Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Military Yet another Vet on Kerry

Dear Mr. Kerry
Jay Bryant
March 3, 2004

Because it was not my lot to serve in Vietnam, I have no qualifications to criticize those who did. But John Kerry has been running on his war record in a vastly more blatant way than previous candidates have done (George Bush the Elder, for example, or Bob Dole), he has opened the door for those who are qualified to express their views on his Vietnam record � both while he was there and after he returned.

One man with exceptional qualifications in that regard is retired Army Col. Glenn Lackey, who also knows something about life in the verbal combat zone known as Capitol Hill, where he served a stint as Chief of Staff for a Member of Congress.

Before that Lackey not only spent combat time in Vietnam, but also in Somalia and the Gulf War.

Recently, Lackey decided to express his thoughts on Kerry's public record, and being a very direct kind of guy, did it directly, by writing the following letter to Kerry, which I thought might interest readers of this space:

Dear Mr. Kerry;

After spending only four months in the country of Vietnam, you testified before Congress in 1971 with these exact words about incidents you say you witnessed: "They personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blew up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Viet Nam."

Spread that on a farmer's field where it will do some good. I spent a year there in 1968-69 in a combat arms unit. I was a Field Artillery Forward Observer in an Infantry company and I saw combat every day until I was wounded. When I returned from the hospital, I was assigned to an artillery battery. I saw brave men fight and die; I saw brave, good men pass out all their rations to hungry kids, build churches and schools, donate to orphanages, cry silently at the sight of villagers slaughtered by North Vietnamese, but I never saw anything approaching the war crimes that you happened to witness as your boat sped by villages on the river bank. If you witnessed atrocities and did not report them, you are guilty of aiding and abetting. If you lied, you are simply unfit for leadership at any level. The most serious incident I witnessed was a young sergeant who grabbed the arm of a Vietnamese woman during a village search. An older, more experienced noncommissioned officer knocked the sergeant to the ground and told him, somewhat forcefully, that that woman was someone's mother and would be treated with respect. That's it, Kerry, that's my confession - I didn't report the incident.

I have children, and my children have children. They will, perhaps, stumble upon your words, much as one might stumble upon a pile of dog droppings. I do not relish the thought of having to explain that your "experiences" are either a bald-faced lie, or you belong to that less-than-1% of Viet Nam veterans who committed war crimes/atrocities. Either way, your words do great harm to the institution of the Senate, my home state of Massachusetts, the Armed Services in which I proudly served for 27 years, and the very country that you aspire to lead.

Is it true that you single-handedly prevented a vote on a Senate version of H.R. 2833, the Viet Nam Human Rights Act of 2001 - a bill that passed the House by a vote of 410-1? There are many who believe that our failure to speak decisively on that issue cost the lives of thousands of Montagnard tribesman in Viet Nam. Where do you stand on H.R. 1587, the Viet Nam Human Rights Act of 2003? Will you support a parallel bill in the Senate? Is it true that you served as Chairman of the Senate Select Committee on MIA/POW Affairs and in that role you fought hard to limit the expenditure of funds to investigate sightings or search for remains? You have, I believe, been a steadfast, staunch and vocal advocate for normalizing relations with Viet Nam. Could it be that your beloved first cousin, Mr. Forbes, CEO of Colliers International, recently signed a contract with Hanoi worth billions of dollars? Any truth to the rumor that you didn't really fling your "hard-earned" military medals over the White House fence in a juvenile fit of pique as you say you did, but rather, you threw your roommate's medals instead?

I know dozens of retired military professionals. None of them support you - there is a reason for that. They all served honorably and well, and they all believe that you did not. I know war heroes, and your, sir, are no war hero.

-- Glenn Lackey

'nuff said. I wouldn't vote for him unless his opponent was Hillary Clinton.

I am a retired military member and a vietnam vet (67-68) and I certainly would not vote for a man such as Kerry. Although I do agree with the Ensign. BTW Ensign, thanks.

I knew alot of men at both ends of the spectrum. One of my best buddies enlisted when I did. He got a medical discharge for staying hopped up on heroin. One night he and some of his cronies raped a little girl and then wrapped her in butterfly wire and shot her into hamburger. He used to show the pictures and brag about it after he got back in the States.

I never spoke to him after we returned but the last I knew of him he was a big shot among the vets and the VFW and I was just trying to forget.

Haggis, the UCMJ doesn't have a statute of limitations on murder--you could still drop a nickel on the scumbag. I'm sure it's something you'd rather forget, and I certainly don't have any standing to suggest what you should do.

Haggis - I have been agonizing over your post ever since I read it and simply cannot ignore it any longer. If you in fact have information over a little girl being rape and then murdered you sir are obligated to report it, this is a duty you have as a American citizen, regardless if you like it or not, you must report it. I served more than one tour of duty in RVN and served with honor and pride, as did all the men in my unit. Went over as a enlisted soldier and came back as a officer and to read what you have posted is a dis-service to all our people in uniform, past , present and future. I can only hope that someone in the law enforcement community read your post and have already contacted you. You have an obligation to report this, that little girl was someones daughter and they deserve justice. Please do what is right

You didn't indicate that you personally observed what you're speculating about regarding this incident.

The two previous posters are trying to give you good advice based upon the moral high ground. My advice to you, as one who served in the 9th Infantry Division in the Mekong Delta from 1969-1970, and one who has to deal with his own demons, is that while you may want to relive your own experiences, you may not want to give much credence to stories related to you that were lived by others. These stories may be true or complete falsehoods.

By reporting information that does not prove to be true, you could be destroying far more lives than those involved in any alleged atrocity. Some will say, how do you know if it's true unless you report it?

My response would be that I have already met more veterans of the Vietnam conflict, especially combat veterans, than have ever served there. Most of these guys are frauds and posers and should be exposed for their phony backgrounds as opposed to any fictitious war crimes that they say they participated in.

Let your conscience be your guide and do what you think is best.

