Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns .327 Federal Magnum ...... Any good rumors?

What is the future of this round? If this has been discussed previously - I apologize because I missed the other thread/s.

Was looking at the .30 Carbine and .30/20 T/C for potential single-shot rifle rounds and my attention turned to the .327 Federal Magnum that is almost as long as the .30 Carb and operates at even greater pressures (45K versus 40K for the .30C).

Upon further consideration the .327 Mag looks like it would make a dandy revolver round (as well as single-shot round) - and hopefully in something besides a "tank" of a gun like an SP101.

I like the SP101 and bought one for my mother! But its still pretty heavy.

Is Ruger going to possibly offer their Single-Six in .327 Mag? What about another run of Single-Six's in .32/20 with a .327Mag cylinder? (like Ruger did @20 years ago with a .32H&R / .32/20 combo Single Six?).

What about other companies other than Charter Arms? And Ruger?

Has anyone heard anything? Thanks!

If the .327 doesn't find its way into other guns, it just won't survive. And honestly, in my opinion the gun it really needs to find its way into is something made by S&W. Like it or not, S&W is the revolver world leader.

Taurus is a very innovative company and is usually quick to adopt new ideas; I'm very surprised they haven't jumped on this cartridge.

Personally, I'd like to see a S&W Scandium L frame 8 shot .327 with a 5" barrel. I'd also like to see a Single Six Bisley in 4 3/4" preferably in stainless.

If you don�t want a �tank� of a gun you don�t need a Buckeye Blackhawk or a .30 Carbine Blackhawk, both revolvers are pretty heavy.

I bought a 4� Charter Arms Patriot in .327 Federal. The Patriot is similar to the 4� S&W Kit Gun. It is not up to S&W quality but it appears to be a serviceable field gun. The front sight is pretty poor due to its smooth surface and it is stainless in color which is a poor finish for a field gun.

I like the S&W Kit Guns and beleieve a 5" Kit Gun would be a good gun but I do not want any ultra lightweight handguns, they are hard for me to shoot well in the field. I have an S&W 317 Airlite and find it too light to do my best field shooting with.

45,000 psi out of a little stubby barrel? Whoooeeee! The 7 1/2" barreled Ruger .30 Carbine Blackhawk has a reputation for having about the nastiest and ear piercingest muzzle blast around. I'm not sure I'd want to try 5K psi more in 5" less barrel.

If a fellow wants something larger than a .22 but doesn't want to go up to a whole hog .44 or .45, a good old S&W J-frame .38 Special has been a very effective trail gun for years and years. 148 gr wadcutters at moderate velocity, and very moderate muzzle blast, kill small game like rabbits really well. Even 158 gr. SWC +P loads aren't all that unpleasant to shoot.

Smith made that 3" M60 with full lug barrel and adjustable sights in .38 Special for a while, that's what I would call a great little trail gun. Now it only comes in .357 which is fine for concealed carry self defense but too much for my tastes in a fun gun.

Bought a girlfriend that .38 M60 for a birthday present about 20 years ago. Don't miss her but sure do wish I had kept that revolver for myself.

Thanks ALL, for your replies. I should have pointed out that I'm not a handgun aficiando, but defintely appreciate the use for a HG.

And if I needed a trail gun in bear country I'd carry a .45C, or .357M Security Six if I wanted something more compact (when fishing or in camp).

I had no need for a .32/20 or .32H&R before learning about the .327Mag. Just thought the .327Mag would justify another pride and joy if I'm already experimenting with that round in a Handi-Rifle or Encore.

I agree an ultra-light weight pistol isn't necessary in that round, but remember a 5 1/2" Super Single-Six combo a friend had in .32H&R / .32-20. Maybe a fellow can find a used Single-Six .32-combo and have an additional .327Mag cylinder custom-made.

