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Can someone in the "Know" explain what advantages the extremely high end $400 to $600 dollar bottom metal provides over say bottom metal in the $150 dollar range???



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Thanks, am looking...


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If I were building something today, I would go with the Williams unit myself. I have a Sunny Hill BM unit on a 700, but it came with the rifle from their Custom Shop.

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It's kind of like comparing a Rolex to a Timex. They both tell time. Some clients like to know that every surface has been carefully polished even those you don't see when the rifle is assembled. Here's what a $500 bill can do to an 09 Argentine assembly when there's a bunch of tig welding and clean up to be done.
[Linked Image]


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It will reduce your groups by 50%. Meaning you'll shoot 50% less not being able to afford as much ammo. Call it Obama bottom metal.


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Originally Posted by JRGunmaker
It's kind of like comparing a Rolex to a Timex. They both tell time. Some clients like to know that every surface has been carefully polished even those you don't see when the rifle is assembled. Here's what a $500 bill can do to an 09 Argentine assembly when there's a bunch of tig welding and clean up to be done.
[Linked Image]


That's some beautiful work!

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If you have to ask, you likely don't care about the answer. The truly expensive bottom metal is not just the floorplate, but also a properly proportioned and finished magazine box that, for rifles that must feed each round, each time, are essential. Also, the quality of the metal to metal fit, floorplate release system and overall fit on a Sunny Hill, Blackburn, or Sound Metal Products unit will be far and away better than anything put out by the factory, especially after they're properly finished. You're not paying $300 for a warmed over Remington floorplate. Unless you're buying a Badger unit crazy

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Thanks Huntr for the kind words

Another way to think about it is what kind of beer do you drink. Or which brand of tools do you have in your shop. There's many ways to spend less money but to some having the perfect custom rifle built is much more important than bragging about getting a "better" deal on floormetal. I'm not picking on anyone else's product here. There's no reason to. Most things are sold for a price that supports the time and materials to build it. An engraver once told me a good way to load the question is to say, "You don't want to look like you ran out of money when you paid for the detail work. Do you?" A certain amount of pride goes into going the extra mile for the clients who truly appreciate it. Their cash helped support someone willing to do their best on the project. All without a government stimulus.

I would like to know what kind of beers in the fridge or tools in the shop or bullets in the reloading room there are for those who give others the impression that someone got $cr---d if they pay more than X amount for well..just about anything. There's a place and a market for products on either end of the spectrum.

Here's another spendy floormetal. IMHO worth every penny.
[Linked Image]


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I like cheap beer and expensive watches. I wonder what that say's about me? HA!

Nice work James.

Terry



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If I am going to build a custom rifle then I want all the bells and whistles, then if I ever want to sell it I will get top dollar..If you cut the corners on a custom job it will resell for 50 cents on the dollar, and I mean if you cut just one cornor.

A proper big bore for instance with quarter rib, 3 leaf sight, custom bottom metal, barrel band swivel, barrel band front sight, custom trigger, M-70 safety, control feed, Talley bolt 4 panal engraved, top of the line barrel and surface ground action with double square bridges, exhibition European walnut with leather covered recoil pad and 46 LPI or finer perhaps will cost you a bundle but it will also increase in value dramatically over the years, even with some hard use.

The cheap bottom metal gun, etc. etc, is not an investment and it devalues the minute you fire the first shot through it. Unless it becomes a collector for some reason your up the proverbial creek on resale..

At least that has been my experience over the last 65 plus years that I been messing with these things.

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Originally Posted by TC1
I like cheap beer and expensive watches.


You know what they say about cheap beer. Quantity has a quality all it's own.[Linked Image]

One of the great things about this country is we have many choices in where we want to spend our money. If someone spends $100 on a floormetal that's by choice. Or if someone else spends $500 on floormetal that's also by choice. When others outside of the transaction start turning it in to a class warfare thing I just don't understand the reasoning behind it.

When I sold parts at a speed shop years ago we were told that if the customer asked for the low ball item then we should "do them the favor" by handing them both the low$ and high$ one. Then they could make an informed choice by comparing the two. I was surprised at how many were lured by heavy advertisement into the shop looking for a low$ part and ended up leaving with a more expensive model when presented with a choice. Not because they were belittled into thinking they were too cheap by wanting the lower $ one. But by being able to see a variety of items that would suit their needs and making their own mind up based on where they thought their money was well spent.

The question at the top of this thread has too little information to offer much info. What action? What cartridge? SS or blued steel?

The Williams floormetal is inexpensive. At one point they didn't have any inletting draft. From what I gather that is how Winchester ordered it. As a stockmaker, I would charge a customer to file the proper draft on it before inletting it into his spendy English Walnut blank. Some of the Sunny Hill stuff needs draft filed behind the mag box. Unless the smith and client don't care about minor gaps. I'm not sure if Williams stuff still doesn't have any draft. In a drop in application for a plastic stock or factory stock the lack of draft wouldn't be a problem. So the money spent for the extra operation of putting draft on it might not be necessary.

choices choices so many choices.


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I have this incredible attraction to Formula 1 engines; they rev up to 12,000 rpm like swiss watches, so smooth...
Same with rifles, with every part just like TC1 does them.
Guys like James Anderson make that happen.


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Thanks Don
The most important part of making it happen is the customer willing to pay for it in the first place. Also the many smiths current & late here in the USA who have paved the way by producing most of the worlds best quality bolt actions. I'm just lucky enough to "monkey see monkey do" and glean what I can from those who've done it before me.

There's an important place for all the different floormetals being made or spiffed up today.
Williams
Sunny Hill
Sound Metal Products -Wiebe
Badger Ordnance
Blackburn

And many others

There's some action & cartridge combos that are only available from a few vendors. The time it takes to R&D a short run of parts unavailable anywhere else should reflect in the price.



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Is Williams bottom metal considered cheap? I have one, I feel it is of top quality. I did not buy it for cost but quality. It is on my SS .300 win mag. I have never heard anyone say anything bad about them. I always considered them as top tier as all the rest.

