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I was raised from the age of about 10 to tithe. My father made me tithe on my paper route. 10% life or death. We were Methodists. Later on I got saved and started to attend Pentecostal Churches and they preached tithing on average once a month or at least every other month. I never had a bad attitude about it.

BUT- as I got older and saw the corruption of the collective ministry in Va Beach area, in areas of money, simony, and legalistic tithing- I started to think outside the box about many things. I studied the New Testament through and through and through. I find NO emphasis on tithing. Actually tithing is used in a negative example by our Lord.

I think legalistic tithing flies in the face of Paul's letter to the Galatians. Grace is grace, bestowed upon those that are graciously enabled to believe. It is not purchased via a 10% tax paid to God through omnipotent local pastors.

Christians should give to whom they can with what they can, motivated solely by divine love in their hearts moving them to have compassion upon their fellow man.

Paul nearly equates neglect of the family as denying Christ- such a one is "worse than an infidel". SO- I believe paying the family bills is more important in New Testament theology than paying a legalistic tithe.

Also in the context of Galatians- those that believe that tithing is a pre-requisite for grace perhaps have frustated grace, by approaching God via a works and debt mentality, ie., "I paid my tithe, now God owes me a blessing." That, in my mind is blashphemy of Christ's redeeming blood and sacrifice, the only meritorious act that aquired grace for us all. AND yet Pentecostals teach a works debt relationship with God all the time by their inordinate fixation with legalistic tithing.

FWIW

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As the first tithe was by Abraham to Melchizedek, it is pre-Mosaic and therefore not limited to the covenant with Moses. I treat it much like the day of rest: the Mosaic Sabbath was thrown out by the new covenant but the idea of a Sabbath, or day of rest, is fundamental (don�t shoot me on semantics, that was the best word I can come up with right now) to Christianity since it was instituted by God Himself at the end of Creation. Sacrifice was instituted well before the establishment of Mosaic Law, but like tithing and the Sabbath, Mosaic Law formalized it for those who sought not to commune with God directly. Christ became our Sacrifice: we cannot say that it is no longer needed but rather that it has already been done. That the new Covenant abolished the formalism surrounding such things as tithing and the Sabbath does not mean that those institutions are no longer important, but rather that they are governed by the Spirit and not the Law.



Should we tithe? Yes. Must we tithe to corrupt institutions? No. But we should hold ourselves to the same standards that we hold church organizations if we are to refuse cooperation with them. I agree that a man�s responsibility is first to those God has placed in his immediate care: his family. But who is it that cannot afford to tithe but can afford to feed his family. I know there are those who cannot feed their own family or themselves. It would seem that we have cooperative ministries for the sake of such persons. Can you feed them all? Can you even find them? Should you withhold your giving and expect another individual to be able to provide for the needy that you don�t see? I don�t think this is what you�re saying, so I am sure you see the need for cooperative ministries and the need to support them. And yes: I, too, see a legalistic over-emphasis here and there. It is a small cloud, it will pass.

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Sounds to me like your trying to reason yourself out of the responsability of tithing.
Corrupt institutions, have to pay family bills first, legalistic, etc.
If the above circumstances apply to you, you have dropped the ball already. Kinda like a kid crying about having to give back a dime from the dollar his Dad gave him.


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Tithing, giving ten percent of your net income, is a very old institution, as has been said, going back to the time of Abraham, at least. It is an offereing to God, in gratitude for what He has provided for you, in recognition that what you have is due to God's providence. It should not, however, be formalized, as was done under Mosaic law. Rather, it is up to the individual to comply with this responsibility. If you are connected with a Church organization, then you should contribute to its support. In the New Testament, we have the example of the couple whose live's were miraculously taken from them when they cheated in tithing, but that was not because they didn't give ten percent, but because they said, and continued to say publically, that they were giving ten percent, but were actually not being honest, cheating God, while holding themselves out as being honest and generous. So, do not say you give x percent to God, and then cheat. If the institution is that corrupt, then get out of it, and join another. The money should be used for the support of the institution, and for other good causes. For example, if I were Roman Catholic, I would not be giving one penny during the collection, because that money goes to support all the lawyers needed to defend all the homosexual/pedophile priests, and not to the support of the Church you attend, or the needy.

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Were in the bible dose it tell the christian to tithe to ones church ?