All,

Considering this is an election year, I'd like to add my two cents about Mr. Kerry as not only another veteran, but also registered Republican. Recently, I took sometime to watch his testimony during the hearings about Vietnam back in the 70s., testifying as representing other veterans protesting that war. Regardless of how those other veterans who chose not to protest during these times including myself may feel about his testimony, he Mr. Kerry had already without a shadow of a doubt proven his loyalty to our country by that time. And in my opinion, unless a person can make claims to the same proven loyalty, attacking his military record is out of line.



best regards

Larry Martin

Larry,
It is not out of line at all. When one does some good thing it is to his credit. However, it does not give one a free ride for the rest of his life.

Kerry evidently was a hero, but subsequently he has discredited himself as one to be admired.

I would stay home before I would vote for such a liberal as Kerry. He does not remain a hero. His subsequent actions have cancelled that claim.

I also speak as a RVN vet from '65 -66.

Jerry

I respect your opinion as another veteran and with that said, please explain when and where Junior Bush ever proved the same level of loyalty to country. Especially, considering there is now over 550 dead GI, not to mention the thousands of wounded he is personally responsible for as commander-in-chief. That in my opinion he entered office with a personal agenda because of threats made to his father senior Bush. Wooden it be nice if we all had United States military to carry out our personal agendas. There's one thing for sure, Junior Bush is liberal thinking when it comes to someone's blood other than his families.

Oh yeah! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

All,
Earlier today I had an opportunity to have dinner with my older brother who was a marine and served during 64 /65. It was obvious he feels Mr. Kerry somehow crossover the line by protesting the war after returning home and definitely see it as some kind of betrayal to fellow veterans. However, after pressing him on the subject of loyalty to country he couldn?t disagree that Mr. Kerry at one time had put and proved himself that he was willing to sacrifice his life for his beliefs. And deathly agreed that Junior Bush has never shown this level of loyalty to country anywhere prior to being president (commander-in-chief).

Shown this level of loyalty, what kind of BS are you trying to blow by us? Did you feel the same way about Clinton, the draft dodger? It isnt about proving your loyalty, it is about leading this nation, in that regard, I am much more comfortable with Bush with the reigns, than Kerry, who certainly has a voting record to prove where he probably would take this country.
Your bit on proving loyalty doesnt hold any water. Bush served in the Air National Guard, weather you like it or not, and received an honorable discharge. But, most importantly, military service is not a requirement to prove if you are capable of leading the nation. Being an honest person is a preferred character, and it is character that is more important. There is no doubt in my mind that Kerry "has no character".

Tells us about Jr. Bush's "no character" back in the 60s ? We all could have a great looking public character or otherwise if money was never an issue. But the real issue is show us where Junior has a character to take the 500 plus lives already. And as to your reference of his National Guard service during those times being some kind of honorable discharge speaking only from my generation is truly a joke. Made no mistake, there's not another true veteran of Vietnam that serve there after 68 that would say the same thing.

"there's not another true veteran of Vietnam that serve there after 68 that would say the same thing. "


Don't speak for me. I will do my own talking, and I don't have a problem with President Bush's National Guard service. miles

What does that make us that served prior to 68 (65-66 Delta, 229th AHB of the 1st Cav (Airmobile), Chopped liver? I can speak for myself thank you very much Sir.

"And as to your reference of his National Guard service during those times being some kind of honorable discharge speaking only from my generation is truly a joke. Made no mistake, there's not another true veteran of Vietnam that serve there after 68 that would say the same thing."

I stand by this statement only there is a misspelled words, "would" should read wouldn't.

All,
Just a little information that might be helpful for those not familiar with this era. President Lyndon Johnson did not run for his second term because of the failed policies of Vietnam. Richard Nixon took over as commander-in-chief somewhere around 68. without going back and looking at actual dates. Early on and the war National Guard units had been call-in to active duty, however these call-ups were few and far between. Immediately after becoming commander-in-chief Richard Nixon change this policy, and to my knowledge there was never another National Guard unit pulled up into active duty.

Just exactly what is "your" definition of a true veteran? I still stand by "my statement" with no misspelled words. Do not speak for me. I will speak for my self. miles

"Just exactly what is "your" definition of a true veteran?"

Loyalty to his/her fellow veteran, especially those of Vietnam, because loyalty is at the root or heart of character. Without either like Junior Bush you're nothing more than a recovering common drunk trying to convince the world someone's going to get their ass kicked and using United States military to do it.

All,
I've always known Mr Do -Gooder (Jimmy Carter) pardoned the drift dodgers that ran to Canada and elsewhere. What I didn't know until recently that this pardon (freeride) was promised prior to being elected. Which means after 58,000 loss their lives not to mention the hundreds of thousands that was wounded ,our society supported these lowlifes over veterans. And my opinion our society no longer qualifies as being preserving as judgmental over any of us that did our duty. One of the reasons reported back then was because he Mr. Do-Gooder accepted campaign contributions from wealthy families who had lowlife's living in Canada. This was to my opinion the ultimate betrayal to any Vietnam veteran discharged honorable and/or otherwise. However, after 1968 any National Guard that didn't serve in Vietnam and to my knowledge there was none, qualifies as the same type of lowlife's as those that chose to run. The National Guard during junior bushes time was nothing more than a safe haven for drift dodgers. If our country requires us to serve in combat, then without question need to be loyal.

Loyalty to his/her fellow veteran, especially those of Vietnam.


Do you mean like candidate Kerry? I think that the people in the National Guard served a purpose, just like the people in the military that served in other places than Vietnam. miles

I'd be a little stronger than that, Miles. I'd say his post is a strong contender for stupidest thing ever posted on the Campfire. Reflecting absolute and total ignorance of how the Air Guard ran at that time, and what its function was. Bush-hater, not worth trying to reason with.

Larry is a troll. He's got 8 pages of comments dedicated to his ignorance on the board above this one. Now he's trying to screw this one up.

All Americans,

Rest assure, there's not another combat veteran anywhere in this country that would not disagree with that statement, anyone that does and claims to be one is a phony.

