Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Military M-16 Days Are Numbered ?

I heard on conserative talk radio last week about the impending demise of the M-16, it's being replaced by one made by HK of Germany as the standard issue firearm. They (Heckler & Koch) are building a manufacturing plant in Columbus, GA., this may be old news to many of you here but it was news to me, so I went on a search and quickly found this web page. Interesting looking critter, H&K XM8

that looks like something you would step in out in the yard. maybe that will make the left over scrap parts cheaper for us that enjoy the better things in life. i could get used to carrying a little carbine with my 1911 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I haven't heard that, which means absolutely nothing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />. I know that Remington and SOCOM (Special Operations Command) are working on a together on a new cartridge the 6.8mm SPC (Special Purpose Cartridge). I've read a few articles that said it will/should work in the current M16A2 & A4 as well as the M4A2 & A4 which are basically the same rifles the M4 is a shorter version. They said a barrel, bolt assembly change and a few other mod's are all that is neccesary.

Muzzle energy is-
14.5 inch barrel (M4A2)
5.56mm NATO 62 gr. = 1041 ft. lbs.
6.8mm SPC 115 gr. = 1726 ft. lbs.

20 inch barrel (M16A2)
5.56mm NATO 62 gr. = 1323 ft. lbs.
6.8mm SPC 115 gr. = 1896 ft. lbs.

Sounds like a winner to me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The first thing that I thought of upon seeing the picture of this weapon was the Super Soaker waterguns my grandsons play with. I remember the look of the M-16 being laughed at also, you know, the old made by Mattell jokes, and so on. I don't have a clue what they will do with the old M-16's and the spare parts. Because of selective fire capability, they might sell them for scrap iron or give them to Iraq police, or some third world country, it's anybodys guess. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ......joken2

Third world countries and their people know more about the M-16 than the average citizen in this country does. To think we could sell this piece of junk is truly laughable.



Here's the idea, maybe we can get Jr. Bush to have his daughters enlist in the military train/ arm them with an M-16 and send them to Iraq to be diplomats in public relations. LOL

The talk show guest did mention possibly a new cal. to go w/ the new rifle but not go into any detail about it. They also said the Marines are going to stay w/M-16, they offered some theories why, but I better not repeat them because knowing me, I'll tell it all wrong. We will probably be hearing more about the H&K weapon in the coming months,.... pros & cons. .......joken2

"Here's the idea, maybe we can get Jr. Bush to have his daughters enlist in the military train/ arm them with an M-16 and send them to Iraq to be diplomats in public relations."



There is upside to my suggestion, then Daddy Bush along with the rest of his ****ing family can all have Thanksgiving dinner together this year. Just think Jr. wouldn't be laughing and making jokes about not being able to find weapons of mass destruction around the White House anymore.

I can't see them getting rid of the M16 & M4 rifles. Specially if they can be "updated" so to say. Thats just "my opinion".

Heckler & Koch is one of the finest firearms manufactures in the world. If they did choose to go this route at least their looking a "top-notch" manufacture! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hello!This is Jagoff's son.The XM8 can do nothing that the M16/M4A1 cannot do.It is front heavy, the sights suck(not personal experience,people who tried it said so) and if anyone complains about velocity from an M4 barrel(14.5 inches) WTF makes the people at HK think 12 inches is better?!The marines just bought alot of brand new M16A4s.The XM8 to me is a lost cause.WOW, its 1 pound lighter.The people at HK realized this and made a M4 with a normal gas system.Even with a Vltor light stock it is still front heavy and as heavy as a Colt 20" HBar(8 lbs).In fact I heard one person in the army is field testing the XM8.He don't like it.Sorry for the rant,just thought you might like to hear the XM8 progress.Not meaning to make anyone mad,or be respectful to anyone.
Thanks for reading,Tyler

Hi ! Jagoff's son ,
I'm amazed with your knowledge of weapons (M-16) considering you're only 13. LOL

Hello!Well,thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />!Unless your making fun of me.If you are thats not cool <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />.I've been researching military weapons for a couple of years now and have been folowing the XM8 ever since I first saw it.Oh,Larry,why don't you like the M16 anyways?Did you have a bad experience or something?Just wondering.....

