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I am getting a little nervous reading this thread. In my .350 Rem Mag, I am loading 60.0 gr of R15 under a 225 gr Woodleigh. Never checked the velocity out of my custom shop model 7. Opinions on this load? It is very accurate, but who cares if it is not safe.


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I have been shooting 57 grains of RL15 with the speer HC 250. My whelen has a 26 1/2" shilen barrel and I get @ 2550 fps. I tried to work up to 59.5 but it wasn't happening, to much pressure.I have over 1000 rounds of this load thru this gun and no problems. I have used fed,rem,and winchester brass without any change in velocity and some of these cases have been loaded eight times without any trouble.One difference with my load is the OAL. I'm running longer than the books call for and this might have a small effect.


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Sakoluvr My 5th edition of Nosler does not even list RL15 for the 350 Rem. Mag under the 225 Partition. The fastest load they list is
W748 59 grs. @ 2700 fps. Next would be IMR4320 60grs. @ 2640. They
also noted that the W748 load was the most accurate load tested.
This was 22" barrel and OAL of 2.800" Hope this may be of use to you. Cheers NC


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Have you guys seen this data?

http://35cal.com/loading.html#660


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Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
Have you guys seen this data?


Uh, I just looked at the data you reference. I consider it way over maximum and the man's loading practices ill-conceived. I advise everyone reading this to steer very clear of thhis data.

Here is a note that appears next to one of the loads on the site:

"near top load
significant case head expansion (.511/.531) but no ejector slot imprint yet"

From this note it is obvious that this man has no clue of the definition of "case head expansion." The 0.020" of expansion he experienced is probably measured on the pressure ring of the case body, not the head. True case head expansion of 0.020" would indicate astronomical pressure. According to the Speer reloading manual #13, actual case head expansion of 0.0003" to 0.0005" in once-fired cases indicates pressure in the neighborhood of 60,000 PSI. Yes, my decimal places are in the correct positions.

And then we have the statement, "but no ejector slot imprint yet." An imprint of the ejector slot in the headstamp of a case indicates the brass is flowing back into the slot due to astronomical pressure. If the man typically adds powder to his loads until he sees this imprint, he is flirting with disaster - even death. Just because it is easy for handloaders to overload their ammo does not make it wise.

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Actually, with one make of belted brass I have seen .020" of case expansion on the belt with FACTORY loads. This brass is obviously a lot softer than some others, but it held up fine.

This is also why the case-head method of pressure-guessing is kind of insane, especially given that most of us have a far better tool for the job these days, namely the chronograph.


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John, have you any plans on doing an article on the .350 mag, similar to the one you did on the .358 Win?


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I have seen that guys data before and would not even consider it safe if fired in the next county. He seems to think that if some is good more is better and too much is just enough! Be careful out there. BTW your decimal points ARE in the correct place. smile Bear


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Actually, with one make of belted brass I have seen .020" of case expansion on the belt with FACTORY loads. This brass is obviously a lot softer than some others, but it held up fine.

This is also why the case-head method of pressure-guessing is kind of insane, especially given that most of us have a far better tool for the job these days, namely the chronograph.


Good Morning John. I agree. With out a chronograph I just don't know what I would do. They are the greatest thing sine sliced bread. Bear


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Actually, with one make of belted brass I have seen .020" of case expansion on the belt with FACTORY loads. This brass is obviously a lot softer than some others, but it held up fine.


It is true that case heads expand more on the first firing than on subsequent firings at the same pressure, and belted case heads tend to expand more than non-belted case heads. It also appears to be true that some people don't understand how or where to measure case head expansion, and given the knowledge to do so may lack the dexterity.

The truth is that 0.020" of actual case head expansion, correctly measured, on once-fired brass, is indicative of a problem, and most likely extremely high pressure.

-


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I recall the RL-15 Alliant data, which has been repeated in this cartridge, even using magnum primers at the 59.5 gr. charge; the late Finn Aagaard used it in Handloader. Of course, he hit the published VELOCITY for the 250 gr. bullet.