Lawrence R Martin
18316 Woodside Dr,
Hagerstown, Md 21740

First it was a "true veteran", then a "combat veteran", eventually it will be "veteran Kerry" that agrees with him. miles

I have no close friends who were in actual combat in Kennedy and Johnsons war. I was discharged in 62 and if memory serves me correctly we had a lot of Special Forces in Vietnam who had no live rounds and then when they were allowed to have ammo they were no allowed to shoot until they were shot at. I would not want to be in Iraq but it would be nice to have ammo. I happened to have a job in Germany where I did get to meet several of these guys. They were a special breed. From talking to several friend and realitives who fought in Korea and WW2 you get most of the bragging and general BS. From the guys who saw no or very little combat. I had friends who were in Normandy Invasion and in the jungles of Asia and one very good friend who flew combat missions from carriers. If they would talk about it at all they would just talk about the good times. All these guys are gone now and a lot of history went with them. It sure is saying something for junior to be able to fly fighter planes and never showing up for duty. I was in alabama once and I don't think I saw him. Kenny

It's often interesting that when one is confronted by facts he tries to point to someone or something else.

It is as if a rapist is caught, and he says that he is not so bad because he did not rob a bank. That does nothing to lessen what he did.

As for Kerry, I have already expressed my opinion.
But when it come down to it, Kerry is a democrat with the reprobate values of that party.
There is nothing that GWB could do that would make me vote for Kerry or any Democrat.

A party that furthers the murder of the unborn, and the homosexual agenda is a party that is truly full of reprobates. I could never support such a party.

Jerry

"A party that furthers the murder of the unborn, and the homosexual agenda is a party that is truly full of reprobates. I could never support such a party."



Being a registered Republican beginning in 1974, never crossing party lines in presidential election, I've always supported the conservatives. In the last two elections my primary vote (heart) went to Alan Keyes knowing very well there was never a snow balls chance of him making it. In the last presidential election what upset some conservatives the most is when Rush Limbaugh "druggie" (Jr.Bush?s and seniors) butt bodies) through his support behind Bush before the primaries was over. In return John McCain never had a prayer. I do not support a lot of the things to the Democrats stand for, however this year my vote will be one of protest, and I've personally never publicly protested anything including Vietnam.



My main reason for this protest is one because Junior Bush after becoming president announced pardoning the illegal emigrants ( Hispanics), that have taken thousands upon thousands American jobs. I've worked in the construction industry the best part of my life in one fashion or another and had personally seen the devastation not being able to compete with basically free labor. And make decent living competing with an illegal workforce of over 10 million. So in short, Junior Bush lost my support over two years ago and as one that helped put him in office, will go out of my way to help get him out.



Also, neither of the two issues you've raised above has never played into my decision-making into any elections , nor issues like guns. In a president race, it's always been about who will make the best commander-in-chief, so will be able to have the freedoms you've mentioned.



All,

Any person that receives combat pay or hazardous duty pay has put their lives of a line of this country regardless of MOS, and to apply otherwise is only belittling their efforts. Especially, if these comments or assertions come from a free rider.

Skidrow, I just got through reading the topic on assault weapons and I see what you mean. I will not respond to anything else he says. miles

Ditto

"Ditto"



Another student of the talkshows.................LOL





It's amazing who some will follow, my favorite is the criminal that lost his voting and guns rights but probably persuade hundred of thousand to vote conservative every election out of their own stupidity. The funniest part is people see this guy as some kind of patriotic national hero, but in fact he is personally responsible for helping to bring down Richard Nixon and was at the center of one of the biggest scandals in this nation's history. But I will give credit he is a genius, because anyone that can get women over this country to send him naked pitchers of themselves for the "stacked and packed" calendar is no dummy. LOL

"Skidrow, I just got through reading the topic on assault weapons and I see what you mean. I will not respond to anything else he says."

Here's a message to all the free -riders here , I personally don't want you responding to this discussion, because the fact is there's absolutely nothing about any veteran you know anyone else needs to know. In short, your a waste of everyone's time.

"A party that furthers the murder of the unborn, and the homosexual agenda is a party that is truly full of reprobates. I could never support such a party."





I'd like to go back to this subject "social issue" and give you my true opinion . Neither of these subject have a place in deciding who would make a better present these days. That especially holds true post 911 and if some of you guys don't take your head out of your ass , these Third World religious radicals terrorist are going to show you want abortion is all about. The problem is these guys could care less about our social issues and would just as soon cut out an unborn and stand there laughing forcing it down your mouth. Then slip your throw because you wouldn't swallow.

Steve No,

Hope you don't mind me using this as a quote to lead to this link, it's all mil. record info. available to the public.

Thanks, .......joken2 Air National Guard in RSVN

Well Larry, I received Hazardous duty pay while serving in the 82nd Airborne div from 71-73. My point is simple, Kerry doesnt represent me, or most others during that era, take a vote. I find it very amusing we now bash a president who served in the air national guard, received an honorable discharge, and clinton (little c, because he is the worst thing that ever happened to democrats) got a pass for being a draft dodger, who helped organize protest events. You have the right to protest, and I have the right to dispise Kerry and Clinton, as one who also severed his country. I wore the uniform with pride during that period, and I was prepared to go "All the Way, and then some" Airborne. So I think I am capable of drawing my own conclusions. Kerry distorted the record on Vietnam, period in my book. If he is such a man, then why did he throw someone else's purple hearts in the river, claim they were his (read, lied about it), and now we find he has his framed in in Senate office.....

No problemo, joken. Good link. Anybody who thinks W was a weanie has never been strapped into several tons of fuel and munitions for a take off.

AggieDog,
100%. Amen
Jerry

Hey Gung - ho!

Your military record says one thing Gung - ho! and considering the years swallowed it hook- line and sinker. There's one very big difference between your record and mind ,my classification was A-1 US yours was not. Any true veteran of those times would pis$ purple Panther piss all over junior bushes record, because while they were out building character G. W. was getting drunk. LOL

Larry, it looks like you hijacked this topic while you're waiting for your son to blow people away with the assault weapons he's been buying. You must get off on seeing what you write. There's another term for people like you, you have diarrhea of the mouth.



