mile they will pack 50 pounds no problem. This is for a goat that weighs 180 pounds or more only. My two biggest goats who are about 240 will pack 60 pounds but are not going to do it comfortably for 10 miles. maybe about 6-8 miles. I curently have 6 goats and can easily pack 300 pounds of gear. We usually take about 150 pounds of gear in per two people, and 300 plus out when we shoot something. <P>You cannot have only one goat, and I recommend no horns. They will butt heads with each other and can easily hurt you unintentnally with them. They are as gental as puppies and love to work for you. I look forward to trips with them every year now. <P>My oldest goat will be 6 years old in April and I have 2, 4 year olds a 2 year old and 2 that will be 1 this March.<P>All fit in back of my 4X4 Toyota pickup with side rails. The tack is very good especially the stuff I'm using now. The frames are aluminum and they use heavy duty zipperd bags. <P>There are pros and cons with different breeds. the smaller ones may only be limited to 30 pounds but will go 10+ miles. the bigger ones may pack 60 pounds but only travel 6 miles in a day. I like "Alpines" and "Oberhalsies" the best. They are about 175-200 lbs full grown and pack all day long if I want them to carrying 45-55 pounds for me. <P>I only wish I would have found these guys 20 years ago. The exploring I could have done in rough country would have been amazing.jj<p>[This message has been edited by JJHACK (edited February 04, 2001).]

I've packed non-commercially with horses, mules and burros in Montana, Wyoming, and in the Sierra. Pack animals can really open up the backcountry for you.<P>I'm assuming the original poster hasn't used pack animals much. If that's the case, the best advice is to try to talk with people in your area who are, and to try to go out with them to see how their animals work. Experiencing a number different animals would help you decide if you want to make the investment.<P>A great, but out-of-print, book on pack animals from dogs to draft horses is Dan<BR>Aadland's "Treading Lightly with Pack Animals: A Guide to Low-Impact Travel in the Backcountry." This book discusses pros and<BR>cons of all of the pack animal options. There are also many horse and mule packing books, my favorite is an old one by Joe Back.<P>Regarding llamas, one important consideration is that most of the horse and mule packers and riders you meet on the trail will not be happy to see you. Llamas either smell or look very strange to horses, and most horses are not used to them. Not that this should stop you, but you might end up needing a favor from a horse or mule packer in the backcountry someday. <P>If not too large for your needs, still another medium sized animal to consider are burros. The burros weigh from 600 to 750 and will carry loads of 150 or so for up to 15 miles at (people) walking speed. They go unshod over the rockiest trails. Burros are quite easy to work with, but like any of the larger animals you need to know a tricks about the easy way to do things. Like most pack animals, burros also go best if you have at least two of them. With two, you should be able to pack out an elk with work.<P>You can get burros for little money from the BLM, but for most of us this is a very expensive proposition because of the difficulty of training them. A better bet would be to find a pair of already broke-to-pack burros. Llama prices in our area seemed to have dropped considerably lately, and I imagine you would want to find some trained llamas too. I don't know about goat prices, and I'm curious about how biddable JJHack's goats are for packing - I have heard very good things about pack goats in general. <P>

JJ, what keeps these goats from becoming a snack for some critter?pak

pak, a 375 H&H. badger.

Thanks, folks. <P>JJHACK - Wow, you really make a strong case for goats! And it sounds like you've been around the corner with quite a few of the options. <P>Did you get your goats pack-trained, or did you do it yourself? Are there any books or websites you'd recommend? What kind of care and feed do they require?<P>I'll ask the same question someone asked above: Have you ever had a problem with predators deciding your goats were a meal?<P>bigram - You're right: No experience with pack animals. I've been hoofing it and carrying it my entire hunting life. I will of course talk with people who are using the animals which are options for me: llamas, burros and goats. I'm the kind of person who does an extraordinary amount of homework on these sorts of things. That's the fun of it. I'll see if I can get hold of a copy of Dan Aadland's book - thanks for the recommendation. Any websites you find useful?<P>Thanks, folks. This is just tremendously useful.

