Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats What advantage is $600 dollar BOTTOM METAL over $150 dollar bottom metal?

How about $0 bottom metal. Go ADL

Last I heard Mr. Echols used Burgess BM on his legend rifles. Mr Burgess understood that correct box geometry made for a better feeding rife and prefered an integral box design over the one size fits all approch. If I commisoned such a rifle I would know what I wanted so there would never be a need to go from a .30-06 to a .375H&H. It just wouldn't be an issue.

Everything has it's place and on a topflight custom rifle a Sound Metal Products, Blackburn or Sunnyhill would always get the nod over any steel floorplate sheetmetal box design for my rifle if it's an option. Sometimes it's not an option though. I've used Williams products before and like them. But, like I said everything has it's place.

Terry

GASP!

Yeah.

Well, considering the fact that I paid <$400 for the rifle, I'm kinda thinking I'll look for one of the older model milled units and have my 'smith touch it up. Maybe someday if and/or when I shoot out the barrel and "need" a completely redo on the rifle I'll go this route.

While on their web site I did note that they're now offering a unit for the Mexican SR'98 and I just happen to have a full-ought custom job going for just such a rifle... !

Saves weight of course,but IMO never a real good idea for a BG rifle.We like to think that our rifles are never gonna jam, or debris will never get into the magazine to foul things up.Both could happen at inconvenient times and I don't want to pry around with jacknives or disassemble the whole rifle to fix things.

And "no",a hinged floorplate won't open and dump cartridges if properly made.....JMHO; YMMV.

For those willing to understand that what's posted below is meant as just one of those good natured light hearted discussions that happens around a campfire, please read on..


I'm glad you now have the draft. Is the draft machined @ 2deg while the floorplate mating surface is flat? I don't know. My point being when a floormetal is installed at a 3 to 3 1/2 deg angle the 2 degree draft at the back of the mag well and rear of the guard turns into a minus one. This is much more of an inletting problem when using a Mauser style integral box.

I apologize to everyone for ever doing this incorrectly. 40 lashes. ouch ooo ow ow ooooooo.......



There are capable smiths willing to complete the entire custom rifle themselves. My point was some of them are willing to go that extra mile and have clients looking for that level of finish and crispness inside & out. You can't get that out of a vibratory polisher with a little touchup. I know, I have one. Nobody is forcing them where to spend their money. I've the mindset that if all the floormetal customers were exposed to all the options there would be more $ales of those extra miles. You can't buy something that you don't know even exists. Also trying to give some answers to the subject of this thread.
Mine is
Again my point of time & materials = $ What advantage is $600 dollar BOTTOM METAL over $150 dollar bottom metal?


I would agree with you. When I fit the latch I leave the final fit until after I stock it so there's no rattle between the floorplate and rails.


I think you do a very good job of that. It's just not what I'm trying to do.


Most of my clients don't have an endless budget. They just want something that can't be produced for $150.


The copyright was done in 1988, under architectural works, works of the visual arts. general visual arts.

There are many clients who like Blackburn's design and are willing to pay for it. It's a free market economy.



Ummmmmmmm who puts the price tag on your product?



Is this because you have someone else polish those? Come on Matt, are you REALLY saying that Sunny Hill's hand polished units don't have better finish than an unpolished one off of your machine? I'd bet that Andy would disagree and might be a little insulted as well.


Searching....Searching... Sorry, I can't find you on my clients list. When it's your money, you can spend it where you like. That's the great thing about the current world of custom gunmaking. VARIETY


They make a slimmer more graceful stock. Which is important to some. They're also the only option for a Mauser. Maybe the prospective client could be persuaded in using a Mauser for their custom rifle they are considering building. It's a lot more work to machine and commands a higher price.


That's your opinion. Not some point of fact.


Indecision is the key to flexability Some clients know what they want. Others are happy to leave their options open.


Again. This is your opinion. Not some point of fact.


I love that quote.




I'm not here to pick a fight with Matt. He has done a great job producing a good product with a long line of happy customers. I applaud him for it. Wish I could check out his operation and learn something. I just think some of what he has posted here needs to be in the OP-ed column. He has every right to strong opinions about the products that he creates. It is understandable that the more people view these opinions as true Gospel the larger his customer base becomes. Can you blame him? I can't. Just offering my opinion and it's worth every cent the reader has paid for it.

From the link about Legend rifles posted above:
A Williams steel floor-plate and trigger bow is re-machined and cosmetically detailed before installation.
I think this a good example of the difference between $150 and $600. Attention to detail is paid for by the hour.

Just an opinion. There are many milled guards available in very good or even new condition for a reasonable price. The milled 03 guard has that distinctive look of the guard starting the grip curve. A few years ago online I saw pics of a customized 03 action & floormetal where Jim Dubell fit a straddle floorplate and a release in the bow. It kept the Springfield look adding the functionality and class of the straddle hinged plate.

I luv you James! I'm still waiting on his custom receivers.
Butch

I'm still waiting for a single thread started on this site or any other that involves my bottom metal that your two cents isn't added, along with a sales pitch for PT&G that had to use pictures of my budget bottom metal for their advertising.........