You keep raising the bar on the qualifications of who you will accept a response from and then you not so neatly reject it when you get it.



I had my fill of draftees like you when I was in Vietnam. Most of you a[/i]ss-wipe draftees were fu[i]cked up when you were drafted and left the military still fu[/i]cked up. In your case, nothing has changed. Were you the centerpiece of the commercial that featured, "This is your brain on drugs?"



You have stated several times that you are a life-long Republican. I am too, and you embarrass the sh[i]it out of me with your grammatical errors, misspellings, and the constant editing of your posts. You are a fu[i][/i]cking retard.

larry,
[" Neither of these subject have a place in deciding who would make a better present these days. That especially holds true post 911 and if some of you guys don't take your head out of your ass , these Third World religious radicals terrorist are going to show you want abortion is all about. "]

BALONEY. The morals of the President are guides that govern his decisions. I want a COMMANDER IN CHIEF who has the proper moral compass, which means those on which this nation was founded. If he has that type of moral courage, then he will do what he can determine is the best for the nation, GWB has that sort of moral courage and compass.

There is probably nothing more to say to you about it. Believe as you will, and vote as you will, but as another RVN Vet I think Kerry is a disgrace to the nation.

Jerry

Jerry,



I'm not sure what your ethnic background is, but with a last name like Martin it very well could be Mennonite. And problem with most Mennonites they try to show their morality down everyone's throat.



All,

As a veteran you're surely entitled to vote however, but to trash another's combat veterans military record in public only goes to show your lack of loyalty. Like anywhere else, Vietnam had its undesirables.

WMacD--don't sugar coat it, son, tell him what you really think <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Probably the best thing to do is let Larry play by himself---if nobody posts replies, maybe he'll go troll somewhere else. Otherwise, he can talk to himself--sounds like a fellow who has some experience listening to the voices, if you know what I mean.

Hey my good friend Steve, are you a veteran or just a free rider?
LOL

" I had my fill of draftees like you when I was in Vietnam. Most of you ass-wipe draftees were [bleep] up when you were drafted and left the military still [bleep] up. In your case, nothing has changed. Were you the centerpiece of the commercial that featured, "This is your brain on drugs?" ?



Does this mean you enlisted and if so what year?





Actually, I didn't realize this form allowed such foul language, but then again what do I know, I'm only draftee. LOL





All,

But the best part is there some other guy here trying to give us lessons on morality,at the same time there's 13-year-olds boys reading these forms. LOL

I was born in 1974, so I was eligible for the draft in 1992. I was never drafted. Does that make me a free rider? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Larry...it's not smart posting your address. Now I already know you have at least two sons, their names, what they look like, what you look like, where you live, your phone number, etc.....I may not agree with you on most things, but I think it would serve your best interest to not post personal information like that. Consider it.

Free-riders, hum?
Look Larry, just because you did one right thing long ago and served your country, doesn't make you any less of an idiotic azzhole now. You keep pizzing everyone off with your bullshit topics, you won't respond to logic, you spout BS, and when you're proven wrong at least twice, you change topic.
Give it a rest.

Matthias,



"Larry...it's not smart posting your address. Now I already know you have at least two sons, their names, what they look like, what you look like, where you live, your phone number, etc.....I may not agree with you on most things, but I think it would serve your best interest to not post personal information like that. Consider it."



One of problem with these forms is the majority of participants are hiding behind a screen name, with no way to verify information they're providing into the discussion. In this discussion because of its nature any veteran that not willing to provide information that can be verified really in all honesty has no place in this discussion.However, it is not unreasonable for some person comes in this discussion to ask relevant questions of that era.





The term "free- rider" in my opinion would apply to anyone that was available are qualified for the draft during Vietnam era, this would not apply to women are those that would not have passed a physical. It also would not apply to homosexuals or a bed wetter. There's several other things also like the last surviving person in one particular family name and so on..



Something everyone should know about the draft during World War II , they actually came into high schools and took students.



The new and improved version of G. W. Junior Bush National Guard military record is like saying I didn't inhale!



During those times for someone to have already used the educational deferment ,then after 68 to be accepted into the National Guard, the odds would have been like a snowball freezing in hell, unless you knew someone in high places.

Everyone needs to ask themselves why this new version is now appearing.

Little bit more personal information about myself, I'm working for a book called (Nowhere to run to be my father's Patriot).and in this book will be relevant copies of my party affiliation, voting record and also a copy of my DD214 for public verification.

Who could possibly care?

Just be careful Larry. Your info is probably in good hands on this board, but please be careful posting personal info on the internet.

You fellows who did your hitches in military service during 'Nam aren't the only vets here. FWIW, I hope that an older vet's opinion is acceptable here.



What length, branch, type, or period of service makes one vet's view acceptable or rejectable here, anyway?



Too young to qualify for service during WW2 and too puny to get anywhere by lying about my age, I had to wait to enlist in the regular Navy, which I did in 1949, at age 18. If we'd been at war at that time, I probably would've enlisted in the Corps. By that time, I was inches taller and worlds tougher than I'd been during The War.



When the Korea flap began almost a year later, I was in photo school. Then I spent the rest of my hitch at the Naval Photographic Center (NPC) in Washington, DC, where (among other things) we produced the TV documentary on The War in the Pacific Theater, Victory at Sea. A number of my later shipmates at NPC were veterans of combat duty with the Pacific Fleet Combat Camera Group, to which I repeatedly and actively sought transfer for a couple of years. Each chit that I submitted came back "approved" but with the condition "qualified replacement required." Given the extraordinarily specialized nature of my work at NPC -- not done anywhere else in the Navy -- there was no such "qualified replacement" in the fleet -- only a few already there at my elbows at NPC.