In two particular 35's I've toyed with, 56gr. of RL-15 has been max over 3 lots and 15-20 lbs of that powder with 5 diff 250 gr bullets.

One should also note RL-22 charges for the 338 Win.and all bullets listed in that manual. I have hit those speeds, but NEVER those charges!

Agree with JB (big shock) use your chronograph. If you are getting speeds not published in ANY manual, better put on a welding mask when you shoot....the last imprint may not be on cartridge brass.

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Federal or Wby?

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I just purchased a 35 whelen in 700 CDL, 5 pounds of RL-15, and a bunch of 250 gr boolits, so I'm quite interested in this discussion. I found a link to the 2005 alliant data for 35 whelen on Steve's pages (http://stevespages.com/zip/alliant_reloading_manual.zip)
if anyone cares to look.

I suppose I'll work up as normal, but start a little lower than I might've with the older data. Once I find a sweet spot with powder weight I'll start tweaking OAL.

The same thing happened with my 300win data from Barnes 3 to 4. Barnes 4 would make me 3 grains over max with RL-22 but no pressure signs are evident.

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I'm wondering? Remington not too long ago brought out the M750 semiautomatic rifle in .35 Whelen. Could the "downloading" be to make loads that won't beat that rifle up?
heck, remington 250 gr. bullet ammo has never come anywhere near the advertised velocity in my three rifles. The two factory guns, one Remington 700 Classic and one Ruger M77 RS will only barely reach 2250 FPS and my custom Mauser about 2325 FPS with Remington's factory loads.
I've never been able to reach Alliant's 59.5 gtr. charge of RL-15 either.
OH well. I just loaded up a test series with RL-15 and the 225 gr. Barnes TSX. I haven't had a chance to shoot them yet, but hopefully sometime this week end.
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PJ, how many grains did you load up to? Post your results when you get a chance to shoot.


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Originally Posted by HawkI
I recall the RL-15 Alliant data, which has been repeated in this cartridge, even using magnum primers at the 59.5 gr. charge; the late Finn Aagaard used it in Handloader. Of course, he hit the published VELOCITY for the 250 gr. bullet.

In two particular 35's I've toyed with, 56gr. of RL-15 has been max over 3 lots and 15-20 lbs of that powder with 5 diff 250 gr bullets.

One should also note RL-22 charges for the 338 Win.and all bullets listed in that manual. I have hit those speeds, but NEVER those charges!

Agree with JB (big shock) use your chronograph. If you are getting speeds not published in ANY manual, better put on a welding mask when you shoot....the last imprint may not be on cartridge brass.


Actually, Aagaard wrote in HANDLOADER, No. 184 (December/'96) for the first time on the 35 Whelen in an article entitled "Medium Bores/.338-06 vs. .35 Whelen".

In it, 5 loads were tested at 3.29" using RL-15: 225 Sierra BT (61grs) at 2719 fps; 225 NP (60grs) at 2715 fps; 225 Barnes X (60grs)at 2690 fps; 250 NP (59.5grs)at 2600 fps; and 250 Barnes X (59grs)at 2602 fps, all from his 22" built on a 98 Mauser action. His comment re pressure was: "I used no charges in excess of those found in a loading manual, nor did I tolerate the slightest hint of excess pressure...". 3 other loads were referenced: a 200gr Rem handload using XMR 2015 and 2 factory loads.

In a later HANDLOADER, No.199, he compared the 35 Whelen (along with other cartridges)to the 9.3X62 in penetration tests. The 250gr NP was toned down in that contest to 2504 fps but the load was not given. cool

Also, Layne Simpson in Rifle, No. 105, gave a comparison between the .338-06 and the .35 Whelen. His Whelen was a custom 22". The 250 NP was not in production, nor was RL-15 at the time. But one of his loads for the 250 Speer, using N-204 (65grs,)was MOA and MV was 2648 fps! shocked I've duplicated that with my 35 Whelen, employing the 250 Hor. SP and RL-15. But it couldn't be done using the 250 NP. The best the NP could do with RL-15 was 2500 fps. frown

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I was mostly reacting at first not to the exact charge the guy in quextion was using, but his muzzle velocity, close to 2700 fps with the Nosler Partition, which indicates WAY too warm a load for the .35 Whelen.