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Were in the bible dose it tell the christian to tithe to ones church ?
It is not required, but it is a tradition. You should support your church. It is not a law. The tradition was 10%.

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DF, you watch to much T.V. Those ingnorant, apostate Pentecostals are out to get your money are they? Not.



So, just where in the Bible does it tell the Christian to tithe to ones church?



The Lord through Malachi told the people to bring the tithes into "the shorehouse" Malachi 3:8-10. We ask, What and where is the storehouse? Where did this originate? It was

not Mt Sinai. Tithes were brought to the Tabernacle and to the priesthood.



Brought to the Place where His Name was recorded Deuteronomy 12.

God told Israel to bring their tithes, offerings, frewill offerings,

sacrifices and firstfruits, to the place where his Name would be recorded. This was at the Tabernacle of the Lord. God's

tabernacle and temple now is Christ. It is in Him where God's name is recorded. We bring our tithes to him John 1:14-18

2:20-21.

Then again, the chruch is now God's Temple, so we bring our tithes to the Church where His Name dwells Matthew 18:18-20

1Corinthians 6:16 Duet 12:5-14

The Storehouse

It was under King Hezekiah that the shorehouse originated. This storehouse was the temple of the Lord. 2 Chronicles 31.

Under Hezekiah there was an awakening in Israel and a return to the giving of of tithes and offerings for the ministry.

Note how this was done in order to distribute to the ministry everywhere, not just the ones ministering abouth the temple.

The Levites themselves had to minister and disburse the tithes vs 12-19. The ones who brought them did not control the tithes or dispensing of them.

The tithes were not rationed or percertaged out (vs10). All

had plenty at the temple to meet their needs. The temple was used as a storehouse for surplus tithes Deuteronomy 24:4

1Corinthians 9:9,10.

The whole purpose was that the Levites might have food to eat and be encouraged to minister the Law of the Lord vs 2,4.

This would provide "meat in My house" Malichi 3:8-10

Tithes were used, not locked in treasury or account but for the levites.

Note the number of ruling Levites over the tithes and the number over the freewill offerings vs 12-15. Compare with the Book of Acts and early Church history.

Thus the Temple, the house of the Lord, where the priests and Levites ministered the Word of the Lord was the storehouse where people brought their tithes and offerings unto.

The fulfilment is seen in the New Testament by bringing our tithes and offerings to the place where we are spiritually fed, so that the ministry may study the Word of the Lord to feed us therewith.

In the temple there were chambers of stores for the tithes and offerings from which the priests and Levites could draw.

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Tithing predated the Mosaic Law.
In the Law, tithing was required, and not just one tithe but two, and an additional tithe every third year (I think the third, but have not looked it up today) and therefore the Israelites gave closer to 25% of their gross income.

Without arguing the above in detail, there is not a single command to tithe in the NT. In fact there were several opportunities to command tithing but it was not done.
Two examples come to mind. Acts 15:19-20; 2Cor 9

I am of the school that believes that tithing per se is legalistic. However, the Bible clearly teaches that the major way the gospel is spread and saints edified is through the local church. It further teaches that Christ has given us pastors as the "first officer" of the local church. Pastors do not have dictatorial authority, but authority in the spiritual matters of the church. We are to follow pastors as they follow Christ. They must be supported financially if they are to have the time to study and minister. Members of the church are to do that.

In order to accomplish the job which Christ has given to the local church money is necessary. It must come from Christians digging into their pockets and contributing money.
Paul said that one should give as he purposes in his heart.

I do not believe that it is too much for one who Christ has redeemed to give at least 10% of his gross income to Christ's work for His glory.

In general that offering should be given to the local church, bus some might be given to missionaries, etc. BUT to neglect the local church, and rationalize that your parents, or some organization needs it more is to abrogate your responsibility to Christ to further the work which the local church is to do. If you cannot support your local church, then leave it and go to one which you can support.

There is no question that one is to support his family, but that does not relieve you of the responsibily to give generously to the church, and the gospel spreading work of the church.

I find some who make the claim that the Christian is not required to tithe, use that as an excuse to be chinchy in his giving to the local church.
2 Corinthians 9:6 �But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Any Christian should get into a financial position to give at least 10% of his gross income to the local church and its ministries. Each of us is a steward of the "talents" which Christ has entrusted to us. To be self centered and consume it on our own lust is to put ourselves before Christ. James 4:3 and the parable of the talents are good indications of what I am saying.