Others had tried and failed to escape NPC by taking their discharges, then going to the west coast to reenlist. Every one of them got sent right back to NPC, where the usually obligatory sea duty was waived. NPC, dang it, was a life-time assignment. So like many others, I took my DD-214 and went to college.



Now to Kerry.



Everyone who's served any time in any military branch, at any time in history, knows that any unit is dead certain to include men of low character who do their MOSs well. Valor in battle is not a monopoly of enlistees or regulars. Some men enlisted in one branch to avoid being drafted into another branch (Kerry, for example) or to avoid prison. As a voluntarily enlisted peace-time regular on active duty, I found no reason to scorn draftees or reservists because they weren't voluntarily enlisted peace-time regulars too. Neither valor in combat, nor skill at a military MOS. nor reason for being in service is in itself a recommendation for approving my daughters' choices of husbands -- nor for my vote in November.



Now -- who was the first Viet Nam veteran to renounce and denounce John Kerry's service there? John Kerry, whose calumnies about other Viet Nam veterans also discredited his own. I see nothing in Kerry's miltary service that especially qualifies him for anything beyond running a boat, and much that he has done and said since that brief, long-ago stint on the water throws even that into serious question. Yes, it was worthy of praise at the time. Then why did he disown it, so soon, so vociferously, for so long?



In terms of time, effort, initiative, and mission, it's worth noting that Kerry has spent much more time and greater effort, on his own initiative and for his own agenda, throwing his brief term of active military service into disrepute. Now he wants the country whose interests he has so long opposed, to glorify him for that short stint as a small-boat skipper!

Ken,,,,as usual, beautifully put. Nice job sir, my hat is off to you.

Ken, I've finally found something I'm in total agreement with Matthias on , and speaking for myself only your opinion is very well respected. For the most part, I'm in total agreement with your views, however I do have a few exceptions. But first, I think it's important to recognize most VFW did not welcome the returning veterans of Vietnam home with open arms. The fact is it wasn't until after 76 that the VFW (veterans of foreign wars) made any Vietnam veteran comfortable in their clubs. With that said , by the late 60s everyone knew Vietnam was not a patriotic war and Mr. Kerry like him are not had already proven his loyalty to country. That itself is more than Mr. Bush can make claim.

The duty Mr. Kerry performed in Vietnam with boats, I personally have firsthand knowledge of these boats during my tour that was the 70s to control rivers. There was not another group of GI that was anymore committed in these. A lot of these guys would spend weeks at a time with only their surrounding equipment for protection.

Maybe you wouldn't mind elaborating (explaining) on by the VFW originally did not consider Vietnam veterans worthy of membership. Especially, considering everyone else turned their back on them.

I can not answer your question in any way that I think would edify, satisfy, or persuade you of anything. I have never disparaged anyone's honest, honorable service in any military branch during any time of peace or war, and I can't imagine that I ever will. (The aberrations of crimes and atrocities, including but not limited to desertion, suicide, treason, self-imposed wounds, etc, deserve condemnation in their own rights, and I don't consider them "military service," honorable or otherwise.)

I can neither imagine nor explain why so many people have heaped scorn and abuse on military men. I came in for some of it after the Korea war. After more than fifty years since then, I still don't know why honest, logical, honorable men feel compelled to judge military service with malice and hostility. (Maybe the limiting adjectives in my preceding sentence shed some light!)

Even Kerry, whom I regard as anything but honest, logical, or honorable, with his very obvious agenda, had to fabricate a multitude of reasons to denounce and renounce his fellows in Viet Nam to make his betrayal of them seem logical and justified, even "honorable." That, in itself, is a very telling commentary, IMO.

I keep hearing Kerryites citing his Purple Heart as if it's a medal for valor or at least merit.

Since when?

IIRC after more than fifty years, you got a Purple Heart for getting a bullet, a piece of shrapnel, or other foreign object allegedly maliciously inserted into some part of your body against your will -- no matter whether you were charging an enemy machine gun, flopping onto a live grenade to save your buddies, asleep in your bunk, or running the other way in what Patrick McManus called "a full-bore linear panic." Valor? Where?

IIRC, valor (when officially recognized, "by the book") earned other medals.

And during the Viet Nam war, according to several regular Army guys (still in uniform) whom I worked with at the proving ground, it wasn't unusual to get fancy-sounding medals for working on a military newspaper or radio station, for example, far from even friendly rounds fired in practice. Valor? Where?

The Purple Heart is an honorable medal, not to be disparaged or ridiculed. But let's not imply or infer that it's in the same league with the Congressional Medal of Honor, the Bronze Star, the Silver Star, or even the Combat Infantryman's Badge. It means only that you got your unlucky ol' butt wounded and says nothing about your behavior or bravery at the time.

" Valor? Where? " The fact that like thousands of guys like Mr. Kerry early on got sucked into believing they were fulfilling some kind of patriotic duty by enlisting into the military, pressured in large part by their parents. To fight and die in another man war, those who elected the JFK Johnson administration. Only to be denounced by those who served in prior wars, that helped elect Mr. Do-Good (Jimmy Carter). later on.

Well all-



If I may put in my two cents as a current active duty military member (BTW my father in law was in nam' as a Sea-bee and my late grand father fought in Korea as a Sea-bee so I do have some emotion invested in those conflicts - my other grandfather was in basic when we dropped the bomb on japan so his involvement was not so direct in WWII) . Some points to consider:



1. As any military member can tell you our job can be a thank-less one regardless of your job in the service.



2. The problem I have with Mr. Kerry is that after getting out of Vietnam he turned his efforts to making it difficult for those members of his boat crew still in country.



3. I read a line in a book once- a guy was asked if he thought a squad member was gay- The response was " a man in nam fighting on my side is a man fighting by my side- I don't care what he may be outside of that" May not be exact but close and no I do NOT advocate homosexuals in the military or their lifestyle. The point is when you are in the military the guys next to you are your "brothers" and I can not stand a man who would turn his back on them. Kerry did so by activly working to undermine the efforts of our government to fight in Vietnam- maybe we didn't fight that conflict the correct way but we made a stand.