In addition the point about the round needing to be chambered by other gun-makers is a critical one for the .327Mag to gain a following. I recall the .348W, .350RM and 6.5mmRM (and other cartridges) all fell by the wayside because they weren't [initally] adopted by other makers than their proprietary companies.

william

what ammo have you shot through it. my sp101 kicks like a mule with the 115 grain Gold Dot but is great with the 85 grain HydraShok.

accuracy is probably good but I've hot shot it further than 30' ret.

thanks

stub,

i pretty well agree with the other comments. my personal preference for the .327 is a s&w mp340 type six-shooter, a 3" model 60 type and a 5" model 60 type.

the sp101 is too heavy for concealed carry. mine also shoot to the left with the rear sight centered. to hit center at 30', i have to have the rear sight adjusted as far to the right as possible.

thanks,

I have shot the 115- and the 85-grain loads in the Charter. My gun has a rather large rubber grip and the 4� barrel. Recoil is very manageable. My wife found the Charter quite pleasant to shoot with both loads. Interesting how a bigger grip and 1� of barrel calms things down.

Edit] I sjould have also pointed out the charter has a rather large diameter barrel and cylinder with thick walls. This adds a bit to the mass and tames recoil. I posted some pictures of the Charter and the S&W .32 H& Mag. Kit Gun side by side on the beartooth forum.]

Neither one of us is a renowned pistol shot but from bags the little gun will shoot inside 4� at 25 yards and this is not quite a good as our SSX Bisley in .32 H&R Magnum. The rear sight notch is just a bit too narrow for the front sight and the front sight is smooth, brushed stainless steel. The front sight would be much better if it were a pinned blued steel sight with serrated back side. Sight black does not help enough to give a really good sight picture. The 115-grain load put its bullets just above the point of aim at 25-yards and we have made no sight adjustments.
The extractor rod on the Charter Arms is just a bit short to fully extract the cases. This is not a problem on a field gun but I would not be happy about this on a self defense gun.

The 327 Federal shoots the Lyman 311008 115-grain bullet very well over a good dose of Lil� Gun. The new cartridge compares very favorably with the .32-20 handgun.
Perhaps some of the insiders know, I wonder if Charter Arms has shooters on staff at their headquarters. The Patriot is very close to being a very good handgun right from the box. There are just a few small things that are not right and a handgun hunter or silhouette shooter could have pointed these things out to them on the first outing with the handgun. The lockwork has a different feel from the S&W Kit Gun but it is not really objectionable. The little gun is a good value but will require some finishing to make a hunting gun.

William, what did you have to change on your 4in Charter-piece to make it a better "hunting gun?"

I went to the Charter site and that 4in model is good looking enough, although "looks" never guarenteed quality in functionability and dependability. Still, if the price is right I'd very much like to try one of those.

I am trying one of several different flat black paints for the front sight. The frosted and smooth finish of the sight causes it to disappear in strong sunlight. Using a spot light the sight blends into the white light.
The ramp will benefit from serrations and I�ll try to get that done this winter.

What needs to be done is to have the sight cut off and a blue steel sight pinned in its place.

The trigger needs some work but it is useable right out of the box. It has a light gritty feel to it. For double action use (not required for this gun) it seems to be stacking a spring under finger pressure. The double action feel is different from an S&W or Ruger so I am giving this a chance to grow on me.

I think the extractor rod needs to be a little longer but it is useable.

Overall it is a pretty nice handgun. I have considered writing to Charter Arms but I wonder if it is worth the effort.

I wondered how good that front blade is, or isn't it sounds!

Your other comments are interesting (and noted), too.



Thanks for your reply, William. BTW, are you into single-shot or lever-rifles? If so, how do think the .327M would do for a foraging and SG round in a long-gun?

The rifles are what I am really interested in. We have a 24� .32 H&R Magnum TC barrel we bought a number of years ago. This rifle is really a lot of fun. We got the full bull barrel and the TC is a self opener with the added weight out front. Just trip the guard and the barrel opens. This is a .308� barrel and it shoots the 110-grain spitzers very well. For small game and called critters you don�t shoot a lot and the long barrel is quite quiet in a ground blind.