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Calling his floormetal cheap would be considered an insult. Wouldn't you think? I would call them very competitively priced. Would you consider a WinM70 as top tier as a Dakota 76? Williams has built thousands of floormetals for Winchester and they were happy with the product and price. If the customer is happy that's all that matters. Williams offers vibratory polishing as a standard and hand polishing as an upgrade. The time spent polishing and the methods used determine the level of finish as well as the price of the product. On his website Williams offers an upgrade "polished and blued" for $34. And for $34 I don't think the level of polish would match what can be attained spending most of a day trying to do the best possible job on every surface. It's not even a fair comparison.

Many of the expensive floormetals have an integral magazine box and this makes machining take much more time. Some are one piece and some have the bow welded on. Jerry Fisher sells a round bottom for Mausers that takes more machine work and commands a higher price. Blackburn has a copywrite on his shape and many customers are happy to pay for them. The subtle differences in shape between the various floormetals also provides a market for different vendors.

In the end most of it comes down to Time = $.


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Unless it is a wooden show rifle, with custom engraving, I cannot ever see spending $150 or more on a triggerguard, and floorplate. Maybe if it was titanium, and I was trying to build the lightest possible rifle...

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Everything has it's place.



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Originally Posted by DMB
I have this incredible attraction to Formula 1 engines; they rev up to 12,000 rpm like swiss watches, so smooth...


F1 Engines rev up to 18,000 rpm grin A couple years ago, they were limited to 19,000 rpm, but now they are required to rev no more and 18K and must last two races.

I have Burgess bottom metal on my Echols Legend.
I have Williams bottom metal on 2 of the rifles that Mark Penrod built.
I have factory 3 piece metal on a couple of bone stock M70s.

There is a huge difference in quality. You do indeed get what you pay for.

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I have Badger M4 bottom metal and Williams and for the price difference, I prefer the Williams. Badger had no radiused edges and commands a premium price. It's solid but so is the Williams model. Either one is heads and shoulders better than the pot metal Remingtons come with. PTG bottom metal is another option that looks nice but have no experience with it.

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Originally Posted by JRGunmaker
Calling his floormetal cheap would be considered an insult. Wouldn't you think? I would call them very competitively priced. Would you consider a WinM70 as top tier as a Dakota 76? Williams has built thousands of floormetals for Winchester and they were happy with the product and price. If the customer is happy that's all that matters. Williams offers vibratory polishing as a standard and hand polishing as an upgrade. The time spent polishing and the methods used determine the level of finish as well as the price of the product. On his website Williams offers an upgrade "polished and blued" for $34. And for $34 I don't think the level of polish would match what can be attained spending most of a day trying to do the best possible job on every surface. It's not even a fair comparison.

Many of the expensive floormetals have an integral magazine box and this makes machining take much more time. Some are one piece and some have the bow welded on. Jerry Fisher sells a round bottom for Mausers that takes more machine work and commands a higher price. Blackburn has a copywrite on his shape and many customers are happy to pay for them. The subtle differences in shape between the various floormetals also provides a market for different vendors.

In the end most of it comes down to Time = $.


I never called them cheap. I think they are very nice. I did not mean to insult anyone. I just got the impression that some people were saying this, that was my question. I just think my Williams bottom metal is top notch.

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He never said you called them anything. Nothing he wrote was even in reference to you. It was all about the products. Read it again, this time in a non defensive mode.



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I never said he did. I just did not want anyone thinking I did. I am not in defense mode I just wanted to make myself clear. I appreciate the feedback he gave me. I am sorry if I upset anyone with what I wrote.

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I guess I was trying to say in a polite way that if you've never had a Burgess or similar floormetal then you don't know what you're missing. Please understand that I'm not trying to say in any way that what you have is not worth having. It is obviously worth the money you spent because you are very happy with it.

There is a moderator on another forum that flies off the handle any time a Dakota rifle is mentioned and he basically states that anyone who bought a Dakota is stupid for wasting his/her money and a factory M70 should have been bought instead. It just seams like a petty class envy thing.

I think those interested in custom rifles should subscribe to more of a class appreciation theory and not get pressured into thinking the rifles they currently have or build are the only ones worth spending money on. When I started gunsmithing school I was tickled that I might learn to build a rifle stock that was as pretty as a factory REM 700 BDL. At that time I thought the BDL stock was the cat's @$$. You know all those white line spacers and cool pressed checkering. I didn't know that there were many other classes of rifles and had no way of appreciating them. Now I do but don't have the attitude that the BDL is cheap junk. I think it serves its purpose very well and there's no reason to berate it.

As Terry and many others can attest, the more you study fine rifles and the more in depth posts like ForrestB's Rigby that show the detail and dedication of both customer and gunmaker, the more the bug starts biting.

I can think of worse things to be bitten by.


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Does Burgess make a stainless model? Do the have a web site? How does Blackburn compare? Thanks for the info.

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Originally Posted by EDMHUNTER
Does Burgess make a stainless model? Do the have a web site? How does Blackburn compare? Thanks for the info.


Burgess has gone to the happy hunting ground. I believe he was in in late 80s when he made my bottom metal. I don't believe Blackburn compares but they are nice indeed.

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The Williams unit must be a pretty good starting point cause I believe Echols uses them on the Legend. Not sure how much he has to modify them though.

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James,
I just wanted to say that your posts are excellent and should be what everyone aspires to. You are informational and cast no stones at anyone or their products. You set a mighty fine example sir.

Michael J


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You pay for what ever suits you. If it's and old Model 70, the move away from the multi piece bottom metal is always a good thing. How fancy you get is another matter. If it's for a hunting rifle then make up your mind about price.

It seems that Ray is the only person I have ever known to make money on hs custom rifles, does that come from keeping them for 40 plus years? If that's the case, you haven't made anything.


Vary few of us realize how inflation effects us.


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People pay 60 grand for Holland and Holland shotguns that do not shoot any better than a Mossberg. I think the fancy, machined bottom metal is cool. I am guessing it does not do a thing for accuracy or function. To each is own. If I had more money, I would probably put them on my guns. 4000.00 accessory package on a car that you are going to trade in 4 years at a massive loss makes much less sense.

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Quote
The Williams floormetal is inexpensive. At one point they didn't have any inletting draft. From what I gather that is how Winchester ordered it. As a stockmaker, I would charge a customer to file the proper draft on it before inletting it into his spendy English Walnut blank. Some of the Sunny Hill stuff needs draft filed behind the mag box. Unless the smith and client don't care about minor gaps. I'm not sure if Williams stuff still doesn't have any draft. In a drop in application for a plastic stock or factory stock the lack of draft wouldn't be a problem. So the money spent for the extra operation of putting draft on it might not be necessary



Our entire bottom metal line has a complete and uninterrupted 2 deg. draft around the entire perimeter of the guard, which was only possible to do correctly with a true one-piece.