4. As to Mr. Bush "getting" 550 people killed in Iraq--- hey if you are in the military you know you may be put in a poistion to die it is something we accept and much like vietanm in Iraq it is hard to tell the enemies from the friendlies.



5. We went over there to free a people- we have stopped a ruthless thug who was a WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION . Those that say we did it for oil or as a vendetta and then point out how we went for wmd and where are they? I say you think Bush and Blair made all this up and convinced a large multi-national force to go in (just because the french and germans aren't there doesn't mean its unilaterall) would then forget to plant some anthrax or vx gas?





6. Everyone is screaming why we didn't connect the dots on 9/11 to stop it well we had a lot more intell on Iraq and not doing something about it would be reckless, what happens if those wmds would have been used to strike Israel or given to terrorists to use in europe or the US what would you say then? Why didn't we go in? He (Saddamm) said he had them and kicked out the inspectors!!





Sorry for the length but I wanted to say something.



Andrew



Correct me if im wrong but wasn't it JFK who sent the first really early "advisors" to Vietnam? I though my Father-in-law told me that not sure. But if true is really seems to "slip" a lot of minds when the glorifing of JFK goes on.

"3. I read a line in a book once- a guy was asked if he thought a squad member was gay- The response was " a man in nam fighting on my side is a man fighting by my side- I don't care what he may be outside of that" May not be exact but close and no I do NOT advocate homosexuals in the military or their lifestyle. The point is when you are in the military the guys next to you are your "brothers" and I can not stand a man who would turn his back on them. Kerry did so by activly working to undermine the efforts of our government to fight in Vietnam- maybe we didn't fight that conflict the correct way but we made a stand."





I think this paragraph or statement says a lot about your knowledge of Vietnam. The fact is, there's probably not a veteran that ever served there that wouldn't say the same thing, based on the amount of military manpower I personally witnessed that war if run right could have been over in two weeks. So to say we made a stand, that could be but both hands were tied behind our backs.



As to your assertion Mr. Kerry turned his back on his fellow veterans , I totally disagree. Actually, based on the facts and time of his testimony, he was trying to shed light on some of the atrocities (horrors) taking place. That doesn't mean I totally agree with his testimony and open protest, quite the opposite. However, if Mr. Kerry turned his back on his fellow veterans it was nowhere near the level of disloyalty this country display towards those who served there not only during the conflict but after returning home , and many years that followed.

navrunner1, Believe it or not, Ike sent advisors in before the debacle at Dien Bien Phu. We had active advisors/observers there almost from the end of WWII!

Hey I was born in 77 so yes I didn't watch Vietnam on the news. But I do know what is going on in the war on terror and yes that does include IRAQ.



I find it interresting you pick on a paragraph that is talking of a book quote and not any of the other points I said.



Why do you think the felling is that among the terrorist that if they can give us a couple of Mogadishues ( I can't spell that one sorry) then the American public will cry and the president will call the troops home. Seems like they were led to believe that from a certain party's actions previous to Mr. Bush's term. Everyone acts like Bush ticked off UBL and then UBL attacked- well I remember hearing of some tomahawks hitting an aspirin factory in Afghanistan (klinton turned his back on the sailor of the USS COLE - 2 missles and an aspirin factory for the lives of sailors?)



Mr Kerry had PLENTY of time as a member of congress to make sure this country is safe and run in a way he would like. Bush is simply responding to the situation given to him-- Why is it Kerry thinks NOW he can get it right for us?



He had the time and was in a position to do so.



Andrew



I didn't know that bout IKE thanks for the info!

"Mr Kerry had PLENTY of time as a member of congress to make sure this country is safe and run in a way he would like. Bush is simply responding to the situation given to him-- Why is it Kerry thinks NOW he can get it right for us"


Mr, Kerry is no less or more responsible than any other political person in going to wars with IRAQ. As commander-in-chief, junior bushes is totally responsible and no other person. And to my knowledge this is the very first time this level of a offense evasion has ever been undertaken against another country, that was not provoke first. Please don't claim 911 was the reason.

You still have failed to tell me just what Kerry has done or would do to make things better!!

I could sit here all day and tell the country whats wrong with the country but until I have an answer or a plan I really do not have the right to blast a man over his job performance- There isn't a checklist you are to follow when an event like 9/11 happens, also the congress gave Bush the authority to do so- Kerry voted for it based on the information he had which was the same as Bush so why is it ok for Kerry to make the decision based on that information but not Bush?

Kerry may be a fine man but that does not make him the best choice for president. The question is who is better to lead the US for the next four years Bush or Kerry?

Kerry has not laid one plan out as to how he would handle things - I want to know exactly how he is going to respond when a car bomb goes off in IRAQ? Are we going to run out of there? Kerry and the Dems say we need to get the international community involved well they can call France and Germany on their own to make a case to be there- Jesse Jackson flies all over the place to meet and greet - why not to France?

Carter loves this type of job --- remember how he did in N. KOREA? It seems to me all these people are so "concerned" about the state of affairs but are holding back until after the election - putting themselves before the country.

Bush has had the guts to stake his presidency on this war and has not backed off of his assertion it was a rightous and correct thing to do.

andrew

I have known dozens of Nam vets. I have never heard one that was in heavy fighting begrudge a Guardsman or even those that went to Canada. They have told me that they were glad that anybody that could, did not have to go through the hell that they did. Some said if they had it to do over, they would have gone to Canada or joined the Guard, which by the way was certainly not difficult to get into in the two states I am familiar with, before 68 or after. About everyone I knew got into the Guard who wanted to. I have never heard Nam vets gloat over their service. Just did not run into those types of people.



The fact is, that had Vietnam been a WW II situation, which it was not, everyone would have willingly dropped their deferments and joined up like they did in WW II. It became ever so apparent around 67 that something was horribly wrong with the Vietnam situation so boys that normally would have been gung ho started looking around for other options. The Navy and Air Force were in general, not always depending on the job, about as safe as being in the Guard at home. Those guys were joining those services to avoid ground combat. Do you equate them with Guardsmen?



