Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Gunsmithing gone bad: Rifle held hostage

Save yourself the click.



Well Jim Ray, you've finally smoked me out of hiding! Just so all of you out there know, I'm only answering the phone on Fridays, until I can get some of my back log out the door, can't talk and work at the same time. I average 40-50 calls a day incoming,and it usually fills the box before noon. I also do not answer the private name/unknown number calls--just too many salesmen out there. My apologies for being so hard to get ahold of.
Mr. Ray, there are a couple of statements made on this forum that bother me greatly.
First, that I've had your rifle since July. The letter that you sent me was dated July 28 and rec'd on the 31st. You and I first talked on August 1. The USPS date stamp on your shipment is August 4th. Your firearm arrived August 11 and is logged in on that day. August 11th to current date doesn't quite add up to 6 months posted here or the 5 months stated in the letter to the Arizona State Attorney Generals Office, Department of Consumer Complaints. On my fingers we're just short of 4 months.
I confirmed on the 12th at the range that the problem that you described was indeed valid. I spent 6 hours on the 13th confirming that Penrod Precision and Bansners had performed their work correctly. Sights in the middle, action squared, throat straight and true,crown square, etc. etc. etc.(Great job guys, I'd let you work on my guns anytime!). Now the conversation in which I agreed that since I could find nothing else wrong, it must be the barrel, and I would replace it, including mounting, chambering, crowning, resetting the sights, rebedding, and refinishing, all at no cost to you.
With this verbal commitment to you why are you stating that I have no interest in repairing or returning your fire arm? I had the new left hand twist barrel on your rifle when we talked in October, at your request for a right hand twist I removed it and built an new barrel. No Questions asked or complaints made to you. I told you I would fix this rifle and I meant it. I suppose I should have told you the 2nd new barrel would add some time to the return. I just assumed that you knew.
Your student investigator did come to the shop. I explained to him where the rifle was in progress. Don't have any idea why he didn't respond to you.
Mr. Ray, Your rifle is reassembled and on its way to Bansners for refinishing. He tells me that it should be back home in a couple of weeks.(his refinisher is going deer hunting this week). It is now hitting the center of the target with the sights set in the center of the base. It's OK. This is not one of lifes expensive lessons. I haven't disapeared, My FFL is good to August 2011, and your rifle is safe and will probably be home before Christmas.

Now, for all of you following this customer relations nightmare, as Paul Harvey would say. Here is the rest of the story.
Mr. Ray did not buy this barrel from me! It was probably purchased from J. Courtney. I did send a barrel to Mr. Courtney with a left hand twist, and Mr. Ray inidicates that he knows Mr. Courtney. It was then sent to Penrod Precision where it was recontoured and installed on a Montana action. From there, it was sent to Bansner for sight installation,and stocking. Now, some of you might at this point be questioning why a shady operator like myself would warranty a barrel for a person that was not the original purchaser, and had been modified by at least two other gunsmiths. The Answer--- Because I believed that it was the right thing to do. Mr. Ray had an obvious problem, And I STAND BEHIND MY PRODUCT AND MY WORK. I may fall down in the customer contact satifaction catagory, but I refuse to leave a customer with less than my best effort a producing a quality product. Bear with me, I'll enumerate on Mr. Rays Expensive Life Lesson.

Jim Ray-- Four months of frustration.

Classic Barrel
1. Tarnished reputation
2. Multiple black eyes on AR Forums
3. 6 hrs diagnostic & 2 range trips $400
4. 1 S/S left hand twist barrel $340
5. 1 S/S right hand twist barrel $340
6. 2 installation charges ($225) $450
7. 1 bedding charge $175
8. reinstall sights and b/b $95
9. freight to Bansners $85
10. refinishing by Bansners not discussed
11. 1 box 416 Rem Ammo $112
12. Freight home to Mr. Ray $???
13. Trouble with AZ Atty Gen
14. Trouble with ATFE
15. Trouble with My Boss at Yavapai
16. Pride in knowing that Mr. Ray's
rifle now shoots correctly PRICELESS

Thank all of you for your patience while I ramble.
Good Nite
Dan Pedersen

P.S. I have two left handed tomato stakes for sale or trade --CHEAP!

Jambo; Lets see your answer to this if you are man enough to
say anything at all. You owe a lot of people appologies.
Take Care!

Mr Pedersen , there are always two sides to every story and yours sounds about right for the problem with this guys rifle. I am looking forward to his reply to your explanation. My hat is off to you for coming on this site and explaining you side of this story.

