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valad Offline OP
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I went to shoot a few clays at the shotgun range this weekend. It is a basic range, no frills. Wife wanted to tag along and see whats the excitement. I took my 870 Express Mag 12 ga 28" barreland a SW M39 9mm. I got the target AA shells, and shot a whole lot of them. My dad was there too, and he shot some. The wife shot some, but she is only 5-7" and weights 125 lbs fully dressed! I think she shot a total of 5 times, but her arms near her shoulder is bruised badly. I told her she was not shouldering the rifle correctly. But the 28" barrel makes it too long for her.

She indicated she wants to shoot more, but not with my shotgun! Ok...I will sprout for a shotgun that fits her. I tend to like the Remington shotguns, but need to get a youth gun in 20ga. Would a 21" barrel be good for shooting clays? I'd probably want a wood stock so the gunsmith can cut it to fit. The synthetic stocks cannot be cut down?

Anyone know where a used youth 20ga can be purchased? I prefer a pump, but she mak like the semi-autos. I'd like to hear what others have experienced with this, because, as you know, buying a gun and finding out this is not what she likes, is a espensive proposition.

I think I will be buying one for her soon, because the shotgun may need to be fitted and want it ready for fall. I enjoy shooting in the fall/winter than these dog days of summer. Contributions to this discussion will be greatly appreciative. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks.

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Valad,

I approach this problem from a different angle. 20-gauge shotguns are popular because they are light and handy. Most of them kick like mules. Most men or boys put up with the recoil, especially if it means hauling around a lighter shotgun all day. Women and girls however, hate recoil and won't put up with it. The best shotgun for them fits perfectly and has some mass.

You're on the right track with your willingness to cut the stock and make things right in the "fit" department - fit is the key. But I would consider sticking with a 12-gauge. A moderate-weight 12-gauge kicks less firing AA shells than a lightweight 20-gauge does, and the shooter isn't handicapped by the pellet count.

An 870 Mag 12 with a 28" barrel is a beast, and I'm not surprised a Lady of your wife's dimensions would have trouble with it. I'd be careful though of not jumping too far in the other direction with a light 20-gauge.

A moderate-weight 12-gauge (maybe even a recoil-reducing semi), a stock that fits with a nice recoil pad, and AA shells might be just the ticket.


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I'd take her along and let her pick it out. That will make it hers, and she'll like it better.

I think 21" will work fine for her. The short barrel is too fast for a lot of men (except in the brush), but that's what makes it great for her.

The Remington 870 or 1100 Upland Special would work fine, and so would a Browning BPS or Gold. I believe youth models are made for the Remingtons, and I'm pretty sure the Brownings come in "micro" configuration that is short and light.

Remember that AAs come in various charge weights. You can shoot skeet and 16 yard trap just fine with the 7/8 oz. "Low noise, low recoil" 12 ga. loads and recoil is minimal in a heavy gun. The Browning BPS 12 ga. Upland Sp. weighs about 7#, but it's short enough she might like it. The 20 ga. BPS US weighs about 6.5#.

A Beretta 391 20 ga. is an awful nice gun too, for a little more money. If she likes it and you can raise the money, the chance of having a live-in hunting buddy would make it a bargain.

Whatever you do, be sure she likes the gun before you buy it. Women often like pretty guns. I helped a friend select an SKB auto a few years ago. It is a 12 ga. slug model, with rifle sights, short stock, cylinder bore, and "engraving" of birds on the sides of the receiver. She loves that gun.

On the other hand, my father in law went to town to buy his wife a .243. He found a good deal on a .308 BAR and brought it home instead. She hated that rifle and never, to my knowledge, ever fired it. I hunted with it some, and it was a hell of a rifle, but not what she sent for.

I'm not an expert on guns or on women. This is just what I'd do in your shoes.

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valad Offline OP
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JOG,

Maybe I'll just buy a regular 870 with a shorter barrel. But my wife also said my 870 was too heavy to hold for long periods, this is why I was thinking about the yough or lightweights. My 870 also is a long LOP, probably not her fit which is why she has a bruised arm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But carlos is right, I gonna get her one that fits and she can head to the range with me, and maybe pass it off to my kids (3 y/o girl and 1 y/0 boy).