Quote
Williams offers vibratory polishing as a standard and hand polishing as an upgrade. The time spent polishing and the methods used determine the level of finish as well as the price of the product.


We do use a vibratory finish for our in-the-white models to some extent, but the inside-the-bow latch must be polished by hand in order to match it perfectly to the guard bow.

In the picture below you'll notice that the guard and floorplate have been polished, but the sides have the vibratory finish on them.
[Linked Image]

Quote
On his website Williams offers an upgrade "polished and blued" for $34. And for $34 I don't think the level of polish would match what can be attained spending most of a day trying to do the best possible job on every surface. It's not even a fair comparison.


I think if we're going to do a "fair comparison", we should not be talking apples and oranges either.....
The level of polish that you speak of is not being delivered by any bottom metal maker, regardless of price, unless they are completing the entire custom rifle themselves.
You simply cannot completely finish a bottom metal correctly, until it has been inletted into a stock, where the bottom metal and stock are finished as a complete unit. To say nothing of a receiver's finish that must match the bottom metal in the final assembly.
Unlike our competitors, you will have virtually no tool marks of any kind to remove and the final luster is all that needs to be obtained. The holes are crisp and not washed out and if you choose a bead blast finish, or to matte rust blue the bottom metal, 99% of your work is done for you.

Our polished and blued upgrade is not intended to provide the highest luster possible that would require someone to spend the better part of a day obtaining. What we do is simply give a finish that will closely match a factory rifle finish that is closer to Winchester's Super Grade models, though it has always proven to have a higher luster than that.
There are many folks out there that don't have an endless budget for making good upgrades to their rifles, so they order them already blued. Sometimes they lack the knowledge or funds to blue themselves, or they don't have the money to pay a gunsmith to charge them 3 times at a minimum of what we can offer right out of the box.

Blackburn has a notable difference in their bow design, but it's not copyrighted.........

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


While some will place my bottom metal in the "cheap" category, or consider it simply a good value, I'll place my in-the-white bottom metal alongside any of our competitor's models and I guarantee that you'll have less time in bringing ours up to that high luster finish than you will theirs.

I've yet to begin polishing a part for shipment that didn't come straight off my machine with a better finish than has been offered by my competitors as a finished product. We also happen to be one of only two manufacturers at this point that even offer a "blued model" at any price.

I'm not going to tell someone they're paying too much for bottom metal, but I'd have a hard time having someone who's worked for me in the past tell me that they were going to spend a day polishing one guard and charging me $350.00 to do it.

What other bottom metal makers do that will drive up additional costs is the integral box, but that can be a real can of worms at the very least. I've made them, used them, and wouldn't use them again. They are far more trouble than any minute amount of benefit they may or may not add. Are they more robust?? Sure, but how robust must a bottom metal be? Do they improve function? Sometimes, but they can also be a very expensive paper weight. What happens if you decided to change your 30-06 to a 375 H&H??? Remember that $500.00 you spent on bottom metal? Well, get ready to do it again.
Leaving the box out of the equation gives the gunsmith or end user much more versatility on cartridge and bullet selection within a given cartridge. The only item that you're truly sacraficing is the extra weight of the integral box and nothing more. Not to say that the factory magazine boxes are the cure-all, because they definitely are not and could stand improvement in material selection, as well as strength and thickness, but I would take any of them hands down on any rifle I would own over an integral box.
The purest simply believe that it must be integral or you're taking a "shortcut", but the truth of the matter is, while the original intent was to lessen the costs, the major manufacturers discovered a better mouse trap in the process. The same is true for Model 70 triggers, safeties, and the Model 70/03 Springfield barrel breaching systems. Sure, one can argue back and forth about which one is better, but the above modifications that have come along since the Mauser 98 have proven themselves all over the world as being amongst the most dependable features available on a rifle, while keeping costs below that of a Mauser clone.

My bottom metal has made it into the hands of the finest custom rifle makers in the country and has been on display more than a few times at the tables of the Guild Show, so if you think that you're taking the cheap route........Think again.





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Matt--

Twas hoping you would chime in on this one. I think your bottom metal is a great upgrade. I just wish you could find some affordable stainless so that you could offer those again.

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Amen on the stainless

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Matt
I'm glad to see you posting here. I'd like to address some of your points but since this is happening around the "campfire", I need to run and get my Boy Scout juice and leaf blower. I'll be back. grin


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Originally Posted by RDFinn
The Williams unit must be a pretty good starting point cause I believe Echols uses them on the Legend. Not sure how much he has to modify them though.


Echols does not use Williams bottom metal. He prefers 3 piece units. Mine is a Burgess.

I have Williams bottom metal on 3 rifles, and a Williams trigger guard on a blind magazine Model 700. Good stuff for the money.

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I was just going by this that I found about the Legend.

http://www.chuckngalerobbins.com/Rifle.htm

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This is PERFECT!

I just picked up an 03-A3 that I simply LOVE to shoot, which means I'm taking a look at some of the less desireable aspects of it and wondering what the heck I'm to do about them.

The #1 stumper is bottom metal. Matt, you have a suggestion?

I REALLY wish that I had the loot to drop on having somebody like James strip 'er down and put the thing back together cuz if ever there was one worth the effort is the da Schpringfield, but I don't. I am convinced that the stamped sheet metal POS that is on this rifle has GOT to go.

Thoughts? Rework a Mauser or Winchester unit?

You know, this 'fire here has indeed changed the way I look at my rifles. GREAT learning going on here.

Thanks a TON James & Matt! Keep it comin'!

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Originally Posted by Ngrumba [/quote


Echols does not use Williams bottom metal. He prefers 3 piece units. Mine is a Burgess.



For a guy who doesn't use my guards, he sure has bought an awful lot since about 1999..............

Guess I'll have to ask him what he's doing with all of them, as well as all the floorplate and hinges too......



