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I was looking at my rifles the other night, daydreaming about hunts past and I got to thinking about the failure issue with A Bolts. I know there are some guys here at the fire who swear up and down that they are junk. I just don't remember what the reasons are for their dislike of A Bolts. As far as accuracy they are as good as any and better than a lot. They do have shiny stocks and gold triggers, but who can't like a little bling on their rifle. They have junk bottom metal - but so do Rugers. Not looking to start an arguement here (I plan to just read comments from here out), just curious as to what the failure issues with the A Bolts are. Never hurts to be aware of problems that are historically present with what you're using I guess.

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I have hunted with them on and off for twenty years,I have never had one fail me in any way.

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Just talked with an employee of Sportsmans who guides part time in Alaska. His A bolt, 375 H&H has failed to fire several times while in the bush. He guides mainly for moose where there are lot's of bear. He's dumping the rifle and buying a CZ.

He also stated that the metal parts on his rifle rusted easily.






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Originally Posted by ruraldoc

I have hunted with them on and off for twenty years,I have never had one fail me in any way.


What ruraldoc said, but I have been using my oldest A Bolt almost 25 years and it still works great and has given zero problems.


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For the most part, I think Abolts are fine when they are cared for, but if neglected, even a little bit, they'll mess you up when you least expect it. Seems like most of the complaints come from guys in Alaska. My only actual experience with the Abolt is in working on a Stainless .338 Win Mag that my buddy from Alaska used for 5-7 years while guiding. It failed to fire while he was hunting deer for himself and when he went to see if he still had the safety on or what the problem was, it fired by itself after he had removed his finger from the trigger. He typically loans out his rifle to clients, so knew he couldn't have that. I gave him my M70 stainless to use while I fixed his Abolt. He guides and outfits for Brown Bear so spends a lot of time near salt water. The corrosion within the trigger, not to mention all the sand, dirt, etc. had caused the trigger to fail. I replaced it with a Moyers adjustable trigger. The area of the receiver where the trigger group attaches was cracked, but was easily welded and repaired. The chamber was scratched from sand, dirt, etc., but that was polished out. The fancy scissoring magazine lifter was corroded and busted and the spring that holds the magazine to the floor plate was also corroded/busted. When I finished, it shot well and he now has that to back up his M70. Keep in mind that this is a guy that treats his rifle harshly, as a tool. He likes the M70 since it can handle being submerged in a river and swished clean of all the sand he has accumulated over a hunt! This is the type of guy who will run into trouble with an Abolt. Most average hunters would have few problems, I would think.
Test

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test1328

I don't own an Abolt and can't claim personal knowledge of them, however I'm not tracking on your "I think Abolts are fine when they are cared for, but if neglected, even a little bit, they'll mess you up when you least expect it." The example of the Abolt you gunsmithed back into service was severely neglected by its owner!

Are other models of rifles still reliable after being as abused for 5-7 years as your alaskan friend did to his Abolt? The way I see it having an Abolt be reliable for five plus years would be a complement to Browning. Am I missing something? What models of guns in your experience do you recomend?

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Yeah, your missing it. A simpler trigger group wouldn't have failed.


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ranger1 Offline OP
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So the problem is with the trigger?

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idahoguy,
I'm sorry I wasn't more specific about how a different rifle design might better withstand such treatment.

Because my friend did not have time to purchase a new rifle, scope, etc. and get it sighted in in time before his first hunters arrived, I gave him my Win. M70 .338 stainless classic that I used on my Brown Bear hunt, along with 40 rounds of handloads using 250 grain Swift Aframes. The rifle was sighted in for these loads and ready to go. It also had a VariX-III 2.5-8 scope on it. That was 9 years ago, I think, and he's been using it ever since in the same manner that he always has. He swears up and down that that rifle is the most reliable, dependable, best designed rifle ever made because he knows that he abuses his rifles and he is amazed that it still goes bang every time. Besides him carrying it for bear hunts, he uses it for moose, and takes it on every goat hunt that he guides since many of his clients are bow hunters. After seeing how difficult it is to arrow a billy, many of them readily use his .338 to shoot their goats. He cleans the rifle once a year, usually in December after all of his hunting is done. He claims he has never had to adjust the scope or do anything to it other than clean it up once a year. He still loads to the same handload recipe that I came up with originally and says it shoots to point of aim, usually within 1.5" at 100 yards. So, long story short, the M70 stainless seems to be capable of withstanding the same treatment as the Abolt for almost twice as long without any problems and it is still going strong.