Hard to decide, Wally World really does not have much choice, and Galyans has those expensive guns and try to sell you a paddle.

Thanks.

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Valad,

My wife and two daughters range from a graceful 5'-2" to a swan-like 5'-5" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

A too long LOP and long barrel puts the weight of the shotgun on their front hand. Since most women have tremendous upperbody strength <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />, they compensate by angling their body backwards over their hips and having most of their weight on the back foot. Not only does this look goofy...you can't swing a shotgun from this position, and it sucks up all the rearward body movement needed to adsorb recoil.

A shooter in such a position almost always has to take a clumsy step back with the rear foot to keep from falling over.

A shorter/correct LOP puts the weight of the receiver between their hands, and the shorter barrel (slightly) reduces the overall weight. If anything, I would cheat the LOP on the short side to keep the weight even closer to the body.

Hopefully, the stock and barrel work would allow the use of a little heavier and more recoil absorbing 12-gauge shotgun.


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valad Offline OP
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JOG,

I been doing a little thinking. The 870 Express Mag I have, as I said, is a bit to heavy, but its a 28" barrel as well as the stock not fitting my wife. So what I think I'd do is, look for an extra buttstock and get a 'smith chop it to fit her LOP (that way I can retain the original buttstock in case she says its too powerful for her). My 870 is a RH, and I am a LH shooter. If this works well and the wife is happy, I would then look for a LH 870 for me.

With millions of 870 released to the market, you'd think there were surplus parts for an 870. Do you know where butstocks for 870 can be had?

The 870 I got, I only paid $150 and that includes shipping. I don't see any marks on the shotgun and it shoots well for me, sans the RH ejection. But that does not bother me.

Thanks and let me know where you can get a used wood butttock for a 870, and if I can locate one, I may just look for a shorter barrel (21"?) and be all set for the range again.

Thanks.

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Check on Gunbroker.com for a youth model 870 in 20 gauge--much easier for small stature shooters to handle than that big old 12. Has a 21 inch barrel with screw in chokes, which is about right for the gun. It's also quite a bit lighter than the youth model 1100 20 gauge. My son much prefers the 870. With 7/8 oz skeet loads, recoil is a non issue. 1 oz cheapo dove loads, ditto.


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Steve,

I'll probably be accused of being sexist - which is probably accurate <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Most women just can't stand recoil. I'm sure there are exceptions - but I don't know any of them.

Your son can probably pilot his skateboard off the roof and think it's fun. There just isn't any comparison between a boy and a woman as far as handling recoil. I once persuaded my wife, an experienced handgunner, to fire a field load from a LW 870. I thought the recoil would unpleasant but manageable for her. Forget the shoulder, her head snapped back so hard it almost knocked her unconscious - and I'm not exaggerating a bit. My son was about her weight at the time and he had absolutely no problem with the same combination. It wasn�t simply that he could put up with the recoil, which he could have, I could tell by watching him shoot that his body was absorbing the recoil in a way that my wife�s could not.

Over the years, I�ve seen 75-lb boys fire the LW 870 with no problems either.

There�s some cosmic combination of long slender necks, small, light, and comparatively weak upper bodies, a high waist, and a general aversion to any type of collision that makes a woman�s reaction to recoil almost impossible to predict. Most boys are just fine as long as the recoil doesn�t flatten them on the spot � and some actually enjoy being flattened. I recall my own son persuading ME to let him fire a hard kicker and then looking back at me with dazed eyes and saying, �Wow, that was awesome!� Women and recoil will continue to be a mystery to me with the only thing I know for sure is to proceed with a huge dose of caution. It just ain�t as simple as it seems � just like ALL things woman <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />.


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Valad,

I can't be much help in finding a used 870 stock. I don't think I've ever seen an 870 action that wore out before the stock did, and guys tend to hang onto extras for the same reasons you're looking for one. The new stocks I've seen go for around $80.