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Unfortunately, that's a model I don't carry, but like I've done many times before, I would recommend Sunny Hill for that one.....The bad news will be the sticker shock, but you might have already known that...... wink



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always good to hear from the "horses head"


I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is deer hunting season, and I carry a Remington. Stay hungry my friends.
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How about $0 bottom metal. Go ADL

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Last I heard Mr. Echols used Burgess BM on his legend rifles. Mr Burgess understood that correct box geometry made for a better feeding rife and prefered an integral box design over the one size fits all approch. If I commisoned such a rifle I would know what I wanted so there would never be a need to go from a .30-06 to a .375H&H. It just wouldn't be an issue.

Everything has it's place and on a topflight custom rifle a Sound Metal Products, Blackburn or Sunnyhill would always get the nod over any steel floorplate sheetmetal box design for my rifle if it's an option. Sometimes it's not an option though. I've used Williams products before and like them. But, like I said everything has it's place.

Terry



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Originally Posted by triggerguard1
I would recommend Sunny Hill for that one.....The bad news will be the sticker shock, but you might have already known that...... wink


GASP!

Yeah.

Well, considering the fact that I paid <$400 for the rifle, I'm kinda thinking I'll look for one of the older model milled units and have my 'smith touch it up. Maybe someday if and/or when I shoot out the barrel and "need" a completely redo on the rifle I'll go this route.

While on their web site I did note that they're now offering a unit for the Mexican SR'98 and I just happen to have a full-ought custom job going for just such a rifle... smile !

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Originally Posted by Mississippi
How about $0 bottom metal. Go ADL


Saves weight of course,but IMO never a real good idea for a BG rifle.We like to think that our rifles are never gonna jam, or debris will never get into the magazine to foul things up.Both could happen at inconvenient times and I don't want to pry around with jacknives or disassemble the whole rifle to fix things.

And "no",a hinged floorplate won't open and dump cartridges if properly made.....JMHO; YMMV.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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For those willing to understand that what's posted below is meant as just one of those good natured light hearted discussions that happens around a campfire, please read on..

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
Our entire bottom metal line has a complete and uninterrupted 2 deg. draft around the entire perimeter of the guard,

I'm glad you now have the draft. Is the draft machined @ 2deg while the floorplate mating surface is flat? I don't know. My point being when a floormetal is installed at a 3 to 3 1/2 deg angle the 2 degree draft at the back of the mag well and rear of the guard turns into a minus one. This is much more of an inletting problem when using a Mauser style integral box.
Originally Posted by triggerguard1
which was only possible to do correctly with a true one-piece.

I apologize to everyone for ever doing this incorrectly. 40 lashes. ouch ooo ow ow ooooooo....... cry


Originally Posted by triggerguard1
I think if we're going to do a "fair comparison", we should not be talking apples and oranges either.....
The level of polish that you speak of is not being delivered by any bottom metal maker, regardless of price, unless they are completing the entire custom rifle themselves.

There are capable smiths willing to complete the entire custom rifle themselves. My point was some of them are willing to go that extra mile and have clients looking for that level of finish and crispness inside & out. You can't get that out of a vibratory polisher with a little touchup. I know, I have one. Nobody is forcing them where to spend their money. I've the mindset that if all the floormetal customers were exposed to all the options there would be more $ales of those extra miles. You can't buy something that you don't know even exists. Also trying to give some answers to the subject of this thread.
Originally Posted by triggerguard1
Our polished and blued upgrade is not intended to provide the highest luster possible that would require someone to spend the better part of a day obtaining.
Mine is grin
Again my point of time & materials = $ What advantage is $600 dollar BOTTOM METAL over $150 dollar bottom metal?

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
You simply cannot completely finish a bottom metal correctly, until it has been inletted into a stock, where the bottom metal and stock are finished as a complete unit.

I would agree with you. When I fit the latch I leave the final fit until after I stock it so there's no rattle between the floorplate and rails.

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
What we do is simply give a finish that will closely match a factory rifle finish that is closer to Winchester's Super Grade models, though it has always proven to have a higher luster than that.

I think you do a very good job of that. It's just not what I'm trying to do.

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
There are many folks out there that don't have an endless budget for making good upgrades to their rifles

Most of my clients don't have an endless budget. They just want something that can't be produced for $150.

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
Blackburn has a notable difference in their bow design, but it's not copyrighted.........

The copyright was done in 1988, under architectural works, works of the visual arts. general visual arts.

There are many clients who like Blackburn's design and are willing to pay for it. It's a free market economy.

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
While some will place my bottom metal in the "cheap" category, or consider it simply a good value,


Ummmmmmmm who puts the price tag on your product?


Originally Posted by triggerguard1
I've yet to begin polishing a part for shipment that didn't come straight off my machine with a better finish than has been offered by my competitors as a finished product.

Is this because you have someone else polish those? grin Come on Matt, are you REALLY saying that Sunny Hill's hand polished units don't have better finish than an unpolished one off of your machine? I'd bet that Andy would disagree and might be a little insulted as well.

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
I'm not going to tell someone they're paying too much for bottom metal, but I'd have a hard time having someone who's worked for me in the past tell me that they were going to spend a day polishing one guard and charging me $350.00 to do it.

Searching....Searching... Sorry, I can't find you on my clients list. When it's your money, you can spend it where you like. That's the great thing about the current world of custom gunmaking. VARIETY

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
What other bottom metal makers do that will drive up additional costs is the integral box, but that can be a real can of worms at the very least. I've made them, used them, and wouldn't use them again.

They make a slimmer more graceful stock. Which is important to some. They're also the only option for a Mauser. Maybe the prospective client could be persuaded in using a Mauser for their custom rifle they are considering building. It's a lot more work to machine and commands a higher price.

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
They are far more trouble than any minute amount of benefit they may or may not add.

That's your opinion. Not some point of fact.

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
Leaving the box out of the equation gives the gunsmith or end user much more versatility on cartridge and bullet selection within a given cartridge.

Indecision is the key to flexability Some clients know what they want. Others are happy to leave their options open.

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
The only item that you're truly sacraficing is the extra weight of the integral box and nothing more.

Again. This is your opinion. Not some point of fact.

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
the Mauser 98 have proven themselves all over the world as being amongst the most dependable features available on a rifle

I love that quote.