I think BW has it right, since the biggest reason for the original failure of my friend's Abolt was the trigger group problem and failure. All of the other things that I mentioned would not really keep you from firing the rifle, they were just little things that can be annoying. The problem, as I see it, is the trigger group has a closed housing where dirt, sand, water, etc. can collect. Over time, pieces within the trigger group corrode and rust and then fail or bind up enough to prevent firing. The old M70 has an open trigger design that makes it extremely difficult to collect dirt in any part of the system and if it does, it is easily seen and can be cleaned readily. This is one reason, among others, that you have heard such an outcry on this board about the NEW MOA trigger on the SC Winchester M70's. The new trigger group is a closed system, very much like Brownings, which a lot of people see as potential for problems down the road.

I still say that for the average Joe hunter that cares for his rifle, keeps it clean, etc. and that may only hunt in inhospitable climates for 1-2 weeks in his life, that the Abolt will be just fine and will serve him well. They are very accurate rifles from my limited experience of only 2 Abolts. I just don't think it is the best rifle to have along with you if you're going to be carrying it everyday into the Alaskan bush (or similar) for years on end.

Hope this explains things and helps you out.
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If memory serves me correctly, I have heard about the bolt head coming loose, or breaking off, from the bolt body; but again, I may be completely wrong about that.

Can anybody else elaborate?

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The idea of NOT being meticulous about rifle maintenance, especially when you hunt in big bear country, is completely foreign to me. I dont care what make and model your rifle is, it is a given that you perform preventive maintenance on it. All rifles are mechanical devices and all mechanical devices will fail if neglected long enough.

The "Brand A is better than Brand B because Brand A can be neglected longer" argument makes me laugh. Every one of my rifles leaves home for every hunt in tip top working order every time.


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The biggest problem is the trigger built of mixed pedigree metals. It rusts rapidly and especially a wire connector linkage. This causes the trigger to bind, usually in a fail-to-fire mode.

The number of parts in both the bolt and trigger group is excessive, metalurgy uncertain. That is a recipe for problems.

As I have stated repeatedly, I have limited A-Bolt time, yet they have failed more times in my presence than all other brands and models combined.

I own an A-Bolt in 375. I know a guide using an A-Bolt in 375 and he does not baby it. He has close to 20 years on it and it has worked fine in bad salty conditions. The trigger parts do not rust and corrode in his rifle... The uncertainty of the metalurgy is the issue, I believe.

I own quite a few Brownings of other models and have nothing against Browning, other than the A-Bolt...
art


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I have seen pristine, well-oiled A-Bolts fail in less than a week with reasonable care. None of the failures I have personally witnessed could possibly be written off to neglect...
art


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Lodgepole,

Glad you at least got a laugh! <grin>

As a client, it is easy to sit back and say, "well my rifle is in perfect working order and I have never neglected it and never would. It always gets cleaned after every day." However, as a guide/outfitter, as you probably know, they have a lot of other worries, headaches, etc. to deal with besides looking after their rifle. The problem is compounded by the fact that many of them spend weeks and/or months out in the bush in the rain/snow with only a tent and one hunter/client after another. So, most of the guys that I know in this profession jump at anything that will save them some time and make their lives a little simpler and this includes rifles that they don't have to baby, clean, and inspect every single day to make sure that it will operate as expected.

As I've alluded to, if you want to hunt with an Abolt, be my guest, and I'll never have anything bad to say about anyone who does. I was just sharing my experience and admittedly limited knowledge. However, I will say that Sitka deer appears to have greater knowledge than myself and has reached a similar conclusion.

