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I'm sure I will give the "theologians" some hairs to split, but I agree with your basic, although primarily ignored premise, bluetick.

I know of no biblical text mandating a ceremony, specific vows, or any requirement for marriage other than a man and woman to "cleave" to one another. This means to weave or become one. Each of the man and woman are incomplete without the other and this cleaving together with Christ as the mortar cements a marriage. God looks to the heart unlike man who look to the outward appearances. If a man and woman purpose in their hearts honest before the Lord to commit to one another in a marriage relationship, then no ceremony or license is necessary to preclude a state of sin.

Obviously, it would be true that no worldly benefits or acknowledgements would accue to the couple unless the mandated worldly legalities were observed as well.

With that said, not many couples mature in the Lord would seek this kind of marriage. It would be a stumbling block to most Christians as can be plainly seen from the contention your question has provoked. We are called to be a light to the non-believing world and, while such an union would be without sin, it might not be profitable for the Kingdom.


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"Many Christians can usually convince themselves that sex before ok if they are committed to marriage.... But, God calls us to be sexually pure outside of marriage, end of story. "


Well said!!!

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RickyD,

If you don't mind would you give us your definition of fornication and when is fornication?

It appears to me, you and bluetick endorse what I have always thought of as fornication. One of our previous posters apparently included all sexual sins under this umbrella.


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This has nothing to do with fornication. The question concerned what is a marriage in God's eyes.

Does a marriage occur when a license is obtained and a culturally driven ceremony is performed. Yes, of course, it does in the eyes of the world. But the question asks how God will recognize a marriage. I believe that a marriage only truly happens in God's eyes when two people make a solemn binding vow of committment to each other before the Lord. When this happens a marriage occurs. If these people make this vow without some license or culturally driven proceeding, will the Lord disavow their covenant to each other and see fornication? Not the God I serve.

The Lord looks to the heart and not the outward appearances as does man. This is why Jesus so vehemently chastised the pharisees. They had relegated His Word to a legalistic definitional religion much given to an outward show for the sake of appearances. Inside the Lord knew they were dry and dead.

The Lord hates this judgemental legalism more than fornication I believe. We see how he treated those temple leaders calling them snakes, tombs, and pronounced Satan as their father. Those who were in sin, even fornication, he ate and drank with, gave his time and showed love, even to accepting the cross.

What the Lord wants is a realtionship with us. Sin has been a preclusion to this relationship, but the atonement of Christ allows me to go boldly before His throne to worship and fellowship with the only and eternal God. For this I need no license, ceremony, or intercessor save Christ, but only a heart that accepts his gift of Grace, freely given.

I enjoyed a wonderful and traditional ceremony and I would always council couples committing to share a life together to do the same. While they are expedient, I just don't happen to believe that those trappings, in and of themselves, are what the Lord recognizes as a marriage.


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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RickyD,

Now, would you tell us what forniction is?


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You make a civil discourse difficult, mr. ringman. First you ignore my comments on the topic in question only to accuse me and the originator of the topic of "endorsing" fornication, and then, still ignoring my comments, you ask me repeatedly for a definition of what you accuse me of endorsing. Do you believe those tactics contribute to a productive discussion?

Since you will not comment on or counter the view I put forth related to the original question, I can only assume you don't share my belief of how God views marriage but are unwilling or unable to show me the error of my perspective. If my viewpoint is not worthy of your comments, why would you be interested in how I define fornication ?

Since I have seen that you have an obsession with fornication, at least from a definitional standpoint, I will provide it to you, in the hope of moving the discussion along.

Fornication is sexual intercourse between two unmarried people:But it is so much more. We know the Lord clarified commission of sin for us to include the thought of sin as well as the overt act. He told us that if we hate our brother we are guilty of murder. We must then impute this to all other sin as well. Therefore, if an unmarried person has ever looked upon another with desire, you have committed fornication. Of course, if you are married and viewed another with desire then you have committed adultery. I believe in context the definition of adultery is evident. There is no end for the opportunity to sin!

Thank you Lord for Your cleansing Blood! Amen.


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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RickyD,

Thanks for your definition. You say it is premarital sex. How then can you support the idea that fornication is acceptable to God?


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I don't. When marriage exists in the eyes of God, there is no fornication.