I'm not here to pick a fight with Matt. He has done a great job producing a good product with a long line of happy customers. I applaud him for it. Wish I could check out his operation and learn something. I just think some of what he has posted here needs to be in the OP-ed column. He has every right to strong opinions about the products that he creates. It is understandable that the more people view these opinions as true Gospel the larger his customer base becomes. Can you blame him? I can't. Just offering my opinion and it's worth every cent the reader has paid for it.

From the link about Legend rifles posted above:
A Williams steel floor-plate and trigger bow is re-machined and cosmetically detailed before installation.
I think this a good example of the difference between $150 and $600. Attention to detail is paid for by the hour.


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Originally Posted by efw
I just picked up an 03-A3 that I simply LOVE to shoot, which means I'm taking a look at some of the less desireable aspects of it and wondering what the heck I'm to do about them.

The #1 stumper is bottom metal.


Just an opinion. There are many milled guards available in very good or even new condition for a reasonable price. The milled 03 guard has that distinctive look of the guard starting the grip curve. A few years ago online I saw pics of a customized 03 action & floormetal where Jim Dubell fit a straddle floorplate and a release in the bow. It kept the Springfield look adding the functionality and class of the straddle hinged plate.


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I luv you James! I'm still waiting on his custom receivers.
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I'm still waiting for a single thread started on this site or any other that involves my bottom metal that your two cents isn't added, along with a sales pitch for PT&G that had to use pictures of my budget bottom metal for their advertising.........

The lack of Kiff's wares in this thread were noted.



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I'll have some pictures for you to look over this afternoon and then you can tell me where the $350.00 comes from.



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Quote
I'm glad you now have the draft. Is the draft machined @ 2deg while the floorplate mating surface is flat? I don't know. My point being when a floormetal is installed at a 3 to 3 1/2 deg angle the 2 degree draft at the back of the mag well and rear of the guard turns into a minus one. This is much more of an inletting problem when using a Mauser style integral box.


I'm amazed at how many assumptions you make regarding our quality, when you yourself have admitted on at least two different occasions to never owning one of our new Oberndorf-style bottom metal assemblies.




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I was asking you a question Matt. You didn't answer.

Here's the question again:
Is the draft machined @ 2deg while the floorplate mating surface is flat?

My assumptions were not about quality. Were they? If you set a stock up with the bottom inlet flat then machine the inlet with a 2 deg cutter and not have to inlet the floormetal closer to the action then the draft being machined like in my question is not a problem. If you're stocking from a blank or even a semi inlet and have the barreled action inletted then try to inlet the floormetal into the wood using guide screws it can be a problem.

I still don't know how yours is machined.

Machining the profile of the guard in one shot with a 2degree tool while the guard is flat takes less time & effort than setting the guard up at 3 deg then machining the profile in one shot programming different z values for each line. Changing the tool to a 5 deg and kissing the back of the guard and the wide part behind the magazine also takes more time.

more time & tooling & programming = more money

On numerous occasions I've complimented your products. Your posts about floormatals just seem to imply or blatantly say that every else's floormetals are overpriced or under polished or over complicated and customers are wasting their money if they spend it elsewhere. There's 300 million people in this country and plenty of room for competition.

It's the same attitude I've seen at the range when shooting a custom rifle and someone says "My savage shoots just as good. Why would anyone waste their money on that high dollar custom job?"

It just kind of rubs me the wrong way.

I did have a few of your floormetals in my shop but the client wanted them back and sent a couple of Blackburns. I don't think it was because he thought they were junk or too cheap. He was building a pair of M70s and one was stainless. And he liked the copywrited shape of the Blackburn.


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Again
I still think the Williams is a good product. Just not the only one.


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Originally Posted by JRGunmaker
I was asking you a question Matt. You didn't answer.

Here's the question again:
Is the draft machined @ 2deg while the floorplate mating surface is flat?


The answer, which would have been answered had you ever used one of our pieces was YES..............

When speaking of rubbed the wrong way, I know the feeling..............

If you want to compare products and justify why one costs more or less than the other, than I think it would only be fair for you to explain how you are making those assumptions when you haven't used the product.

I can appreciate good craftsmanship and I, along with many others are willing to pay for it, within reason..............That however is the rub.

The bottom metal below does not impress me in the craftsmanship department and the fact that I've seen at least a hundred more that were similiar, leads me to believe that it's SOP to let that kind of work out the door. These parts would be in my chip bin, but they were sold as IN-THE-WHITE.

I could see a guy using up the better part of a day to get that to the level you polished the guards above....Heck, maybe more.

The problem is, with parts that require an extensive amount of rework, filing, and sanding, they should be priced less than me, not the other way around.


Notice the tool marks on either side of the guard screw hole..........
That you will never see on my parts
.

[Linked Image]


Take note of the mismatch of the machined radius.......That's a scrap part in my shop.
[Linked Image]


Same radius, different angle.

[Linked Image]


In this picture you can see the tool marks that are worse than any nail file I've ever seen and the mismatched radius on either side of the mag well is also very apparent as illustrated above.
Take note of the mismatched surface on the front tang around the guard screw hole that was clearly machined in 3 different passes.


[Linked Image]


If this is what you consider an upgrade from what I manufacture, then we certainly have a different idea of what quality is.


I priced the bottom metal at a rate that I thought was fair and what the market would support. I'm in the business to make money, but I'd rather explain to my customers how I make what I do for the price I charge, than why I charge so much for what I make.

You are right in the fact that it's always good to have choices and competition, but I think that prior to me posting this information, it was also a bit one-sided on "getting what you pay for"....
Just because a person feels compelled to spend more, doesn't mean necessarily that they're getting more.

For the record, there has never been, nor will there ever be a Savage in my stable of rifles.



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Boy, I wish the two of you would quit fussin about this--I have parts/work on order from both of you.

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Honestly, I never meant to start a Peter Measuring Match. I'm a guy who works a honest job to put beans on the table and buy "factory loaded ammo" to hunt with. I like to make sure I'm getting quality goods if and when I spend money on a project to make one of my rifles better. That's the reason I started this thread.

Fact is, my whole RIFLE didn't cost but just over $400 bucks so spending more on bottom metal than the entire rifle cost me seemed a bit "out of round" if you will...



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You're not alone.........There's a lot of guys who don't want to spend that much money on bottom metal, let alone find out later that they could have saved a considerable amount of time, as well as money.