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Originally Posted by test1328
For the most part, I think Abolts are fine when they are cared for, but if neglected, even a little bit, they'll mess you up when you least expect it. Seems like most of the complaints come from guys in Alaska. My only actual experience with the Abolt is in working on a Stainless .338 Win Mag that my buddy from Alaska used for 5-7 years while guiding. It failed to fire while he was hunting deer for himself and when he went to see if he still had the safety on or what the problem was, it fired by itself after he had removed his finger from the trigger. He typically loans out his rifle to clients, so knew he couldn't have that. I gave him my M70 stainless to use while I fixed his Abolt. He guides and outfits for Brown Bear so spends a lot of time near salt water. The corrosion within the trigger, not to mention all the sand, dirt, etc. had caused the trigger to fail. I replaced it with a Moyers adjustable trigger. The area of the receiver where the trigger group attaches was cracked, but was easily welded and repaired. The chamber was scratched from sand, dirt, etc., but that was polished out. The fancy scissoring magazine lifter was corroded and busted and the spring that holds the magazine to the floor plate was also corroded/busted. When I finished, it shot well and he now has that to back up his M70. Keep in mind that this is a guy that treats his rifle harshly, as a tool. He likes the M70 since it can handle being submerged in a river and swished clean of all the sand he has accumulated over a hunt! This is the type of guy who will run into trouble with an Abolt. Most average hunters would have few problems, I would think.
Test




I read thru this several times, shaking my head..my only comment would be, if you allow ANY GUN to be subjected to this level of care and maintinance and lack of careful cleaning and inspection,...well other than maybe an AK47 ...then your likely to have problems
a cleaning kit, careful inspection every night,and cleaning with a can of WD40, some gun oil, a few patches and brushes, a cleaning rod, screw drivers and having a stainless gun with a synthetic stock can go a long way toward preventing problems, in the field, IVE used a synthetic stocked stainless A-bolt in 375H&H on several ELK HUNTS and found it does its job quite well.
yes its a bit heavier than nesessary but thats not always bad in a 375 H&H

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For the most part I don't know that they are junk. My cousin has a 25wssm that is junk. It jams and don't feed properly. It has been sent back to Browning and still don't feed well. I can hate a tool that don't function like it should. I also can't stand those cheesy clip/magazine things they use. I'm weird like that as I prefer ADL style. I don't like a palm swell but that's me. I guess other than the clip,if the gun works like it should I should not have a problem with them, but I do -grin-. Aint it good we have choices.



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I bought a used 300 mag A-Bolt in '95 and haven't had any problems with it. I also consider my gun a tool for the job at hand and would say it's used medium to hard.

On the above guide's gun, I would think a lot of guns would start to malfunction in a similar condition.

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I had a 7 Mag in the Gold Medallion offering. Shot wonderfully, but I am certain that the chamber opened up and caused brass to become lodged. Either way I was pounding the bolt open from shooting factory ammo. I got the store to take it back.
Also witnessed first hand a guy coming into a gun store with his trigger gaurd in two pieces, they did nothing for him except offer to send it off to Browning. Only way I got my money back was: they offered to send it off and it was still in the store a week later. I went off on a saturday with a crowded floor. Never will go back to that crap hole. Also won't buy a browning.
They are good looking guns and they shoot accurately but so do my rugers and remingtons.


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Originally Posted by Carolina Shooter
Also won't buy a browning.
They are good looking guns and they shoot accurately but so do my rugers and remingtons.


Good point. Browning impresses me bout as much as Under Armor. They both work I guess,but you got better options for same money.



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"...and cleaning with a can of WD40,..."

I guarantee you a ruined Alaska hunt if you keep that up. WD-40 has no use in gun cleaning and the gum it builds will catch you sooner or later...

"...several ELK HUNTS..."

What, is that supposed to be tough for a rifle to handle? As argument I lose where that means anything. Also, I pointed to a rifle with hundreds of times more time afield in far worse conditions functioning perfectly. Not all A-Bolts fail immediately around saltwater... Just enough to make them a poor choice, IME&O, with far more than 3 hunts behind one...
art


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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