I believe it is possible for a marriage to be approved of God without a traditional license and ceremony. You do not believe it is possible.

You are saying that unless the state�s rules are be complied with God will reject a marriage covenanted in the hearts of a couple.

In Saudi Arabia (and likely many other Moslem countries) there is a law that no Saudi born into Islam can convert to Christianity. So will God reject every such soul who cries out to the Lord Jesus Christ from their heart to redeem them because they have failed to comply with this law? Obviously not.

God can approve what man disavows and reject what man decrees.


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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RickyD,

How do you get around, "Be in subjection to the governing authorities regarding marriage in the United States?


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You don't have to "get around" anything.

By your view, God looks to the state to see if their laws are complied with before he considers if sin is present. I don't believe that. If that were true He would have found those who helped the Jews escape the death camps in WWII as sinful since they broke German laws, and also those in this country who assisted runaway slaves during the awful period of slavery in this country, because they had not obeyed the law of the state. Look at the government sponsored genocide that is going on in the Sudan right now. Does God find those who are perpetrating this murder innocent because it is sanctioned by the government in power? I would say not. Are those who campaign so ferverently for �abortion rights� getting a pass from the Lord since the �Supreme� (ugggghh!) Court has approved the worst form of genocide known to man? I believe they are in for a shock!

A marriage of the heart without the culturally accepted ceremony and state required license will not be accepted by the state or society as a valid marriage until the time period that determines common law is met. Once that time period is met, then a common law marriage exists with all the rights and responsibilities accorded any marriage. We know that. At that point will God view that marriage any differently now that it is sanctioned by state law? I say no.

I would further offer that God may well disavow marriages that have been licensed and performed according to all accepted legal and cultural standards because they were entered into for motives that He cannot accept. This is especially true in countries that have used arranged marriages as a mainstay of their cultures for years. These marriages, while legal, are nothing more slavery.

In all things God looks to the heart. Jesus made that so plain with his dealings with the Pharisees, who were above reproach regarding the actual Law of God, let alone man's law, and yet their actions and beliefs were despised by the Lord.


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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RickyD,

While some of what you say may make sense, you can not excuse shacking up because some countries' marriages may be a form of slavery. Yes God looks on the heart of the matter.

Something you really need to consider is, if you are a Christian, a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, you have to be concerned with a little matter called testimony. People watch Christians, and the world knows what to call two people living together without a ceremony and a licence. They call it shacking up. For testimony sake, and that the cause of Christ be not blasphemed and hindered, as Ringman says, (and I usually hate to agree with him, just on principle) we are to be subject to the powers that be. Now if the powers that be tell us to go contrary to the word of God, we ought to obey God rather than man. So the thing about abotions is a non-sequitor in this discussion. State licences and a modest ceremony does not go contrary to the word of God.

When Jesus Christ marries his bride, there will be a Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I doubt that it will be a small affair. Guests will be invited, and the banquet will be some spread. If God threw a wedding ceremony for his Son, it would be something, AND HE WILL!!

Conscience, Paul said, Not thine own, but others. For conscience sake, we are to do nothing to give folks an occasion to stumble. Here is an easy example. The word "piss" is a Bible word. We all know what it refers to, because the Bible context says, "pisseth against the wall." If I wanted to, I could use that word to describe a particular bodily function, and it would be biblical. I WILL NOT USE THAT WORD! The reason is because too many use it as a cuss word, and I will not be hooked together with the cussers of this world. Similarly, too many shack up, even with a committment, (who knows what's in a man's heart?) without a ceremony. I would not be associated with that, for the sake of the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If it looks like sin, it likely is. When in doubt, don't. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)

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The state's license has absolutely no meaning in a religious sense. Nor does the state's "divorce." I think part of the problem is many religious people have confused true marriage with the piece of paper given out by the gob'ment. Once they confound the two, it's easy to assume the other piece of paper granting a "divorce" signed by some judge has some sigificance in the eyes of the Allmighty. It doesn't. It's a modern creation designed primarily to line the pockets of petty officials.