Most aspects of anything to do with Vietnam can be argued till the cows come home and we will never get it figured out. I am going to throw a concept out here that most simply refuse to acknowledge. Social ostracization, the avoidance of it, was the driving force and was a fate worse than death for most in so many wars. They went and fought because they could not handle the shame of not doing so. It was not because they believed in the cause; many did not have a clue as to why. They knew their relatives and friends and society would haunt them forever or that prison might be worse, etc. True courage was a man that did not let society dictate to him through shame that he should participate in a cause he knew was wrong. In the beginning most believed in the Vietnam cause. I believe most went to Nam believing in the cause and they may have been correct in their beliefs. As time went by, we changed our opinions. Maybe, had the military been given the authority to run the war, it could have been over fast. That did not happen and LBJ mucked it up and the rest is history-we lost 58,000, hundreds of thousands mentally and physically wounded, the Vietnamese millions-like they had not already been through enough hell with Chinese invasions, French colonialism, communism with it's civil war 1945 to 1975, the spill over into Cambodia and the resultant horrors there with millions dead, etc. The whole history there of human suffering is more than one can comprehend and we did not handle our end of it like we should have. I mean we rearmed the very Japanese we had fought in WW II at the end of hostilities to fight against the Vietnamese who were trying to free themselves from French occupation-it was nationalism, communism second. Yes, Ho was horrible but millions died under his leadership rather than submit to French or U S interference. Like I said, it was bigger than what we could handle and we misjudged the situation horribly- remember McNamara.

Andrew,



I'll be the first submit your knowledge of current affairs is far superior to mind. But the fact of your ignorance of my generation only goes to show what put us here in the first place.

As we tune in to another episode of "As the Troll Turns."

1 last thing if my knowledge of current affairs is superior - why then would you make a decision to support a man (kerry) if you aren't all that familiar with the current situation in Iraq, the US and the world!

You are blasting Bush but admit you aren't up to speed on the current situation! wha? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Why in the he double L would you be in a position to criticize the president if you are ignorant of the facts. Everything I have said is available in open source locations yet you haven't taken the time to educate yourself before you vote/throw your support behind an individual.

Dangerous practice because regardless of your political leanings being an idealogue instead of an informed reasonable person means you wont notice when your choice starts to hurt you.

Andrew

Ps I'm done I'll let this person go away now.

Oddly enough, Mr. Kerry hasn't really apologized for his demonstrating but the gal (Hanoi Jane) in the picture with him has. Why would one protest against a war and then point to his medal or medals later to get elected to a political office? Who is Mr. Kerry really? If you follow his voting record can you tell where he's coming from? Most can't. He's even more two faced than Al Gore.

What I've learned from this thread is if you were drafted into the military or served in the National Guard you are dirt beneath a certain person's feet. If you were drafted and served in Viet Nam you have no honor or worth.

That said I don't regret my military time spent helping to protect my fellow American's freedoms. One is the freedom of speech. I'm glad we can still say what we believe. I must say some people make me want to puke. Just for the record my military experience was active duty Air Force as a fighter acft. crew chief and an ANG crew chief and flight engineer. I actually had two terms of active duty and two in the ANG. I say this to clarify my past military duty, NOT to make reference to a group I'm familiar with.

You certainly have a lot of in right , especially the part about who screwed up (JFK Johnson administration) . In my opinion if Nixon would have won election in 60 , the Vietnam Memorial wall would not exist today. but hindsight is always 20/20.



As a law-abiding citizen in an election year , I will openly display my dislike for Junior Bush and give reasons why. For some reason I'd like to naively think this is how the system is to work. However, if or when Junior Bush wins his second term there'll be no more open statements from myself regarding his policies, but until then I'm camping out!

"Oddly enough, Mr. Kerry hasn't really apologized for his demonstrating but the gal (Hanoi Jane) in the picture with him has."

In my opinion, Mr Kerry does not need to apologize for anything considering his military record .

navrunner1, I want to thank you and all of the others for their service. You will get nowhere with Larry. He is a legend in his own mind. Yes, some of us did think that is was our duty to serve in Vietnam and not run off to Canada. I also feel that the National Guard and Coast Guard is serving our country, then and now. miles

"Yes, some of us did think that is was our duty to serve in Vietnam and not run off to Canada. I also feel that the National Guard and Coast Guard is serving our country, then and now. "

All,
There's another sucker born everyday. just don't swallow. LOL

Thank you sir for the thanks!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It is nice to hear it once in a while.

Andrew

O.K. I'll say it to, thank you for your service to our country.

Burkett, whose 1999 book, "Stolen Valor," is considered to be the definitive history of of falsified Vietnam War claims, told WABC Radio's Steve Malzberg that Kerry's former commanders would allege that the top Democrat's Purple Hearts were awarded for "self-reported injuries that were virtually nonexistent."

"He never got a day of treatment, he never spent a day in a medical facility," Burkett said. "These were all self-reported wounds, which you're going to hear from some swift boat guys in the future as to the nature of those wounds."

Burkett said he had personally spoken to the Navy commanders who were preparing to go public about Kerry's decorations.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/4/234750.shtml

Something you all might want to think about, the more Mr Kerry military record is attacked in this discussion. Any Vietnam veteran prior 69 reading this subject is more likely to vote fellow veteran. LOL

Sure...once you get your head out of your ass, I got a bridge to sell ya.

Matthias,

There's probably something you better get used to, unlike our counterparts (the veterans of World War II and Korea) that turned their backs on us. Come November the veterans of Vietnam will send Junior Bush packing back to Texas. LOL

See my post above yours. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Whatever Buttercup ! LOL

Anytime, Drift Dodger. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

larrymartin,

Who do you think you are, the Duke of Turd's Island or someone?

In your posts you say that nobody who isn't a Vietnam veteran has a right to criticize Kerry. What's the big deal about serving in Vietnam? After all, during most of that war, it was the official policy of the Defense Department that GRADE SCHOOL TEACHERS were more important for the national defense than draftees like you. That's why they got occupational deferments.