We also have a Marlin 1894 in .32 Magnum and it is quite a bit of fun to shoot. I load the Lyman 311008 exclusively in this rifle and it feeds and shoots it very well. I put the Marbles copy of the Sourdough front sight on it and the XS peep rear sight because the receiver is unfortunately not drilled for a receiver sight. This is a BIG error on the part of Marlin but we appear getting away from making guns that are useful for anything except a scope sight.
The newer William receiver sight uses the rear scope mount base holes to mount a sight which hangs over the rear of the receiver and interferes with cocking the hammer. I don�t thing very highly of this �improvement.�

A .32 Magnum rifle is very useful for the small game hunter. The 85- or 90-grain bullets at 1,150 fps or so are good killers without tearing things up too badly. For heavier bodied critters the 110- and 115-grain bullets are better killers. An LBT bullet is the way to go as we run out of case room with the heavier bullets when seated to work through the action.

Since we were discussing the Charter Arms Patriot here is a link to two pictures of the CA next to the S&W 4� M631. The CA sure has a thicker barrel and cylinder walls.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=47667

I really like what I've read about the .327, would love to see a few more offerings. I have a Ruger SS6 in .32 mag, a .327 added to the stable would be a nice addition. The Ruger SP would be nice, but I have not been able to find one. And I REFUSE to buy ANY S&W.

William, its interesting that you would mention the .308-caliber T/C barrels in .32 H&R! T/C offers similar barrels in .32/20 and .30 Carb too.

I hope to get an Encore barrel in the .32 H&R and re-chamber to the .327M, and also a .30 Carb bbl - both for my own R&D.

Question: What do you think William, would be the optimum barrel-length for the .327 Magnum? And even the .30 Carbine? (best cartridge efficiency, maximum velocity, etc.)

I'm aware you mentioned the 24inch .32H&R bbl with 110grn spitzers is fairly quiet, but ignoring that benefit for a moment - What is the shortest bbl-length for best efficiency for these straight-walled .32 H&R/.327Mag cartridges?

Example; The .22Long Rifle is "best" around 14-16inches. Of course the .327M or .32 H&R can be legally used in either a T/C rifle or handgun with the appropriate stock.

Thanks!

It looks to me like the �ideal� barrel length for the .327 will be between 16� and 18�.
I am figuring this pretty rough but it looks like the .327 Federal loaded with the Lyman 311008 (115-grain) bullet jas a water capacity of about 9.8 grains. It looks like the expansion ratio on the 16� barrel is about 17.8 and a rough figure of the cartridge loaded with 9.0 grains of Alliant 2400 would produce about 176 fps per grain of powder.
The 18� barrel has an approximate expansion ratio of 21.1 and would produce about 179 fps per grain of powder.
The 24� barrel has an approximate expansion ratio of 26.7 and extimates out at 184 fps per grain of powder.
This is just a rough extimate and a slower burning powder would change things.It still appears to me that anything over 18� will not provide a serious benefit. The expansion ratio calls for a slower powder ad with the TC barrel you can seat the bullets well out and use a powder more appropriate to the barrel length. I use the 24� barrel for called varmints and this helps to reduce muzzle flash at night and noise in enclosed blinds.
An advantage of the 24� bull barrel is its ease of opening, when the trigger guard is tripped the barrel drops.

Wow, that's a fairly precise answer! Which I appreciate!

Thank you William.

I figured the optimum .327Mag bbl-length would be between 16 and 19 inches, easily over 14in. I can see having that 24in T/C bbl cut at 18in and probably leave it there.

For a general all-around boolit weight in a rifle or handgun I would try to develop a .327-load with a boolit similar to what you've listed - or maybe as heavy as 120-122grns but no heavier. What do you think are the ultimate rifle and pistol powders for the .327 mag?