The Partition tends to create higher pressures than the Hornady Interlock of the same caliber and weight, mostly because of longer bearing surface but also because the Partition tends to "bump up" then the rear core is booted by expanding powder.

So I looked up Nosler's own data for the 250 Rl-15 in the .35 Whelen and found 53.0 grains as maximum, for a muzzle velocity of over 2500 fps. This is when I suggested the guy's load might be a little hot. It might not be with a Hornady Interlock.


Thanks for the clarification. What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I also use a chronograph as a diagnostic tool and I'd agree that there is no such thing as "free" velocity. I've never had a 250 grain .35 Whelen load hit 2600 fps and I've only used Hornady or Speer 250 grain bullets. With my "medium-medium" .35 Whelen launching a 250 grain bullet a 2550 fps or so I can't imagine what more I'd want from it.


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I have a bunch of 250 grain Speers loaded over the 59 grain chg of RL-15. My custom mauser sems to like the load.
That being said, I think I will only shoot it in cool weather, and when the batch I have is done, I will see how much velocity a 57 grain load will give me.
I get just under 2600 FPS with the 59 grains.
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57 grains should get around 2500.

We can usually predict what velocity a minor change in powder charge will bring by dividing the "new" charge by the old charge, then multiplying the original velocity with the result. Thus 57/59 = .996 x 2590 ("almost" 2600) = 2502.

This formula works very closely with single-based powders, not quite as well with double-based. But it is generally pretty close with minor charge variations.

One thing that may be going on is that all powders do vary somewhat from lot to lot. I went down to Charlie Sisk's shop in Texas a few years ago and we ran a bunch of pressure/velocity tests. One of the rifles we used was my CZ 9.3x62, and we tested some of the loads I normally use. At that time one of these was 62 grains of RL-15 and the 250-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (now the 250 AccuBond). Everything was identical in the load we tested, except Charlie's lot of RL-15. It took two more grain of powder to equal the velocity I got with my batch of RL-15.

This sort of lot-to-lot variation isn't uncommon. Add that to using a different bullet that might very well create different pressures, and it's no wonder that sometimes data can vary 5 grains or more between different sources of data.

We did confirm, though, that velocity is the best predictor of pressure for the average handloader.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
57 grains should get around 2500.

We can usually predict what velocity a minor change in powder charge will bring by dividing the "new" charge by the old charge, then multiplying the original velocity with the result. Thus 57/59 = .996 x 2590 ("almost" 2600) = 2502.

This formula works very closely with single-based powders, not quite as well with double-based. But it is generally pretty close with minor charge variations.

One thing that may be going on is that all powders do vary somewhat from lot to lot. I went down to Charlie Sisk's shop in Texas a few years ago and we ran a bunch of pressure/velocity tests. One of the rifles we used was my CZ 9.3x62, and we tested some of the loads I normally use. At that time one of these was 62 grains of RL-15 and the 250-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (now the 250 AccuBond). Everything was identical in the load we tested, except Charlie's lot of RL-15. It took two more grain of powder to equal the velocity I got with my batch of RL-15.

This sort of lot-to-lot variation isn't uncommon. Add that to using a different bullet that might very well create different pressures, and it's no wonder that sometimes data can vary 5 grains or more between different sources of data.

We did confirm, though, that velocity is the best predictor of pressure for the average handloader.


Did you use the same chrono, or did you use Mr. Sisk's? I am assuming (I know, I know) that there is a difference, minor though it may be, in different clocks.


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