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RickyD,

You are going all over the place to support your arguement. Let me do the same thing. You condone the sin of fonication. How 'bout theft. If I steal something, how long does it take before that item belongs to me in the eyes of the Lord?
Quote
I would further offer that God may well disavow marriages that have been licensed and performed according to all accepted legal and cultural standards because they were entered into for motives that He cannot accept. This is especially true in countries that have used arranged marriages as a mainstay of their cultures for years. These marriages, while legal, are nothing more slavery.
You are a fantastic person. You know the mind of God! Tell us, then, did God disaprove of Abraham sending his slave to bring a bride for his son?

The idea of choosing your spouce is a Western Culture concept. We don't choose our parrents. We don't choose our siblings. Why should we choose our spouce? Where do you get the idea a prearanged marriage is slavery?


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Cosmoline,
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It's a modern creation designed primarily to line the pockets of petty officials.
You are a ways out there. Divorce was mentioned clear back in the time of Moses. Read your Bible.


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Hi Shootist,
I am not �excusing� shacking up. I never used that term and you are incorrect to suggest I advocate that kind of relationship. I have said that I believe God would honor a heartfelt covenant between a man and woman who come before Him asking His blessing on their relationship as marriage, regardless of if a license and ceremony had been performed. I delineate this cleaving together as totally apart to the crass arrangement you want to accuse me of excusing.

I understand that you and Ringman believe that God would turn his back on any such man and woman who would come before him for His blessing and will see their love and commitment both to Him and each other as invalid and fornication. I would never say or think that if I saw a true love and commitment for each other and a love for the Lord. I don�t believe every picture can be painted with the same brush and I don�t believe God looks at us that way either. But that is fine. You have your right to your perspective and I have the same right to mine.

The real problem here for the Church is that the use of loaded terminology like �shacking up� and such quick rushes to judgment to cry sin wherever something does not line up with your perspective push far more people away from God than all the testimony you mention as important. I am the first to prefer to see a sermon than hear one any day. The sermon I believe the Lord would want displayed for such a couple would be love and acceptance. Not rejection and name calling. I am also reminded that Jesus denounced the Pharisee standing in the outer court praying loudly in his finery to be seen and admired by all. Again, it goes to the heart.

Here�s what I said previously in this tread about testimony:
�With that said, not many couples mature in the Lord would seek this kind of marriage. It would be a stumbling block to most Christians as can be plainly seen from the contention your question has provoked. We are called to be a light to the non-believing world and, while such a union would be without sin, it might not be profitable for the Kingdom.�

My example of arranged marriages as not meeting God�s criteria of marriage was just one of many examples cited simply intended to illustrate why I felt the rational presented by Ringman was not valid in this instance. The state law specifies that for a couple to enjoy the legal recognition of marriage certain things must occur. Different states have different requirements. I do not believe God is bound by any states requirements. He can recognize a marriage that a state would not and chose not to recognize a marriage that a state does. Certainly arranged marriages in and of themselves are not sin to God. They do,however, lend themselves to heinous abuse in many cases. They also can be committed and full of love. I believe He views each case differently.

I believe the abortion example is a very valid one for a number of reasons. The one that strikes me now is that there is no scripture that says it is abhorrent to God to destroy the life of the most innocent and helpless among us. If there specifically was, then the abortion �debate� would not exist in the shrill magnitude we find today. But we (I may be reaching here) all know of scripture that, taken together, clearly show us the mind of God on this horrendous genocide. There is also no scripture mandating a license and a ceremony for marriage. But there are multitudes of scripture that tell us how important love, covenant, commitment, faithfulness, honesty, and compassion are. What you guys are telling me is don�t give me all that mushy tripe, if you haven�t got the license and seen the JP, you�re headed for hell. I think you are judgmental and wrong.

You ask �who knows what's in a man's heart?� and that answer is obviously, God. By judging people, and you and Ringman have shown yourselves quick on that trigger, you stand in His place and claim to know the heart even though you also admit you can�t. This is why so many in the world hate and fear the Church: judgment and hypocrisy. Whole denominations act out their fears that someone else may get to heaven a bit cheaper than they will. The truth is none will get to Heaven on their own accord but only by God�s grace. Grace is not judgment. Grace is what you can�t earn or deserve. But is also an important example of inclusionary love available to all. Good men and women are marginalized and the church has become factionalized and critically weakened because we chose to attack sin instead of show Christ�s love. In doing so the log in the attacker�s eye is ignored since the opportunity to point out the speck that we see in another�s just can�t be passed up. So many in the church jump at the chance to gossip, backbite and gleefully trot out others �sin� as pronounced by them. That doesn�t fill pews or inspire faith.