Thanks,Tyler

Here's Hack's take on the XM8 (From sftt.org).
Kirt

By David H. Hackworth



The plastic, no-account M-16 rabbit shooter that our Army warriors have painfully packed since early in the Vietnam War might at long last be on its way out.

I can only say �good riddance� to a bad rifle that�s been outmatched by the Soviet AK-47 since Ho Chi Minh became Enemy No. 1. I condemned it in my first after-action report while I was with the 1/101st Airborne in Vietnam in 1965, but � in spite of many such complaints across the decades from trigger-pullers wading through the world�s killing fields � that lousy sucker has remained in service longer than any other rifle in U.S. history. A shameful testimony to the power of generations of military-industrial-congressional-complex porkers.

The M-16 and its popgun cousin, the M-4 carbine, have neither the range nor the bang. Nor is their tiny 5.56-mm slug much of a grunt morale multiplier. Ask the Rangers who fought in Somalia how many insurgents they drilled � and drilled again � who just kept coming.

The hot contender currently being tested by the Army to replace these lemons is the XM-8, a revolutionary smart-weapon being put through its paces by professionals who, so far, give it two thumbs up. It�s a different kind of rifle, lighter and less expensive, yet it offers additional features and performance not available in any other assault rifle in the world.

For instance, the XM-8 is a flexible system easily converted into a carbine, and there�s a sharpshooter version for increased range, an automatic-rifle version for more squad firepower and the ultra-compact carbine variant for close-in fighting or use by armored-vehicle crewmen.

Whiz-bang options include an easily attachable single-shot 40 mm grenade launcher with side-opening breech and a lightweight 12-gauge shotgun module. Either system can be quickly added to the XM-8 in the field without the need for special tools.

Think of it as a 2005 Mercedes replacing a 1970s Ford Pinto. But that�s only if we�re talking an XM-8 with an upgraded 6.8-mm slug that can put an enemy down and keep him there. That�s what is needed to give our soldiers confidence in their primary fighting weapon.

The best serving master gunner I know says this about the 6.8-mm upgrade that Special Forces is presently reviewing: �If we are going to go through the cost of providing a Mercedes like the XM-8, we should be prepared to put Pirelli tires on it.� He asks, �You wouldn�t want to have a Mercedes but run it on low-octane gas, so why have a Mercedes-quality rifle and run it on 5.56?�

Should the XM-8 get green-lighted, Germany's Heckler & Koch plans to build a factory to produce it in Columbus, Ga. Unlike so many companies exporting jobs overseas these days, H&K touts this as its �Buy American� project.

If everything clicks, the new weapon could start getting into our grunts� hands as early as 2005 � and at last our soldiers will have a rifle that's GI-proof. For starters, it's not a jammer. Carbon doesn�t build up inside the receiver group, which greatly reduces the need for cleaning. It also has a battery-powered sight right out of James Bond�s inventory that includes a red-dot infrared-laser illuminator and a close-combat optic system with a backup etched reticle that�s factory-zeroed.

And last, but far from least, it shoots faster then the Terminator � it can fire more than 15,000 rounds without lubrication or cleaning, and tests show that it works as smoothly as a sewing machine in desert environments, which should make the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan a whole lot happier.

These days there�s a lot of flag-waving going down about supporting the troops. But the best way to take care of our grunts is by making sure they can outgun their opponents. And no way is that happening when we allow greedy or uncaring pork contractors, no-time-in-the-trenches engineers and folks in Congress and at the highest level of our armed forces to stick them with a worthless, Mattel-like excuse for a rifle.

