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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by MightyPeace


I totally agree with this statement. If you are buying a 300WM to do 450yrd shots, I would first learn/practice how to call elk, bring them in (thats the fun part) and stalk to within closer ranges to make a good clean kill.
...


Problem is, they don't always come and getting closer is not always an option.


And for some of us, shooting cleanly and well at 400 or 450 yards is MORE fun than calling them in, even if we could. Not wrong or morally inferior, just different and both are OK. BTW, my #1 meat getter Elk rifle is a 8mm rem mag case necked up to .338 cal. Works great with Barnes 225gr TTSX's at 3150fps.


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According to Federal factory ballistics, the .300 mag adds about 300 FPS to a 180 gr bullet. That equals about 150 yards.
With elk, on public land, I want them down fast.
On a broadside elk, eather calibur will do it, but will someone tell me where to find these elk that always stand broadside for you ?
Why take the chance on penatration issues ? If you can shoot the mag, shoot the mag, loaded with Partitions or the like.


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Originally Posted by MightyPeace

And a GREAT BULL he was/is on your wall!

As for Rackmastr's bull he was in wide open prairie with no cover to stalk closer with out being seen would be my guess and from reading his posts on alot of hunting forums, I believe he knows his rifles.

I think too many people are watching those long shot kill videos at 800yrds and think they can do it. To me its unethical at those distances (800). I bet they don show those poor hit and no recovery animals.



That was the case MightyPeace. The bull was slightly spooked and was slowly moving away in an open draw. I had plenty of time to get ready and range him, get prone on my pack, and make the shot. If he had been much further I would have had to wait and attempt another stalk. I kinda set a limit of 350 yards as about my 'max' so thats why I stated I was 'lucky'. Lucky to just have a bull of that magnitude close enough for a shot in the bald prairies of Alberta...lol

Either way, I think you make some really good points about ability and knowing one's ability before attempting shots. I know I dont practice at distances over 400 enough to attempt shots that far. If its further than that, I'm belly crawling like crazy to get closer!

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With the same weight bullet, say 180 grs., the .300 WM gives you about 200-250 fps. more velocity. That means that it's bullet will expand a little further out than the slower, '06 bullet. If that means much to you, then the .300 has an edge.
Since I've had the 160 gr. 7mm Nosler Partition expand quite well at almost 500 yds. when started at 2680 fps out of a .280, I have no doubt that the 180 gr. NP started at 2700-2800 fps. would also.
I would tend to favor the '06 over the .300 due to less recoil in the lighter rifles which I prefer. E


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I read an interesting article where the author stated that with the right powders and lighter bullets {150 gr.} the 308 winchester could actually have a lil more muzzel velocity than a 30-06 but where the 30-06 shines over the 308 is when you start driving the heavy bullets 200 gr. and up the and 308 just does not have enuff fuel tank to launch a heavy bullet with the same authority as the 30-06 and I see this same comparison between the 30-06 and 300 mag...........


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Energy doesn't kill elk and any hunter wobbles much more than 12" across the target when sighted from field positions at 400 yards. These academic debates about "killing power" of various cartridges is entertaining during the off season, but meaningless when chasing critters.

What counts is the hunting and shooting skills of the nut behind the rifle, not what's in the chamber.


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If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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If I were hunting elk and could shoot either of those rifles equally well and they were both the same weight I'd go w/ the 300 Mag.

That having been said, I hate recoil and don't own a belted mag, and wouldn't hesitate to take my 30'06 out after elk. It will, however, have to play back up to my 338'06 which would be my "go to," just as I think yours ought to be the 300.

There is a lot of talk here about long shots (>300 yards) at elk and I have no problem with them as long as the caveats met... that is, as long as I practice like a mad man during the off season and know my limits. My standard (when hunting deer-sized game) for that 5/5 into a pie plate at any given range.

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A 300 win mag simply hammers critters harder at all distances.

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This is proof that viagra and hunting do indeed have lots in common.


"Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right."
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If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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A 30-06 isnt a 300 win mag just as a 30-30 isnt a -06.
Simple concept and it doesnt have anything to do with ones d ic k.

Last edited by BWalker; 04/12/09.
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"They are both very good calibers but Craig Boddington says, minimum calbier for elk is a 30-06 with 180 grain bullet."

Craig is a longtime friend, but I politely disagree. I have shot a few 6x6 bull elk with the .30-06, .the 7mm Remington Magnum, and the .270 Winchester, and all three did the job nicely.

It is impossible to say which is better for the job. There is only one degree of dead.

My personal favorite is the 7 mag with 175-grain Nosler Partition bullets, but that's only because I like to carry it.

Bullet placement is more important than caliber, velocity or weight, maker, or type of bullet.

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There is only one degree of dead.

I agree that shot placement is king, buts its not the whole story.
Shoot a elk with a 22 mag behind the shoulder and it will be dead on its feet. It also might run a mile or more with little to now blood. Now do the same with a 300 win mag with a decent bullet and it might drop in its tracks or make a short run bleeding profusely in the process..

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i took a cow elk at 360 yards with my old 300 saum and 165gr partitions with the muzzle velocity at 2900. I have read where some people push the same bullet up to near 3000 with an 06. For the 06 there are always the light magnum, and high energy loads.