It matters little if you or I agree on what marriage is in the eyes of God. I have taken a bit of a contrarian position, purposefully so, once I saw the dogma that was trotted out to paint all situations with the same brush. I totally stand by the gist of my position: God looks to the heart and is not concerned about the outward appearances or the institutions of man. Most would agree with that statement. Marriage is no different than any thing else. Ringman seems to be particularly concerned because sexual relations have a role. A person is only as pure as his wandering eye or straying thoughts. So there goes purity. Your concern seems to be for appearances. God has always exalted or used mightily the most unlikely and often undesirable in many stories of the Bible. He doesn�t seem as concerned for appearances as many of us are.


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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RickyD,
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By judging people, and you and Ringman have shown yourselves quick on that trigger, you stand in His place and claim to know the heart even though you also admit you can�t.
Excuse me, but when have you ever read where I posted we can not know what's in a man's heart. Jesus says, "The mouth speaks from that which fills the heart." How else could we obey the instruction, "Call on the Lord with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart." if we can not know what's in somone's heart? How else do we know from whom to "come out from"? We come out form those who claim to be obeying Jesus but are not. Those in the world are the ones who need our testimonies.

The term "shacking up" describes folks who have a love for each other and are liviing outside of wedlock. They do not love the Lord, though, because if they did they would repent from their fornicating relation.


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RickyD,

Your words --
"What you guys are telling me is don�t give me all that mushy tripe, if you haven�t got the license and seen the JP, you�re headed for hell. I think you are judgmental and wrong."

I would never say that a person who has not submitted to the laws of the land in this area or any other is headed for hell. The only person who goes to hell is the person who in unbelief, rejects the free gift of salvation offered in the payment of the shed blood of Jesus Christ at Calvary.

I also do not call love, committment, covenant etc "mushy tripe." I love my wife. I am committed to her. I love her "as Christ loved the church -- Eph 5:25 -- I wish it were so, at any rate. In my heart of hearts it is so, whether it appears so outwardly.

If you say not many Christians are mature enough to do the non ceremony type marriage, then why even go that way at all. Who is being judgmental? Maybe you think you are and someone else is not.

We are told by the Lord to "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God." (1 Peter 2:13-16)

You are saying that you don't need to submit to man's ordinances to please the Lord. There is nothing in the scriptures that says we are NOT to get a licence to marry. Jesus Christ said to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's. I agree that a piece of paper does not make you married, nor does a piece of paper make you divorced. All the paper does is give you a testimony of propriety. In God's eyes, he says, we are to "Abstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thes 5:22) A marriage without a ceremony has an appearance of evil in this world. Put it to rest - get the piece of paper and let "what God hath joined together" not be put assunder - Christ's Bride is a perfect example. He gives us a piece of paper for our betrothal -- the Bible. A covenant "IN WRITING" that can be read by all to know of his love for us, his care for us, and his dying love for us, not "undying" love like men talk about.

God is a God of order and decency. God wants things to not only be right, but to look right as well. The argument you are getting is just to make sure thing are not only right, but that they look right, and that they don't look like a shack up.

The words of the_shootist are ended.


"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)

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Are there not more scriptures on the marriage ceremony?

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"I�ll take this one little step farther. If I am in collage paying my on way through life, meet a girl, make a commitment to this girl, have sex with this girl then wait till after graduation to marry her, then live a long happy life together, I don�t believe that I have committed a sin in gods eyes. Then again I could be wrong and I thank God for his grace."

Wait to marry her? You (hypothetically) already are married.

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I would also submit that fornication is more or less a Gentile concept, you see the word much more in the New Testament than in the Old (4 times KJV) and then is used in the concept of adopting customs of the Gentiles and is translated in the NASB as "playing the harlot." I point that out because it seems to me a pagan idea that you can have sex without being married. I would ask the theologians if there is a Hebrew word for consumating a marriage that does not exist.

Where do I get these silly ideas and from whom? 1 Cor. 6:16 where Paul says "Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, 'THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."

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