With the upgraded XM-8, our warriors will finally have a weapon that will do as good a job punching holes in enemy soldiers in the 21st century as the M-1 and Browning Automatic Rifles did in the 20th.

The address of David Hackworth's home page is Hackworth.com. Sign in for the free weekly Defending America column at his Web site. Send mail to P.O. Box 11179, Greenwich, CT 06831. His newest book is �Steel My Soldiers� Hearts.�

� 2004 David H. Hackworth. Please send Feedback responses to [email]dwfeedbackyahoo.com.[/email]

Yeah,and don't forget the quick change barrel,there goes the zero on your sights.Oh and holy s***,did they ever think that plastic melts under heat?!That already happened to the G36(which it is based on) many times.BTW,how often do you see Navy SEALs with AK rifles?I see M4A1 Carbines.The truth is the M4 is the most versatile system out there currently.You name something you cant put on a M4!I'll give you a nice list of things you CAN put on...

1.Night vision
2.Scopes
3.Vertical forward grips
4.Suppresors
5.Flashlights
6.Lasers
7.Bayonet

Oh,and did I mention there are sniper variants of the M16 called SPRs?Then you can swap uppers and lowers to make your own custom AR.And that sniper version,thats what snipers are for!!Sniper rifles!!M40A1,M24,M82A1,etc...Come on.Think about it,that sand in Iraq will make anything mechanical go bad.Even the mighty AK47 cant handle the sand in Iraq!!!Even the Hummers need a good cleaning after going through that sand.WTF makes anyone think that the XM8 will do any better.And what are you going to do when the Xm8 sight breaks?NO BACK UP IRON SIGHTS!!!Thats why Marines have an aimpoint(that has 1 year of battery life)and the Knights Armament BUIS(Back Up Iron Sight).The XM8 is a FALIURE.The .223 is a fine caliber for combat.You don't want to blow up the guys at the recieving end of your fire,do you?.223 lets you carry more ammo,with less recoil.Sure the M16 had problems at its start but when you keep it clean(not hard to do)it will keep you alive.Go ahead people,if you dont agree with me,tell me why you think the XM8 is the next big thing.Until then,let the M16 reign over all military rifles <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />.

Thanks,Tyler

BTW,Bend this is not directed at you,just saying everything I know about the XM8.

No offense taken. I just gave one learned man's opinion. BTW, you should have been around during the M14/M16 swapout discussions. Now those where some heated discussions! Also, many SEALS carry AK's, you just may not have seen them photographed with them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Kirt
US Navy (Retired)

"Buy American" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />, the XM8 is gonna be about as "American made" as a Glock (which I love) or a Beretta. The "parts" will be "manufactured over sea's" and they will be "assembled in the United States". The parts that make up a Glock pistol are manufactured in Austria. Glock ships them to the United States. They assemble them here to comply with federal firearm laws, especially the "import laws". If they make them in the U.S. they don't have to deal with this. Same thing for Beretta. There manufactured in Italy and assembled in the U.S. Plus when Beretta bid on the contract to make pistol's for the U.S. military, they had to be made in the U.S. Assemble them here, and there made here I guess.

Heckler & Koch cares as much about being "American" so to say as Toyota does $$$$$$$$$$$$<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Hello!Exactly!!!HK got a bajillion dollars.Think of what Colt could have done with the M4A1 with that money!!!Oh,about the SEALs and AKs thing,don't they just do that on super special occasions?Otherwise wouldn't they have a "AK-74 SOPMOD Kit"?Anyways,when HK started the OICW project,That project was COOOOOOOL!!!Then the lowest weight they could get it to was 14 lbs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />.So they stopped it.But they still wanted money!!So whip some plastic with a barrel together and.......SHABAM!!!!!Theres the XM8.Futuristic looking,well,thats about all I can think of as a compliment.But bend,do you agree the M4A1 is the most versatile system out there?If anyone doesn't agree,all I ask for is the rifle thats more vertasile than the M16A4/M4A1.