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Originally Posted by BWalker
Quote
There is only one degree of dead.

I agree that shot placement is king, buts its not the whole story.
Shoot a elk with a 22 mag behind the shoulder and it will be dead on its feet. It also might run a mile or more with little to now blood. Now do the same with a 300 win mag with a decent bullet and it might drop in its tracks or make a short run bleeding profusely in the process..


Yea but the question is can you put the bullet where it needs to go at 400 and over with a 300 mag. I can shoot the 300 mags very well, provided that I can take a good steady rest, and i'm not out of breath with my heart going 100mph.

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"I agree that shot placement is king, buts its not the whole story.
Shoot a elk with a 22 mag behind the shoulder and it will be dead on its feet. It also might run a mile or more with little to now blood. Now do the same with a 300 win mag with a decent bullet and it might drop in its tracks or make a short run bleeding profusely in the process.."

With a .22 mag, a shot behind the shoulder would not be proper placement IMHO. I'd aim for where the spine meets the skull.

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Judging by what I have seen if a guy cant shoot a 300 win mag worth a damn, he will not be any better with a 30-06.

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Laker,

I'll say this, you would need to manage your bullet expectations. Given you might shoot from zero to 450 yrds I would choose a 165gr partition for the 30-06 or 180gr in the 300. I know many guys who choose a 180gr pill in a 300 mag and shoot it at everything. It's a close debate, but if you like the heavier bullets, go with the 300 Win.

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billrquimby and BWalker

A couple of friends of mine and I were doing some sighting in before our elk hunt last year. One guy had a 270win, one guy had my 270wsm, and I had my 300saum. At 200 yards neither was hitting very well at first. After doing some flinching drills, the first of which just involved them shooting a round recocking the bolt and dry firing on the empty case. After this first drill both couldn't believe they were flinching as bad as they were even though they knew the gun wasn't going to fire. After awhile of that, I had them hand me the rifle to either load or not load then hand back to them which helped their groups considerably. Now that they were shooting well enough (within a 4in sqare at 200 every time from the bench) I let them have a go with my 300 saum. After only a few shots it was clear that this wasn't an option for them, and yes the flinches had returned. I had a .338 winmag that had me flinching so much with the anticipation of the recoil that I sold it.

It is my experience that the lighter the recoil the more accurate a person is going to shoot. I for instance shoot my .270wsm more accurately than my 300saum, but in my case the difference is so small as to be insignificant; therefore I prefer to hunt elk with the 300.

Incidently after I had shot my cow, I was spotting with them when we spotted a herd 550 yards down hill of a very steep slope. Both of them wanted to shoot, I told them I would beat them both if they did. We needed to get waaaaaay closer. We did, and they both got their elk.

Edited to add: If you shoot a magnum well go for it, the extra power might help, probably won't hurt.

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When my youngest son killed his first elk he did it with a Husky 30.06 and Nosler 180gr partition at a lasered 310 yds. The bull was slowly walking ,his guide gave him the "Shoot" and he did. The bull continued to walk as he put another one in him both right behind the shoulder. He walked maybe 20 yards and fell as Jerry Clower would have put it "Graveyard dead". We walked to the bull and he said "Dad what do you think?" I said "Son, I think you were about 1/4" off on your aim?.
The postmortem was interesting to me because of the damage done in the chest. The heart was severed from the great vessels and the lungs were completely blown up. One bullet was recovered and one penetrated completely.
I don't regard myself as an elk hunting authority but I do consider myself an authority on animal pathology. This elk was dead before he knew it. Brought to earth by a lowly 30.06 and a novice hunter.


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My first elk was killed with a 7mag at 80 yds. Lung shot, sucking chest wound, put a second shot in 2 inches from the first. The bull trotted up and passed me at about 10 yards, went another 20 yards into a copse of trees, where I heard him walking in circles while his lungs filled, then he fell over. Took about 5 minutes. I got a 338mag to put some more "authority" on the subject. With 225 and 250 Noslers that gun has dropped 5 elk cleanly at between 40 and 400 yards, none went more than 10 yards from impact. One, at 325 yards, I put a second shot into because his knee only twitched at first impact. Both shots went into the lung cavity and were killing shots. My last two elk have been with a 300 Win mag shooting Nosler 200's in the Federal High Energy load (no longer manufactured). Just as much "authority" as the 338.
My conclusions after 20 years: 1. Use as much gun as you can comfortably handle. 2. Use a gun and load you have confidence in, even if the confidence is subjective rather than objective, 3. Shoot target pistol to learn trigger control and avoid flinching, 4. Use a PAST recoil reducer for sighting in at the range. You can shoot 5 or 10 shots or more without getting a sore shoulder and starting to flinch. 5. For any shot over 300 yards estimated, use a laser rangefinder and memorize your load's trajectory out to 500 yards. If you don't have time to use it, don't take the shot. 6. If you want to drop an animal in its tracks every time, you have to break the spine or shoulder. A heart/lung shot, with any caliber, usually, but not always, takes a little time. Good hunting to you.

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