Is a Christian commanded to tithe? No, but as a general principle he should.

Is a Christian commanded not to drink alcohol as a beverage? No, but considering the example he should set, and the tragic consequences of drinking today, he should abstain.

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45LC-

and others:

Please notice the argument of Paul in his letter to the Galatians. He uses circumcision in his examples, something that came prior to the law of Moses also!

In defense of myself- I have NO bad attitude about giving any amount to God, at any interval that the Lord may request of me. I did in fact tithe for many many years. To lend weight to my argument- I even risked 6 years in prison in Nepal- left a growing business and took great financial risks and gave ALL not just once but several times in pursuing over-seas missions. So stingy-ness is not one of my character flaws. Perhaps the opposite.

I just don't get it how so many, can trod under foot Galatians at the drop of a dollar bill, ie to justify legalistic tithing to prop up the Church budget. Life or death- Paul's pure gospel, that is the way I want to go...

Good replies! Good debate.

But lets look at this issue in the light of Galatians.

What of the curse in Galatians chapter one? Preaching "another" gospel is dangerous business! Grace should also be taught in relation to our finances, individual and corporate.

My background perhaps is a lot different than a lot of you, I did indeed see a great deal of corruption in the VA Beach ministry, CBN Pat Robertson, and the mega churches of the area. The corruption almost always revolves around money, its misuse, simony, and ego.

Ministers should always live by this standard: freely ye have recieved, freely give.

Free will offerings in love to support the local pastor in love. Amen. No 10% tithe tax that frustrates grace.

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I am sure that we all would heartily agree to oppose those who take from the faithful only to line their own pockets or those who might preach a salvation of works, but not to neglecting the ministry of the local body. It is by faith that we are saved but by our fruits that we are known.

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Gents,
I figured I'd toss in my 2 cents here...(or 10%) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I believe that it is every responsibility of every Christian to look at what they have been blessed with and to give back to God what they can. 2 Cor. 9:7 "every man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."
Some folks like to give 10%, that is a big sacrifice and they will be rewarded. The reward will be far more valuable than gold or silver, it will an increase in Faith in God and a reward in heaven. I don't like the teaching that God gives material things for those who tithe... Just doesn't sit right with me.

Some folks give only when they don't have to make any lifestyle alterations and some people don't give at all. That is between them and God.

As for those who receive these gifts... The Apostle Paul sets the bar pretty high when he says in reference to a liberal gift that was given.. 2 Cor. 8:21 "for we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord, but also in the eyes of men." I'd say that many Churches of all denominations have done a poor job of managing the money that God has entrusted to them.. Just my opinion

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Okay Gents...

Let's get down to the 'niity-gritty'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've been tithing for over 20 years (since I was 17yrs old.) My original church was in Hawaii, where my father, AND mother-in-law were the main preachers.

Since moving away, I've attended (but never officially joined) several different 'Assembly of God' or 'Baptist' churches. This over a period of those 20 years.

Sometimes we tithe to the church we attend, and sometime we tithe to our 'parent' church. Any thoughts on subject?

Quite frankly, we KNOW that our tithing has been a constant source of blessing towards us. I have NO doubt that the Lord blesses us for our tithing, and no matter how broke, we will always do so.


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Hey BW--

Great to see you here. A few thoughts and I always stand correction well and am continuing to learn.

If I'm not mistaken, tithing is an OT concept and is not mentioned except maybe once referring to something else (Christ dressing down the pharisees about their legalism in Matthew), in the NT. We are no longer constained by the law of the tenth under grace-in fact you are FREE to give more, much more if so moved.

As far as where or to whom, I remind myself that the body of Christ is is not limited to your or my own local assembly but is anywhere and everywhere and where you hear of and percieve a need and are moved to give, that in my view is giving to the church.

Have a great day in Alaska; it's ok in Iowa too

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BW,

I was waiting for a response out of you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The fact that you tithe 10% is a commendable thing. Not many folks would be willing to do that. Shoot, if you did not make that sacrifice for the Lord, you would be driving around in a 30ft drop bow instead of a 22ft drop bow. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The Lord has been blessing you and will continue to bless you for what you do. Shoot, the Lord has blessed you with a daughter who is one of the most respectible kids at Sitka High. Many men only wish they had a family like yours.
I have a problem with Pastors and evangelists who preach that God will return money with money. I have heard that some say that God will return sevenfold what we give. In other words, a gift of 100 dollars will return 700 dollars. We can't obligate God like that. God might entrust us with more money because we have proved trustworthy and good stewards, but that is up to God.