Also - if you don't mind me asking, have you also had experience with the .357 Maximum? If so what do you think is the optimum bbl-length for that round in a rifle or T/C handgun? (using a 180 or 200grn boolit, [b]I'm guessing between 18 and 20in) I've been bitten by the bug to make the .357Maxi a mini-express deer-round - not an original idea I discovered on several other boards!

Other rounds I'm also curious about (if you care to comment on them include the .358 Winchester (same bullet weights), .308 Winchester (168 and 180grn weights), and the .30-30 WCF.[/b]

How do you calculate "expansion ratio?" And use that info to generate your data?

Thank you!

Expansion ratio is the simply the number of times the powder gas will expand by the time the base of the bullet reaches the muzzle. Expansion ratio affects how high a velocity is obtainable with a given cartridge case and barrel length. I am not looking for high velocity but rather cartridges with high expansion ratio and lower muzzle pressure as they tend to have less muzzle flash and less perceived noise.
A lot of people know a lot more about this than I do but in general terms you can say the lower the expansion ratio the less efficient a cartridge is � which means very little in the grand scheme of things. Because current rifle barrels are all about the same length the larger cartridge cases, having a lower expansion ratio, will be able to generate higher velocities because they have more propellant. So we have the less efficient cartridges generating higher velocities because the barrels are generally the same length.
When the expansion ratio gets up around 10 we have lowered the muzzle pressure quite a lot and this helps to quiet the rifle/cartridge combination down a bit which helps if you are shooting critters from a blind or shooting in pairs with one observing or handling a night light near the muzzle. I have a Marlin 1894 in .32 Magnum also and both it and the TC Carbine qualify as �low intensity� for a calling or walking around rifle.
I have never seen the Quick Load software but I understand this is the program to use today. I am using the Powley Computer (slide rule) and have the math entered in my computer for quicker calculations. Good software is the way to go for selecting a powder/bullet weight combination.

I shoot a 21� 357 Maximum Contender carbine barrel. This is one of my favorite TC barrels as it is a low recoil cartridge with good killing power for deer and pigs. I use the 180-grain LBT bullets and I also have the NEI 190-grain No. 161A mold which is a wonderful bullet in the .357 Maximum and .357 Magnum rifles barrels. I also shoot the 200-grain RCBS gas check bullet in the Maximum with excellent results. 21� seems to be a good length for the Maximum.
For jacketed bullets the 200-grain Hornady Spire Point is a good bullet from the rifle barrel. You will not get a large amount of expansion but the nose does flatten out and the bullet penetrates well. The 180-grain Remington JHP pistol bullet works very well on deer but if you hit a shoulder with the Remington bullet at close range it will ruin a lot of meat � funny how bullets kill by disrupting tissue and we criticize them when the do a good job.

I shoot a 14� .357 Herrett and would like to have David White install one of his barrel extending muzzle brakes so I could use the barrel for a carbine.

The rimmed cartridges are the way to go in the Contender and Encore if you intend to hunt in cold weather. I am not talking about temps in the freezing range but temperatures in the teens and lower. Gloves and rimless cartridges are a problem in the Contender. We have used the Lestherman tool, pliers and a can opener with a slot cut in it and all are a compromise while wearing gloves in cold weather.
We have a 24� .300 Whisper barrel with an ejector installed and this is a good option for cold weather hunting. My father used this barrel around Fairbanks for several years with good results. The easy opening longer barrel and ejector allowed him to work with the rimless cases in relative comfort down to -20 degrees.

The .32 H&R Magnum in a rifle is not a Whisper cartridge but it is close. We have used bullets as heavy as 160-grains in the rifle barrel but bullets of 125-grains and less are more useful to us and I like the 115-grain cast bullets best. For called critters I would like to try one of Veral Smiths Ogival Wadcutter molds in the .32 Magnum and the .327 Federal.