This is the top of the heap of pack goat web sites. they know me well there as I have worked with, bought tack or hiked with many of the people. They have all the answers. Several of them hike much more then I do with my goats.jj<BR><A HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/packgoat" TARGET=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/packgoat</A>

JJ- Thank you! You mentioned your oldest goat is 6 - what's the useful life of a good pack goat that gets used as much as yours do?<P>How much acreage do they require?<P>Thanks for the link. I'm registering with them tonight. <P>Regards, <BR>greggun

I know of goats packing that are 14 years old. They have a high risk life as a pack animal. There are several health related issues and arthritis which can be geneticly passed from generation to generation. I have been lucky an have only had to put down one goat in my life. I have 6 now but I have had as many as 13 at one time sorting out the best ones and selling off the others. I have only had one goat out of all of them that was worthless as a packer. He was never raised as a pack goat and I got him when he was 3 years old. He was friendly and sweet but would not pack and would wander off. A true trained pack goat will always bond with and follow his Human owner. <P>The biggest pack goat seminar in the USA will be in Idaho this August for a week. You can get the details from the web site. The best goat packing equipment Mfg is in Boise (George Bogdan of Owyhee pack goats)their are about a dozen great experienced pack goat breeders and equipment makers in Idaho. I would not even bother with any other tack, do it right the first time. My goats can jump with loaded packs on their saddles and they do not have anything come loose.<P>Hang out at the goat packing site a while they do have all the answers. There are a number of hunters with goats on that site as well but most are very "PC". Eidleweiss acres folks are also tops in experience with goats. Trust anything they say. Donna Samasko has about 30-40 goats and is a well known breeder. On Fridays they have goats for sale on that site as well. <P>If you expect to pack them this summer you will need goats at least 2 years old. I have about 3 acres fenced for my goats and suppliment their feed slightly with grass hay. They mostly browse on the property. I only need to suppliment them in winter for about 3 months. The rest of the year there is enough green for them to eat with out feeding them. My barn is 16X8 with a small 3foot wide door. If you get horned goats you will need more room in the barn. JJ

greggun,<P>I've never searched for any good websites for<BR>burro and other equine packing, but there must be many out there. I did come across <BR>Aadland's website (my search engine is not <BR>cooperating this morning). The US Forest Service has some good general publications on pack animals and low impact use. <P>Another good resource is a book by Smoke <BR>Elser (Packing Lightly, I think). It's a little more on the horse/mule side, but has <BR>some good stuff. I've heard that goats are particularly light on the land since you do not need to tie them at night - is this correct JJ? With the burros, it seems best to picket one or two with the rest roaming.<BR>The picketted burros do not tear things up like horses do. For our horses/mules, we carry a portable electric fence that has exceeded our expectations.

I have got to agree 100% with JJhack. I have been hunting the high country of Wyoming, Idaho and Utah with Pack goats for the last few years. They are my buddies goats, but I spent a lot of time bottle feeding them and breaking them in to more and more weight on their backs as they grew up. You can tie them up in the greenest grass on the hill and they will eat sticks and dried leaves. You can lead them into a cool mountain stream after a 3 day pack trip and they wont drink a drop. They bond with you like your own body oder. You can't get rid of them and they don't need to be lead or tied up, unless you actually want to sleep at night. Our first night on the mountain found 4 goats and two tired hunters all stuffed together in a 2 man tent. They are just like little kids and like to be RIGHT with you at all times. They want to see what you see and eat what you eat. Their favorite food is trail mix and granola. They will stop at NOTHING to get into your pack to eat every thing in your pack...and your pack. Tie them up down wind from your tent, because they burp and chew their cud ALL nigh and it isn't really all that pleasant of an oder. Believe me, it will keep you up at night. Let along the fact that you can hear them burping and grunting all night long. We had two of our biggest packers get the knots on their lead ropes untied the first night. Remember, they like to be RIGHT next to you? They decided to straddle us and cut loose with the urine gland (some call it the penis). Yup, my buddy and I were quickly awaked by the "rain storm" (goats peeing in our ears), then the hell storm started (goats pooping on our heads...). There is nothing like the smell of goat **** on your hunting clothes and in your hair, 4 miles from the nearest stream to wash it off in. It brings a new meaning to the word "cover scent". They are a lot of fun on trips. They keep it very entertaining. I found that watching and glassing in the direction the goats are staring is VERY productive in finding game. They don't miss a thing and have 10X vision. They also make fantastic decoys. I have actually had wild billy goats spar with our goats at 10,000 ft. I have pictures to prove it. I have had buck deer come up and touch noses with the goats trying to figure out what they are. I have had deer run hundreds of yards towards the goats, just to check them out. They are GREAT packing animals and will take you places you wish you hadn't gone. Flinch