My new job in paradise is funded solely on the gifts of people. If people don't give to Paradise Young Life, then I don't get paid and kids don't go to camp. But, God has already worked in the hearts of many people to give money and support my work. If those people said giving was a legalistic thing and was no longer required, then my mission, as well as most other Churches and missions would not be able to operate. At the advent of the new covenant, the keeping of the Law as a requirement for salvation was done away with. Christ fulfilled the requirments of the Law with His death and resurrection. The law itself was not done away with. The law shows us what is pleasing to God and what sin is. Therefore, not giving 10% does not condem us, but giving 10% is pleasing to God. We aim to please God, so many people give 10%.

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Tithing did not originate under the Law. Tithing was before the Law. (but confirmed under the Law).

Bonzi, I also have a problem with the blab it grab it preachers who live in 10,000 sq. ft. homes. But, what does the word say about giving?

Blessing or Cursing Malachi 3:8-10
Blessing or cursing automatically follows tithing and offering to the Lord. It is what God says that counts, not our opinions of it. Those who say they cannot afford to tithe really cannot afford NOT to tithe. Man cannot afford not to pay income tax,
otherwise there is greater debt to be paid. God follows thea same principle. It is not for Himself, but His laws for your blessing that are at stake. God can make the $9 go further than the $10 if we do not rob Him of His tithe. In Haggai's time they put "money in to a bag with holes in it" (Haggai 1).
With what measure we meet, it will be measured to us. Give and it shall be given, is a Divine principle (Luke 6:38)

The curse does not come without a cause Proverbs 26:2. The
cause for the curse often is lack of paying tithes, the sin of robbing God. I dont view it as tithing verses grace, I veiw it
as tithing under grace.
The Lord says He changes not. Some seek to change God and teach that tithing is no longer for today. The Lord does not change. This is placed relative to the Scripture on tithing.
Christ has an unchanging Priesthood,
Isreal was accused of robbing God, in tithes and offerings.
Ignorance was no excuse.
Tithes were to be brought to the storehouse (church) Not to the poor, overseas, OR to parachurch oraganizations. The
storehouse is the place where I am spiritually fed and cared for by the ministry.
There would be meat in God's house. i.e. Spiritual food. The ministers could tread out the corn to feed the people.
God says to prove Him as to His rewards and blessings for tithers and givers.
The blessings would be on the land. The devourer (satan) would be rebuked if they would give to Goed what is His.
Tithing honours God, Proverbs 3:9, 10 The Word of God says
Honour the Lord with the firstfruits of they substance, so shall thy barns be filled with plenty and presses with new wine.
And Yes I believe all the above applies for today in this age,
not another dispensation.

New Testament Financial Order
It should be remembered that the early believers were mostly converts from the Old Covenant Church. They already knew the principle of tithes and offerings, so these things did not have to be re-taught. They continued the same principles. The principle of tithes and offerings WAS NOT nailed to the cross! They continued to do as they had under the Mosaic Covenant in principle. For, tithes and offerings were before the Mosaic Covenant, but amplified more so under it. The New Covenant continues the Abrahamic Covenant in Christ.

The Lord prophesied of the New Convenant Jeremiah 31:31-34
Hebrews 8, 2 Corinthians 3:3-14. Now if tithing had originate under the Old Covenant, and the Old Covenant was abolished, done away with, cancelled, then we could truly say that tithing was abolished. But tithing was under Abraham
and the only priesthood he knew about, which was Melchisedek.
The believer is under the New Covenant, and the Melchisedek Priesthood and is the seed of Abraham through Christ, thus
tithing continues in the New Covenant community.

These are just the ramblings of a ignorant pentecostal, if
I'm wrong in my thinking then please correct me. That is, with the word and not an opinion.

