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I'm looking to get into black powder shooting and am considering the purchase of the Traditions Pennsylvania Long flint-lock Rifle in .50 caliber with a 40�-inch barrel.

However, I recently noticed that the literature concerning that rifle sez nothing about it having a "swamped" barrel... and I was wondering if those who own & shoot one of these fine looking flint-locks finds their rifle muzzle heavy because it doesn't have a "swamped" barrel?

Let me add that 99% of my shooting will be at paper targets. I might "hunt" this rifle at some point (deer), but the vast majority of my shooting will be at targets on the shooting range.

I'd greatly value your opinions. smile


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Last edited by Ron_T; 05/17/09. Reason: Added comment about mostly shooting targets

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Yep, a bit muzzle heavy. Anything with a 40" bbl, swamped or not, is going to be muzzle heavy to some degree. In my opinion, that's a good thing, thinking in terms of off hand shooting.


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Quote
Anything with a 40" bbl, swamped or not, is going to be muzzle heavy to some degree. In my opinion, that's a good thing, thinking in terms of off hand shooting.


Sorry ,Im would have to greatly disagree with that statment . while it is a common thought , it has no real base . you can actually have a rifle that has a 42 inch barrel and yet still be Butt heavy in the hold . Off hand shooting that is


ok as to the traditions , easy answer , yep she Is muzzle heavy .
But the reason it is muzzle heavy is because of the build not because of the length of the barrel.
A rifle should balance nicely in one hand , when that hand is place just in front of the lock mortise forward to about mid point of the forearm . this holds true for rifles as well as smoothbores which for the most part have a whole lot lighter barrel
Now a strait barrel is harder to balance there and do correctly . But it is doable , without leading .
that�s with even barrel lengths of 42 inches .
There are however many variables to consider when doing that . If a person has a short pull . Your likely to end up with a slightly nose heavy gun . Currently Im finishing up a Beck for a lady . It has a strait barrel in 39 inches of 45 cal . Her pull is 12 inches . This combined with the barrel moves the balance point to the entry thimble .
But compared to a Lancaster I built last fall for a man with a 14 � in pull , using a 50 cal 15/16 strait barrel 42 inches long . I was still able to build the rifle to balance right in front of the lock mortise

Now a swamped barrel will provide you the ability to much more easily balance the rifle . But it also is harder to inlet . They also come in several profiles which provide different options for balancing . So when you ask about a swamped barrel , its good to know what profile your looking for and why
So the + to a swamped barrel is , easier to balance and an over all lighter rifle as as much as 8 oz can be saved in the weight
As a side note here , if we look at GM barrel chrts , we find that you can have a B profiled 50 cal swamped 42 inch barrel that weighs in at 4.5lbs . Compare that to on say one of their replacement barrels for a TC in 50 cal that�s only 32 inches long , yet weighs in at 6.6 lbs
With both being 1 inch at the breech
Now
If your looking for Period correctness for a long rifle , then the barrel should be swamped or tapered .
The Traditions rifles have neither and if the above is what your looking for then IMO they should not be considered at all .
But if its not a real concern . Then they can be found to be nice shooting rifles .

But understand the length of the barrel has little to do with the balance . For the most part a properly built long rifle with balance just as nice or better then a short barreled plains rifle


Something else for you to think on here though .
Now most certainly there is more to it then just what im going to list . However these are some of the basic�s
There are pro�s and cons to being muzzle heavy , balanced or butt heavy .

Lets start with muzzle heavy
A muzzle heavy rifle is slower to the pull and can be awkward to carry depending on how nose heavy it is . It also likes a shorter hang time on target
But its quick to settle on the target . Its also much more stable in the hang . IE it wants to hold much more steady then either a balanced or butt heavy rifle .
Its also much more stable in the follow through
All very desirable for target shooting.. Especially at longer distances . Less desirable for hunting . However the draw backs to the hunting application will be over come with use.