Flinch your right about the decoy issue, I have had countless deer walk up to us and as long as I stood still the deer would investigate the goats for some time. As far as getting in the tent, well I tie a high line about 100 feet long between two trees and then snap each one to a loop tied in the line with a 6 foot lead rope and two swivels. This gives them a 12 foot circle to browse in and move around. They are very low impact and only browse a little from each plant or tree they come to. jj

Here is the link to the best Pack gear ever made for goats. This retired Boeing engineer has really figured it out. He is also an Avid packer and does a lot of work with his goats for the Idaho Fish and game stocking alpine lakes with fry packed in with his goats. Enjoy<P><A HREF="http://home.rmci.net/packgoat/" TARGET=_blank>http://home.rmci.net/packgoat/</A>

Well you goat herders got my attention. How do I get them in the Cub?pak

I can second (3rd?) JJ on the goats. They are the way to go. I've had to fall back on horses on account I can't keep them alive at my place. They are a favorite food of the local mt. lions. Plenty of cats where I hunt, but I've never had a problem out in the field, only with cats who were used to being around the small ranches.<P>I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, but you won't have to pack food or water for them typically. Big benefit over horses. I'd tie them up during the day while I hunted and let them roam at night. A properly attached goat will stick with you far better than your dog.<P>Like JJ, I had my best luck with Alpines and Obers.

JJ, bigram and flinch:<P>Thank you, thank you, thank you. <P>I've registered at the site you recommended, JJ. Boise in August - that's an easy drive from here, and I'm planning to be there.<P>Oh, what a change I see! Last year, my oldest son and I (he was fourteen at the time) carried two cow elk we'd shot the evening before out of a no-motorized-vehicles area. It was only two miles("only" being a relative term when it comes to carrying elk.)<P>I showed him how to quarter, skin and bone them on-site. And I was proud of him - he did a man's work, carrying his share on a packframe and never complaining. I think it was the first time I realized he was on the edge of becoming a man. <P>At the end of a very long day, when my head was hanging down in front of the steering wheel, when we were dirty, bloody and tired (isn't it great, in a way people who don't hunt can never understand?), when we'd been quiet for a long time, he said, "Dad, that was cool." My heart swelled with pride, but honestly, I didn't know at that point if I had the energy to drive home.<P>JJ, Bigram and Flinch, you have shown me the light. Thank you. I hope all your hunts hold miracles to remember.<P>Best regards, <BR>Greggun

gregun, The goats are not all fun and games, you will certainly have goats that are fantastic and goats that are just "OK" be patient and get as many as you can handle sorting out the best two or three. I never intended to have more then 2 and I have six, I had 13 at the peak. I now have a group I would put against anybodys for packing. <P>Hang out at the web site I gave you it is the greatest wealth of information available. Email George Bogdan let him know who you are what your intrests are and he will help you find some good goats in Idaho. Buy only his tack it works 100% the other stuff is good but will come loose and/or bind. I did a lot of research on Georges tack for him and he modified it everytime we saw a problem. The Tack he has will not fail you ever. I have had goats jump 8 feet over water and nothing comes loose. I have had them climb straight up and go straight down with nothing coming loose. Don't get poor tack it will come loose and drive you crazy. The great thing about goats is how agile they are and how many places they go. Along with that they can be hard to keep the gear on without good tight fitting and non-binding tack.jj<p>[This message has been edited by JJHACK (edited February 06, 2001).]

Let them develop their own pecking order and DON'T vary that order in any way when packing them, or you will have a CONSTANT rodeo in the hills. Don't beat them or you will catch a horn up the rear end when you aren't looking. They are VERY strong willed, but pussy cats if you treat them good. We have had the best luck with Alpines as well. Let them know who's boss, but don't take it to expremes, like most dog owners do (I would like to treat a couple of dog owners the way they treat their dogs...beat them silly!). Our goats just developed asdoueudhaelsuoehe (I don't know how to say it, let alone spell it), which is a desease that develops pusy cists all over the animal. It is contageous to humans and has no cure. The cists had not ruptured yet, so we are ok, but we had to put all our goats down. We are goatless right now. It is not a happy day. They have served us well. Dang it, nothing seems to go my way sometimes. They have been GREAT companions and I will miss them sorely. Flinch

Flinch, you kind of stopped me cold with the pusy cist disease. Can you elaborate on this disease? How common, is it easy to discover prior to it infecting humans..etc? I have a neck problem and the goats were sounding like a good solution to carrying more stuff.pak