The lack of Kiff's wares in this thread were noted.

I'll have some pictures for you to look over this afternoon and then you can tell me where the $350.00 comes from.

I'm amazed at how many assumptions you make regarding our quality, when you yourself have admitted on at least two different occasions to never owning one of our new Oberndorf-style bottom metal assemblies.

I was asking you a question Matt. You didn't answer.

Here's the question again:
Is the draft machined @ 2deg while the floorplate mating surface is flat?

My assumptions were not about quality. Were they? If you set a stock up with the bottom inlet flat then machine the inlet with a 2 deg cutter and not have to inlet the floormetal closer to the action then the draft being machined like in my question is not a problem. If you're stocking from a blank or even a semi inlet and have the barreled action inletted then try to inlet the floormetal into the wood using guide screws it can be a problem.

I still don't know how yours is machined.

Machining the profile of the guard in one shot with a 2degree tool while the guard is flat takes less time & effort than setting the guard up at 3 deg then machining the profile in one shot programming different z values for each line. Changing the tool to a 5 deg and kissing the back of the guard and the wide part behind the magazine also takes more time.

more time & tooling & programming = more money

On numerous occasions I've complimented your products. Your posts about floormatals just seem to imply or blatantly say that every else's floormetals are overpriced or under polished or over complicated and customers are wasting their money if they spend it elsewhere. There's 300 million people in this country and plenty of room for competition.

It's the same attitude I've seen at the range when shooting a custom rifle and someone says "My savage shoots just as good. Why would anyone waste their money on that high dollar custom job?"

It just kind of rubs me the wrong way.

I did have a few of your floormetals in my shop but the client wanted them back and sent a couple of Blackburns. I don't think it was because he thought they were junk or too cheap. He was building a pair of M70s and one was stainless. And he liked the copywrited shape of the Blackburn.

Again
I still think the Williams is a good product. Just not the only one.

The answer, which would have been answered had you ever used one of our pieces was YES..............

When speaking of rubbed the wrong way, I know the feeling..............

If you want to compare products and justify why one costs more or less than the other, than I think it would only be fair for you to explain how you are making those assumptions when you haven't used the product.

I can appreciate good craftsmanship and I, along with many others are willing to pay for it, within reason..............That however is the rub.

The bottom metal below does not impress me in the craftsmanship department and the fact that I've seen at least a hundred more that were similiar, leads me to believe that it's SOP to let that kind of work out the door. These parts would be in my chip bin, but they were sold as IN-THE-WHITE.

I could see a guy using up the better part of a day to get that to the level you polished the guards above....Heck, maybe more.

The problem is, with parts that require an extensive amount of rework, filing, and sanding, they should be priced less than me, not the other way around.


Notice the tool marks on either side of the guard screw hole..........
That you will never see on my parts.




Take note of the mismatch of the machined radius.......That's a scrap part in my shop.



Same radius, different angle.




In this picture you can see the tool marks that are worse than any nail file I've ever seen and the mismatched radius on either side of the mag well is also very apparent as illustrated above.
Take note of the mismatched surface on the front tang around the guard screw hole that was clearly machined in 3 different passes.




If this is what you consider an upgrade from what I manufacture, then we certainly have a different idea of what quality is.


I priced the bottom metal at a rate that I thought was fair and what the market would support. I'm in the business to make money, but I'd rather explain to my customers how I make what I do for the price I charge, than why I charge so much for what I make.

You are right in the fact that it's always good to have choices and competition, but I think that prior to me posting this information, it was also a bit one-sided on "getting what you pay for"....
Just because a person feels compelled to spend more, doesn't mean necessarily that they're getting more.

For the record, there has never been, nor will there ever be a Savage in my stable of rifles.

Boy, I wish the two of you would quit fussin about this--I have parts/work on order from both of you.

Honestly, I never meant to start a Peter Measuring Match. I'm a guy who works a honest job to put beans on the table and buy "factory loaded ammo" to hunt with. I like to make sure I'm getting quality goods if and when I spend money on a project to make one of my rifles better. That's the reason I started this thread.

Fact is, my whole RIFLE didn't cost but just over $400 bucks so spending more on bottom metal than the entire rifle cost me seemed a bit "out of round" if you will...

You're not alone.........There's a lot of guys who don't want to spend that much money on bottom metal, let alone find out later that they could have saved a considerable amount of time, as well as money.

Matt,
In my opinion and it is mine, you didn't do yourself any good with this post. I don't know whose bottom metal you are showing. I'll bet it's not Duane's, Blackburn's, or Sunnyhill's. Does it sell for as much or more than yours. James is a professional custom gunmaker and is well thought of by his brother custom gunsmiths and customers. He asked some pointed questions and he got your goat.
Butch

You fellas are intense. And I do need bottom metal.

I admire both of you for defending your ideas and work.

Well done.

+1

I believe the last pic Matt posted is of a Sunnyhill.