Now with balanced . , she carries well . And is quick in the pull
While less stable then a nose heavy gun , its still settle well to the target . But can like to wonder in the hang .and buck alittle in the follow through . This however is easily over come ..
It also provides for a much longer rifle to be built and still be a joy to carry in the field
This makes for a very good platform for a hunting gun while at the same time capable of target shooting even at long distances with a steady hand .

Butt heavy is the least desirable for a rifle .
While its quick in the pull and a lot nicer in the lead on moving targets . Its highly un steady and doesn�t like to settle well without a very steady hand . But it provides a long period in the hang . It also wants to drop the butt , while in the carry . Its also doesn�t like to rest in the follow through , allowing the muzzle to climb .


So in the end , understand and know what you want , why you want it and chose accordingly .
But never , I repeat , never assume that a rifle with a long barrel , is less balanced then a short barrel or for that mater heavier then a short barreled rifle


Last edited by captchee; 05/17/09.

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Captchee...

Your post, as with your previous posts to my questions, is fully explanatory and much appreciated. Thank you, Sir. smile


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check out the traditions kentucky. Sweet shooters, great balance and light weight.

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Good post!

Quote
Lets start with muzzle heavy
A muzzle heavy rifle is slower to the pull and can be awkward to carry depending on how nose heavy it is . It also likes a shorter hang time on target
But its quick to settle on the target . Its also much more stable in the hang . IE it wants to hold much more steady then either a balanced or butt heavy rifle .
Its also much more stable in the follow through
All very desirable for target shooting.. Especially at longer distances . Less desirable for hunting . However the draw backs to the hunting application will be over come with use.


I particularly agree with that. IMO the advantage to this goes directly to offhand unsupported use with rifles. Moving the carry balance point forward is not so much of a burden as having your sights wander about on their own imponderable journey. The message was first imprinted on my dim circuits when I picked up a long range Sharps one day.


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she was pretty solid in the hold with that longer heavy barrel wasnt it


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Oh Lordy, that is a vast understatement! grin

Was up in Big Timber at C. Sharps. There's a powerline outside with those blue glass insulators and one was about 300, maybe 400 yards distant. It was spooky how well it held the post just under the blue...........then my arms started giving out........ grinQuigley would have already fired but....

And by the way, a 42" barrel (not swamped) can balance pretty well, all things considered:

[Linked Image]

I'm not sure it will show on the image but it balances under the rear sight. The gun is 7.3# and the small bit of weight forward lets me do this at 50 yards and I'm a rookie with flinters.

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I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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thats not bad , she will tighten up more then that dan . keep working at it . you should be able to poke 1 ragged hole at 50 . it'll come , just give her time wink
3 weeks back i god soundly whooped on paper down at troy . while still pulled 1st out of 150 shooters over all .
off hand , on paper at 25 yards , shooting pistol targets so the X is about the size of a quarter . i scored a 49 3X out of 5 shots . only good enough for 4th on paper as the top 3 spots all had 50s . the winner had a 50 4X
but i took it back on the range with a score of 139 3X out of a possable 150, 5X . the nearest person to me who took 2nd , scored a 133 2X whistle
gotta love it .
but i must admit , my back was out and i had taken a couple pain pills . couldnt get any more relaxed . i think thats about the best i have ever shot .

she also is nose heavy as you say . not alot but just enough .
ballanced , would be if you split the diffrence between the rear sight and the forward edge of the lock mortice . right about that general area .

and again yes it can be done with a 42 inch strait barrel

Last edited by captchee; 05/18/09.

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I know it will get better, but for offhand I'm not the least unhappy. The ragged hole, maybe someday, but that fair fancy shootin' for a flinter...to my eye. One side benefit of working with the flint is the discipline instilled. It shows up readily with more modern arms with faster lock times.

Shot the same day as those above with a bolt rifle, offhand at 50 yards as well. One point of redemption, they are paper patch loads.

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Brings to mind the training process put upon young Ned Roberts by his mentor.



I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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