If the Super Mag is the way you want to go, I'd cut the stock you have and worry about it later - there's always the chance that your wife will like the set-up and you won't need to replace it anyway. That wouldn't be my advice on a high-dollar shotgun, but an 870 kinda is what it is.

I do think the 28" barrel is going to be a problem though, and my wife would probably tire of the whole routine of new stock...test, shorter barrel...test, different load...test - especially if she is getting whacked by the shotgun the whole time. I'd want to solve the problem in one swoop to minimize the Crabby Index.

Cutting the barrel is more of a problem money-wise, especially if you're considering screw-in chokes. The nickels and dimes are starting to add up with a new stock and barrel modifications, and a Super Mag with a short barrel is almost sure to be a white elephant if you ever try to sell it.

All in all, your Super Mag might be convenient choice because you already have one, but it might not be the best choice in the long run.


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JOG--you're right about that, boys kind of take to loud bangs and smacking things around, as long as they can do it at their own pace. My son didn't flinch sighting his lightweight 870 in with 3 in turkey loads off a bench--I flinched just watching it, though ( he might go 80 pounds soaking wet with boots on). I got him the 1100 youth model first because of recoil concerns, but when he tried the 870 he preferred it because it's lighter and handles better. I'm trying to keep him focused on pumps---he made me nervous handling a little 20 gauge Purdey at the Dallas safari club show. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
I've still got the youth 1100 20 with synthetic stock NIB if anybody wants it.


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I've been going through this with both my wife and my little girl.



First, I agree entirely. I remember taking out my BPS and shooting up 50 rounds of odds and ends 1.5 oz pheasant loads for fun. Boy, they kicked, but they sure smacked the clays! Both my ladies would have shot one, handed the gun to me and told me I was nutz.



Second, I agree with the 12 gauge, and I would suggest an auto. My wife has settled on a 1 oz load traveling at about 1160 fps. In her 391, 100 rounds are not too much. The gas action bleeds off just enough to make a substantial difference.



By comparison, 15 rounds out of her 20 ga. BPS is all I ever could get her to shoot. That little thing KICKS!



Thirdly, consider spending the money, and get something PRETTY! I sucked it up and bought my wife the Gold version of the 391, and everytime she looks at the little "gold" inlayed birds, she smiles. Guys will put up with a "black gun", but women appreciate the finer things such as good wood, etc.



I believe Beretta markets a ladies version of the 391 these days, and I would look into that. Women's dimensions are enough different to make fitting a must. Or, check with Wenig (http://www.wenig.com/jpegs/ladies.jpg), and get a Ladies stock from them. It may not be exactly cheap, but what is it worth for your gal to go shooting with you for the next 25 years?



Lastly, I would not consider a barrel less than 26 inches. Weight is important, but balance and swing characteristics are just as vital. Anything less than 26" and it will hurt the shootability of the gun to the point of making it useless. HTH, Dutch.

Last edited by Dutch; 07/08/04.

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valad Offline OP
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Dutch,

Your post was informative. Last Sat I went to Galyans, and asked to have the 870 20ga supermag pulled. I believe this was their youth version. The barrel was 21" I believe, the wife handled it and said "Boy...this feels much better than your 870 28" SuperMag". I handled it, and felt the same. But I knew this would not be easy to shoot because of the short barrel, and youth model probably made the shotgun too light and the recoil will be felt. I know she liked the feeling of the yough gun, but I decided not to get it. It was selling for $399.99 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> And I told the guy, two stores (Dicks and Wally) have those same guns for $249.99 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ok, I am still looking. I originally had wanted to get the pump, bec I felt it would be a good one for learners wife, daughter and son. Daughter is 3, son is 1 so they can use it 5 years down the road. (wife has shot my 870 Express Mag 5 times and handed it back to me saying...I ain't shooting that animal again). I guess an autoloader would be ok, but will have to emphasis shooting 5 shells for one bird <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> is not a sign of a skilled shooter.