My thoughts on ideal powders for the .327 Federal in a rifle barrel are Hodgdon Lil� Gun. If you need other options Winchester 296/Hodgdon 110 and IMR 4227 are good second choices. I am certain there are V.V. and A.A. powders that meet the need also. The main factor in selecting Lil� Gun is it is the best powder that is readily available.

I also shoot the 30-30AI, 308 Marlin Express, 307 Winchester and the 356 Winchester in the lever action rifles. The three .30 caliber cartridges are roughly in the same power category. I believe 22� is an ideal barrel length for them although I only have the 308 ME in the 22� length. The 30-30AI is a very good cartridge but the 308 ME renders it obsolete � no need to trade one off but if I were looking for a �new-to me� cartridge I would select the 308ME. The 308 ME is an easier cartridge case to work with and that reason alone is enough to select it over the 30-30AI.
The .307 Winchester is just a little better cartridge for the single shots but not by much. In the lever action rifles the superiority of the pointy LeveRevolution bullet does not come into play until will we reach 220- to 240-yards and that is quite aways out there.
The Marlin 308MX rifle is in production and the Winchester Big Bore is not � that sort of settles the selection matter.

I like the 356 Winchester and enjoy loading for, shooting and hunting with it. I have to admit I have experienced quicker kills on white tail deer when using the 307 Winchester but I have not lost a deer when using either cartridge. In fairness to the 356 I used the 220-grain Speer bullet quite a bit and this bullet was a bit too tough for our deer. Switching to the 200-grain round nose bullets or using the RCBS 200-grain gas check bullet I experienced quicker kills with the 356.
We have a Savage 99 in 358 Winchester and there is no difference between the two cartridges when loading for lever action rifles. I use the 225-grain Sierra in the Savage rifle but have not taken a shot at game where the pointy bullet was an advantage. In an Encore barrel I would prefer the 356 for its rim.

Don�t overlook the 444 Marlin and the 375 Winchester as both of these cartridges perform well in the lever action rifles and in the Contender.
Believe it or not I have experienced excellent results on meat deer (about 120 pounds and less) using the bulk Remington 240-grain JSP bullets in the 444 Marlin. I am using a 17 �� Winchester Timber rifle and this combination works very well in ground blinds and when sitting under a cedar bush at a water tank.
The 310-grain Lee gas check bullet is another good bullet but the 270-grain Speer Gold Dot JSP may be the all around best bullet.

I am about the only person who thinks so but the 375 Winchester with the 200-grain Sierra JSP is an ideal combination for deer and pigs. The 200-grain Sierra bullet is tough and penetrates very well.
I also like the now discontinued Lee 255-grain bevel base cast bullet. Cast between 14- and 18- BHN this bullet does well on deer and pigs. I have never read of anyone else using this bullet but it is a good one for both accuracy and hunting.

I live in a rather dry area so our deer are pretty easy to hunt around the water tanks. Any of the cartridges mentioned kill deer and pigs very well. I know several people (three I can think of at the moment) who hunt with the 7-30 waters and I have seen them do some remarkable shooting with the cartridge in lever action rifles and with the Contender.

I got a little wordy here and these are just opinions. There are other people with more experience than I have with these cartridges as my hunting with them has been in Texas where the game is on the lighter side.
I enjoy playing with the Pawley computer and working the math. Lloyd Brown ells book: �Firearms Pressure Factors� is great for passing a few cold winter nights by the fire � if you enjoy math.

No you didn't! Thank you Slim, for a great series of posts and shared personal-info! I love gun-gack and solid hard data and info. You've given me much to think about.

I'm not a levergun-fan, but I certainly like single-shots! The NEF Handi-Rifles as well as T/C's. (if I did acquire leverguns - they would be Marlins or BLR's in .308 or .358)

We haven't discussed the .45C in a rifle, nor the .45/70. Plus I agree the .375Win is a sleeper many folks have ignored. I'm still "procuring" - but I have wondered if a Ruger #1 or customized #3 in .45/70 might become a preferred hunting rifle for anything under 200yds. Richard