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Matt,
In my opinion and it is mine, you didn't do yourself any good with this post. I don't know whose bottom metal you are showing. I'll bet it's not Duane's, Blackburn's, or Sunnyhill's. Does it sell for as much or more than yours. James is a professional custom gunmaker and is well thought of by his brother custom gunsmiths and customers. He asked some pointed questions and he got your goat.
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You fellas are intense. And I do need bottom metal.

I admire both of you for defending your ideas and work.

Well done.

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+1


I saw a movie where only the military and the police had guns. It was called Schindler's List.
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I believe the last pic Matt posted is of a Sunnyhill.

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FYI

It is my understanding that Mr. Blackburn is contemplating selling the manufacturing rights and tooling and current orders to his bottom metal lineup. Might be a good opportunity for someone who likes the machining trade and likes the gun trade.

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Originally Posted by butchlambert1
Matt,
In my opinion and it is mine, you didn't do yourself any good with this post. I don't know whose bottom metal you are showing. I'll bet it's not Duane's, Blackburn's, or Sunnyhill's. Does it sell for as much or more than yours. James is a professional custom gunmaker and is well thought of by his brother custom gunsmiths and customers. He asked some pointed questions and he got your goat.
Butch


It is in fact one of the three you mentioned, costs nearly 3 times as much, and I've seen just as bad, if not worse from another amongst your list, which is why I've made the statements that I have.

As far as doing myself a favor, I'd say that prior to commenting on what turned into a one-sided justification for high-priced bottom metal, Jim wasn't doing me any favors either.

I developed bottom metal in a one-piece configuration back in 1999 for the sole purpose of selling them to USRAC, which I did in abundance, eventually supplying the entire Super Grade line, as well as the Safari Express, and Super Express models offered through their custom shop. The goal at that time was to produce what "they" wanted, not the general public and at a cost that they would bite on. After being quite pleased with what had been created, I looked at the current competition in bottom metal and realized that there was no place for a blue collar guy to go if he wanted an upgrade over the factory junk. At that point, I put the word out to Brownells and later Midway, as well as beginning our website to sell them there. It was soon apparent that there was a significant amount of people who wanted good quality wares, but didn't like the sticker shock associated with the current lineup. It also became apparent in a relatively short length of time that the custom crowd did not want some of the features that I was offering, like a push-button release, no draft, and no straddle floorplate.
It admittedly took quite a while to bring all the features my customers had asked for on board for our entire line, and in 2006 we introduced our new Inside-The-Bow bottom metal.
The new bottom metal is made from a solid piece of A-36 and has the Oberndorf-style release, 2deg. of draft around the entire profile and each and every assembly is hand-fitted to ensure that it latches properly and does not rattle. For Remington 700's they drop into the factory inletting, which was another issue I had with my older versions, which cost me sales at that time. Now the design I made has now been adopted by FN in an aluminum version, which means that our bottom metal is the only one on the market that will drop into their factory stocks, without having to be inletted. In fact, based on the numerous samples that I've seen of my competitors models, they lack the amount of material to be used on any factory stock, unless you like large gaps around the guard and front guard screw.

My main concern about this thread was that Jim had used our older-style bottom metal and had drawn conclusions on what our new bottom metal was like, before actually using one. Our first bottom metal had to satisfy our largest customer's needs at the time, but the Inside-The-Bow models have been made to offer our customers every option they asked for in a price they could afford, while not sacrificing the quality of the end product.

I didn't set out to make a cheap bottom metal.......I set out to make the best quality model I could, while using the most efficient methods I knew of to do so, resulting in a product that has all the custom features a customer is looking for, without the custom price.



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Matt , are you still producing the old style bottom metal? What about a aluminum version of the Oberndorf style?
Any word on the action you talked about?

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We stopped producing the older-style bottom metal and I can't warm up to the aluminum.

I stopped putting out any word on the receiver, simply because I've had so many irons in the fire, that giving an accurate reveal date has proven to be less than useful.
I have countless hours and more money than I'd like to count in the project, so I haven't given up on it, but I'm not releasing anymore information on it other than that.



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One thing is for certain: Williams products are in demand. I can't find a long action Obendorf unit to save my life!

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I like the Blackburn unit I own, but, I only buy the Williams Oberndorf unit anymore.

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Originally Posted by triggerguard1
Jim wasn't doing me any favors either.

???
Are you talking about this?
Originally Posted by gunmaker
At one point they didn't have any inletting draft. From what I gather that is how Winchester ordered it......

I thought I brought up something customers had a beef with in the past and you answered it very well helping clear up any question about this subject.


Matt
Has anyone here said things like this about your products?

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
I've seen just as bad, if not worse from another amongst your list, which is why I've made the statements that I have.

I've yet to begin polishing a part for shipment that didn't come straight off my machine with a better finish than has been offered by my competitors as a finished product.

I'd have a hard time having someone who's worked for me in the past tell me that they were going to spend a day polishing one guard and charging me $350.00 to do it.

What other bottom metal makers do that will drive up additional costs is the integral box, but that can be a real can of worms at the very least.

I would recommend Sunny Hill for that one.....The bad news will be the sticker shock,

Originally Posted by triggerguard1

The lack of Kiff's wares in this thread were noted.

The bottom metal below does not impress me in the craftsmanship department and the fact that I've seen at least a hundred more that were similiar, leads me to believe that it's SOP to let that kind of work out the door. These parts would be in my chip bin, but they were sold as IN-THE-WHITE.

The problem is, with parts that require an extensive amount of rework, filing, and sanding, they should be priced less than me, not the other way around.

Notice the tool marks on either side of the guard screw hole..........
That you will never see on my parts.

Take note of the mismatch of the machined radius.......That's a scrap part in my shop.

In this picture you can see the tool marks that are worse than any nail file I've ever seen ............



I'm not putting words in your mouth here.

It seems like you're p eeing all over the other manufacturers products and I don't think anyone has returned the favor. This isn't politics. Just gun parts.

It's hard for me to understand why you are so frustrated about the competition and their pricing. They didn't price your products.

When you think about it, your products are in a market of their own. You specifically targeted and created a market that wasn't really there in the first place.

Originally Posted by triggerguard1
After being quite pleased with what had been created, I looked at the current competition in bottom metal and realized that there was no place for a blue collar guy to go if he wanted an upgrade over the factory junk...