I'll look into the Beretta 391. What does Wally sell these for? Normal retail for these in the metropolitian stores? Dutch, how do I find out my wife's LOP? I recall someone had instructions from a guy (and could be found on the internet) to measure a person's LOP? I'd like to find my wife's LOP so maybe I can check out on Gunbroker for a Beretta 391.

By the way, I normally like Remington guns, but will deviate to get my wife a gun she LOVES...that is high fondle factor and nice wood <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> So I can have a shooter for a lifetime!

I'll look into the Beretta 391 (do they come with 391?), and any other brands someone can offer.

Thanks.

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As far as Remington's go, the 1100 is a very soft shooting, reliable shotgun that does come in a youth version. Don't remember if the youth or ladies version is a 20 ga or if they also have a 12. However, note that the Wenig ladies stock is also available for the 1100. If you are a Remington man, I cannot see a reason not to go that route. I would look for a used gun with a beat up (or cut up) stock. Usually they go quite cheap. Then replace it with a Ladies stock. Presto, chango, the ideal ladies gun for a very reasonable price, especially if you finish the stock yourself (it is easy to do!).

Walmart stocks a Beretta, it's the 390. Don't believe they carry any youth model, but they can order just about any model gun available in the US. IIRC, the Walmart Beretta is a base model and sells for a little over $500. Higher end Beretta's 391's go into the $800 range, though I paid $650 for my wife's 391 Gold, barely used.

Second, stock dimensions. It is often recommended that a shooter measure the distance from the crook of the bent trigger finger to the elbow to determine LOP. This comes close ON AVERAGE, but can be a good bit off. A stock should be long enough that there are about "two fingers" between a shooters nose and the thumb on the trigger hand, when the gun is mounted. Stock fit is very important, but drop, cast and the size of the pistol grip are more important, in my opinion, than length of pull.

The nice part about the Beretta's is that they come with shims to adjust the drop of the stock up or down.

Before I forget, I was not clear in my last post. I should have clarified the barrel length issue better. 26" is as short as I would go on a double. On an auto or pump, the longer action makes a 24" barrel about equivalent to a double's 26" barrel. HTH, Dutch.


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My shootin' parnter just picked up an 1100 20gaugeLW with two barrels. Full and Imp cyl.
really nice gun! I'm going to put it through its oaces this weekend on the trap and skeet range!

Catnthehat


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I started shooting with a youth model 20 guage 870, 21" barrels. I did ok with it, but the short barrel didn't promote following through much at all. Then bought a 12 guage 870, 26" barrels. Both these were express versions, with the hard rubber 'recoil' pad from the factory. I could handle the recoil, as did my sisters and gfs. Then this past fall, my bro in law bought a 391, I shot it, the following week I bought a 391, my dad shot it, the following month he bought a 391. My old college roomie shot it the following month, he too bought one. All of us still have 870's of some form or another in the gun cabinets, be it 20's, 12's, express's, wingmasters. This past weekend dad and I were shooting some clays in the yard, his comment was "man, if I'd had this shotgun 25 years ago, I never would have bought another one" (that of course is a lie, because nobody ever has enough guns). The point being, those 391's flat out reduce the recoil. A combination of the gas operation and the gel recoil pad on them works well. Mine weighs 13 ounces less than my 870 does, but doesn't kick anywhere near the 870. We paid 700 for ours, plus tax at 3 different stores, but they were all on specials of some sort. usually can be had about anywhere for 825 or so. They make a 391 20 guage youth version, but i've never shot one.

The WalMart 390 is synthetic stocked, ugly as a mud fence. Lacks the shims to adjust the angle on the stock and the shell cutoff for keeping shells in the magazine while opening the chamber.

Couldn't pass up a deal at work the other day, an electrician had an Ithaca 37 Featherlight 20 guage, circa 1948, at a hell of a price. Took it home, refinished the stock, shot it at some clays, and damn, that thing kicks like a mule. Added a decelerator pad, and that tamed it somewhat. Pretty gun, light gun, good pheasant gun, but damn it kicks.


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