What comes out is the real reason you oppose Bush, your featherbedding Mafia union affiliations. Too bad the Hispanics will work for less! It's OK, I guess, for you to steal time from your employer and be a featherbedding goof-off so the rest of us have to pay more for our houses. Welcome to the Somethin' for Nothin' crowd!

Sadly, while complaining about the Hispanics already here, you don't even realize that Bush hasn't given a single one amnesty yet. You see, they're legal. (If you want to find some illegal Hispanics, I would suggest you check out who picks tomatos for Theresa Heinz' company, the big sugarmomma of John F'n Kerry.)

For the record, I did not go to Vietnam or serve in the Military. I designed air-to-surface missiles and had an occupational deferment. (At one point, I received a direct commission, without benefit of OCS or ROTC, and resigned my commission one day later.) Our missiles are why we can send one airplane today, instead of 300 like in WWII, and destroy the target without getting 30 or 40 shot down.

I believe I have done more for the defense of this nation than anyone like you could dream of.

PS: I'm voting for Bush.

I think that would be Turdistan.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyhow, great story on your job! I'd love to work for Raytheon, or someone that does that type of work.
My college instructor was/is a Raytheon Radar Sr. Eng.
Who'd you work for?

Hey Free-ride !

Guys like you turn my stomach , especially considering your position on the Hispanics. I love it when one of you free riders ( contractors that employee the illegal Hispanics) call into conservative talk shows claiming to be patriotic. What a joke you are! LOL

For the record, I've been self-employed in one fashion or another starting in 1979 all but two years. During that time I've never made less than six figures other than the two years working as a manufacturer's representative. So frankly, I'm not impressed with your resume. LOL

Matthias,

Hughes Aircraft Company. Since then, the Missile Systems Division has become part of Raytheon.

Good Evening, Larry,

I think that's just great. You should be thankful that you live in a country where even a semi-literate bigot can earn six figures. If you can earn that much, then perhaps that's why Hispanic Americans might be attracted to such a job.

I was not aware that I employed any illegal aliens. From time to time I have employed and worked with American citizens of Hispanic descent. I believe the Constitution gives them the same rights as American citizens of troll descent.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Too bad the Hispanics will work for less! It's OK, I guess, for you to steal time from your employer and be a featherbedding goof-off so the rest of us have to pay more for our houses."



Here's the statement I'm addressing, you people exploit those that are forced to work for peanuts, at the same time their (Hispanics) are driving down the wages of skilled legal labor. It very true I'm in six-figure bracket, however because of competing with this basically free labor force, I'm forced to work twice as hard these days to make the same amount of money that was needed 20 years ago. Moreover, you're constantly told by people in management positions ( someone who might contract your particular skills) if someone doesn't like the working conditions, they'll just be replace with Hispanics. My only protection is because of specializing in one particular area that in the high-end of home-building, but it doesn't change the facts. And the facts is regardless of your opinions it's against the laws that Junior Bush swore to uphold. Make no mistake, if I would've known his position prior to the previous election he dam shore would have never received my vote and rest assure never will again.

You're in the six-figure bracket and a bunch of Hispanics are stealing your job by basically working for free? Oh really?

Let's just reason this out. You get paid $100,000, let's say. So a guy shows up and says, "My name Jose Jimenez, Senor. Fire that Larry Martin and I will do the work for free."

I don't think any human being is that dumb.

I could see him saying he would do it for $90,000. But free?

And if you get paid that much, you must be pretty skilled. The Mexican who takes your job is obviously pretty skilled too. If he's legal, what's wrong with that? And if he's illegal, why haven't you reported him to the Feds?

Gimme a break. What's really happening?

Here's the problem. I'm a specialist in stair building which is the highest paying skilled labor of any in high-end custom homes. I also hold one patent and several other products I've invented being marketed and sold national today. When working with my tools, I'll average hundred dollars an hours or more. Rest assure I'm in the high-end of my particular trades in the pay scale. I'm not talking as much about myself as I am about others with less skills.

If you'd like to visit my personal website its www.accutools.us

Purdy Nice Larry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thank you Matthias!

larry,

Well shucks, your boy kerry is going to tax your high paid azz off.

Saw him on the news tonight. Anyone over $200k is going to get the tax hammer if he wins. Businesses are going to get the tax hammer if he wins.

He!!, everyone is going to get the tax hammer if he wins.

Remember what happened in the 70's when another demo (Carter) toyed with hammering businesses and the "wealthy" with taxes : 20% interest rates for starters.

Gees, wonder what would happen to the middle class worker who your boy kerry is so worried about when interest rates starts climbing to double digits ??

I know, I had a house loan of 17% for a short period of time.

What a joke.

Tony.

I can honestly say voting for president for me has never been about taxes. Just the fact the M-16 is still service, I'd be more happy to pay more taxes to get it removed.. If GIs could get their families off food stamps there again I'll be more happy to pay more taxes. In a presidential race or decision it's about one thing and one thing only, who will make the best commander-in-chief. If any of you guys ever saw the amount of waste daily the military can generate it would blow your minds. But that's not the real problem, its the fact very few people in this country can imagine what a Third World country is like and think they want the same things as us. (Freedom) and the fact is like Vietnam they just want to be left alone.

larry,

Oh yea, forgot about the rampant inflation that came with the tax hammer on the "wealthy" and businesses.

Yup, really got that president re-elected.

Ah, shucks, thats right, the election isn't about taxes right ??

I hope you aren't being paid to disrupt this web site with kerry propaganda (BS), because you really are doing a piss poor job of it.

Later home skillet,

Tony.

PS : get a real job.......

You know larry, you sure you don't also work as a paid basher on some of the investment chat rooms I frequent ?

You know the type......paid by market makers to beat the price down of a stock by placing doubt and fear in peoples minds ? Usually because they are either short the stock or on BB stocks, are trying to cover their naked short positions.

No matter, the objective is the same.

Tony.