Although Dan Pedersen has never done any work for me (yet), he has always responded to my e-mail queries in a timely manner. I have not commented until now because Jambo's account didn't seem to jibe with my personal experiences. I know from friends in Arizona who are acquainted with him that he has more work lined up than one person should have to deal with, and that he burns the midnight oil to get things done. I am glad that he took the time to set the story straight.

An excellent post.. Hat's off and bowing low to you CB..

Yeah, I think Jambo needs to reply, and very soon...

Communication: Almost never overrated.....

JPro
Based on assorted half-truths, untruths and omissions from the original poster I suspect the lack of communication might be more along the lines of "Get off my friggin' back! I will call you when I get your rifle done!" Answering the same phone and the same questions the same way repeatedly gets old.
art

I was very pleased with the rebore Dan did for me a couple years ago. Had no problem with communication. Thanks again for the good work Dan. --- Mel

++++++ 1

Makes you want to find a new profession.

Well, sure nice to know the "rest of the story" and see that a "good guy" doesn't unfairly get a bad rap. Nice to know where to go for a new barrel too!

All that said:

This all started when Dan went the extra mile to make someone happy. That's a good thing - and frankly, I'm amazed a manufacturer of a precision product would stand so strongly behiond something from the non-original owner that had been modified twice by different people.

It went sideways when the person being helped appeared to not know what was going on and/or became frustrated.

Based on what we're seeing here - IMO, this could have been avoided by communications, understanding, patience and not over-reacting to a perceived wrong.

One thought - might be good to get a system in place - web/email-based, or an assistant -- to provide updates. A little clicking on a keyboard can cause one way too much grief.

Coldbore,

Once again, I'm reminded that We all live in a two story house.

Please accept my apology for my comments based on the statements of the original poster. Obviously, it all started with him supplying a defective barrel.

As a home improvement contractor, I don't warranty (by contract) any work or delay that follows the installation of customer supplied materials that are later discovered to be insufficient or defective. Additional labor to make the owner supplied material suitable for installation is only performed after the client signs a change order to that effect.

Many clients, both yours and mine, believe they know all there is to know about the materials that go into their build. They buy the items that go into a project themselves to reap airline miles from the credit card they use and to ostensibly save any mark-up(my time+warranty reserve) we apply to such items.

Even when it's been explained and agreed to in writing, somehow, it's all our fault. We should have spent uncompensated hours double checking their purchases, in my case the finish on the cabinets or the uniformity of the tiles purchased at a close-out warehouse (that can't be returned).

During my stint in the gun biz I saw all sorts of owner supplied problems and delays, from bad scopes to "XXX" stock blanks that carved out to "utility".

Many clients have so much emotion invested up in their projects/purchases/decisions. When it all turns out as per their vision they're in the clouds (the rewarding part of our work) and when something goes the other way they look to lay blame elsewhere(the worst part).

Again, my apologies. I should have known better.

Jim

The problem is some people seem to think they are the only ones in the world and everything should be dropped to make them happy. They figure if you can go to a store and buy whatever you want off the shelf, custom work can be done in a likewise manner.

It's telling that after Dan showed how he went above and beyond what could reasonably expected, that the op hasn't had a word to say on the issue.

It's also telling that Dan is gentlemen in the respect to how he does business.

I think there is a misunderstanding here.

I'm not Dan Pedersen, I just cut & pasted from the other thread, to save people from clicking back and forth.

The words are Dan's, not mine.

Sorry if I seemed to mislead anybody!

Phone call, return letter, either would have saved him a lot o hassle

You keep assuming he did not respond in timely and repeated fashion. He may have done just about anything and we would not know it. Continuing to insist the smith is wrong when we truly know almost nothing is ridiculous.

I'm not taking sides in this discussion, but one thing I don't understand about it.

If the rifle was test fired and sighted in, how and why did it leave the last person who worked on it with the sights that far off center?

It looks like someone would have noticed that something was not right if it took that much sight movement to get the desired POI.

Even tho Mr Pederson wrote his side of the story and JB told us his side of the story , I'm still at odds on who is totally telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Maybe they both are a little on the guilty side. The truth is, we will never know the whole story about this deal and how it went down.

Jambo shows up to bash a well know smith and barrel maker, then dissapears. 4moths for a barrel job with out having the barrel is pretty damn good. I was thinking it was like 2 years. Pederson should have cut him a check to have someone else do the work, sounds like it would have saved him in the long run.

For those that value their reputation, they'll go out of their way to maintain it. It's one of those things not taught in business school, but sorely lacking in business, government, schools, etc.

The #1 understatement of the year, by far and away..