Thanks,Tyler Gorski

I wouldn't count the M16 series out yet, the Marine Corps plans on keeping it until at least 2008. My Bn just picked up a load of brand new M16A4s. Considering the M16A2s we had until this month arrived at the unit in 1985 I wouldn't expect to see the A4s go away too soon.

As Tyler points out the OICW project was ongoing for a number of years before it got scrapped, the whole time we heard our next battle rifle was on the way. Now we hear of this new wonder, the XM8, and how it's so great. Amazingly most of the claims on reliability echo those from the adoption of the M16 many years ago (needless to say I am skeptical).

There are many issues with the M4/M16 and why as separate weapons they are liked in some areas and not others. Much of this comes down to bulk issuing carbines to light infantry troops and then sending them into combat in areas where the shorter barrel becomes a liability (Afghanistan, where engagement ranges were beyond 250m) while troops in Iraq are begging for carbines because they tend to ride in vehicles and engagement ranges are generally under 200m.

Bob

"But bend,do you agree the M4A1 is the most versatile system out there?"

It may be the hottest thing since sliced bread with a mulitude of bells and other dingers BUT it is NOT doing the job it was/is intended for, effective killing. At least in its current use environment. That is why SOF is looking for a more effective round and another platform to launch it. As Hack pointed out, targets are still able to be dangerous after being hit. Remember the 38 cal in the Phillipines during the Spanish/American War?
Kirt

Hello!But the they have already made a 6.8 upper for the M16.BAM!!!There ya go.I personally like the .223.So does my dad. Most engagement ranges in combat(from what I heard)are less than 100 yds.Isn't that where the M4 shines?Sure the barrel just drains the velocity from the .223.But the M4 wasn't designed for long range.Sure it will jam.But so will AK47s when thet Iraq sand gets in the action.I have some of that sand in my house(in a little bottle).It is by far the finest sand I ever did see!!!As I said before even Hummers stop fuctioning after too much of that crap.The USMC still like the M16,why else would they have ordered enough to resuply most of the units?BTW,I don't know about the .38 cal in that phillipines war.But I guess you mean it didn't stop what it hit.Well then make the M4 6.8 if nned be.Thats fine with me if thats what will stop those fanatical worshipors of Saddam in Iraq.

Thanks,Tyler

Discussions about the M16 series rifles tend to go in 2 different directions without actually diverging. I think they should be kept separate and addressed so.

First, is the M16 series rifle a good Assault Rifle? Yes, arguably it is among the best. It is more than accurate enough beyond normal battle ranges, it has good ergonomics (if you're right handed at least), and it is reliable. Addressing my last comment; in the beginning there were issues, some related to training (or promises from the designer), some related to ammunition, some related to logistics, but today we find the platform is among the most reliable. There are still some issues with the M4, but they are being addressed also.

Second, is the 5.56mm round a good battle round? Probably not, it was when originally loaded with a 55gr slug that tended to tumble, but the 62gr AP round simply fails to do that. For some reason we adopted a round that penetrates body armor at long range when we are one of very few nations that issue body armor to all troops. Would an increase in caliber serve us well? Yes, but there are inherent issues with that also; (1) weight, in 1991 I carried 13 loaded mags for my M16; (2) mag capacity, current mags hold 25 rounds in 6.8mm and logistically it would be a nightmare getting longer mag pouches for everyone (imagine the cost!!); (3) recoil, I'm sure the 6.8 isn't going to recoil much compared to what many hunters are used to, but since it's difficult enough to keep all 3 rounds in a silhouette target at 50m with a 5.56 can it be done with a 6.8?

The platform and the round it's chambered in are two separate subjects. Like saying the Remington 700 in 22-250 is not a good deer rifle. Sure the 700 is, but perhaps the 22-250 is not a good deer cartridge.

I'm sure the M16 is on it's way out, eventually. So is the M1 tank for that matter.

Bob