...our bottom metal is the only one on the market that will drop into their factory stocks, without having to be inletted. In fact, based on the numerous samples that I've seen of my competitors models, they lack the amount of material to be used on any factory stock, unless you like large gaps around the guard and front guard screw.


In your own words you call your products an upgrade over the factory junk. Don't be so hard on yourself.

Sunny Hill (originally designed long ago by Pete Grisel) and Blackburn and a very few others started building floormetals many years ago for the custom gunmaking trade before the synthetic stock became very popular. These custom floormetals like drop magazines, integral magazines for M70s etc were never intended to be an upgrade over the factory floormetal. Most all of them ended in a custom walnut stock hand crafted for the customer. They weren't marketed to what you call a "blue collar guy". They were marketed to ANYONE who wanted a custom alternative to the factory floormetal and were building a custom stock in the process not caring what the factory inlet looked like. Never intended as a drop in easy upgrade.

Now that you've cornered the market that you created it seems you've a bone to pick with those who are apparently outside your market but make similar products. And apparently your frustrated when people think about your stuff as just an upgrade over the factory junk.. YOU need to stop calling it that.

Again I say: I think you make a good product that has a large following of happy customers. You should be proud of it. Isn't that what you set out to do after Winchester went Tango Uniform?



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Originally Posted by JRGunmaker
Originally Posted by triggerguard1
Jim wasn't doing me any favors either.

???
Are you talking about this?
Originally Posted by gunmaker
At one point they didn't have any inletting draft. From what I gather that is how Winchester ordered it......


No, I'd say it was your opening line.....

Quote
It's kind of like comparing a Rolex to a Timex


Followed up later with this one........

Quote
I guess I was trying to say in a polite way that if you've never had a Burgess or similar floormetal then you don't know what you're missing


Here's another assumption you made, though you didn't know what could be bought for $150.00.

Quote
Most of my clients don't have an endless budget. They just want something that can't be produced for $150


Quote
A Williams steel floor-plate and trigger bow is re-machined and cosmetically detailed before installation.
I think this a good example of the difference between $150 and $600. Attention to detail is paid for by the hour.


Did you happen to know what he did, or should I say, used to do to change the guard? I made them to USRAC's prints, which we later changed because of his request alone.


Quote
Matt
Has anyone here said things like this about your products?


Sure haven't and that's not by accident.


Quote
It's hard for me to understand why you are so frustrated about the competition and their pricing. They didn't price your products.


It frustrates me not..........What does, is someone who makes comparisons without having both products for the comparison. You make the assumption that because the product isn't priced at $500.00 or more, there's no way it could measure up in terms of fit, finish, and quality. You admit to never using one, but that didn't slow you down on making the assumpton that you just can't make what your clients want for $150.00.

I could truly care less if someone is willing to spend that much money on a bottom metal. People spend tens of thousands of dollars on complete rifles, 2,000 plus dollar blanks, and the list goes on and on. Amongst those big expenditures in the custom rifle making business, there are prices that are inflated for no other reason than to control the supply and demand factor and or give the perception that you've received more for your money. It's all what the market will bear and some have figured it out and others have not.


Quote
In your own words you call your products an upgrade over the factory junk. Don't be so hard on yourself.



All aftermarket bottom metal is an upgrade over the factory junk, including your A-list.

Like I've said many, many times before..........Put both in your hand at the same time and tell me that you got what you paid for. I don't believe that you can put both my bottom metal and my competitors side-by-side and look at the attention to detail on both and come to same conclusions you have on this thread.....

On that note, I'll let you have it, since I've pretty much wasted enough of my time on this thread.



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I just wish Matt and McMillan could get on the same page.......

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Originally Posted by Dawn2Dusk
Can someone in the "Know" explain what advantages the extremely high end $400 to $600 dollar bottom metal provides over say bottom metal in the $150 dollar range???



It might be the same advantage a bottle of $200.00 wine has over a $10.00 bottle?
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First off, it's exquisitely finished--the gunsmith doesn't have to do anything except blue it or color case harden it. Next, it has a straddle floorplate--generally the most sought-after type in high-end custom gunsmithing. It's not something you're going to put on a bubba'd-up barn-find, but hey, to each his own.

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12 year old thread... new record? smile


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Uh, one's in all caps, and the other isn't ??


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Wow, old thread. Some of these guys are out of business, some fresh out of the clink, others have passed into the great machine shop in the sky.

As an aside, I bought a nice Model 70 a few months ago with PT&G Oberndorf bottom metal. It has a custom feature that allows me to see the tops of my boots through the loading port about 60% of the time I pull the trigger. Neat feature.

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I paid almost $800 for Fisher bottom metal for a Mauser, but the rest of the rifle came at no additional charge…..


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Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Wow, old thread. Some of these guys are out of business, some fresh out of the clink, others have passed into the great machine shop in the sky.

As an aside, I bought a nice Model 70 a few months ago with PT&G Oberndorf bottom metal. It has a custom feature that allows me to see the tops of my boots through the loading port about 60% of the time I pull the trigger. Neat feature.
😂

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Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Wow, old thread. Some of these guys are out of business, some fresh out of the clink, others have passed into the great machine shop in the sky.

As an aside, I bought a nice Model 70 a few months ago with PT&G Oberndorf bottom metal. It has a custom feature that allows me to see the tops of my boots through the loading port about 60% of the time I pull the trigger. Neat feature.


That was funny….

I honestly haven’t had much of an issue with plain old Winchester BM. I just swapped my Mashburn to Featherweight BM and couldn’t be happier.

Mine doesn’t let me see my boots like yours, but it works okay…. I’m cheap I guess grin


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Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Wow, old thread. Some of these guys are out of business, some fresh out of the clink, others have passed into the great machine shop in the sky.

As an aside, I bought a nice Model 70 a few months ago with PT&G Oberndorf bottom metal. It has a custom feature that allows me to see the tops of my boots through the loading port about 60% of the time I pull the trigger. Neat feature.


That was funny….

I honestly haven’t had much of an issue with plain old Winchester BM. I just swapped my Mashburn to Featherweight BM and couldn’t be happier.

Mine doesn’t let me see my boots like yours, but it works okay…. I’m cheap I guess grin

All of my model 70's bottom metal works flawlessly. Speaking of going with fwt bm, thats exactly what I did with my pre 64 338wm. I was trying to keep weight down, and ended up at 7 pounds even. That includes scope mounts and rings.