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SU35,
This is one confusing subject that requires a good deal of thought. It is definately making me hit The Book <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I agree that God and His Word does not change. But, God's Covenants with His people has. It is vital that a person has an understanding of what happened to the old covenant when the new was brought in by Christ, otherwise a valid interpretation of the Old Testiment would be impossible. "By calling this first one "new", he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) I am sure that you have a healthy understanding of the two covenants, so i will not waste time in explaining them. Now, if a curse was still the result of ill giving as it was in Malachi, are we under the old covenant, or the new covenant? Curses and blessings by actions are a result of the Law. Are we not trampling on the blood of Christ if we preach a legalistic requirment of a tithe for fear of a curse? "First he said, 'sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them' then he said, 'here I am, I have come to do your will. He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all."
Hebrews 10:8-10

Proverbs 3:9,10 I agree that tithing honors God.. When we honor God with our wealth,our very best, the "firstfruits", we will be open to recieve the blessings of God. God demands nothing but the best of us.

It is risky to say that most of the new believers were customary with Jewish law.. Paul's ministery was to the Gentiles. I take my position from 2 Corinthians. Paul is encouraging the collection. 8:8 "I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by compairing it with the earnestness of others." If those folks were in risk of a curse, Paul would have commanded them out of love to give to avoid such a curse. There giving was dependant on their hearts, not on a Blessing/curse system.

You are correct that the Abrahamic covenant still exists. Those two covenants said nothing about tithing. Abram gave 10% of his plunders to Melchizedek. This was a customary thing to do in Abrahams day, as archeology has shown. (Mari tablets) Who Melchizedek was is completely another can of Worms, which I will not open. I do not see anything in the account of Abraham that would make us legal binding to tithe. (I say legal because of the consequences of a curse.)

These are just the ramblings of a Reformer.. if i'm wrong, correct me.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> with the Bible of course <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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SU35-

What about circumcision? This came before the Mosaic law also yet Paul uses it as the example all throughout his letter to the Galatians. So more to the point- how do you reconcile bringing the 10% to the "storehouse" to avoid the curse in the light of Ephesians, (blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus) and Galatians- (ye are fallen from grace- Christ is become of no effect unto you...)

As posted before by another- there are several places in the New Testament where an authoritive teaching on tithing was in order (if it were still binding) ie., Paul's revival in Ephesus as recorded in Acts, and 2nd Cor. 8-9 in Paul's long dissertation on giving.

In the Ephesus example Paul never demands a tithe or teaches on it. It is just the opposite. He works with his hands as the "great man of God," as an example, and is chargeable to no one as a witness. Yet he laments that greivious wolves will arise from within the church not sparing the flock...

In the disseration on giving in 2nd Cor 8-9- take a yellow hi lite pen and mark every time Paul uses the word "grace"

That teaching by Paul and his empahsis on grace is what opened my eyes. Legalistic tithing, lest ye be cursed is anathema to the entire New Testament. BUT! The anathema we must fear and tremble before is found two fold in Galatians chapter one. We don't hear much about being redeemed from the curse of the gospel...

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Wow! What a great thread this has turned out to be. When SU35 speaks I become immediately convinced of his viewpoint, but then come to question it when Dix and Master B chime in. Don't know what to think now. Great discussion, though. I thought SU35s point about first fruits was excellent, as well as his point regarding the order of Malchesadec, under which Jesus "is a priest forever." But then Dix and Master B make equally excellent points. Let's resolve this thing.



P.S. would one or all of you comment on Acts Chapter 5 regarding this issue? I don't know quite what to make of it in regards to tithing vs a curse. My impression has always been that they agreed to give a percentage (I assumed 10%) of the procedes from the sale of some property they owned. After the sale, however, they decided to lie about how much they got for it, so the amount of the tithe would be less, and their personal profit more. This was, however, lying to the Holy Spirit, and they were both punished with death, which had the appearance of a curse.

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I dont have a lot of time to go into it now. But did Jesus teach tithing when He said "Render unto God, what is God's"?

and unto caeser what is caesers". Tithes and taxes. Think about it.



MB, Very good points you brought up same with DF.

I was refering to the early church in Jersulem when I said

early converts.



Let's continue...

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Quote
I dont have a lot of time to go into it now. But did Jesus teach tithing when He said "Render unto God, what is God's"?

and unto caeser what is caesers". Tithes and taxes. Think about it.



MB, Very good points you brought up same with DF.

I was refering to the early church in Jersulem when I said

early converts.



Let's continue...
SU35, I cannot say I agree with your interpretation of Jesus's words there. I had always felt He meant that we owed God obedience and love, and money was what we owed Caesar. Doesn't seem right to say that God wants (or needs) money. In fact, Jesus was saying that ALL the money belonged to Caesar (it ALL had his picture on it), so He couldn't have meant that God wanted ANY of it.

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