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Your 338 is 7 flat with a scope BSA?


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Originally Posted by beretzs
Your 338 is 7 flat with a scope BSA?

Nope, with scope mounts. Running aluminum bottom metal helps lighten it a little. Plus the H&H receiver is slightly lighter than a standard receiver..
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

It was 7 3/4 pounds with the Swaro on top:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Now it is around 8 pounds all up with the Conquest on top. I prefer the Conquest over the Z3 Swaro. As for bottom metal, like I said, never have had an issue with any model 70 factory bottom metal. Especially the pre 64 models. I know there are guys that swear they have issues, but it always makes me wonder. I am known to tinker and fine tune my rifles though. I've ran into issues where the bottom metal may need to be glass bedded or a simple washer added as a shim. Whatever it takes to make it work and not cause issues. I don't think a pricey aftermarket bm is really worth it, unless it's a full on CUSTOM. Some others may disagree. I will say this, like I have in the past many times before: I will not use a rifle that does not function 100%, 100% of the time.. Hint.. Oh, and you know me well enough by now that I don't even have to tell you how accurate it needs to be...


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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I gotcha! My Mashburn is 8lb's and a couple ounces with a 4.5x14 Meopta on top. We're in the same ballpark.

And yeah, the Featherweight metal doesn't bother me a bit..


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So, these fancy bottom plates don't scratch when you lay the rifle on the top wire of a barbed-wire fence when stepping over? Damn, when I could have just used a leather glove instead.


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edmhunter.i have seen your rifle and sen the specs you gave on this site.the man who built it is as good as any winchester gunsmith alive,equal to d,arcy echols and gene simillion in any machining or metalwork.also a better chanberer than either.mark is phenominal and at a lesser price point.williams bottom metal and magazines are excellent.functionality and reliability excellent.i have 2 of marks rifles,one chambered in 300 win mag,the only 300 magnum you would ever need.the other in 375 h&h,both reliable in any condition upside down or sideways.both shoot half inch 5 shot groups with best loads.you own a lifetime firearm,enjoy and great hunting.i have taken game from brown bear to whitetail and many game in between.enjoy your penrod masterpiece.

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Originally Posted by beretzs
I gotcha! My Mashburn is 8lb's and a couple ounces with a 4.5x14 Meopta on top. We're in the same ballpark.

And yeah, the Featherweight metal doesn't bother me a bit..

Yep, right in there. Good weight for that class of rifle. The stock ergo's make all the difference in the world when it comes to mitigating recoil on a non braked magnum rifle. The bottom metal hasn't fallen off during recoil anyways. grin


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Lots of interesting opinions on this thread. All I can add is that the Jerry Fisher/Blackburn rounded bottom metal on my 30-06 makes it noticibly more comfortable to carry all day .


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I like a steel unit on a hunting rifle. I've had two pot-metal units break on me. A Williams unit is a nice (and worthwhile) upgrade on a 700. Unfortunately, I hear Williams is out of business now.
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I also have broken a few aluminum trigger guards and am Old enough th to remember the sales hype of aluminum.
Somewhere I still have an aluminum bottom metal from an old Holland &Holland 375 .


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www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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Originally Posted by RGK
I like a steel unit on a hunting rifle. I've had two pot-metal units break on me.


What are the details of these two 700 pot-metal units breaking?

I've never had a problem with a properly bedded factory 700 bottom and have never considered replacing them on a Lego Gun custom. Maybe I need to look at other options.

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Originally Posted by SuperCub
Originally Posted by RGK
I like a steel unit on a hunting rifle. I've had two pot-metal units break on me.


What are the details of these two 700 pot-metal units breaking?

I've never had a problem with a properly bedded factory 700 bottom and have never considered replacing them on a Lego Gun custom. Maybe I need to look at other options.


One unit was from a Carl Gustav / Husqvarna .30-06 that broke off at the rear guard screw hole. I had Blackburn make me a whole new steel floorplate/triggerguard assembly. The 700 unit broke off the little extension that holds the floorplate closed. I replaced it with a Williams (see above). Steel is usually the way to go. Next one I'll buy is a Sunny Hill, but they're MUCHO expensive. PT&G doesn't seem to have a great rep for quality.

To me, a steel unit is a very nice and worthwhile upgrade.
Bob

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Originally Posted by RGK
One unit was from a Carl Gustav / Husqvarna .30-06 that broke off at the rear guard screw hole. I had Blackburn make me a whole new steel floorplate/triggerguard assembly. The 700 unit broke off the little extension that holds the floorplate closed. I replaced it with a Williams (see above). Steel is usually the way to go. Next one I'll buy is a Sunny Hill, but they're MUCHO expensive. PT&G doesn't seem to have a great rep for quality.

To me, a steel unit is a very nice and worthwhile upgrade.
Bob


Thanks. For me, the type of FP depends on what type of rifle I want. A lot of 700s are built into a lightweight and thus an aluminum bottom works well enough but I can see how a forged steel bottom would be stronger if weight isn't a concern.

I bought a hinged '09 bottom for a 275 Rigby I had made up. Not lightweight, but well suited for the rifle.

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Originally Posted by 458Win
I also have broken a few aluminum trigger guards and am Old enough th to remember the sales hype of aluminum.
Somewhere I still have an aluminum bottom metal from an old Holland &Holland 375 .


My C&H 404J on a P14 action has the same “Durallium” floorplate. I have copies of the H&H advertisements stating it was an advantage!

Mine looks like hell from use!

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The loss of Williams products stinks for those not interested in blued steel and termite food rifles.

Which bottom metal maker just got out of the Klink?

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Then, we have the old boomer age Luddite like meself, sold the pre 64 Model 70 factory stocks with bottom metal, whittled out a blind magazine stock similar to the 670. Why did I need ice cold noisy bottom metal, why did I need a hinged floorplate that I NEVER used? Going one step further, I eventually got rid of any form of recoil pad or plate, long known in the muzzleloading trade as a 'poor boy'. Maybe so, but 100% functional with discrete horizontal lines to hold it on the shoulder while stroking the bolt. Hence, I have a couple unusual but not unsightly Mod 70 FWTs which are several ounces lighter than the originals. Slender stocks with understated schnabels are not just for looks...form follows function.


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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